School Reform: Thoughts?

Sarah Hall53 said:Exactly, that's pretty much how it goes.
Man, even with the paychecks they get—which, let's face it, aren't great—people can hardly afford to strike because they're stuck wondering, "Wait, who's going to watch the kids while we're out protesting?" That's why strikes always seem to fizzle out. It's not that people aren't tough enough to handle losing a day's pay (that hasn't really been an issue since the 90s), it's just that they genuinely care about the students.
And those are the same parents whose opinions actually matter. ☕

As for the law itself? Yeah, it absolutely needs to change.
But until someone actually fixes it, the only legal way to walk off the job is to strike over pay and benefits.

Everyone has the legal right to refuse work if their health or life is on the line.

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Jason Morgan said:To add to that:

Teachers are actual human beings, not just pieces of hardware. Of course, there are bad ones—terrible ones who really ought to be let go—but more than half of them are decent people doing an incredible job while being paid peanuts. I don't know what kind of deep-seated grievances you all have with educators (believe me, I have my own share of baggage), but there's no need to be this aggressive about it. The school system I attended back when I graduated in 2005 doesn't even exist anymore.
Would anyone care to share their experiences?

On top of everything else, acting as a homeroom advisor requires at least three, ideally four, hours of work throughout the year that simply isn't compensated. If we could just hand everyone a stopwatch every time they started working, it would be quite enlightening to see just how much unpaid overtime is actually happening.

Wait, are you saying 3 to 4 hours every single week of unpaid labor throughout the school year?

nimblelynx7 said:Everyone has the legal right to refuse work if their health or life is on the line.

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Look, I don't usually bother replying to you, but I really feel like I have to jump in here.
Under the Labor Code, Section 205 (1)—

Labor unions have the authority to call for and carry out strikes to protect and promote the economic and social interests of their members—including cases where wages, partial wages, or wage reimbursements aren't paid by the due date.

So, basically, a strike can only happen for those specific reasons.

What you're talking about isn't actually a strike—it’s a work stoppage, which is covered under Section 95 (4) of the CIA regulations.

And honestly, what that guy is talking about—"striking over reforms"—is basically a one-way ticket to being blacklisted by the unemployment office, because that is completely illegal.

Sarah Hall53 said:Wait, are you saying 3 to 4 hours every single week of unpaid labor throughout the school year?

If I could actually bill for it, I absolutely would.
Right now, they compensate me for twenty minutes of prep work for every hour of class, but what happens when my prep session stretches to ninety minutes?
It’s the exact same story with being a homeroom teacher. Last week, I had a parent-teacher conference that dragged on for an hour and a half, not to mention the phone calls I spent catching up with three different parents—none of which accounted for a single minute of my official school hours.
There isn't a single line item in my contract that covers that. It’s all incredibly easy to dismiss everything else as just "other duties," but in reality, those "duties" are just a collection of mindless, unpaid tasks that fall outside the scope of my actual job.

Strikes aren't the only way to take organized action.

Honestly, any discussion regarding educational reform is basically dead on arrival as long as everyone involved in the teacher-parent-student triangle relies on those lazy "they're all just..." stereotypes. It’s this toxic pattern where parents and students claim "they're all just incompetent, lazy, and totally uninterested in actual progress..."; meanwhile, teachers paint the others as "all just maniacs obsessed with grades..." or—even worse—"just a bunch of hooligans waiting for an excuse to cause chaos..."—all based on nothing more than a few bad experiences with one or two specific individuals.

And then, predictably, anyone within that triangle who doesn't fit those labels feels insulted. They get offended. Then they get angry. And eventually, things just turn aggressive 😬.

The phrase I keep repeating might sound a bit "political," but I am convinced it is a fundamental truth: we won't see any luck with our schools or our reforms until the heads of this triangle (along with the broader "community" at the top) start viewing one another as stakeholders—you know, people all rowing in the same boat. We need the "community" to actually, consistently, and most importantly sincerely promote competence and knowledge as a core societal value.

BTW, saying "more than half" is—well, it's actually a very low bar, regardless of which part of the triangle you're looking at. We need significantly more than just a simple majority of decent teachers, decent parents, and decent students. More than that, we need a clear, functional mechanism to actually increase the number of those "decent" people in the mix.

Sarah Hall53 said:Look, I don't usually bother replying to you, but I really feel like I have to jump in here.
Under the Labor Code, Section 205 (1)—

Labor unions have the authority to call for and carry out strikes to protect and promote the economic and social interests of their members—including cases where wages, partial wages, or wage reimbursements aren't paid by the due date.

So, basically, a strike can only happen for those specific reasons.

What you're talking about isn't actually a strike—it’s a work stoppage, which is covered under Section 95 (4) of the CIA regulations.

And honestly, what that guy is talking about—"striking over reforms"—is basically a one-way ticket to being blacklisted by the unemployment office, because that is completely illegal.

This has nothing to do with labor law; it's an issue for the Occupational Safety and Health Act.

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Nicholas King said:Strikes aren't the only way to take organized action.

Honestly, any discussion regarding educational reform is basically dead on arrival as long as everyone involved in the teacher-parent-student triangle relies on those lazy "they're all just..." stereotypes. It’s this toxic pattern where parents and students claim "they're all just incompetent, lazy, and totally uninterested in actual progress..."; meanwhile, teachers paint the others as "all just maniacs obsessed with grades..." or—even worse—"just a bunch of hooligans waiting for an excuse to cause chaos..."—all based on nothing more than a few bad experiences with one or two specific individuals.

And then, predictably, anyone within that triangle who doesn't fit those labels feels insulted. They get offended. Then they get angry. And eventually, things just turn aggressive 😬.

The phrase I keep repeating might sound a bit "political," but I am convinced it is a fundamental truth: we won't see any luck with our schools or our reforms until the heads of this triangle (along with the broader "community" at the top) start viewing one another as stakeholders—you know, people all rowing in the same boat. We need the "community" to actually, consistently, and most importantly sincerely promote competence and knowledge as a core societal value.

BTW, saying "more than half" is—well, it's actually a very low bar, regardless of which part of the triangle you're looking at. We need significantly more than just a simple majority of decent teachers, decent parents, and decent students. More than that, we need a clear, functional mechanism to actually increase the number of those "decent" people in the mix.

I agree completely. As far as I'm concerned, we should feel free to tighten the criteria for disciplinary warnings and even terminations.
So many people work as long-term substitutes for years, and frankly, they often prove to be much higher quality than those holding permanent positions.

nimblelynx7 said:This has nothing to do with labor law; it's an issue for the Occupational Safety and Health Act.

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Come on, be a sweetheart and check the actual Labor Law, Section 205 (1)—just verify if it really says exactly what I told you it says.
It’s possible there’s some overlap with the Occupational Safety and Health Act too, I guess.
But even then, we aren't talking about a strike here; it's more of a work stoppage or a pause in operations.
I just want us to use the right terminology, you know? Just to stay precise.

Anyway, regarding those tablets in class—setting aside the whole "kids will always forget them" thing (and trust me, most of us have enough spare pencils, erasers, and paper stashed away for the students who constantly lose everything, btw)—or the issue of dead batteries—the real headache is how finicky technology can be. You lose so much precious lesson time because they're struggling to type in an address since the camera or scanning app decides not to work, or they mistype something, or they've forgotten their app login, or suddenly one tablet won't load a single link... and just like that, a five-minute activity eats up fifteen minutes of the period.
In those extra ten minutes, we could have been practicing, doing tongue-twisters, singing, playing games, or having a real discussion...
It's not that I'm against progress, it's just that the effort-to-reward ratio feels off right now. Once these technical "growing pains" are sorted out and things run smoother, I'll be more than happy to lean into tech wherever it actually makes sense.

Sarah Hall53 said:Come on, be a sweetheart and check the actual Labor Law, Section 205 (1)—just verify if it really says exactly what I told you it says.
It’s possible there’s some overlap with the Occupational Safety and Health Act too, I guess.
But even then, we aren't talking about a strike here; it's more of a work stoppage or a pause in operations.
I just want us to use the right terminology, you know? Just to stay precise.

Anyway, regarding those tablets in class—setting aside the whole "kids will always forget them" thing (and trust me, most of us have enough spare pencils, erasers, and paper stashed away for the students who constantly lose everything, btw)—or the issue of dead batteries—the real headache is how finicky technology can be. You lose so much precious lesson time because they're struggling to type in an address since the camera or scanning app decides not to work, or they mistype something, or they've forgotten their app login, or suddenly one tablet won't load a single link... and just like that, a five-minute activity eats up fifteen minutes of the period.
In those extra ten minutes, we could have been practicing, doing tongue-twisters, singing, playing games, or having a real discussion...
It's not that I'm against progress, it's just that the effort-to-reward ratio feels off right now. Once these technical "growing pains" are sorted out and things run smoother, I'll be more than happy to lean into tech wherever it actually makes sense.

I actually wanted to chime in when people were talking about how kids have transitioned from tablets back to pen and paper, but I decided against it. This whole thread feels like spinning our wheels in the mud...

In my classroom, I’ve made it part of my grading criteria that a student needs to show up ready to work, which means having a sharpened pencil or a mechanical pencil with lead actually inside it—it really has come to that.

They don't even have pencils when it's time for an exam. Take a third-period class, for instance. If they managed to forget there was a test today, they would have had to hear about it from their classmates by the time third period rolled around. Honestly, I just shrug, check the clock on the wall, and wait for everyone to get settled with a pencil. Of course, that's only after I hand out some from my own stash, which, let's be real, rarely makes its way back to my desk. It ends up eating into precious testing time.

You raise kids who aren't taught how to think, and then you act shocked when they fail at life.

I spent fourteen years in the American school system, and let me tell you, no teacher ever handed out a pencil, an eraser, or even a scrap of paper without being asked. No one just stepped up to provide the basics.

Jason Morgan said:I agree completely. As far as I'm concerned, we should feel free to tighten the criteria for disciplinary warnings and even terminations.
So many people work as long-term substitutes for years, and frankly, they often prove to be much higher quality than those holding permanent positions.

There is a much more effective way to handle this: implementing a comprehensive performance review every five or six years, utilizing measurable benchmarks to compare candidates during the hiring process.

This isn't some revolutionary concept or anything—it's common sense. If an employee knows they can only be let go for a massive, undeniable blunder, they tend to get complacent. A structured re-evaluation process would make it significantly easier to weed out those who simply don't belong in the organization anymore.

No amount of absolute chaos can seem to shake them loose.
We all know someone—one of those people who should have been slapped with a formal warning or just handed their walking papers long ago—who somehow still manages to keep their job.

I make it a point never to lend out a single pen, an eraser, a compass, or even a pencil sharpener; frankly, I couldn't care less about their ridiculous little games. I simply remind them, quite pointedly, that this isn't some prestigious university and that school is their primary responsibility right now. "But once I start writing 🙂"—honestly, I don't give a damn. You're thirteen years old and you've been sitting in a classroom for eight years already, so perhaps you could try actually finding an answer for once.

Nicholas King said:There is a much more effective way to handle this: implementing a comprehensive performance review every five or six years, utilizing measurable benchmarks to compare candidates during the hiring process.

This isn't some revolutionary concept or anything—it's common sense. If an employee knows they can only be let go for a massive, undeniable blunder, they tend to get complacent. A structured re-evaluation process would make it significantly easier to weed out those who simply don't belong in the organization anymore.

But honestly, that doesn't work in today's climate. In our schools, the principal basically acts like a god—life or death, really—and without tenure, you're stuck. The only thing actually protecting you from them in the long run is having a permanent contract. If you're relying on a re-election every few years, principals will just become all-powerful dictators. They'll hire their own loyalists, who then vote to keep them in power... and if anyone dares to disagree? Well, suddenly some other candidate looks "perfectly suited" for the next opening, and just like that, you're out.

Any attempt to fix hiring, reward the high performers, or weed out the dead weight is doomed to fail from day one unless we address the elephant in the room: the autocratic, dictatorial power these principals have over "their" schools. And after a second term, most of them start treating the whole place like their own private kingdom.

At the end of the day, I feel like the entire system—from the top brass down to the ground level—needs to be hit with napalm, burned to the ground, plowed under, and salted. Then, maybe, we could build something new from scratch.
With as little political meddling and special interest influence as possible.
But since that's basically impossible, well... here we are.

The phrase "measurable criteria for candidate comparison" is just a joke—not only does it completely fail to mention the Director, but it’s as if he doesn't even exist on the horizon of this entire re-election process.

Nicholas King said:The phrase "measurable criteria for candidate comparison" is just a joke—not only does it completely fail to mention the Director, but it’s as if he doesn't even exist on the horizon of this entire re-election process.

It's a total pipe dream within the current setup.
I've been stuck in this system for over 10 years now, and honestly, I'm pretty convinced that every single change they've made during that time has just... made things worse.
Have you seen what this whole candidate testing thing they rolled out this year has turned into? It's a complete circus. 🤦

Sarah Hall53 said:It's a total pipe dream within the current setup.
I've been stuck in this system for over 10 years now, and honestly, I'm pretty convinced that every single change they've made during that time has just... made things worse.
Have you seen what this whole candidate testing thing they rolled out this year has turned into? It's a complete circus. 🤦

Honestly, I tend to view any discussion regarding education reform as nothing more than a trip to Imagination City 🙂. From my perspective—and I might be wrong here, but I doubt it—there simply isn't any real public support for genuine, substantive reform, which means the odds of seeing anything meaningful actually happen are slim to nonexistent.

One of my most significant forecasting blunders was predicting that the Secretary of Education, Wilder, would resign before Christmas in her first year in office. Instead, she opted for a second term and started making compromises in the name of some "higher purpose"—so, well, here we are.

The final nail in the coffin for my belief that reform could ever succeed was that grotesque scene already linked here; it wasn't just an insult to teachers, it was just endlessly low-quality.

So, much like that rabbit in the joke that’s too long to bother retelling, I’m just sitting here picking my nails and talking nonsense 🕺.

wanderingbadger44 said:I actually wanted to chime in when people were talking about how kids have transitioned from tablets back to pen and paper, but I decided against it. This whole thread feels like spinning our wheels in the mud...

In my classroom, I’ve made it part of my grading criteria that a student needs to show up ready to work, which means having a sharpened pencil or a mechanical pencil with lead actually inside it—it really has come to that.

They don't even have pencils when it's time for an exam. Take a third-period class, for instance. If they managed to forget there was a test today, they would have had to hear about it from their classmates by the time third period rolled around. Honestly, I just shrug, check the clock on the wall, and wait for everyone to get settled with a pencil. Of course, that's only after I hand out some from my own stash, which, let's be real, rarely makes its way back to my desk. It ends up eating into precious testing time.

What’s the point? You walk into the classroom, hand out the tests, and move on. I don't see any reason to penalize the responsible students by wasting everyone's time, nor do I see the logic in teaching those who show up unprepared that it "doesn't matter." Sure, anyone can forget their pencil case at home, but shouldn't there be a baseline level of expectation where a student tries to solve the problem themselves by borrowing from a peer? If you only realize you're unprepared right as the exam starts and don't have a chance to ask a neighbor—say, in a small seminar class where nobody carries doubles—wouldn't it be better to just raise your hand, apologize to the teacher, and ask to borrow one?

This habit of handing out spare pencils is a disaster, though, if you don't mind me saying, you're partially responsible for it yourself. There is no sense in continuing to lend tools to students who have proven themselves so unreliable that they won't even return them once finished; by refusing to lend, you're actually sending a message about the importance of reliability and "reputation," both of which are factors people consider when deciding whether or not to help you out in the first place.

Ronald Chavez2 said:What’s the point? You walk into the classroom, hand out the tests, and move on. I don't see any reason to penalize the responsible students by wasting everyone's time, nor do I see the logic in teaching those who show up unprepared that it "doesn't matter." Sure, anyone can forget their pencil case at home, but shouldn't there be a baseline level of expectation where a student tries to solve the problem themselves by borrowing from a peer? If you only realize you're unprepared right as the exam starts and don't have a chance to ask a neighbor—say, in a small seminar class where nobody carries doubles—wouldn't it be better to just raise your hand, apologize to the teacher, and ask to borrow one?

This habit of handing out spare pencils is a disaster, though, if you don't mind me saying, you're partially responsible for it yourself. There is no sense in continuing to lend tools to students who have proven themselves so unreliable that they won't even return them once finished; by refusing to lend, you're actually sending a message about the importance of reliability and "reputation," both of which are factors people consider when deciding whether or not to help you out in the first place.

Me neither. 🙂 That is exactly why I keep a whole drawer full of extra pens ready for anyone who finds themselves empty-handed. I have no interest in wasting my energy on people who already have everything they need.

We shouldn't be teaching students that showing up to class without their supplies is no big deal, because that kind of attitude just sets them up for failure later on.

.
This is a heartfelt message intended for everyone shaping our children's futures—from teachers and principals to parents, counselors, journalists, and school inspectors.

If someone sits there without a pen and ends up burning through their precious exam time just searching for one, asking to borrow one, or scrambling to find a solution, then honestly, that’s where I start to have a real issue. It’s like watching someone lose the race before it even starts because they weren't prepared for the basics.

I find myself wondering which path would be easier for me: simply handing him a pen, or getting caught up in an exhausting argument with the people listed above. You hit the nail right on the head. 🙂

Will he end up being an idiot? Well, that would be quite a shame. 🙂

How exactly are you planning to spend your time dealing with those students who carry pens if you claim every single discussion will be treated as a potential cheating attempt? Are you going to hand out failing grades on the spot, distribute tests to whoever talks before the bell rings, and just give everyone an F? Or am I mistaken—are you actually prohibited from punishing academic dishonesty during assessments?

Linda Price5 said:How exactly are you planning to spend your time dealing with those students who carry pens if you claim every single discussion will be treated as a potential cheating attempt? Are you going to hand out failing grades on the spot, distribute tests to whoever talks before the bell rings, and just give everyone an F? Or am I mistaken—are you actually prohibited from punishing academic dishonesty during assessments?

Laughter

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Forgive me, 😂

Forgive me.
I honestly can't tell if you're being serious right now, though it seems pretty obvious that you are.

I have no desire to be dodging flying pens in my classroom. I don't want to be chasing kids around trying to find a mechanical pencil for an exam—or even a standard one, which is arguably worse. Then the erasers start flying, and occasionally, white-out ends up airborne too.

You aren't supposed to prevent a student from actually taking their test. You shouldn't be wasting precious instructional time by sending them out into the hallway to hunt through other classrooms for supplies, nor should you be docking points arbitrarily. And for God's sake, you can't just slap a failing grade on someone for cheating if they don't even have a pen to write with in the first place, right?

Furthermore, you shouldn't be stripping away points if a student is working hard at home, especially when you are specifically grading their mastery of grammar or literature standards.

Actually, I suppose you can. Right up until someone files a formal complaint.