What are the results of your spiritual journey?

bluemason3 said:That’s assuming karma and karmic debt actually exist, of course.

But look, man, you aren't hanging out in the science subforum anymore—you've wandered straight into the spirituality section. 🙂

David Vaughn75 said:But look, man, you aren't hanging out in the science subforum anymore—you've wandered straight into the spirituality section. 🙂

spirituality isn't about consensus either

bluemason3 said:spirituality isn't about consensus either

And even if there *was* some massive consensus, you still couldn't actually prove karma exists, could you?

Zachary Gonzalez8 said:I mean, sure, you’ve got people who light up a joint here and there before hitting the hay. For them, it’s just a way to finally shut their brain off and get some solid sleep.

Look, I respect that... it's their call and their choice, for sure. But the thing is, these people are reaching for something outside of themselves—they're using an external tool just to unwind or to help them drift off. It’s ultimately an illusion because it’s coming from the outside. By taking that approach, they aren't building any real internal foundation; they aren't finding peace within, so they can't actually access it.
And what happens if they don't have a joint handy? What then? Do they just lie there staring at the ceiling all night, restless and anxious? If someone can't find or feel peace internally, they end up hunting for it in a joint or through other external things. The real question we have to ask is: why can't they find that peace inside themselves without needing various substances? To me, the reason is always the same—it's an ESCAPE from oneself. That inherent human weakness leads us to constantly follow the path of least resistance—basically, a lack of will to truly face ourselves, our fears, our losses, our desires, our selfishness, and our passions. It's about having the courage to take off the mask and be completely stripped bare, right down to the core.
That’s why people rely on a joint to relax—because they think it's the only way to get that sense of calm. But it’s a hollow peace. It isn't lasting; it just provides a fake sense of relaxation instead of the true, lasting satisfaction and deep inner peace that a person only feels once they honestly commit to the path of self-discovery.

David Vaughn75 said:And even if there *was* some massive consensus, you still couldn't actually prove karma exists, could you?

Since there isn't a consensus among spiritual leaders—nor any actual proof—why should writing about spirituality automatically mean you have to assume or accept the concept of karma?

Isn't the whole point really about letting go of any expectation regarding the outcome?

bluemason3 said:Since there isn't a consensus among spiritual leaders—nor any actual proof—why should writing about spirituality automatically mean you have to assume or accept the concept of karma?

I'm operating under the assumption that karma exists—you're the one trying to argue against the possibility here.

David Vaughn75 said:The ultimate judge for any Guru exam is God himself 😎

Most gurus have absolutely no clue what they're getting themselves into.
If they start leading people down the wrong path, karma is going to hit them like a freight train.
Let's be real: providing spiritual guidance is probably the heaviest responsibility a person can ever take on.

And besides, who’s to say God even judges at all? Does it even make sense to talk about "choice" if God is constantly stepping in to oppose what we decide?

Look, karma isn't some cosmic punishment system. I mean, seriously, who would be punishing us, and what's in it for them? What do *we* actually gain from being punished? It's more like a feedback loop—a way to see the consequences of our own choices so we can actually move forward.

The weight of spiritual guidance is massive, sure, but it’s even harder to sit around waiting until you've mastered everything before you try to help someone else. Both teachers and students are going to trip up sometimes—it's inevitable. The real goal is just making sure there's long-term progress and that everyone actually finds some joy in the process.

vividnomad73 said:Isn't the whole point really about letting go of any expectation regarding the outcome?

Exactly. 🙂

Nicholas Gonzalez8 said:And besides, who’s to say God even judges at all? Does it even make sense to talk about "choice" if God is constantly stepping in to oppose what we decide?

Look, karma isn't some cosmic punishment system. I mean, seriously, who would be punishing us, and what's in it for them? What do *we* actually gain from being punished? It's more like a feedback loop—a way to see the consequences of our own choices so we can actually move forward.

The weight of spiritual guidance is massive, sure, but it’s even harder to sit around waiting until you've mastered everything before you try to help someone else. Both teachers and students are going to trip up sometimes—it's inevitable. The real goal is just making sure there's long-term progress and that everyone actually finds some joy in the process.

Exactly. 🙂

Exactly. Besides, who gets to decide what counts as a punishment versus a reward? What defines "good" or "bad" when everyone experiences their life circumstances so differently?
And how can we even call something a mistake when everything is working out perfectly, and we're receiving exactly what we need at every single moment?

Nicholas Gonzalez8 said:And besides, who’s to say God even judges at all? Does it even make sense to talk about "choice" if God is constantly stepping in to oppose what we decide?

Look, karma isn't some cosmic punishment system. I mean, seriously, who would be punishing us, and what's in it for them? What do *we* actually gain from being punished? It's more like a feedback loop—a way to see the consequences of our own choices so we can actually move forward.

The weight of spiritual guidance is massive, sure, but it’s even harder to sit around waiting until you've mastered everything before you try to help someone else. Both teachers and students are going to trip up sometimes—it's inevitable. The real goal is just making sure there's long-term progress and that everyone actually finds some joy in the process.

Exactly. 🙂

I mean, look at Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and all those ancient Middle Eastern religions.

Plus, even in Hinduism, sometimes God gets bored with some demon and just decides to descend to Earth to take them out personally.

Anthony Cook8 said:Exactly. Besides, who gets to decide what counts as a punishment versus a reward? What defines "good" or "bad" when everyone experiences their life circumstances so differently?
And how can we even call something a mistake when everything is working out perfectly, and we're receiving exactly what we need at every single moment?

I'm with you on this. Everything is perfect 🙂 except when the mind gets involved. The mind comes in with all these conditioned ideas of what perfection should look like, and no matter how it tries to frame things, it always ends up being polarized and fleeting. It’s totally impossible for the mind to grasp, and honestly, words just can't touch it because language itself is limiting, no matter how well it tries to describe an infinite "dimension."
Everything is unfolding exactly as it should, and there’s really no way for anyone to run from it or save themselves from it. There’s no need to flee, search, or seek salvation...

Escaping, seeking salvation, or searching—those are just extra layers of illusion we pile on later. They just weigh down that "person" who was already free and Presence/Awareness long ago, which is simply awake and free through all of it. Awareness just flows right along with whatever happens...

Anthony Cook8 said:Exactly. Besides, who gets to decide what counts as a punishment versus a reward? What defines "good" or "bad" when everyone experiences their life circumstances so differently?
And how can we even call something a mistake when everything is working out perfectly, and we're receiving exactly what we need at every single moment?

That is fundamentally incorrect; it is nothing more than an ego trap. If everything weren't unfolding exactly as it is, our current ego wouldn't even exist.

That is precisely why everything seems perfect to him. Every single event in his past has served only to reinforce his own existence.

Ryan Wilson2 said:That is fundamentally incorrect; it is nothing more than an ego trap. If everything weren't unfolding exactly as it is, our current ego wouldn't even exist.

That is precisely why everything seems perfect to him. Every single event in his past has served only to reinforce his own existence.

Everything really is perfect. Once we finally accept ourselves and stop fighting, all that internal junk we've collected starts to fall away... the illusions dissolve and we find our way back to who we truly are. We aren't actually learning anything new; we're just stripping away the lies.

Anthony Cook8 said:Everything really is perfect. Once we finally accept ourselves and stop fighting, all that internal junk we've collected starts to fall away... the illusions dissolve and we find our way back to who we truly are. We aren't actually learning anything new; we're just stripping away the lies.

Look, you absolutely have to internalize—really wake up to—the Knowledge first. That’s the only way to strip away the ignorance (those little ego-driven delusions about what the Truth actually is and how it works). You can't just have something fall away without replacing it with what was missing in the first place. Otherwise, the ignorance stays. It's a steady process, moving through layers until you hit even the most subtle impressions. Any pause along that Path feels like "idling" or just spinning your wheels. At the end of the day, an unenlightened person can't just power through and enlighten themselves. You might be able to pull a mental somersault, sure, but that isn't true annihilation of the mind. It's a law of nature. We are fundamentally tied to the unity of two principles: the masculine (that false, individualistic ego) and the feminine (the One-in-multitude, which is held exclusively by the Perfect ones or those who have realized God—though the rest of us carry it latently, buried under endless layers of impressions). And since even those Perfect beings didn't achieve it alone, but through the "touch" of Sadhguru, no one can reach that state solo. It's simply impossible. You can work your way to the very edge of your mental impressions—people like that are known as saints—but from there, all that's left is that single "touch" from a real Sadhguru.

nimbleranger5 said:Yeah, that's true... it's a sharp observation. The source matters immensely, but if you pick the wrong one... well, damn, you messed up. It means you listened to your ego (your head) instead. But honestly, even that isn't all bad—at least you learned something new about yourself and life. You learn, you mess up, you live, and life keeps moving. Eventually, you start becoming more sensitive to that voice coming from deep within, from your heart. I truly believe the heart is the seat of consciousness, and when you need to make a choice, you'll make the right one because you'll feel it internally. It'll just feel like the true, honest path. The answer will always be fast and intuitive; there won't be any room for useless overthinking because the answer will just bubble up instantly from the depths of your Being. The other thing is, most of the time, we don't actually *want* to listen to that voice. We resist it and try to over-philosophize everything—that's where the ego loop happens. But everyone—and I mean everyone, I'm being serious here—knows, or rather feels, what is truly good for them as an individual.
That's why it's best to stay in alignment with yourself; then you can quickly tell which answers are coming from your heart and which ones are just the ego.

http://www.newscenter.com/electric-heart.html

The heart is the most powerful tool in the body, producing an electromagnetic pulse 100,000 times stronger than the brain. The heart is the center of consciousness, radiating a field of pure awareness into the space around us. The heart speaks to us 24 hours a day, guiding us through every situation. Let's just surrender to the guidance of the heart and higher consciousness.

The question is, do you *really* want to meet Him? Is your heart open to His love? If the answer is yes, then you don't have to go anywhere; it's enough to just be exactly where you are right now. Jesus Christ isn't anywhere else but inside you—in your core, in your heart. But to meet Him, you first have to shut off that mental chatter that runs in your head 24/7.
And if you really feel the need to go somewhere, then go inward. Go into your own inner space, be still, and find peace with yourself.

Unless you’ve managed to completely tune out everything you've been told since kindergarten—you know, all that talk about how alcohol destroys families, wrecks your health, and is just generally toxic—then you're basically acting like a blank slate. Like, as if none of those warnings actually stuck or shaped your perspective at all, right?

But seriously, let's be real for a second: who actually finds long-term happiness through abusing drugs or alcohol? Does anyone actually? Are those people truly happy? Using substances just to chase a high or to numb out is just another way of running away from reality—and honestly, it might be the most destructive escape there is, because it trashes both your physical and mental health at the same time. 🤷

I’m convinced that if you just listen to your heart, you can't really go wrong—it knows what’s best for you. Of course, we learn through trial and error, and yeah, society, our culture, and the people around us definitely condition us in a lot of ways. But once you finally experience the damage firsthand—like realizing, "Hey, alcohol is actually killing me"—the only thing keeping you trapped in that cycle of addiction is your own ego. It's that craving for that temporary hit of euphoria that keeps us acting like slaves to outside influences, just chasing that next high.

Ugh, seriously... people go out searching for the Truth, but goodness, they don't even want to hear it when it speaks. I'm guilty of it too, sometimes. Because then what? Who decides that if you choose A, you absolutely have to do B? The Truth demands action and actual change, and let's be real—we just don't feel like doing the work. We'd much rather stay stuck in our comfort zones, playing the victim with excuses like "I can't," "I don't know," or "What's the neighbors going to think?" Or worse, we run off into this mental spirituality that—if it isn't rooted in the body and actual lived experience—ends up being nothing more than a concept floating around in our heads, just like every other thing we've been taught.

But hey, at least we get to suffer "magnificently," right?

Tyler Baker6 said:Ugh, seriously... people go out searching for the Truth, but goodness, they don't even want to hear it when it speaks. I'm guilty of it too, sometimes. Because then what? Who decides that if you choose A, you absolutely have to do B? The Truth demands action and actual change, and let's be real—we just don't feel like doing the work. We'd much rather stay stuck in our comfort zones, playing the victim with excuses like "I can't," "I don't know," or "What's the neighbors going to think?" Or worse, we run off into this mental spirituality that—if it isn't rooted in the body and actual lived experience—ends up being nothing more than a concept floating around in our heads, just like every other thing we've been taught.

But hey, at least we get to suffer "magnificently," right?

I'm right there with you.
That pretty much sums it up perfectly—you really hit the nail on the head with that one.👍

Michael Gonzalez77 said:Look, you absolutely have to internalize—really wake up to—the Knowledge first. That’s the only way to strip away the ignorance (those little ego-driven delusions about what the Truth actually is and how it works). You can't just have something fall away without replacing it with what was missing in the first place. Otherwise, the ignorance stays. It's a steady process, moving through layers until you hit even the most subtle impressions. Any pause along that Path feels like "idling" or just spinning your wheels. At the end of the day, an unenlightened person can't just power through and enlighten themselves. You might be able to pull a mental somersault, sure, but that isn't true annihilation of the mind. It's a law of nature. We are fundamentally tied to the unity of two principles: the masculine (that false, individualistic ego) and the feminine (the One-in-multitude, which is held exclusively by the Perfect ones or those who have realized God—though the rest of us carry it latently, buried under endless layers of impressions). And since even those Perfect beings didn't achieve it alone, but through the "touch" of Sadhguru, no one can reach that state solo. It's simply impossible. You can work your way to the very edge of your mental impressions—people like that are known as saints—but from there, all that's left is that single "touch" from a real Sadhguru.

There are just too many words like "must" and "impossible" for my liking... In my experience, concepts like obligation, impossibility, or even "universal truth" have faded away. It's all just trivial chatter 😁..

Anthony Cook8 said:There are just too many words like "must" and "impossible" for my liking... In my experience, concepts like obligation, impossibility, or even "universal truth" have faded away. It's all just trivial chatter 😁..

It’s similar to those descriptions where people lean on imagination or a fictional version of enlightenment instead of experiencing the real thing.
If we’re just talking about semantics, then it isn't a "problem" in the way humans usually define it. On the flip side, you could call it what it actually is: classic self-deception. This happens inside a person's psychological bubble—it happens to everyone, really—but it hits those with vivid imaginations even harder, especially when they fuel that fantasy with intense psychological drivers. But since nothing is ever truly mandatory (and it really isn't), you eventually move past that too.

When someone hits an absolute abyss before reaching enlightenment, there is simply no amount of mental gymnastics that can leap over it—that’s the paradox of the leap. But, naturally, the nature of Wholeness isn't going to change just because someone's semantic or categorical definitions don't align with it. The continuation of that solution lies within Sadhguru or the One-in-multitude.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:It’s similar to those descriptions where people lean on imagination or a fictional version of enlightenment instead of experiencing the real thing.
If we’re just talking about semantics, then it isn't a "problem" in the way humans usually define it. On the flip side, you could call it what it actually is: classic self-deception. This happens inside a person's psychological bubble—it happens to everyone, really—but it hits those with vivid imaginations even harder, especially when they fuel that fantasy with intense psychological drivers. But since nothing is ever truly mandatory (and it really isn't), you eventually move past that too.

When someone hits an absolute abyss before reaching enlightenment, there is simply no amount of mental gymnastics that can leap over it—that’s the paradox of the leap. But, naturally, the nature of Wholeness isn't going to change just because someone's semantic or categorical definitions don't align with it. The continuation of that solution lies within Sadhguru or the One-in-multitude.

I didn't quite catch the point of this post... I just wanted to say that living in ignorance is actually full of possibilities...

Anthony Cook8 said:I didn't quite catch the point of this post... I just wanted to say that living in ignorance is actually full of possibilities...

My point was that you can't just "shed ignorance" without actual learning—or what we might call expanding your consciousness. Think of it as de-identifying from those deep-seated mental impressions, which are really just Maya. But look, when we're talking about the final stage—completely freeing consciousness from those impressions—you can't just wish it into existence through pure imagination. In fact, using imagination too early in a spiritual journey often leads people straight into self-deception. They start convinced they've reached enlightenment. Honestly, even on a forum like this, you'll find people claiming to be enlightened just as often as you'll find them anywhere else in the world. It doesn't really matter.
I was building on what you said about how "nothing is mandatory"—meaning, sure, you don't *have* to snap out of a delusion immediately. In a natural sense, a misconception eventually gets overcome, and you "move on." How or when that happens isn't the priority, because time isn't a factor in the grand scheme, though life itself certainly feels like it has an imaginary duration.