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School Reform: Thoughts?

Started by Karen Richardson3 · · 👁 54 views · 1.7K replies

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Participants Karen Richardson3rowdypanther12urbantinker8Charles Murphy6wanderinggardener12Arthur Hernandez6brightheron64Terry Cooper69jadetinker85Rachel Jones8David Palmer5Benjamin Wilson4analogseal18silentraven6Jason MorganAngela Wright4Susan Jamesnimblelynx7David Jackson2Chloe Roberts2Jonathan Ortiz2Emily Gonzalez51Brandon Brooks11Susan Nguyen54 …
Richard Booth7 Richard Booth7 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Dec 2018
#1141 ·
Discipline is something parents instill from day one. It all starts with them, really. They are the first and last line of defense, the ones ultimately responsible... As kids grow up and gradually enter various systems—preschool, public schools, guidance counselors, and so on—those institutions are supposed to build upon the foundation laid at home. They offer guidelines, suggestions, perhaps a bit of extra structure. But they can’t actually raise a child, nor can they attempt to re-educate them when the primary foundation is missing. These institutions participate in socialization and might flag certain issues, but they can't perform miracles, especially not if a parent is actively working to sabotage everything they try to do...
When things start going sideways, we really ought to hand those kids back to their parents to fix. If they want to draw pictures in preschool or elementary school instead of paying attention, let them take the kid back home. If they feel the curriculum isn't "engaging" enough or doesn't meet their specific standards, then fine—they should educate the child themselves, at home, at their own expense, putting in their own sweat equity, their own money, and their own precious time. If it's a particularly severe case and they truly can't handle it, there are specialized clinics and medical institutions that can step in. In most cases, though, none of that would even be necessary, because the bulk of the work could be handled by the people living under the same roof, provided they start early and realize that the consequences will eventually fall squarely on their shoulders. But in the way our system is set up here in America, everyone else carries the burden except for the actual parents. So, it goes like this: my kid gets hit with a backpack or a chair because some brat finds throwing things more entertaining than sitting still; then the entire class suffers because they can't listen to the lesson while that kid is busy playing; then there's me, having to leave work to pick up my injured child, taking them to a therapist just to help them cope with being a victim—which is practically the standard protocol in our schools nowadays—and then struggling through lessons on grammar, chemistry, or basic math that were never actually taught because someone else was too busy acting out... or paying for private tutors just to pass. And don't forget the teacher, who, instead of explaining science or math, has to spend their energy trying to manage a kid who’s throwing chalk or getting sent to the principal's office constantly. Then you have the school counselors, who, instead of focusing on students with actual learning disabilities, end up coddling the troublemaker. Not to mention the massive, immeasurable drain on resources from inspectors, state agencies, departments, and various clinics... It's endless. We report things to Child Protective Services, but isn't that what they are for? And what happens if the kid comes from a wealthy, well-to-do family? Sending them to a residential program is great, sure, but why shouldn't the parent have to pay for that unrefined brat's rehabilitation out of their own pocket?
What is the point of reporting uncooperative parents to CPS without any concrete mechanism to actually force them to deal with their own children? There are unfortunately plenty of other pathologies that CPS should be focusing on, rather than opening yet another file for some unruly kid...
wanderinghawk30 wanderinghawk30 Member
32 messages
joined Dec 2018
#1142 ·
Larry Walker24 and Richard Booth7 could have put it better.
Richard Booth7, I feel the exact same way as a parent. Kids who actually want to learn are being robbed of their education because this mandatory, one-size-fits-all schooling system makes it impossible.

Are they raising little delinquents at home? Then take your brat to school and deal with them yourself. Don't know how? Well, frankly, I don't give a damn! Figure it out! 😠 Does anyone bother to ask us how we’re supposed to manage when kids in standard classes can't learn basic life skills from PIP because the teachers are too busy babysitting monsters? No, nobody asks. Instead, the entire world—every professional and educator out there—has to be mobilized to deal with undisciplined idiots. All of society ends up following some useless, bullshit protocols just to clean up the mess left by people who didn't even learn basic common sense. And then, once they have kids of their own, they have no clue what to do with them (not that they’d know what to do with themselves).

Ugh... my blood pressure is hitting the ceiling now, and that's definitely not great for a high-risk pregnancy.

Anyway, (apologies to everyone here, but I’ll take a ban for swearing long before I’ll take an early trip to the delivery room), but seriously—eat shit, Department of Education!
Richard Booth7 Richard Booth7 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Dec 2018
#1143 ·
wanderinghawk30 said:Larry Walker24 and Richard Booth7 could have put it better.
Richard Booth7, I feel the exact same way as a parent. Kids who actually want to learn are being robbed of their education because this mandatory, one-size-fits-all schooling system makes it impossible.

Are they raising little delinquents at home? Then take your brat to school and deal with them yourself. Don't know how? Well, frankly, I don't give a damn! Figure it out! 😠 Does anyone bother to ask us how we’re supposed to manage when kids in standard classes can't learn basic life skills from PIP because the teachers are too busy babysitting monsters? No, nobody asks. Instead, the entire world—every professional and educator out there—has to be mobilized to deal with undisciplined idiots. All of society ends up following some useless, bullshit protocols just to clean up the mess left by people who didn't even learn basic common sense. And then, once they have kids of their own, they have no clue what to do with them (not that they’d know what to do with themselves).

Ugh... my blood pressure is hitting the ceiling now, and that's definitely not great for a high-risk pregnancy.

Anyway, (apologies to everyone here, but I’ll take a ban for swearing long before I’ll take an early trip to the delivery room), but seriously—eat shit, Department of Education!

Oh boy, this really isn't the time for these kinds of heavy topics, dear wanderinghawk30... :-)
We aren't ever going to see any meaningful progress here, no matter how long we wait for things to turn around... at this point, all we can do is try to navigate our way through this swamp without getting completely swallowed up.
Paul Allen26 Paul Allen26 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Oct 2018
#1144 ·
Does anyone here have kids currently enrolled in the School of Life who could give us some firsthand insight into how everything actually works? I feel like the media coverage doesn't really give much substance to go on. I'm also curious about the same thing regarding those mandatory computer science classes.
Joshua Hall4 Joshua Hall4 Member
38 messages
joined Dec 2011
#1145 ·
I’ve been looking over the statistics regarding last year's warnings, reprimands, and suspensions. Honestly, I have no idea what our specialized agencies are actually doing—not to mention the complete incompetence at the Department of Education. These numbers are absolutely staggering.
Sarah Hall53 Sarah Hall53 Regular
462 messages
joined Oct 2021
#1146 ·
You want to hear something truly ironic? A massive amount of this stuff just gets ignored or swept under the rug—mostly because nobody wants to give the people in charge a headache with extra paperwork, or because they’re terrified the school system will look bad.
But honestly, the Department of Education couldn't care less, since on paper, the numbers aren't moving.
With this new nightmare of a regulation—and I'm talking about a title that’s twenty-six words long—even the stats are going to tank. See, for every single behavioral issue, the teacher ends up stuck with six months of extra administrative work before and after class. So, the number of "disciplinary measures" will plummet, just like the number of failing grades will drop once they implement that after-school program meant to punish any "bad" teachers who dare to actually fail a student.
Larry Walker24 Larry Walker24 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2022
#1147 ·
Sarah Hall53 said:You want to hear something truly ironic? A massive amount of this stuff just gets ignored or swept under the rug—mostly because nobody wants to give the people in charge a headache with extra paperwork, or because they’re terrified the school system will look bad.
But honestly, the Department of Education couldn't care less, since on paper, the numbers aren't moving.
With this new nightmare of a regulation—and I'm talking about a title that’s twenty-six words long—even the stats are going to tank. See, for every single behavioral issue, the teacher ends up stuck with six months of extra administrative work before and after class. So, the number of "disciplinary measures" will plummet, just like the number of failing grades will drop once they implement that after-school program meant to punish any "bad" teachers who dare to actually fail a student.

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+ And let's not forget how they wipe all the disciplinary records clean at the start of every new school year, basically hitting a reset button so everything looks perfect again. 🤦🤦🤦🤦🤦 🤦
Sarah Hall53 Sarah Hall53 Regular
462 messages
joined Oct 2021
#1148 ·
Oh man, yeah—I almost totally forgot to mention this part... if some absolute disaster happens right at the end of May or June, nobody gives a single damn about dealing with all the paperwork for stuff that’s just going to be wiped from the books by September anyway.
Keith Barrett2 Keith Barrett2 Active Member
57 messages
joined Nov 2021
#1149 ·
Paul Allen26 said:Does anyone here have kids currently enrolled in the School of Life who could give us some firsthand insight into how everything actually works? I feel like the media coverage doesn't really give much substance to go on. I'm also curious about the same thing regarding those mandatory computer science classes.

Look, on the flip side, a buddy of mine has a little one in first grade
She’s telling me they’re spending the entire school year just grinding through printed letters—standard public schools usually cover cursive too—and apparently, they’ve only even touched about 6 or 7 letters so far.🤔
Math is moving at a snail's pace, so I guess they just watered down the curriculum or something.
Science seems to be following the usual routine, though.
They’ve got computer class and English.
As for those tablets everyone talks about? When I saw her last week, they hadn't even handed them out yet, so at least for now, the kid is actually working on basic handwriting skills.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1150 ·
Paul Allen26 said:Does anyone here have kids currently enrolled in the School of Life who could give us some firsthand insight into how everything actually works? I feel like the media coverage doesn't really give much substance to go on. I'm also curious about the same thing regarding those mandatory computer science classes.

It doesn't work at all, I suppose.😉
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#1151 ·
Keith Barrett2 said:Look, on the flip side, a buddy of mine has a little one in first grade
She’s telling me they’re spending the entire school year just grinding through printed letters—standard public schools usually cover cursive too—and apparently, they’ve only even touched about 6 or 7 letters so far.🤔
Math is moving at a snail's pace, so I guess they just watered down the curriculum or something.
Science seems to be following the usual routine, though.
They’ve got computer class and English.
As for those tablets everyone talks about? When I saw her last week, they hadn't even handed them out yet, so at least for now, the kid is actually working on basic handwriting skills.

Hold on a second. Just... wait.
I need to take a deep breath here.

So science follows the regular curriculum, but is the first-grade social studies textbook actually designed for reading? Because if it is, it feels like it's meant for advanced readers—kids who can read fluently and breeze through workbooks—not beginners. Or did they switch to a new textbook that’s mostly pictures?

Could you please double-check that? Because if it's like what I'm thinking, then this situation is honestly pretty terrible.
Also, my other question is: what happens to the kids who already learned how to read and write in preschool? I don't mean kids under intense parental pressure, but those who just had fun with it and picked it up naturally. There are plenty of them!

It’s wonderful when schools take them to museums (real ones, not some cheap virtual nonsense), host social workshops, or practice fine motor skills in creative ways—you have no idea how vital that is for brain development. It's great when they make posters, practice presentations, and do genuine collaborative learning in groups (not just moving desks around for show). But if they’re just using a watered-down or "adjusted" curriculum for the whole class🤣, then we’re basically just collectively boring these kids. If we throw tablets into the mix on top of that, we’ll end up living in Idiocracy in about four years.
Keith Barrett2 Keith Barrett2 Active Member
57 messages
joined Nov 2021
#1152 ·
They actually have these whole other sets of books specifically for the experimental track. If I’m reading this right—and I might be totally off, my brain is fried today—the bulk of the actual content is all digital. The physical books look way thinner because they hand out tablets so the kids can actually get to the stuff they need to see.

I’m guessing the digital stuff is mostly visual anyway, like, you don't even really have to sit there and grind through reading it—but hey, I haven't actually seen it myself, so take my word with a massive grain of salt.

Honestly, I was pretty floored when I heard they’re only teaching printed letters. Apparently, they've covered about a third less material than the standard curriculum. Like you were saying, some kids nail those printed letters before they even hit kindergarten, and then you've got the average kid who eventually gets it in school, whether they struggle through it or not.

To me, it feels like this program would be great for that 10% of kids dealing with different learning hurdles, but I just don't see how it's supposed to push the kids who are already doing fine or even excelling.😕
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#1153 ·
Keith Barrett2 said:They actually have these whole other sets of books specifically for the experimental track. If I’m reading this right—and I might be totally off, my brain is fried today—the bulk of the actual content is all digital. The physical books look way thinner because they hand out tablets so the kids can actually get to the stuff they need to see.

I’m guessing the digital stuff is mostly visual anyway, like, you don't even really have to sit there and grind through reading it—but hey, I haven't actually seen it myself, so take my word with a massive grain of salt.

Honestly, I was pretty floored when I heard they’re only teaching printed letters. Apparently, they've covered about a third less material than the standard curriculum. Like you were saying, some kids nail those printed letters before they even hit kindergarten, and then you've got the average kid who eventually gets it in school, whether they struggle through it or not.

To me, it feels like this program would be great for that 10% of kids dealing with different learning hurdles, but I just don't see how it's supposed to push the kids who are already doing fine or even excelling.😕

The program might actually work better if school started at age five instead of six (not to mention the delays, where some kids don't even start until they're eight). As it stands, it just feels like a modified, watered-down version of the curriculum.
I don't quite get why they're slowing down math. Kids coming out of high-quality preschool programs develop such strong pre-math skills, and even kids who just have plenty of unstructured playtime should be able to handle addition and subtraction up to 20 within nine months of schooling without any trouble.
Maybe what's missing is that one hour of practice they lost ten years ago? Nowadays, parents are hesitant to sign their kids up for after-school tutoring, so it feels like everything has to be done at home. I worry that what we're seeing is just a trend toward simplifying things and collectively lowering our standards.

Personally, I’d love to see schools focus more on socialization and collaborative learning—and I mean making that happen in real life, not just as a buzzword on paper. I think the academic side should stay rigorous, just integrated with more modern teaching methods.

Teaching cursive in second grade makes sense to me, but everything else feels like it's just diluting a solid curriculum, which isn't going to end well in the long run.
And honestly, if I had to choose between spending seven years practicing handwriting versus typing on a tablet for every subject, I’m picking handwriting every single time.
It's just better for brain development.
Sarah Hall53 Sarah Hall53 Regular
462 messages
joined Oct 2021
#1154 ·
I was thinking—and please, feel free to correct me if my colleagues over at the local elementary school know better—that maybe we should move handwriting lessons to second grade. That way, we could spend more actual time in first grade focusing on reading comprehension instead. I don't know why people act like losing one extra hour of instruction is such a massive deal, honestly. It’s just... it happens so often where kids master the physical mechanics of reading the words, but then they're just rushing through their handwriting, while actually grasping what they've read stays stuck somewhere in limbo. The kids who are naturally gifted tend to figure out comprehension on their own, but the ones who struggle? They don't. And once they fall behind, it starts a domino effect—they hit math word problems, then science in third grade, and everything just collapses like a house of cards because we didn't prioritize understanding the text back in first grade.
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#1155 ·
Sarah Hall53 said:I was thinking—and please, feel free to correct me if my colleagues over at the local elementary school know better—that maybe we should move handwriting lessons to second grade. That way, we could spend more actual time in first grade focusing on reading comprehension instead. I don't know why people act like losing one extra hour of instruction is such a massive deal, honestly. It’s just... it happens so often where kids master the physical mechanics of reading the words, but then they're just rushing through their handwriting, while actually grasping what they've read stays stuck somewhere in limbo. The kids who are naturally gifted tend to figure out comprehension on their own, but the ones who struggle? They don't. And once they fall behind, it starts a domino effect—they hit math word problems, then science in third grade, and everything just collapses like a house of cards because we didn't prioritize understanding the text back in first grade.



Yeah, that’s exactly why.
I actually remember when we didn't really start cursive until second grade, and then moved on to other scripts in third.
I recall some of us being totally confused—like, why do we have to learn print and cursive at the same time now? We transitioned to the standard alphabet much slower back then.

To my fellow elementary school teachers... do you remember if we learned cursive in first or second grade back when we were kids?

Unfortunately, there are certain groups of parents (and I've heard experts say this too) who argue against teaching cursive entirely, claiming it's useless since everyone uses keyboards nowadays.
But I truly believe we need to teach cursive. It's great for fine motor skills, and it's fantastic for brain development. Practicing it makes a lot of sense.
Robert Rodriguez9 Robert Rodriguez9 Active Member
173 messages
joined Sep 2018
#1156 ·
Susan James said:

Yeah, that’s exactly why.
I actually remember when we didn't really start cursive until second grade, and then moved on to other scripts in third.
I recall some of us being totally confused—like, why do we have to learn print and cursive at the same time now? We transitioned to the standard alphabet much slower back then.

To my fellow elementary school teachers... do you remember if we learned cursive in first or second grade back when we were kids?

Unfortunately, there are certain groups of parents (and I've heard experts say this too) who argue against teaching cursive entirely, claiming it's useless since everyone uses keyboards nowadays.
But I truly believe we need to teach cursive. It's great for fine motor skills, and it's fantastic for brain development. Practicing it makes a lot of sense.

I wouldn't say that. I'm pretty sure we did everything in 1st grade, and I'm certain Cyrillic was in 3rd.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1157 ·
Robert Rodriguez9 said:I wouldn't say that. I'm pretty sure we did everything in 1st grade, and I'm certain Cyrillic was in 3rd.

Well, we definitely covered them in first grade.
Cursive was more like a third-grade thing.

I feel like this whole curriculum adjustment thing has swung way too far in one direction. It’s almost like we’re treating kids as if they’re all below average when it comes to capability.
And I suppose everyone just shrugs their shoulders and accepts it because... well, it's the path of least resistance, I guess. It feels easier to teach less and go slower rather than teaching more at a faster pace, regardless of how difficult or necessary the material actually is.
It isn't going to lead to actual reading comprehension, goodness knows. If anything, it might do the opposite. We'll likely end up with third graders who can recognize printed letters but still struggle immensely with handwriting, and their fine motor skills will probably suffer too. Instead of moving forward, they'll spend most of third or maybe even fourth grade just trying to patch up the gaps from what they should have mastered back in first.
Susan James Susan James Veteran
1K messages
joined Jan 2023
#1158 ·
urbantinker8 said:Well, we definitely covered them in first grade.
Cursive was more like a third-grade thing.

I feel like this whole curriculum adjustment thing has swung way too far in one direction. It’s almost like we’re treating kids as if they’re all below average when it comes to capability.
And I suppose everyone just shrugs their shoulders and accepts it because... well, it's the path of least resistance, I guess. It feels easier to teach less and go slower rather than teaching more at a faster pace, regardless of how difficult or necessary the material actually is.
It isn't going to lead to actual reading comprehension, goodness knows. If anything, it might do the opposite. We'll likely end up with third graders who can recognize printed letters but still struggle immensely with handwriting, and their fine motor skills will probably suffer too. Instead of moving forward, they'll spend most of third or maybe even fourth grade just trying to patch up the gaps from what they should have mastered back in first.

Not everyone is going to just roll over and accept this.
I certainly won't.
I can see how much my child is slowing down with this kind of material, even though she isn't in one of those "reform" schools (even though they love to brag about being "innovative" 🙄)
I see how much it messes with her concentration; she’s constantly buzzing around or drawing comics even when they're supposed to be learning new things, mostly because she knows she can just catch up whenever she wants (usually right when the teacher calls on her because she hasn't been paying attention for the last ten minutes).
Don't even get me started on work habits.

That style of reform would only make sense if school started earlier than it does now.
Actually, it would make a lot of sense then, because it could include children who didn't go through a high-quality preschool program, kids who didn't get the chance to practice tying laces or developing fine motor skills, or children with speech delays that weren't caught or addressed during their preschool years.

There are critical windows for certain developmental milestones. Just like kids need to crawl, walk, and talk by a certain age, they also need to develop their fine motor skills.
Starting at 8 years old (especially with the delayed start) is way too late. Even if they spend a huge chunk of first grade just coloring—which I honestly don't think a kid like mine would handle well after five years in preschool.
urbantinker8 urbantinker8 Regular
759 messages
joined Jan 2023
#1159 ·
Susan James said:Not everyone is going to just roll over and accept this.
I certainly won't.
I can see how much my child is slowing down with this kind of material, even though she isn't in one of those "reform" schools (even though they love to brag about being "innovative" 🙄)
I see how much it messes with her concentration; she’s constantly buzzing around or drawing comics even when they're supposed to be learning new things, mostly because she knows she can just catch up whenever she wants (usually right when the teacher calls on her because she hasn't been paying attention for the last ten minutes).
Don't even get me started on work habits.

That style of reform would only make sense if school started earlier than it does now.
Actually, it would make a lot of sense then, because it could include children who didn't go through a high-quality preschool program, kids who didn't get the chance to practice tying laces or developing fine motor skills, or children with speech delays that weren't caught or addressed during their preschool years.

There are critical windows for certain developmental milestones. Just like kids need to crawl, walk, and talk by a certain age, they also need to develop their fine motor skills.
Starting at 8 years old (especially with the delayed start) is way too late. Even if they spend a huge chunk of first grade just coloring—which I honestly don't think a kid like mine would handle well after five years in preschool.

well, I suspect the vast majority actually will.
I mean, people seem almost desperate for any kind of "reform," regardless of what it actually entails; as long as they can call it a "reform," I guess it doesn't really matter how it works.🙂

that sort of reform might actually make sense if school started earlier than it does now.
Actually, I suppose it makes quite a bit of sense, because it could potentially catch kids who didn't get a solid preschool program, or those who never really learned how to tie their shoes or practice basic motor skills, or even children with speech impediments that went unnoticed during their preschool years and weren't addressed.

but, you see, I don't really view that as a positive thing.
If the preschool programs in our daycare centers aren't doing enough to teach things like fine motor skills or tying laces, then I guess that’s something that needs to be handled at home or through some other way—like workshops or playgroups—because that window for learning those basics is precisely during the preschool years, not when they hit first or second grade in elementary school.
And if a kid has speech issues, they should go to a speech therapist—whether that's through a public clinic or private practice, it shouldn't really matter.
The same goes for cognitive, emotional, or social challenges; there are specialists out there specifically for that.
What a real reform should probably focus on is improving the logistics and the coordination between all those different specialists who work with students needing extra help, but I don't think that should happen within the classroom or as part of standard instruction.
It seems, to me, like a big mistake to lump everything together under the guise of "our reform will fix everything," which just ends up repeatedly neglecting the average or even high-achieving students who aren't facing any of these struggles.
A gifted student might find themselves stuck in a situation as early as first grade where their entire academic progress for the first four years is basically limited to just learning how to write letters.
To my mind, that's a perfect example of a poorly conceived "reform." It creates a school designed for the path of least resistance, rather than a school designed to prepare kids for life.
Sarah Hall53 Sarah Hall53 Regular
462 messages
joined Oct 2021
#1160 ·
I’m probably going to get shot down here, but honestly, it feels like Rhino, urbantinker8, and I are totally on the same page about this. 😂 A Christmas miracle? 🤔
I’ve been watching my little one—who, let's be real, isn't exactly struggling with school right now... if anything, the kid would practically die of boredom since they've only covered about seven letters so far!

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