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School Reform: Thoughts?

Started by Karen Richardson3 · · 👁 89 views · 1.7K replies

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Participants Karen Richardson3rowdypanther12urbantinker8Charles Murphy6wanderinggardener12Arthur Hernandez6brightheron64Terry Cooper69jadetinker85Rachel Jones8David Palmer5Benjamin Wilson4analogseal18silentraven6Jason MorganAngela Wright4Susan Jamesnimblelynx7David Jackson2Chloe Roberts2Jonathan Ortiz2Emily Gonzalez51Brandon Brooks11Susan Nguyen54 …
nimblelynx7 nimblelynx7 Regular
336 messages
joined Jul 2016
#901 ·
Michelle Nelson4 said:I honestly think we should implement a standardized set of uniform exams at the end of every grade level for all students. We could use those scores as the primary metric for high school admissions. Plus, let's be real—we should publish the results by school and even by teacher. It’s about time we actually see who is truly pulling their weight and delivering quality education versus who isn't. If we made these results public for a few years, I’m convinced it would finally spark a much-needed conversation about merit-based evaluation instead of just focusing on seniority and tenure.

Take the recent data from Lincoln High, for example. Out of four different fourth-grade classes, five students from one single class hit the top 10% bracket, while the other two classes only had one student each make the cut, and one class didn't have anyone in the top tier at all. It's the exact same school with the exact same demographic of parents... so how is it possible that the kids in that one specific classroom are thinking so critically and solving problems so effectively while everyone else is lagging so far behind?

I'm convinced those kids just colluded. They're doing it on purpose just to screw over the teacher. How does that have anything to do with the quality of instruction?

Sarah Hall53 said:And honestly, it’s the only way it makes any sense at all.

I don't have an issue with it, provided teachers believe it's fair. If they do, fine. But honestly? Most teachers would probably rather go work in a coal mine; it's a lower-risk job. In the end, people will just say, "Let's Baptize the teachers' duties, since the Turk parent provided them."🐔
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#902 ·
I guess I should probably start by saying that I don't really have a strong opinion on this, though I suppose I could try to find one if it helps the conversation move along, which maybe it won't. It feels like we’re all just circling the same drain, isn't it? I was thinking about it earlier—well, more like staring at a blank screen while my coffee went cold—and I realized how much we tend to overcomplicate things when the answer is usually right there, buried under all the noise. It’s a bit like trying to read a book in a crowded subway station during rush hour; you know the words are there somewhere, but there's just too much going on around you to actually focus. Anyway, I don't mean to ramble, but I think there's something worth noting here about how we approach these discussions in general. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious, or perhaps I'm just tired, but I suspect we could all stand to slow down a little bit.
nimblelynx7 I guess I should probably mention that...
So, let me guess—when the national standardized test scores come in looking pretty rough, we’re just supposed to point the finger at the students?
This might sound a bit paradoxical, I suppose, but there’s just something about the way DM handles things that feels... I don't know, slightly unrealistic to me. These results seem almost too good to be true, I guess. Maybe I'm just being overly cautious, but there’s something about how everything is lining up that feels a bit surreal, if you know what I mean. It's one of those situations where you find yourself squinting at the data, wondering if you missed a decimal point somewhere or if the stars just happened to align perfectly for once. I don't want to sound cynical, because I really don't, but when things look this polished, a part of me always waits for the other shoe to drop. It’s just an odd feeling, I suppose..😉
wanderingbadger44 said:What’s actually wrong with the SATs? Aside from students getting decent scores? Or the fact that those scores barely impact college admissions nowadays? (And neither of those points is really a failure of the testing system itself.)

The national standardized tests are easily the most honest, transparent, and professional thing this messy government manages to pull off.

Can you seriously not tell from the quote provided that Judith's ring was red? Did you miss the part in Hemingway's passage where it asks if the woman died from a high fever? Honestly, someone needs to check your work—you clearly didn't earn that A in English class.

I suppose you could argue that the DM was originally conceived as the most honest and unbiased way to handle grading, though I guess there’s always room for debate on how much objectivity actually exists in any system.
But then again, I suppose she failed on quite a few different levels, if you really think about it.
I guess I was just sitting here wondering about what the actual cutoff is for passing... you know, that specific percentage you need to hit to actually clear the hurdle. It’s funny how much weight those numbers carry, isn't it? One minute you're cruising along, and the next you're staring at a grade and trying to figure out if you actually made the cut or if you're just hovering in that gray area. I suppose it really depends on the specific course or whatever institution you're dealing with, but I was just thinking about that threshold.🤦
I’ve been looking over some of the exam questions from my courses at both the undergraduate and graduate levels lately—honestly, they're just kind of ridiculous.🤦
I suppose there’s this strange, lingering sense of an imbalance between levels, if that makes any sense. It feels like things just aren't quite leveling out where they should be, though I might be overthinking it, or maybe I'm just seeing patterns where none exist. It’s hard to say, really. There's this gap, this sort of disproportionate spread between one tier and the next, and I can't help but wonder if it's intentional or just some byproduct of how everything is structured. It’s a bit unsettling, I guess, seeing that disparity sitting there, staring back at you.
I was looking back at some of the old data recently, and I couldn't help but notice this strange, nagging imbalance in how the difficulty of the tests seems to shift from one year to the next. It’s hard to pin down exactly why, but there's definitely a noticeable discrepancy in the weight and rigor of certain years compared to others, which feels a bit off, I guess. Maybe it’s just a fluke in the grading curves or perhaps the curriculum underwent some subtle shifts we didn't account for, but the inconsistency is certainly there if you look closely enough.
It’s funny how you occasionally stumble upon that strange sense of disproportion between certain related objects, I guess. You look at them side by side and there's just this inherent mismatch in scale or proportion that feels slightly off, though maybe it's just my own perception acting up. It's one of those subtle things that catches your eye when you aren't really looking for it, an imbalance that doesn't quite make sense given how they ought to relate to one another.
The whole setup—you know, the logistics, how everything is organized, and all those numbers floating around in the game... it’s quite a bit to wrap your head around, I guess. It feels like there's this massive, complex machinery running behind the scenes, almost like trying to map out the entire supply chain at a place like Amazon or managing the sheer scale of a FedEx operation, where every little moving part has to sync up perfectly just to keep things from falling apart. There’s a certain weight to the way the amounts are balanced, too, which makes you wonder if the developers spent more time on the spreadsheets than the actual gameplay, though maybe that's just my cynical take on it. It's a lot to process all at once, really.🤦
I suppose I’ve been thinking quite a bit lately about those little interrogative words—you know, the ones we use to build questions—and how they sort of act as the scaffolding for everything we try to figure out in a conversation. It’s funny, really, how much weight a single word like "who" or "why" carries when you're trying to peel back the layers of a situation, though I guess it’s easy to take them for granted since they're just such a fundamental part of how we navigate the world. There’s a certain rhythm to them, a way they prompt us to pause and consider things from a different angle, even if the answers don't always turn out to be what we were looking for in the first place. Maybe it's just me being overly analytical, but I find there's a quiet sort of complexity in the way these question-starters function, almost like they're setting the stage before the actual inquiry even begins.

And then, after everything that’s happened, I guess you could say that a DM isn't even the most important factor when it comes to getting into college.

I don’t know, I guess I just find the whole thing to be a bit of a farce, if I'm being honest.☕
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#903 ·
To me feels like such a farce—that you can get into Teachers College with just basic math on your high school exams.
I get it, teachers for the primary grades mostly cover addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. But personally, I’d expect someone responsible for laying the very foundation of our children's education to have absolutely crushed the advanced level of the math exam.
I don't know, maybe I just hold the teaching profession to a slightly higher standard. 🤔

Especially since the test questions tend to loop back to the same old stuff you just learn in class anyway. Honestly, I think it’s a bit of a shame that someone who actually wants to be a teacher is allowed to pass with just the basics.
It’s nothing.

And if I'm not totally off base here, any real reform should have started at the college level first.
If they could at least establish a solid foundation for new teachers—since it's pretty obvious that trying to change the veteran staff through reform, no matter how you do it, is going to be an uphill battle.
wanderingbadger44 wanderingbadger44 Active Member
215 messages
joined Feb 2023
#904 ·
Look, I honestly don't get why someone who's already crushed advanced calculus would even consider enrolling at Teachers College. You really have to think about it.

And just wait until you see the absolute chaos of who they’ll actually be hiring to teach computer science once it becomes a mandatory subject. 😬
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#905 ·
wanderingbadger44 said:Look, I honestly don't get why someone who's already crushed advanced calculus would even consider enrolling at Teachers College. You really have to think about it.

And just wait until you see the absolute chaos of who they’ll actually be hiring to teach computer science once it becomes a mandatory subject. 😬

I am honestly just sitting here, waiting for the inevitable fallout.
The very moment this was first brought up, I had this nagging feeling that the whole thing was basically doomed from the start.
And, I don't know, I guess I just don't quite grasp how the average person falls for these blatant political stunts that seem designed solely to score some cheap points with voters.

Where are the actual professionals???
Where is the hardware???

Even if they somehow managed to set aside significant funding to outfit schools—which, let's be honest, probably won't happen—who exactly do they think is going to step up to teach this from elementary school all the way through the end of high school?
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#906 ·
wanderingbadger44 said:Look, I honestly don't get why someone who's already crushed advanced calculus would even consider enrolling at Teachers College. You really have to think about it.

And just wait until you see the absolute chaos of who they’ll actually be hiring to teach computer science once it becomes a mandatory subject. 😬

It’s not like they have to be geniuses, and not everyone who nails advanced math chooses to go into liberal arts or pure sciences (by the way, you need advanced math for psychology too).

I’m not expecting a perfect score on the SAT or anything, but if someone wants to become a teacher—someone whose whole job is laying the educational foundation for kids—and they choose the easier math track, I think that’s a real disservice to the teaching profession.

Computer science will probably end up being taught by theology majors with a minor in IT. 🥳 🙂
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#907 ·
Susan James said:It’s not like they have to be geniuses, and not everyone who nails advanced math chooses to go into liberal arts or pure sciences (by the way, you need advanced math for psychology too).

I’m not expecting a perfect score on the SAT or anything, but if someone wants to become a teacher—someone whose whole job is laying the educational foundation for kids—and they choose the easier math track, I think that’s a real disservice to the teaching profession.

Computer science will probably end up being taught by theology majors with a minor in IT. 🥳 🙂

Not really.
I mean, I suspect the baseline requirement will probably just be knowing how to turn on a laptop and browse the web, mostly because finding anyone truly qualified who actually wants to apply for these positions seems unlikely.🕺

Actually, this feels like a bit of an open invitation to all those people constantly criticizing the school system—why not just put your names in for these openings and actually contribute something useful to the curriculum reform?😍
The pay is supposedly great, and the benefits are even better, so...👍
I don't know, who could possibly say no to that?🙂
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#908 ·
urbantinker8 said:Not really.
I mean, I suspect the baseline requirement will probably just be knowing how to turn on a laptop and browse the web, mostly because finding anyone truly qualified who actually wants to apply for these positions seems unlikely.🕺

Actually, this feels like a bit of an open invitation to all those people constantly criticizing the school system—why not just put your names in for these openings and actually contribute something useful to the curriculum reform?😍
The pay is supposedly great, and the benefits are even better, so...👍
I don't know, who could possibly say no to that?🙂

You've got a point there. They won't even need an advanced computer science program; a theology major who knows how to boot up a laptop should be more than enough.🍿
wanderingbadger44 wanderingbadger44 Active Member
215 messages
joined Feb 2023
#909 ·
Susan James said:It’s not like they have to be geniuses, and not everyone who nails advanced math chooses to go into liberal arts or pure sciences (by the way, you need advanced math for psychology too).

I’m not expecting a perfect score on the SAT or anything, but if someone wants to become a teacher—someone whose whole job is laying the educational foundation for kids—and they choose the easier math track, I think that’s a real disservice to the teaching profession.

Computer science will probably end up being taught by theology majors with a minor in IT. 🥳 🙂

My main point was that anyone with enough academic leverage to actually make a choice—those with high enough test scores to aim higher—tends to steer clear of the public school system or social work, instead opting to engage in endless debates with the John Does of the world who think they're experts on everything.

It's a textbook case of negative selection.
restlessskipper8 restlessskipper8 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Mar 2015
#910 ·
wanderingbadger44 said:My main point was that anyone with enough academic leverage to actually make a choice—those with high enough test scores to aim higher—tends to steer clear of the public school system or social work, instead opting to engage in endless debates with the John Does of the world who think they're experts on everything.

It's a textbook case of negative selection.

It’s the honest truth. If teaching actually paid a decent wage, I’d be the first one through the door. It’s been my dream since forever—I was always that straight-A student, no matter what subject I was tackling—but between the actual paycheck and, even worse, the way society looks down on educators these days... it’s just brutal. Honestly, looking at the math, I can't see myself making a life out of that...

Back at my university, the education major was basically the consolation prize for anyone who didn't make the cut for the engineering programs. It wasn't exactly a destination for people chasing a dream; it was more like where you ended up when your first choices fell through. I think in my entire graduating class, there was maybe one single soul who actually chose that path because they were genuinely passionate about it. Everyone else was just sort of... drifting into it by default. And now, those same people are out there teaching in public school districts all over the country...
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#911 ·
Sarah Hall53 said:The thing is—and this is kind of depressing—grades end up looking pretty much the same across all subjects because they use a bell curve distribution. They just decide what percentage of correct answers qualifies for an A or a B, and that's it. It feels a little hollow if you ask me.

Another issue—and I hear this from teachers all the time—is that these standardized state exams basically train kids to only care about what’s on the test. My colleagues tell me that whenever they try to branch out with a cool topic or dive deeper into something actually relevant to a student's life, the first thing they get asked is, "Is this going to be on the exam?" If the answer is no, they just check out. They're physically there, but mentally, they've already left the room.

Thirdly, who’s actually against having smaller entrance exams for high school? Usually, it’s the psychologists and educators—they call them "high-stakes testing" and claim it’s "too much stress for the kids" and all that.
But look, we had external evaluations started about ten years ago before they were scrapped. Supposedly, it was because those tests clearly showed the massive gap in results based on how much money a family had or how much a specific school district invested in its facilities. Nobody really wanted that kind of inequality being dragged into the light, I guess...

For real, my coworker tells me the exact same thing.
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#912 ·
Getting just 20% on your high school math finals is all you need to scrape by with a passing grade

It’s honestly pathetic
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#913 ·
wanderingbadger44 said:My main point was that anyone with enough academic leverage to actually make a choice—those with high enough test scores to aim higher—tends to steer clear of the public school system or social work, instead opting to engage in endless debates with the John Does of the world who think they're experts on everything.

It's a textbook case of negative selection.

I hear what you're saying, but there really needs to be some kind of baseline requirement for college admissions.
Even if there's a risk that nobody qualifies because they don't meet the standard, I still feel like elementary school teachers shouldn't be people who didn't pass advanced math in high school. These are the folks responsible for setting the mathematical foundation for a student's entire life 😕 over four years of intensive study 🥳)

Some of these degree programs just seem to exist for the sake of existing.

Larry Walker24 said:Getting just 20% on your high school math finals is all you need to scrape by with a passing grade

It’s honestly pathetic

That isn't just sad; it's downright terrible.
Especially when you consider how much weight those test scores carry for getting into any university.
Sarah Hall53 Sarah Hall53 Regular
462 messages
joined Oct 2021
#914 ·
And if you throw in what the math professors always seem to overlook—that this kind of stuff is basically just material from elementary 😢school
.
Michael Nguyen2 Michael Nguyen2 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Dec 2017
#915 ·
Larry Walker24 said:Getting just 20% on your high school math finals is all you need to scrape by with a passing grade

It’s honestly pathetic

Susan James said:I hear what you're saying, but there really needs to be some kind of baseline requirement for college admissions.
Even if there's a risk that nobody qualifies because they don't meet the standard, I still feel like elementary school teachers shouldn't be people who didn't pass advanced math in high school. These are the folks responsible for setting the mathematical foundation for a student's entire life 😕 over four years of intensive study 🥳)

Some of these degree programs just seem to exist for the sake of existing.

That isn't just sad; it's downright terrible.
Especially when you consider how much weight those test scores carry for getting into any university.

I agree with manchild, it’s pathetic. What’s horrific is that you can basically pass (at least the basic level) just by knowing which buttons to mash on a calculator. 🙄

I took my SATs less than five years ago, so... yeah...🤣

For the first 20 questions, the prompt even explicitly states: "Using a handheld calculator... calculate...", because they’re designed to eat up time and test your ability to navigate a scientific calculator—like figuring out how to input a mixed fraction with some random variable. If you tried to do them by hand, even the top students would run out of time, and they’d still have plenty of actual knowledge-based questions left to tackle.

The absolute worst part is that someone actually decided this was an acceptable way to pass.
By the way, a girl in my class failed because she couldn't figure out how to press the buttons. Not exaggerating. She just didn't care.

And the kicker is that some universities don't even look at certain mandatory subjects for admission; as long as you don't fail pro forma, you're in.
Oh, and what about the fact that the geography and chemistry exams are harder than these mandatory three? Is that considered extraterrestrial horror? 🙄 Honestly, the electives are more realistically constructed than these two SAT farces.

The SAT was originally intended—at least behind closed doors—to measure the success of high school education (or so I was told. If they’re lying to me, I’m lying too. Don't blame me.), and then colleges hijacked it.
So, the SAT essentially replaced entrance exams.
At Johns Hopkins, thank God, they only did it for one year before they realized how flawed it was😁.

Quincy already touched on this, but the SAT really serves no purpose.
Want to go from vocational school to a university? Take an entrance exam.
Why is it mandatory for prep school kids? Want to go to college? Take an entrance exam.
Because, as I mentioned earlier, a huge number of universities don't even weigh any of those three core subjects.

Based on current logic, it isn't even controversial within the system that a teacher wouldn't have taken advanced math. A student heading to MIT wouldn't need advanced English. In fact, MIT doesn't even care about English grades.

Therefore, an MIT student doesn't need to know philosophy, nor does a teacher need to know calculus.

And so, every generation will take these tests not to prove they learned anything, but just to pass. It's just one more link in a 12-year chain of nonsense before they finally reach college and deal with things they actually care about.

We really ought to implement a standardized high school equivalency level, just like people have been suggesting for a while now. It’s pretty simple: you either have the credentials, or you don't.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#916 ·
Everything checks out.
Which is why I keep saying this whole thing is just a run-of-the-mill—albeit pricey—farce.
It’s not that I have anything against getting an outside perspective or some third-party evaluation.
But I really can't get behind this kind of tragicomedy that the entire situation has devolved into.☕
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#917 ·
but even high school graduation isn't a level playing field because not every school has the same standards

and since everyone was complaining about the honors student flood, MIT fixed the whole mess by adding entrance exams; the results? A total disaster
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#918 ·
Larry Walker24 said:but even high school graduation isn't a level playing field because not every school has the same standards

and since everyone was complaining about the honors student flood, MIT fixed the whole mess by adding entrance exams; the results? A total disaster

and I suppose it’s pretty much the same deal here.
it seems like whenever things go sideways, the media just frames it so that either the teachers are entirely to blame or they get all the credit for the results, and that’s basically how it ends.🙄
analogseal18 analogseal18 Active Member
75 messages
joined Nov 2018
#919 ·
I find it utterly preposterous that university admissions processes remain so heavily tethered to GPA percentages, placing such an overwhelming weight on mere numbers rather than actual capability.
Consider, if you will, two high school graduates who both boast an identical 3.5 GPA; let us say they both set their sights on a business program at a major state university. One might have spent their evenings completing a vocational certification for administrative management, while the other focused entirely on technical mechanics—yet, despite having the exact same points on paper from their high school transcripts, the chasm between their actual functional knowledge is vast, wouldn't you agree?
Michelle Nelson4 Michelle Nelson4 Regular
544 messages
joined Jan 2024
#920 ·
I honestly think that high school math level is more than enough for an administrative role at the USSF, especially given how their specific curriculum is structured.

If someone didn't have a great foundation back in high school, they could easily get caught up in about six months if they have a bit of a knack for numbers and find themselves with a solid professor. Personally, I’d say let them enroll in whatever college degree they're interested in first; after that first year, it becomes pretty obvious who has the aptitude and who doesn't. Plus, with the rise of online lectures and digital exams, reaching those milestones could happen so much faster. Once they pass that initial hurdle, they could move straight into practical training during their second year. This would solve so many headaches regarding high school graduation gaps, entrance exams, and inconsistent grading standards. Though, I have my doubts that anything like this will ever actually catch on in our incredibly rigid and outdated higher education system, particularly when it comes to state-funded institutions...

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