School Reform: Thoughts?

Richard Perez3 said:Ugh, thanks a lot. 👍

If there’s one thing I seriously want to stay far away from, it’s those school reforms. 😁

It’s coming for you in two years, or three—it doesn't even matter once they hit fifth grade—because every new wave of incoming freshmen and fifth graders just keeps following the reformed curriculum, plus those kids who started the new system in fifth grade? They’re sticking with it through sixth too...
you can't run from it any more than you can run from your own mother; you can only really push the inevitable back by maybe three years at most.

Nicholas King said:I honestly don't see how the abstract concept of learning outcomes—which, by the way, isn't some localized invention—has anything to do with whether or not I actually grasp the specifics of this particular reform.

What I’m laying out here isn't a matter of bias or personal prejudice; these are simply cold, hard facts, not subjective opinions.

Besides, here’s a little challenge for you all: this forum is absolutely crawling with educators—so why don't all those professionals whose knowledge assessments are subject to external oversight before they're even administered step up? I'd love to see them write down exactly how they define a grade given to a student in a clear and concrete way. Let’s just take a single grade like a "passing" mark, for instance.

Wait, what?

Richard Perez3, in about three years, everyone will be caught up in some massive "educational reform." 🙄
So he won't really feel the heat until his kid hits fifth grade.

Alright.
I mean, probably not, but I’m holding out hope that this is just more window dressing, just like everything else in this country.
Right?

Richard Perez3 said:Alright.
I mean, probably not, but I’m holding out hope that this is just more window dressing, just like everything else in this country.
Right?

Regrettably, I must concur.

To implement any meaningful reform, we would first need to conduct an exhaustive, side-by-side comparison with how things are done on the ground elsewhere—an exercise in due diligence that, quite frankly, will likely never happen. We are talking about massive structural shifts: overhauling the entire scheduling system, pouring a mountain of capital into physical infrastructure and updated equipment, and finally exploring the feasibility of one-way instructional models. It’s a monumental undertaking, really.
It seems to me that if we are actually serious about a meaningful overhaul of our education system, we aren't just talking about minor tweaks or a few new textbooks. No, to truly modernize our schools and prepare students for the real world, we would need billions upon billions of dollars. It’s a staggering figure, I know, but one cannot expect a complete structural revolution on a shoestring budget.
With all due respect, the lot of them are absolute morons.
We’re still stuck with two whole hours of religion, while geography and science have been squeezed down to just ninety minutes for fifth and sixth graders. Honestly, what a complete joke of a reform. It’s absolutely maddening.
Well, it finally happened. The textbooks for the reform have landed on our desks.
I must give them credit where it's due; from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the visual overhaul is striking. The graphic design is entirely different, lending the whole thing a much more polished and serious tone. However, I’ve already committed the actual substance to memory, and frankly, it’s the exact same old story—not an ounce of reform to be found in the content itself.
Absolute garbage.

Nicholas King said:I honestly don't see how the abstract concept of learning outcomes—which, by the way, isn't some localized invention—has anything to do with whether or not I actually grasp the specifics of this particular reform.

What I’m laying out here isn't a matter of bias or personal prejudice; these are simply cold, hard facts, not subjective opinions.

Besides, here’s a little challenge for you all: this forum is absolutely crawling with educators—so why don't all those professionals whose knowledge assessments are subject to external oversight before they're even administered step up? I'd love to see them write down exactly how they define a grade given to a student in a clear and concrete way. Let’s just take a single grade like a "passing" mark, for instance.

Nicholas, man, you're missing the point entirely.
The way "outcomes" work around here is that instead of saying students will learn the past simple tense during class, the outcome becomes something like "Student 5.3"—I'm just making up numbers now, don't quote me—"can speak simple texts." Um, okay. Yeah, that'll really revolutionize the system!
Then, you can "operationalize" that outcome by stating that "the student describes past events using the past simple."
And suddenly, the student is going to learn the past simple SO MUCH BETTER, just because I didn't write "5th grade B learns past simple" in my lesson plan, but used those fancy phrases above instead!

See, THAT is how outcomes work in our neck of the woods.
They have nothing to do with the actual concept of learning outcomes as the rest of the world knows and uses them—primarily as something verified through external assessment and independent testing.

Nicholas King said:I honestly don't see how the abstract concept of learning outcomes—which, by the way, isn't some localized invention—has anything to do with whether or not I actually grasp the specifics of this particular reform.

What I’m laying out here isn't a matter of bias or personal prejudice; these are simply cold, hard facts, not subjective opinions.

Besides, here’s a little challenge for you all: this forum is absolutely crawling with educators—so why don't all those professionals whose knowledge assessments are subject to external oversight before they're even administered step up? I'd love to see them write down exactly how they define a grade given to a student in a clear and concrete way. Let’s just take a single grade like a "passing" mark, for instance.

Wait, what?😕 If I’m following you correctly, are you suggesting that teachers should have to hand their own tests over to someone else (someone smarter, obviously) just to get a thumbs-up before they can actually give them to their students?!

Whether you like it or not, teachers have classroom autonomy (and after the upcoming changes, they'll have even more 😉). Honestly, it’s a good thing. That independence is exactly what fuels creativity and freedom in the classroom. Sure, their work is subject to inspections—and that includes their testing—but that doesn't mean anyone needs to approve every single quiz before it hits a student's desk.

There are publisher-provided tests (found in those teacher manuals approved by the Department) that are free and super easy for instructors to grab. Most new teachers or those who aren't feeling particularly confident tend to lean on those—and I've definitely heard of folks just pulling random tests off the internet🙄 too.
But honestly? Everyone in my faculty room who actually knows what they're doing writes their own damn tests.

It would probably be useful if we had standardized state exams at the end of every year, kind of like the SATs. But we have to remember that those big tests can't always capture the full spectrum of what a kid actually knows or can do. In my book, the opinion of a teacher who actually knows the student should carry just as much weight.

By the way, every single grade a professor gives is laid out in detail within "grading criteria" that everyone is required to submit at the start of the school year—you should be able to find all of it in the curriculum documents on the school websites. 😉

I actually find myself in complete and total agreement with your core points. It’s just that where you see autonomy, I see pure feudalism—because this supposed "freedom" is nothing more than a teacher's unwritten, self-assumed prerogative that isn't grounded in any actual policy. 😬

The way some people get all sanctimonious and defensive the second you even mention external evaluations is just more proof of the problem. It’s that exact "they can judge ME, and nobody else, so what do they care?" mentality. This attitude toward the teaching process is one of those Bastilles that any serious overhaul of the American education system would need to tear down.

Nicholas King said:I actually find myself in complete and total agreement with your core points. It’s just that where you see autonomy, I see pure feudalism—because this supposed "freedom" is nothing more than a teacher's unwritten, self-assumed prerogative that isn't grounded in any actual policy. 😬

The way some people get all sanctimonious and defensive the second you even mention external evaluations is just more proof of the problem. It’s that exact "they can judge ME, and nobody else, so what do they care?" mentality. This attitude toward the teaching process is one of those Bastilles that any serious overhaul of the American education system would need to tear down.

Hmm, so we base it on the fact that they went to college for this and it's literally their profession? Like, assuming they actually know how to do the job?

Honestly, I'm just done arguing with people who hold the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who can ONLY do something right if someone watches over their shoulder like a nervous apprentice.

And could you please walk me through what you mean by "getting defensive" about external evaluations? Who exactly is getting defensive?🤔 As far as I can tell, most teachers actually push for external testing—like the SATs or state exams—mostly because it takes some of the weight of a student's entire future off their shoulders.

hiddendriver34 said:Hmm, so we base it on the fact that they went to college for this and it's literally their profession? Like, assuming they actually know how to do the job?

Honestly, I'm just done arguing with people who hold the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who can ONLY do something right if someone watches over their shoulder like a nervous apprentice.

And could you please walk me through what you mean by "getting defensive" about external evaluations? Who exactly is getting defensive?🤔 As far as I can tell, most teachers actually push for external testing—like the SATs or state exams—mostly because it takes some of the weight of a student's entire future off their shoulders.

The only thing you can actually assume is that they finished some college program. Based on what we saw today, nobody asks for actual skill—they just want to see the credentials.

hiddendriver34 said:Hmm, so we base it on the fact that they went to college for this and it's literally their profession? Like, assuming they actually know how to do the job?

Honestly, I'm just done arguing with people who hold the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who can ONLY do something right if someone watches over their shoulder like a nervous apprentice.

And could you please walk me through what you mean by "getting defensive" about external evaluations? Who exactly is getting defensive?🤔 As far as I can tell, most teachers actually push for external testing—like the SATs or state exams—mostly because it takes some of the weight of a student's entire future off their shoulders.

They aren't "off the street," but let's be honest: most of them are mediocre at best. Half of them probably had no clue what they wanted to do when they applied to university, so they just picked education as a way to coast through their studies and their careers.

hiddendriver34 said:Hmm, so we base it on the fact that they went to college for this and it's literally their profession? Like, assuming they actually know how to do the job?

Honestly, I'm just done arguing with people who hold the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who can ONLY do something right if someone watches over their shoulder like a nervous apprentice.

And could you please walk me through what you mean by "getting defensive" about external evaluations? Who exactly is getting defensive?🤔 As far as I can tell, most teachers actually push for external testing—like the SATs or state exams—mostly because it takes some of the weight of a student's entire future off their shoulders.

Exactly. It shifts the responsibility. That’s the whole point of the American school system: making sure the teacher isn't held accountable for anything. The fact that the entire system is a self-serving loop that achieves nothing is irrelevant to them.

hiddendriver34 said:Hmm, so we base it on the fact that they went to college for this and it's literally their profession? Like, assuming they actually know how to do the job?

Honestly, I'm just done arguing with people who hold the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who can ONLY do something right if someone watches over their shoulder like a nervous apprentice.

And could you please walk me through what you mean by "getting defensive" about external evaluations? Who exactly is getting defensive?🤔 As far as I can tell, most teachers actually push for external testing—like the SATs or state exams—mostly because it takes some of the weight of a student's entire future off their shoulders.

Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups.

Look, students are subjective, parents are subjective—what do they really know about what makes a good, competent educator? I mean, if you listen to the people who train everyone who supposedly "knows how to do their job," you'll see just how many "qualified and capable" individuals manage to wedge themselves into the system only to start exercising their supposed "autonomy." What is the actual issue with external evaluations? It's the same standard applied to almost any other profession—it shouldn't be special treatment—so why does it cause such intense indignation and mental anguish?

I honestly don't have the energy to keep arguing against the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who, if their every move isn't monitored like some apprentice, MIGHT actually manage to do something right.

Right. If you don't like Tit, you must love Hitler. If you don't grant a teacher the "autonomy" to conduct testing and grading, you consider them an idiot. That's some pretty impressive logic—one which I have neither the desire nor the intention to engage with.

And could you please elaborate on this bit about pushing back against external evaluation? Who exactly is pushing back?🤔

Well, look, your posts are essentially the essence of an elitist educator because someone dared to question a teacher's right to "autonomy."

As far as I know, most teachers advocate for external evaluation (like the SATs)

The SAT is, by today's standards here, an external evaluation of students (based on your sentence about "shifting responsibility," it seems you view it exclusively that way) — but I am talking about the external evaluation of teachers (BTW, it would be incredibly unfair to judge teachers solely, or even primarily, based on their students' SAT scores—but, it's also quite foolish that the SAT isn't currently used as an external metric for teachers at all—but, that's a whole different topic).

Take a look at your own sentences before you come back claiming that "most teachers advocate for external evaluation."

Nicholas King, how exactly would you go about doing an external evaluation of professors without actually grading their students? Would you just sit there reviewing their lesson plans and tests? That’s nothing but red tape; it wouldn't prove a thing. Or would you drop in on one of their classes to observe a lecture? One visit wouldn't tell you anything about how they teach the rest of the week. (And honestly, both of those things are already handled by academic advisors.)

What about evaluations on a website, similar to how patients rate their doctors? I actually think that’s not a bad idea at all—I truly believe students could do a fantastic job if they were evaluating professors based on specific categories. (I’m not quite as sure about parents, though.) I’m a big believer in using evaluations as a tool for self-reflection for anyone—I think we teachers should be evaluating our principals, and they should be evaluating us. In fact, I think your bosses, your subordinates, and even your clients should be evaluating you, regardless of what career you've chosen.

You might want to give my previous posts another read. I am a firm believer that you shouldn't mess with a teacher's autonomy. If anything, I think we should be given even more freedom in how we work. But for heaven's sake, that doesn't mean I'm against any kind of assessment of our performance.
All the best school systems in the world give their teachers a high level of autonomy. Take Finland (classic!), where they don't prescribe specific homework; teachers are completely free to choose it themselves.

Your whole argument starts from the assumption that teachers—even after all their training—don't know how to do their jobs. A lot of people in this country think just like you do. Their solution? Implement strict, heavy-handed control over teachers. That's how people who have zero clue how teaching actually works think. Creativity requires freedom, and only creative teaching is truly good teaching.
It would be wonderful if we could trust our teachers. That's the magic word.😉 It's what the Finnish do. And the Dutchman too.

hiddendriver34 said:Nicholas King, how exactly would you go about doing an external evaluation of professors without actually grading their students? Would you just sit there reviewing their lesson plans and tests? That’s nothing but red tape; it wouldn't prove a thing. Or would you drop in on one of their classes to observe a lecture? One visit wouldn't tell you anything about how they teach the rest of the week. (And honestly, both of those things are already handled by academic advisors.)

What about evaluations on a website, similar to how patients rate their doctors? I actually think that’s not a bad idea at all—I truly believe students could do a fantastic job if they were evaluating professors based on specific categories. (I’m not quite as sure about parents, though.) I’m a big believer in using evaluations as a tool for self-reflection for anyone—I think we teachers should be evaluating our principals, and they should be evaluating us. In fact, I think your bosses, your subordinates, and even your clients should be evaluating you, regardless of what career you've chosen.

You might want to give my previous posts another read. I am a firm believer that you shouldn't mess with a teacher's autonomy. If anything, I think we should be given even more freedom in how we work. But for heaven's sake, that doesn't mean I'm against any kind of assessment of our performance.
All the best school systems in the world give their teachers a high level of autonomy. Take Finland (classic!), where they don't prescribe specific homework; teachers are completely free to choose it themselves.

Your whole argument starts from the assumption that teachers—even after all their training—don't know how to do their jobs. A lot of people in this country think just like you do. Their solution? Implement strict, heavy-handed control over teachers. That's how people who have zero clue how teaching actually works think. Creativity requires freedom, and only creative teaching is truly good teaching.
It would be wonderful if we could trust our teachers. That's the magic word.😉 It's what the Finnish do. And the Dutchman too.

Honestly, one would need some pretty severe cognitive impairments to draw that specific conclusion from my statements—and an even more profound struggle with basic debate skills to present it as an absolute, indisputable fact.

I simply don't have the time, nor the inclination, to sit here and lecture anyone on the elementary principles of logical reasoning.

Thanks for nothing. Goodbye.

Man, when you claimed that assuming teachers actually know how to do their jobs was the mother of all screw-ups, you were clearly talking about a sandwich.🙄
It’s honestly a brilliant move to take those massive brain cells of yours and actually apply them to a topic you understand for once. Maybe then you could try using an actual argument instead of just attacking my character. 😉

Well articulated, hiddendriver34.

As an educator, I find myself in complete agreement with your points, and frankly, I have no intention of squandering my precious time or mental energy on such tedious, mindless debates.

Jason Morgan said:Regrettably, I must concur.

To implement any meaningful reform, we would first need to conduct an exhaustive, side-by-side comparison with how things are done on the ground elsewhere—an exercise in due diligence that, quite frankly, will likely never happen. We are talking about massive structural shifts: overhauling the entire scheduling system, pouring a mountain of capital into physical infrastructure and updated equipment, and finally exploring the feasibility of one-way instructional models. It’s a monumental undertaking, really.
It seems to me that if we are actually serious about a meaningful overhaul of our education system, we aren't just talking about minor tweaks or a few new textbooks. No, to truly modernize our schools and prepare students for the real world, we would need billions upon billions of dollars. It’s a staggering figure, I know, but one cannot expect a complete structural revolution on a shoestring budget.
With all due respect, the lot of them are absolute morons.
We’re still stuck with two whole hours of religion, while geography and science have been squeezed down to just ninety minutes for fifth and sixth graders. Honestly, what a complete joke of a reform. It’s absolutely maddening.
Well, it finally happened. The textbooks for the reform have landed on our desks.
I must give them credit where it's due; from a purely aesthetic standpoint, the visual overhaul is striking. The graphic design is entirely different, lending the whole thing a much more polished and serious tone. However, I’ve already committed the actual substance to memory, and frankly, it’s the exact same old story—not an ounce of reform to be found in the content itself.
Absolute garbage.

My own textbooks (from my freshman year of high school) look like a disaster, and honestly, we barely even use them. Especially the language ones. Plus, since the curriculum changed halfway through a six-month period, half the material isn't even there.

At first, I thought, okay, the concept isn't bad. The learning outcomes are clearly highlighted, there are some decent texts, it feels fresh—but then I saw Goethe taking up sixteen damn pages, and I felt like I wanted to set him on fire right in front of my students.

And once I actually started working with them... My God. And don't even get me started on the quality. It's top-tier stuff, clearly. 😁

As for teaching resources, library equipment, projectors, or chalkboards? Don't even get me started; the conditions are prehistoric. And tablets? Give me a break.

At American universities, student evaluations of professors have been around for ages. They’re basically standardized surveys students fill out at the end of the semester—usually for classes where the instructors themselves ask to be rated. It’s all because without those scores (specifically the high ones), they can't advance in their careers. Those positive ratings are a mandatory prerequisite for the performance reviews written by select committee members—who, naturally, have to hold higher academic ranks than the candidate being reviewed—every three to five years upon the request of the employer, or in this case, the university. Every promotion is tied to an official job opening. If candidates don't meet this requirement, or if their ratings fall below average—say, anything less than "good"—they basically have zero chance of moving up, and sometimes even losing their jobs entirely. This same logic applies when there's a possibility of extending employment after age 65—which US law allows if there's a need—but if the ratings aren't satisfactory, the extension is off the table. There was actually a high-profile case in the news about two years ago involving an academic, Prof. Dr. Mislav Ježić, whom the Faculty Council of FFZG wouldn't let stay on past 65 because his students gave him subpar teaching scores. He tried to fight it and launched a media campaign with the help of his friend, the University President Boras, who pressured the Faculty Council of FFZG to hold a re-vote. It didn't work, though—those student ratings at the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences were just too low. Still, it didn't stop him from applying for and landing a professorship over at FFDI.😁

Maybe we could roll out similar surveys in K-12 schools—letting students rate teachers on certain aspects of their work, provided it's tailored to their age group, of course.

placidorca16 said:At American universities, student evaluations of professors have been around for ages. They’re basically standardized surveys students fill out at the end of the semester—usually for classes where the instructors themselves ask to be rated. It’s all because without those scores (specifically the high ones), they can't advance in their careers. Those positive ratings are a mandatory prerequisite for the performance reviews written by select committee members—who, naturally, have to hold higher academic ranks than the candidate being reviewed—every three to five years upon the request of the employer, or in this case, the university. Every promotion is tied to an official job opening. If candidates don't meet this requirement, or if their ratings fall below average—say, anything less than "good"—they basically have zero chance of moving up, and sometimes even losing their jobs entirely. This same logic applies when there's a possibility of extending employment after age 65—which US law allows if there's a need—but if the ratings aren't satisfactory, the extension is off the table. There was actually a high-profile case in the news about two years ago involving an academic, Prof. Dr. Mislav Ježić, whom the Faculty Council of FFZG wouldn't let stay on past 65 because his students gave him subpar teaching scores. He tried to fight it and launched a media campaign with the help of his friend, the University President Boras, who pressured the Faculty Council of FFZG to hold a re-vote. It didn't work, though—those student ratings at the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences were just too low. Still, it didn't stop him from applying for and landing a professorship over at FFDI.😁

Maybe we could roll out similar surveys in K-12 schools—letting students rate teachers on certain aspects of their work, provided it's tailored to their age group, of course.

that would be really interesting 😍

Honestly, I was just chatting with a colleague from my university the other day, and she was saying how crazy it is that students basically hold professors hostage with those end-of-term evaluations. Apparently, if you actually stick to the syllabus and demand real academic rigor, you get hit with terrible ratings—it’s like they punish anyone who actually wants to learn something meaningful. On the flip side, if you turn your course into some kind of mindless social club or a dance class, you get nothing but straight A's.
And the kicker? Those bad evaluations can actually stall someone's career progression or even cost them their job down the line. It’s wild.
I’m seriously counting down the days until they implement that kind of system in K-12 schools. Once that happens, I’m going to give everyone straight A's right out of the gate, let them watch cartoons during class all year, and we'll all be the highest-rated teachers in the district!

Yeah, and it’s honestly hilarious how they’re doing the exact same thing they were whining about just a few months ago.

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Sarah Hall53 said:Honestly, I was just chatting with a colleague from my university the other day, and she was saying how crazy it is that students basically hold professors hostage with those end-of-term evaluations. Apparently, if you actually stick to the syllabus and demand real academic rigor, you get hit with terrible ratings—it’s like they punish anyone who actually wants to learn something meaningful. On the flip side, if you turn your course into some kind of mindless social club or a dance class, you get nothing but straight A's.
And the kicker? Those bad evaluations can actually stall someone's career progression or even cost them their job down the line. It’s wild.
I’m seriously counting down the days until they implement that kind of system in K-12 schools. Once that happens, I’m going to give everyone straight A's right out of the gate, let them watch cartoons during class all year, and we'll all be the highest-rated teachers in the district!

How exactly would that play out? Picture a student representative standing up at the first lecture and telling the professor, "Look, here’s the deal: we have unlimited absences, we need the midterms a week in advance, the finals a month early, and you better let us throw spontaneous raves in your classroom, otherwise, we’re all tanking your evaluation scores—capisce?"

Personally, I don't think student surveys should be the primary metric for evaluating teachers, though perhaps they have a place. Why not implement age-appropriate feedback paired with external evaluations and long-term performance tracking? It seems to me that if you're going to use external evaluators, you really need baseline testing to understand what kind of environment the teachers are walking into; without that context, the exit data is pretty much meaningless.