School Reform: Thoughts?

Susan James said:that would be really interesting 😍

Yeah, I'm with you there.😬
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the ratings ended up being split based on just how easy or brutal a subject is to learn.

Though—let's be real—students are already pretty cynical when it comes to grading, and we can't ignore the sample size issue. In some classes, you've only got 3 to 5 students evaluating a professor—usually small groups or those optional lectures—whereas other courses have 50+ people, which actually gives you a reliable data set.

Of course, this opens a massive can of worms... It would basically just give parents more opportunities to jump in and "contribute" their own opinions to those ratings.😍

Elementary school students simply lack the maturity required to evaluate their teachers; frankly, it is quite absurd and unprofessional to allow pre-adolescent children to hold such sway over a person's career.
In the faculty lounges, there is a very clear understanding of who actually puts in the work and who is merely coasting, and any principal worth their salt knows exactly which staff members are assets and which are liabilities.
Furthermore, children are incredibly easy to manipulate, and any teacher who lacks a work ethic can easily "buy" their affection. In my own experience at the school, the students absolutely adored the biggest slacker on staff—a man who did essentially nothing except collect a paycheck while playing soccer with the kids during class time. He gave everyone straight A's, so naturally, they loved him because he was single-handedly boosting their GPAs. Of course, they were desperate for him to stay on the schedule.

Jason Morgan said:Elementary school students simply lack the maturity required to evaluate their teachers; frankly, it is quite absurd and unprofessional to allow pre-adolescent children to hold such sway over a person's career.
In the faculty lounges, there is a very clear understanding of who actually puts in the work and who is merely coasting, and any principal worth their salt knows exactly which staff members are assets and which are liabilities.
Furthermore, children are incredibly easy to manipulate, and any teacher who lacks a work ethic can easily "buy" their affection. In my own experience at the school, the students absolutely adored the biggest slacker on staff—a man who did essentially nothing except collect a paycheck while playing soccer with the kids during class time. He gave everyone straight A's, so naturally, they loved him because he was single-handedly boosting their GPAs. Of course, they were desperate for him to stay on the schedule.

I'm with you on that. But let's be real—we already deal with this biased evaluation system through parents. They come into schools, file complaints, make threats, or act out emotionally just to pressure teachers into giving their kids better grades.🙄 Even here on the politics boards, specifically regarding education reform, there are plenty of angry parents just tearing down teachers without any hesitation.👎 What kind of criteria is that for judging someone's performance—and why is it even allowed?

Any school reform that fails to protect the rights of students and their parents is dead on arrival. Don't even bother starting it.
The problem with teachers is that they usually only find their voices when their own wallets are at stake. They'll complain about their paychecks all day, but they couldn't care less if society is collapsing around them, as long as their salary stays high.
Honestly, I think every teacher needs to be financially literate. Only an economically savvy educator can raise a generation that won't end up voting for political parties that hoard massive pensions for themselves, leaving everyone else stuck in the gutter.

It might look like people are only speaking up because they're chasing a bigger paycheck—I mean, that’s what the unions focus on, right? Since the Republican Party laws basically only allow strikes over material rights, it can definitely seem that way.
But honestly, it isn't just about the money. People are making noise about other stuff too.
Back in December, there was this huge "Safe Schools" rally where several thousand educators stood up to demand better personal safety—for themselves and their students—and more effective ways to handle discipline in the classroom.
Right now, there's also a petition circulating to get rid of those anonymous tip lines used by inspectors and oversight boards.
It’s not that people aren't raising their voices; it’s just that these issues don't always grab the headlines, so the general public doesn't really hear much about them.

As for why the financial side matters so much... well, our friend Saša explained that perfectly the other day. It’s definitely worth a read if you want to see how everything actually connects.

Sarah Hall53 said:It might look like people are only speaking up because they're chasing a bigger paycheck—I mean, that’s what the unions focus on, right? Since the Republican Party laws basically only allow strikes over material rights, it can definitely seem that way.
But honestly, it isn't just about the money. People are making noise about other stuff too.
Back in December, there was this huge "Safe Schools" rally where several thousand educators stood up to demand better personal safety—for themselves and their students—and more effective ways to handle discipline in the classroom.
Right now, there's also a petition circulating to get rid of those anonymous tip lines used by inspectors and oversight boards.
It’s not that people aren't raising their voices; it’s just that these issues don't always grab the headlines, so the general public doesn't really hear much about them.

As for why the financial side matters so much... well, our friend Saša explained that perfectly the other day. It’s definitely worth a read if you want to see how everything actually connects.

I was actually there. Maybe two or three thousand teachers at most. Honestly, given how many of us there are, it’s a pathetic turnout. Teachers, I mean.

Jason Morgan said:Elementary school students simply lack the maturity required to evaluate their teachers; frankly, it is quite absurd and unprofessional to allow pre-adolescent children to hold such sway over a person's career.
In the faculty lounges, there is a very clear understanding of who actually puts in the work and who is merely coasting, and any principal worth their salt knows exactly which staff members are assets and which are liabilities.
Furthermore, children are incredibly easy to manipulate, and any teacher who lacks a work ethic can easily "buy" their affection. In my own experience at the school, the students absolutely adored the biggest slacker on staff—a man who did essentially nothing except collect a paycheck while playing soccer with the kids during class time. He gave everyone straight A's, so naturally, they loved him because he was single-handedly boosting their GPAs. Of course, they were desperate for him to stay on the schedule.

Are we perhaps working at the same school?🤣 🤣

I have someone exactly like that here too—constantly showing up late, doing zero actual work, just messing around while handing out straight A's; the students are thrilled, and the parents are just as happy.

It might sound naive, but I think students could only truly evaluate their teachers once they finish high school; it's only then that they can actually tell who taught them something meaningful and who was just blowing smoke.

Jason Morgan said:Elementary school students simply lack the maturity required to evaluate their teachers; frankly, it is quite absurd and unprofessional to allow pre-adolescent children to hold such sway over a person's career.
In the faculty lounges, there is a very clear understanding of who actually puts in the work and who is merely coasting, and any principal worth their salt knows exactly which staff members are assets and which are liabilities.
Furthermore, children are incredibly easy to manipulate, and any teacher who lacks a work ethic can easily "buy" their affection. In my own experience at the school, the students absolutely adored the biggest slacker on staff—a man who did essentially nothing except collect a paycheck while playing soccer with the kids during class time. He gave everyone straight A's, so naturally, they loved him because he was single-handedly boosting their GPAs. Of course, they were desperate for him to stay on the schedule.

There's a way to work around that.
If a teacher is evaluating a specific 5th-grade class at the end of the year, we should already know if they'll be moving on to a different 6th-grade group next year.
We really ought to rotate teachers.

Kids are more than capable of providing feedback on whether they actually grasped the material during class, what kind of help they received, or what expectations the professor set.

I'm not saying a teacher's entire livelihood should depend on this, since that's a heavy burden to put on children.
But I am for them getting feedback on where they excelled and where they struggled, so they can work on those areas within peer groups or maybe even with a subject specialist...
I know people always focus on the negatives, but you'd be surprised how many kids think certain teachers are totally cool and appreciate their teaching style. They can clearly articulate that they learned a specific topic exclusively from one person during one particular class, which is the whole point of education and is vital feedback for the instructor. It's arguably the most important part.

Just because the administration and the principal KNOW someone isn't doing their job doesn't mean anything if there's zero accountability or consequences for failing to act.
And if the principal isn't capable of handling it, then we shouldn't expect the kids to fix the problem either.
(Unless they start recording what the teacher says and leak it to a site like TMZ or BuzzFeed—because even after years of filing formal complaints with the principal, various homeroom teachers, and the administration, nothing ever seems to happen.)

Susan James said:There's a way to work around that.
If a teacher is evaluating a specific 5th-grade class at the end of the year, we should already know if they'll be moving on to a different 6th-grade group next year.
We really ought to rotate teachers.

Kids are more than capable of providing feedback on whether they actually grasped the material during class, what kind of help they received, or what expectations the professor set.

I'm not saying a teacher's entire livelihood should depend on this, since that's a heavy burden to put on children.
But I am for them getting feedback on where they excelled and where they struggled, so they can work on those areas within peer groups or maybe even with a subject specialist...
I know people always focus on the negatives, but you'd be surprised how many kids think certain teachers are totally cool and appreciate their teaching style. They can clearly articulate that they learned a specific topic exclusively from one person during one particular class, which is the whole point of education and is vital feedback for the instructor. It's arguably the most important part.

Just because the administration and the principal KNOW someone isn't doing their job doesn't mean anything if there's zero accountability or consequences for failing to act.
And if the principal isn't capable of handling it, then we shouldn't expect the kids to fix the problem either.
(Unless they start recording what the teacher says and leak it to a site like TMZ or BuzzFeed—because even after years of filing formal complaints with the principal, various homeroom teachers, and the administration, nothing ever seems to happen.)

That’s easier said than done. At my school, we usually only have one instructor per subject, maybe two for some niche electives, and we aren't exactly some tiny rural schoolhouse either.

In principle, I don't mind students evaluating their teachers—I think getting high-quality feedback would actually be quite useful. I tried setting up a little end-of-year survey myself a few years back, but it just didn't quite hit the mark.

I honestly believe high schoolers could provide some incredibly objective, useful feedback on their teachers' performance. I'm not talking about vague surveys asking, "Is Mr. Smith a good teacher?" That’s useless. Instead, we should give them specific, targeted questions—things like, "Does this instructor grade way too easy?" or "How many hours a day do you actually spend studying this subject?" That kind of data would immediately flag those instructors who just hand out A's like candy without ever demanding actual effort or engagement from their students.

With my own students, we have this great dynamic where they always give me feedback that genuinely helps me level up. They really value the knowledge they're gaining, and they have zero patience for teachers who just coast through class. Honestly, the best reviews I ever get come during high school reunions. By then, they've grown up, they remember everything clearly, and they have enough emotional maturity to sit me down and say, "Hey, you were great at this, but you really sucked at that." 😁

Now, sure, some teachers are going to be totally defensive. They’ll want to turn a blind eye to whatever their students have to say. But even those folks could benefit from hearing the truth. They might fight it at first, acting like it doesn't matter, but eventually, it would force them to take a hard look in the mirror and actually start improving.

At the end of the day, evaluation is essential 👍. But it should be used strictly as a tool for personal growth, not as a weapon for promotions or grounds for getting fired.

In high school? Sure, you could get a decent read on things. But elementary school? Not a chance. You’d have to dig much deeper than just surface-level vibes. I suppose one might ask how much they are actually absorbing versus just listening to a lecture, or if they feel comfortable enough to speak up when they're lost—and more importantly, if they actually receive a helpful answer. You'd need to gauge whether the teacher seems genuinely prepared or if they show up looking like they just rolled out of bed and wandered into the classroom without a clue. You'd look at the depth of the curriculum coverage, the teaching methodology, and the actual quality of information being passed down. Those are valid inquiries. However, under no circumstances should you ever corner a child with manipulative, open-ended nonsense like, "Do you like your teacher?" or "Are the lessons fun?" That is simply not how you get the truth.

Jason Morgan said:In high school? Sure, you could get a decent read on things. But elementary school? Not a chance. You’d have to dig much deeper than just surface-level vibes. I suppose one might ask how much they are actually absorbing versus just listening to a lecture, or if they feel comfortable enough to speak up when they're lost—and more importantly, if they actually receive a helpful answer. You'd need to gauge whether the teacher seems genuinely prepared or if they show up looking like they just rolled out of bed and wandered into the classroom without a clue. You'd look at the depth of the curriculum coverage, the teaching methodology, and the actual quality of information being passed down. Those are valid inquiries. However, under no circumstances should you ever corner a child with manipulative, open-ended nonsense like, "Do you like your teacher?" or "Are the lessons fun?" That is simply not how you get the truth.

Why couldn't you ask those same things to an elementary student?

Ronald Chavez2 said:Why couldn't you ask those same things to an elementary student?

I was actually sitting in an elementary school classroom thinking the exact same thing.

One might wonder whether students actually grasp what’s expected of them, or how much consistency they can truly rely on from their instructors. Back when I was in school, that clarity was established almost immediately. Interestingly, people tended to speak with far more respect about those strictly disciplined teachers than they did about the "fun" ones—the unpredictable types who handed out A's like candy. Even if those easygoing professors were more popular or resulted in higher GPAs, there was a certain dignity in knowing exactly where you stood with a disciplined educator.

Conducting surveys among elementary schoolers is likely a terrible idea—and I’m specifically talking about any survey where the results would dictate a teacher's career without even a shred of oversight or nuance.

However, viewing high schoolers and college students—every single one of them, in my estimation—as nothing more than entitled brats who care about nothing except getting their diploma while couldn't care less about actual learning... well, seeing them as a bunch of kids who will inevitably use these surveys to screw over dedicated professors just for the hell of it is, frankly, pathetic. And it’s all the more telling when those kinds of descriptions are being voiced by the educators themselves.

Look, a survey isn't some flawless instrument, but it isn't a bad one either. Besides, it's always easy to just sit back and spit on everything.

BTW, of course student feedback from high school or college levels can, and perhaps should, lead to a teacher being let go in certain specific circumstances.

Ronald Chavez2 said:How exactly would that play out? Picture a student representative standing up at the first lecture and telling the professor, "Look, here’s the deal: we have unlimited absences, we need the midterms a week in advance, the finals a month early, and you better let us throw spontaneous raves in your classroom, otherwise, we’re all tanking your evaluation scores—capisce?"

Personally, I don't think student surveys should be the primary metric for evaluating teachers, though perhaps they have a place. Why not implement age-appropriate feedback paired with external evaluations and long-term performance tracking? It seems to me that if you're going to use external evaluators, you really need baseline testing to understand what kind of environment the teachers are walking into; without that context, the exit data is pretty much meaningless.

Honestly, when you're dealing with college students, this is a completely reasonable demand.

I mean, why does a student actually HAVE to show up to every single lecture? If they show up to the midterm or the final exam having mastered all the material—so what? Is the response just, 'Sorry, kid, you missed class, so beat it'? That seems fundamentally flawed to me. 🤦

Jason Morgan said:In high school? Sure, you could get a decent read on things. But elementary school? Not a chance. You’d have to dig much deeper than just surface-level vibes. I suppose one might ask how much they are actually absorbing versus just listening to a lecture, or if they feel comfortable enough to speak up when they're lost—and more importantly, if they actually receive a helpful answer. You'd need to gauge whether the teacher seems genuinely prepared or if they show up looking like they just rolled out of bed and wandered into the classroom without a clue. You'd look at the depth of the curriculum coverage, the teaching methodology, and the actual quality of information being passed down. Those are valid inquiries. However, under no circumstances should you ever corner a child with manipulative, open-ended nonsense like, "Do you like your teacher?" or "Are the lessons fun?" That is simply not how you get the truth.

I've noticed that after various workshops or extracurricular programs, kids often fill out surveys about what they learned and their overall experience. If those surveys avoid loaded, leading questions, we could easily design similar ones for teachers too.

In many American schools, kids participate in sociometry assessments as early as second grade. From everything I’ve gathered, the results often line up perfectly with what the teachers are seeing in the classroom anyway.
Kids are actually quite perceptive, and we shouldn't be afraid of their feedback. Instead, we should view it as valuable data to help us improve how we teach.

Nicholas King said:Honestly, when you're dealing with college students, this is a completely reasonable demand.

I mean, why does a student actually HAVE to show up to every single lecture? If they show up to the midterm or the final exam having mastered all the material—so what? Is the response just, 'Sorry, kid, you missed class, so beat it'? That seems fundamentally flawed to me. 🤦

Well, at most American universities since the credit reform... yes, they do.

Susan James said:I've noticed that after various workshops or extracurricular programs, kids often fill out surveys about what they learned and their overall experience. If those surveys avoid loaded, leading questions, we could easily design similar ones for teachers too.

In many American schools, kids participate in sociometry assessments as early as second grade. From everything I’ve gathered, the results often line up perfectly with what the teachers are seeing in the classroom anyway.
Kids are actually quite perceptive, and we shouldn't be afraid of their feedback. Instead, we should view it as valuable data to help us improve how we teach.

Most of my colleagues conduct this kind of research independently through anonymous end-of-year surveys or by checking in with the eighth graders.

Jason Morgan said:Well, at most American universities since the credit reform... yes, they do.

Most of my colleagues conduct this kind of research independently through anonymous end-of-year surveys or by checking in with the eighth graders.

Not really. Most colleges didn't actually change that much when the new academic structure was implemented. It’s mostly just a 3+2 setup now, and they introduced those standard credit hours. The professors who used to demand attendance still demand it, and the ones who didn't, well, they don't. It's pretty much the same thing, I guess.

We really shouldn't underestimate kids.

Children are actually quite perceptive when it comes to figuring out which teacher is genuinely helping them grow, sharing real knowledge, and building their skill sets.

At the same time, they are incredibly sharp at realizing that getting an A is much more important than actually mastering a subject or developing solid work habits.

Because of that, students will almost always give the highest ratings to the teacher who hands out easy As.

The teachers who get those glowing reviews are often the ones who prioritize grades over everything else, regardless of whether they’re actually teaching anything useful.
On the flip side, you don't see high marks for the instructors who struggle with classroom management or deliver disorganized, subpar lessons—even if they are being strict about grading.

So, I’ll let you all decide how much sense it makes to have students evaluate their teachers.
It’s far too easy for an instructor to just game the system by handing out top grades to keep everyone happy.