School Reform: Thoughts?
Started by Karen Richardson3 · · 👁 62 views · 1.7K replies
Participants
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#1082 ·
Sarah Hall53 said:People always assume the school secretary is just the principal's right-hand person—you know, the one handling schedules and coffee runs—but that’s not really it at all. In reality, they're more like a legal compliance officer tasked with making sure everything the school does stays strictly within the bounds of the law. Honestly, I've always felt like "secretary" is a pretty misleading title for what they actually do... it just doesn't capture the legal weight of the job.
That is precisely my point.
In other public institutions, secretaries work alongside financial analysts to develop grant proposals for federal funding. Since schools are essentially municipal entities, the administration should ideally be staffed by economic experts who collaborate with these legal-minded secretaries to draft such projects. In certain districts, this actually happens.
#1083 ·
Michelle Nelson4 said:Well, even if it is their fault, people will just claim they only got the job because they're buddies with the right folks back home. 😉
In America, especially when you're dealing with government bureaucracy, there is nothing more unpopular than actually being successful. If you actually make progress, everyone else starts complaining that they're victims of the system and that nothing can ever change...
The general rule in this country? They'll forgive just about anything, except for someone actually winning.
#1084 ·
I just finished reading Glenn Greenwald’s latest column, and it really hit home. It reminded me so much of what some people have been saying right here on this thread—specifically regarding how ..that whole system basically sidelines kids who don't have a head start in life. Once they fall behind or mature a bit later than their peers, they get pushed onto a side track that’s incredibly hard to climb out of, making it nearly impossible to switch careers or even make it to college later on.
It’s definitely worth your time. 👍
It’s definitely worth your time. 👍
#1085 ·
Well written.
The difference between pros and cons really comes down to fundamental views on how life should be lived and how society should be organized.
The difference between pros and cons really comes down to fundamental views on how life should be lived and how society should be organized.
#1086 ·
Yeah. Honestly, one of the few silver linings left over from the old days is that we don't really have a rigid class system here. I didn't truly wrap my head around that until I spent some time in the Netherlands, which is definitely more class-conscious (though still nowhere near as intense as, say, the UK).
When people adopt that "mind your own business" or "don't rock the boat" attitude, they’re actually just widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots and helping build a class society.
When people adopt that "mind your own business" or "don't rock the boat" attitude, they’re actually just widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots and helping build a class society.
#1087 ·
All of you people championing this idea of the "well-rounded citizen"—who just happens to work in glassmaking, but spends their free time writing novels and studying ancient architecture across America—are indulging in some serious, over-the-top idealization.
The implication here is that glaziers all over the country are weeping into their pillows because some wicked female minister has crushed their hopes for academic pursuit and general culture; apparently, they’re all just itching to get home from their apprenticeships so they can hide away behind closed doors and devour history books until dawn.
Naturally, by using this kind of rhetoric, you all—Pavicic included—portray yourselves as somehow more refined and noble than those of us who view things through the lens of what is actually real and possible.
What do you actually know about the student population in those schools? Do you have even the slightest inkling of what a history class there looks like—or, frankly, what it used to look like?
In a community that fundamentally scorns knowledge, within an educational system that is failing across every single one of its components, all this whining about the plight of these poor glaziers is nothing more than complaining about bad music playing on the Titanic.
The implication here is that glaziers all over the country are weeping into their pillows because some wicked female minister has crushed their hopes for academic pursuit and general culture; apparently, they’re all just itching to get home from their apprenticeships so they can hide away behind closed doors and devour history books until dawn.
Naturally, by using this kind of rhetoric, you all—Pavicic included—portray yourselves as somehow more refined and noble than those of us who view things through the lens of what is actually real and possible.
What do you actually know about the student population in those schools? Do you have even the slightest inkling of what a history class there looks like—or, frankly, what it used to look like?
In a community that fundamentally scorns knowledge, within an educational system that is failing across every single one of its components, all this whining about the plight of these poor glaziers is nothing more than complaining about bad music playing on the Titanic.
#1088 ·
What's actually missing from those green tiles, and why exactly are the white ones considered better?
#1089 ·
It’ll probably be easier to see—plus, you won't have to deal with that messy black chalk everywhere.
I have to say, I'm pretty split on these two options—whether it's better to keep the history intact or just start fresh.
I have to say, I'm pretty split on these two options—whether it's better to keep the history intact or just start fresh.
#1090 ·
Nicholas King;71864895 said:Everyone advocating for this idea of a "well-rounded citizen"—someone who just happens to be a glassblower but writes novels and studies ancient architecture in America in their spare time—is over-idealizing reality.
That glassblower spent four years in middle school covering history and geography, plus two years on biology, chemistry, and physics. They study history in depth from prehistory all the way through WWII, touching on the Civil War. Is it really going to be such a massive tragedy that they didn't have to sit through another two years of specific subjects they might not even need?
It’s not about being idealistic. The kids enrolling in three-year vocational programs aren't necessarily avoiding academics; many end up there because it was the only option left. Options were limited because everyone tries to squeeze into prep schools—and even four-year vocational schools are treated like second-rate choices—simply because parents don't want their kids to enter "manual labor." That small minority who actually *wants* to go into a trade already has a foundation from middle school, and if they get interested later, they can always catch up.
/QUOTE]hiddendriver34 said:Yeah. Honestly, one of the few silver linings left over from the old days is that we don't really have a rigid class system here. I didn't truly wrap my head around that until I spent some time in the Netherlands, which is definitely more class-conscious (though still nowhere near as intense as, say, the UK).
When people adopt that "mind your own business" or "don't rock the boat" attitude, they’re actually just widening the gap between the haves and the have-nots and helping build a class society.
We’re all in the same boat here—the "it'll get better someday" class.
A glassblower could study history all the way to a PhD, and they'll still never rub elbows with the upper class, unless some billionaire needs a custom glass sculpture. And if that happens, sure, they'll probably debate the causes of WWI and its impact on WWII while they're at it.
#1091 ·
Paul Allen26 said:What's actually missing from those green tiles, and why exactly are the white ones considered better?
well, I guess...
firstly, things just look clearer on the white ones because those green tiles feel like they've been sitting around since the colonial era—all scratched up, greasy, and covered in lines.
secondly, considering those old chalkboards date back even further than that, they're just so incredibly gross; there's so much dust, hair, and grime embedded in them that just looking at one might give you contact dermatitis, and getting too close could probably trigger asthma.
thirdly, on a more personal note, I'd rather not have sandpaper for skin on my hands, so I suppose I'd prefer having a marker in my hand instead of dealing with chalk.🙂
but hey, I mean, I'll settle for the green ones if I absolutely have to, assuming we get some decent chalk and maybe upgrade to some modern chalkboards.🙏
and speaking of history and glassblowers, the Secretary of Education mentioned how much history matters to the glassblowing trade. okay, I can see her point to an extent, I suppose.
but then in the very next breath, she suggested that the history professors at that vocational school would have to drop general history entirely just so they could teach exclusively the history of glassblowing😲 🤣 🤦
yeah. that's clearly a matter of extreme life-and-death importance.
general history versus the history of glassblowing.🙂
so, that's the kind of "reform" she's talking about.🤦
#1092 ·
They won't get bogged down in specific war dates, but they’ll definitely realize that war is garbage. They'll see how people try to drag them into a new conflict under the guise of patriotism, when really, it's just a way for the ultra-rich to pad their bank accounts.
Wars start over territory and ego, but you feed those ideals to an unsuspecting public. The people die while the architects of the war cash in.
It's simple, really, but you have to give everyone a fair shot at realizing that war and aggression aren't the answer.
Education gives them that chance; whether they actually get it is up to them.
History is life's greatest teacher.
Biology helps you understand evolution.
And geography? That’s just to make you believe the world is flat.
Wars start over territory and ego, but you feed those ideals to an unsuspecting public. The people die while the architects of the war cash in.
It's simple, really, but you have to give everyone a fair shot at realizing that war and aggression aren't the answer.
Education gives them that chance; whether they actually get it is up to them.
History is life's greatest teacher.
Biology helps you understand evolution.
And geography? That’s just to make you believe the world is flat.
#1093 ·
I think you might have missed the real point of Smith's piece. It’s not really about some romanticized glassblower spending his nights lost in historical novels; it's about a worker who, in this new class-based society, is basically locked into the glassmaking trade for life, with zero doors left open for him to try anything else.
#1094 ·
I haven't actually sat down to read anything by Pavicic, if I'm being honest. I'm really just weighing in on that rather silly comment she made during her TV interview the other day.🤦
#1095 ·
If we actually want to give high school graduates a real shot at heading to college later on, then we need to make things happen like
- making evening high school programs free and accessible to absolutely everyone
- providing high-quality, state-funded digital learning materials organized by the government, rather than relying on companies like Microsoft or various independent enthusiasts (who, let’s be honest, have probably just found a clever way to turn a profit off the situation)
- establishing federal student grants that cover basic living expenses for former graduates who are likely no longer living under their parents' roof. Since they've already entered the workforce once, it shouldn't be a tax burden on their families to support them—which really highlights how unfair the current system feels
Without those changes, whether they finished with history or geography in hand, 99% of former graduates and retail workers simply won't be able to pursue higher education
- making evening high school programs free and accessible to absolutely everyone
- providing high-quality, state-funded digital learning materials organized by the government, rather than relying on companies like Microsoft or various independent enthusiasts (who, let’s be honest, have probably just found a clever way to turn a profit off the situation)
- establishing federal student grants that cover basic living expenses for former graduates who are likely no longer living under their parents' roof. Since they've already entered the workforce once, it shouldn't be a tax burden on their families to support them—which really highlights how unfair the current system feels
Without those changes, whether they finished with history or geography in hand, 99% of former graduates and retail workers simply won't be able to pursue higher education
#1096 ·
I actually know a guy who went to his old local middle school back in the day...
He finished elementary school with pretty mediocre grades—nothing special, just average—but he was never a troublemaker or anything like that, just a quiet kid.
Then he gets into high school and, man, what a turnaround... it’s like a total transformation because suddenly he’s pulling straight A's everywhere.
Finished freshman year with top marks, and then kept that momentum going through all the other years too.
He was even doing stuff like competing in geography bees, attending some regional seminars, and even getting into those computer science meets...
And naturally, a student like that would want to go straight into a four-year university program, but it’s just not an option for him right now. He doesn't have that path available... instead, he'll have to enroll in some community college program where he can take a lighter course load while simultaneously grinding to prepare for his SATs...
He finished elementary school with pretty mediocre grades—nothing special, just average—but he was never a troublemaker or anything like that, just a quiet kid.
Then he gets into high school and, man, what a turnaround... it’s like a total transformation because suddenly he’s pulling straight A's everywhere.
Finished freshman year with top marks, and then kept that momentum going through all the other years too.
He was even doing stuff like competing in geography bees, attending some regional seminars, and even getting into those computer science meets...
And naturally, a student like that would want to go straight into a four-year university program, but it’s just not an option for him right now. He doesn't have that path available... instead, he'll have to enroll in some community college program where he can take a lighter course load while simultaneously grinding to prepare for his SATs...
#1097 ·
Sure, if they wanted to, there could be plenty of ways to support someone looking to level up their education. But right now? They’ve basically slammed the door shut on them.
I don't know the exact stats on how many tradespeople actually went to college (probably next to none), but I do know way more than 1% of them used to take an extra year of vocational school after finishing their initial three-year program. Now, that path is totally blocked.
Besides, I think that whole "Why would a glassblower care about history?" line is just incredibly condescending and snobbish. Look, his job is to cut glass and do it well. Honestly, the less time he spends filling his head with stuff he doesn't need for the workshop, the better.
I don't know the exact stats on how many tradespeople actually went to college (probably next to none), but I do know way more than 1% of them used to take an extra year of vocational school after finishing their initial three-year program. Now, that path is totally blocked.
Besides, I think that whole "Why would a glassblower care about history?" line is just incredibly condescending and snobbish. Look, his job is to cut glass and do it well. Honestly, the less time he spends filling his head with stuff he doesn't need for the workshop, the better.
#1098 ·
urbantinker8 said:I haven't actually sat down to read anything by Pavicic, if I'm being honest. I'm really just weighing in on that rather silly comment she made during her TV interview the other day.🤦
Whose, and which one exactly?
#1099 ·
I’m not really sitting here wondering what the future holds for glassmaking as an industry, but I suspect most kids currently enrolled in vocational high schools aren't particularly concerned with it either. If they actually cared about the history or the deeper context of their craft, they would have shown some interest back in middle school and opted for a different specialized academy altogether.
First off, we need to distinguish between whether these students are genuinely interested or not. Because let’s be honest—if they *are* interested, there are countless ways to master the trade without needing a formal diploma to get started.
If they aren't interested, why on earth are we forcing every single fifteen-year-old to make this impossible choice? It shouldn't feel like they have to decide between studying history or risking being stuck without a high school diploma entirely.
Continuing their education later is definitely an option through evening programs, and it should be available to anyone who has to step away from traditional schooling for any reason. My only gripe is that these programs shouldn't cost a fortune. It’s simply not true that they lose their shot at a degree; it just becomes a bit more demanding because of the credit requirements and catching up on missed coursework. Honestly, what’s stopping our standard high schools from letting students who missed certain classes make up those credits through a single intensive course or perhaps by adding one extra semester to their regular schedule?
First off, we need to distinguish between whether these students are genuinely interested or not. Because let’s be honest—if they *are* interested, there are countless ways to master the trade without needing a formal diploma to get started.
If they aren't interested, why on earth are we forcing every single fifteen-year-old to make this impossible choice? It shouldn't feel like they have to decide between studying history or risking being stuck without a high school diploma entirely.
Continuing their education later is definitely an option through evening programs, and it should be available to anyone who has to step away from traditional schooling for any reason. My only gripe is that these programs shouldn't cost a fortune. It’s simply not true that they lose their shot at a degree; it just becomes a bit more demanding because of the credit requirements and catching up on missed coursework. Honestly, what’s stopping our standard high schools from letting students who missed certain classes make up those credits through a single intensive course or perhaps by adding one extra semester to their regular schedule?
#1100 ·
What exactly is missing here—is it finishing out a fourth year of high school, or perhaps picking up some supplemental credits through an evening program?
Maybe they need Love, but honestly, kids who aren't bogged down by heavy academic workloads can easily manage both work and paying for their own night classes; in fact, most of those who have any real ambition end up doing just that.
As for those who genuinely believe a testosterone-fueled jock is suddenly going to master history and biology simply because we slot them into a schedule—I am begging you, please, share your method for achieving such a miracle? I am looking for a way to guide a valedictorian-level student who chooses to study only what she deems necessary and interesting.
Maybe they need Love, but honestly, kids who aren't bogged down by heavy academic workloads can easily manage both work and paying for their own night classes; in fact, most of those who have any real ambition end up doing just that.
As for those who genuinely believe a testosterone-fueled jock is suddenly going to master history and biology simply because we slot them into a schedule—I am begging you, please, share your method for achieving such a miracle? I am looking for a way to guide a valedictorian-level student who chooses to study only what she deems necessary and interesting.
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