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Doing business with USA member states

Started by Henry Edwards33 · · 👁 21 views · 1.5K replies

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Participants Henry Edwards33ruggedmaker2Jack YoungRichard Howard55Ethan Mitchell4Nathan Cox25Nicole Lee6Raymond Martinez10Drew Rogers6stormygardener44Ashley Ramirez4amberbadger17silverviper44Ryan Wilson2ruggednomad5Brenda Chase3Christian Cruz41Patrick Peterson49Chris Hayes16Nicholas Sanchez85Zachary White17Kimberly Harris6gentlepilot45rowdyscout8 …
Carol Price4 Carol Price4 Regular
380 messages
joined Nov 2019
#1421 ·
Drew Rogers6 said:So I called the IRS, and they're telling me the sales tax filing is due in month 8—but then Customs is out here saying Intrastat happens in month 9! 🙂

Intrastat is definitely September—no debate there—but hey, if your local Police Department told you August, just go with it and call it a day... every branch handles things differently!👍
Drew Rogers6 Drew Rogers6 Active Member
61 messages
joined Oct 2013
#1422 ·
When does a business actually have to register for VAT within a European Union member state? I know every single country plays by its own set of rules and different legislation, but I need at least a few solid examples to work with here. We aren't dealing with real estate rentals, construction, or travel agencies—none of that. It's mostly just providing transport services to other businesses within the EU and picking up goods from other EU taxpayers. Any thoughts, ruggedmaker2?
ruggedmaker2 ruggedmaker2 Regular
469 messages
joined Mar 2018
#1423 ·
It all boils down to where you’re actually operating. You really have to dig into the specific laws of each individual country.
The IRS has already covered parts of this regarding certain European Union member states, so you might want to go hunt down those articles. I bet plenty of other trade journals have done the same.

A lot of this depends on the nitty-gritty details of your specific situation.
Terms like "transportation" and "acquisition" are way too vague to be useful. What actually matters is what the law defines as the point of delivery or the location where the service is officially performed.

In our experience, we haven't had to register anywhere yet—not even back when we were doing sub-contracting work (specifically over in Canada).

Honestly, the safest bet is to just shoot an email directly to the tax authorities in whatever country you're looking at. That’s how you’ll get the most accurate info without any guesswork.
Nicole Lee6 Nicole Lee6 Regular
252 messages
joined Jun 2007
#1424 ·
On July 8, 2016, the local Police Department issued an official opinion regarding tire repair services provided by a taxpayer based in the European Union. I’m going to paste a section of that opinion here:

Under the provisions of Section 7, Subsection 1 of the Law, specifically regarding the delivery of goods as defined in Section 4, Subsection 1, Item 1, we are looking at the actual transfer of the right to dispose of tangible property in its capacity as an owner. It’s a fundamental legal distinction that people often overlook, but when you dig into the statutory language, the intent is quite clear.

According to the specific provisions laid out in Section 8, Subsection 4 of the Value Added Tax regulations, there is a very particular rule we have to contend with. It states that if a single transaction simultaneously carries the characteristics of both a delivery of goods and the performance of a service, things get complicated. You can't just pick one and call it a day; the tax code demands you account for how these two elements overlap within that one single transaction. When you're trying to categorize these things correctly, you really have to look at the actual economic substance of the transaction. It isn't just about what's written on the surface level; you have to take the true intent of the parties involved into account. If you ignore the underlying economic reality and the actual will of the people signing the contract, you’re essentially flying blind. What exactly is this supposed to mean? There used to be a St.5 entry right here that laid it all out clearly, but they scrubbed it from the records back on January 1st, 2014.

The designated place of delivery for goods. It’s a valid question, though I feel like we often overlook the finer details of how these things are classified. When you look at the actual guidelines regarding what isn't considered part of the standard shipment or transport process, there are specific categories that just don't qualify. It's about understanding where the responsibility of the carrier ends and where the individual's liability begins. If we aren't looking closely at those distinctions, we're bound to run into issues later on. The location where goods are officially considered delivered, strictly in accordance with the provisions set forth in Article 12 of the Law, is a critical distinction that often gets overlooked in these discussions. But I have a signed release form right here!

Let’s take a moment to actually look at the fine print regarding how services are taxed, because if you don't pay attention to Article 17, Section 1, you're basically asking for an audit. According to the tax code, when we're talking about where a service is officially "performed" for a business entity, the rule of thumb is that it's wherever that business is headquartered. It seems straightforward enough on the surface, right? But then—and this is where they love to trip you up—if that business is operating through a permanent establishment in a different location than its main headquarters, the tax jurisdiction shifts to that specific branch instead. It sounds like a simple distinction, but it’s a massive headache for anyone trying to track compliance. And just in case things get even more convoluted? If there isn't a formal headquarters or a permanent establishment to point to, the law defaults to the recipient's primary residence or their usual place of business. It’s a layered system designed to ensure the government gets its cut regardless of how much you try to move the goalposts. It’s tedious, it’s overly structured, and honestly, it feels like they've built a maze just to make sure no one escapes the tax man.

Based on what’s been laid out here, it’s my firm belief that we aren't looking at a single transaction, but rather two distinct events occurring simultaneously. We have one clear delivery of goods—specifically, the sale of a brand-new tire—and then we have a separate service component, which is the actual labor involved in mounting that tire onto the customer's vehicle. It's two different things entirely.

Based on how things work under current Value Added Tax regulations, when you're paying for a service like getting a new tire mounted, the tax rules follow a pretty standard principle. Basically, the location where the service is officially considered to have taken place is determined by the business headquarters of the person or company receiving the service. It’s all about where the recipient is based.

Look, I’ve been digging through the paperwork again, and honestly, it’s enough to give anyone a headache. If you're an American business owner providing services—let's say you're out there mounting a set of new tires for a client—and that client is based somewhere in the European Union or even a third country, you can't just wing it. You have to be incredibly careful about how you handle the tax side of things. Under the current tax laws, if you want to apply the reverse charge mechanism—basically shifting the tax liability onto the recipient of the service per the standard legal statutes—you absolutely must secure proof that they are actually registered tax entities. You can't just take their word for it. You need documentation in hand to justify why you aren't collecting the tax upfront. It’s a tedious process, but if you don't follow the rules to the letter, you're the one left holding the bag when the auditors come knocking. It's frustratingly bureaucratic, but that's just how the system works.

Therefore, As an American taxpayer, I’ve been thinking quite a bit about the complexities involved when you're dealing with service fees—specifically regarding installation work. When you've actually completed the job, there's a whole process to navigate with the IRS to ensure everything is accounted for correctly. It isn't always as straightforward as just sending an invoice and calling it a day; you have to be meticulous about how those services are reported to stay on the right side of the tax code. When you're dealing with tax obligations for business entities coming in from other European Union member states or even third-party countries, things get a little complicated regarding how invoices are handled. For instance, if a taxpayer is issuing an invoice for services rendered, they aren't going to be tacking on the local American Value Added Tax. Instead, the accounting shifts to accommodate the specific cross-border regulations that apply when you're dealing with international clients. It’s one of those bureaucratic hurdles that makes you want to pull your hair out, but it's all part of the standard procedure for keeping the books straight under current tax laws. They're going to implement a transfer of tax liability. Under the provisions of Article 17, Section 1 of the Tax Code, we are designating the service recipient as the responsible party. Just a heads-up for everyone following this: when an American taxpayer handles a bill under these specific circumstances, they are legally required to clearly mark the invoice with the phrase "reverse charge" or its equivalent to indicate the transfer of tax liability. It’s a critical distinction that shouldn't be overlooked if you want to stay on the right side of the IRS.

Furthermore, When it comes to determining the tax jurisdiction for goods that aren't actually being shipped or physically transported to a customer—you know, those tricky inventory transfers or on-site handovers—the rule is pretty straightforward, though people love to overcomplicate it. The place of taxation is simply wherever those goods are physically located at the exact moment the delivery takes place. It’s common sense, really, if you strip away all the bureaucratic noise.Look, let’s get this straight because people seem to be getting tripped up on the basics. When we are talking about the taxation point for delivering new car tires—specifically when an American taxpayer is supplying these goods to other taxpayers within the European Union or even out to third countries—it all boils down to one simple rule: the place of taxation is wherever those damn tires are physically located at the exact moment the delivery happens. In this specific scenario, since the goods are sitting right here in the States at the time of sale, that's where the tax obligation lands. According to Article 12 of the Law, the American taxpayer is the one on the hook. It's not some complicated shell game; it's just basic jurisdictional logic. When you're putting together the invoice for this specific delivery, you absolutely have to calculate and clearly state the American Value Added Tax. There’s no cutting corners here..


Look, I’ll be the first to admit it—I’m not exactly a genius when it comes to navigating this mess, and frankly, I’m at a complete loss as to how I should even proceed from here.

Since January 1st, 2014, they’ve gone ahead and struck that specific section—Article 8, Paragraph 5—right out of the Value Added Tax regulations. I recall someone—I think it was Larry Phillips2—bringing up that whole headache regarding adjustments for boundary assets. He was debating whether a correction should be classified as a delivery of goods or a rendered service. His take was that it all hinges on what actually makes up the bulk of the invoice; essentially, you look at which portion carries more weight, the physical goods or the services provided, once you cross that 50% threshold. It’s one of those technicalities that can really throw a wrench in your accounting if you aren't careful. So, I was digging through the latest guidance from the IRS regarding the 4/14 interpretation, and it turns out they’ve clarified that auto repairs are officially classified as a completed service. This means the entire invoice falls under Article 17—you know, the reverse charge mechanism for services listed on the ZP form. Honestly, this is a bit of a headache because it’s exactly how I’ve been billing my foreign clients all along. I made sure to be incredibly thorough with them; I always had them sign a formal shipping declaration and attached the VIES verification printouts just to cover my bases. It feels like I've been doing things by the book, but now that the official word is out, I'm just sitting here wondering if I should have been even more cautious.

The Police Department keeps citing Article 12 when goods aren't being shipped, but according to Article 41;

(1) The following are exempt from Value Added Tax:
a) supplies of goods which the seller, or the person acquiring the goods, or another person on their behalf, ships or transports from the domestic territory to another European Union member state to another taxable person or a legal entity that is not a taxable person but acts as such in that other European Union member state,


Look, if I have the shipping statement, then those parts actually left the US under the buyer's arrangement and were installed in the car he drove right out of the country. Why on earth should I be forced to tie myself to Article 12 of the Law?!?!

Perhaps the solution is to split the labor from the materials on the invoice—applying Article 17 to the labor and Article 41 to the parts—so that the invoice goes to the ZP in two separate columns (services performed vs. goods delivered)? What’s really eating at me here is whether the client will report that same invoice as received services and an acquisition of goods. Will they even realize what happened since the invoice is in English and applies exemptions based on two different grounds? It feels like we're just overcomplicating things unnecessarily. If we don't report it the same way they do, I suspect we're going to run into trouble....

So, which route would you all take;
1. Just report the entire invoice as a service performed based on Article 17, just like we've always done.
2. Split the invoice into labor (Article 17) and materials (Article 41), issue it without VAT, and just pray the foreign client reports it the same way on their end (acquisition + services).
3. Stick to that tire shop example: link the labor to Article 17 and don't show VAT, but show VAT on the individual parts?
🙂😵🤦
Brian Campbell36 Brian Campbell36 Active Member
159 messages
joined Apr 2013
#1425 ·
Carol Price4 said:Come on, walk me through this a bit more...

An American carrier bills an Austrian client 10,000 euros—that part is simple enough.

Now, let's say those Austrian costs—tolls, fuel, all that stuff—add up to 8,000 euros. You’re saying the bills are made out to the American carrier, but who actually settles them???

The Austrian client wires over 2,000 euros, which is fine, but that leaves 8,000 euros sitting open on the IRA.

If the Austrian handles the bills over in Austria, you just book them in the URU to clear those expenses—and at the same time, you clear the IRA in kind.

At the end of the day, 10,000 goes into the ZP because that's what the IRA shows, regardless of how you choose to settle it.

Could someone please clarify for me:

From what I have gathered, an American trucking company does not concern itself with having the liquid funds available for fuel or tolls; instead, those costs are handled directly by the Austrian firm for whom they provide transport services. The difference in funds is then transferred to the American carrier's foreign currency account. However, the invoices for these specific expenses are made out to the American carrier. Am I required to record these invoices through the URU as you explained and report them via the VAT and VAT returns? If so, under which specific line item in the VAT return should this be done, or can I simply record these costs as an expense and receipt in kind using the general ledger?
Furthermore, how should I record the incoming wire transfer and its subsequent conversion into USD?

Thank you in advance!!
Larry Phillips2 Larry Phillips2 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Oct 2016
#1426 ·
I just got slapped with an interest charge from one of my suppliers in the European Union because I missed some payment deadlines. I'm trying to figure out how to book this—should I be looking at KTO 2210 P or 4 D?
Which form am I supposed to use for interest expenses?
ruggedmaker2 ruggedmaker2 Regular
469 messages
joined Mar 2018
#1427 ·
Nope.
Arthur Bishop6 Arthur Bishop6 Member
46 messages
joined Mar 2013
#1428 ·
I’ve got a question. You guys probably covered this already, but I don't have the damn time to dig through all your old posts. It’s about the threshold for mandatory sales tax registration. I’m working with a dental technician who isn't registered for sales tax yet. He was buying supplies and materials from Austria throughout 2015, totaling $5000 in goods, and now in 2016 he's sitting at about $24667 so far. Am I even interpreting this threshold correctly? I'm just looking at the current year, but then I stumble upon articles saying you have to factor in the previous year too. Are we talking a two-year lookback for the threshold? If that's the case, my client has already blown past it.
Please, I need an answer. Also, does anyone actually track this stuff to catch people who cross the limit without getting a sales tax ID?

Thanks
vividscout18 vividscout18 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Mar 2017
#1429 ·
Good morning!

We just received an invoice from a vendor over in Germany for a web application subscription, and it’s marked with a reverse charge note.
Since this is my first time dealing with an international vendor and the whole tax liability transfer process, I was hoping someone with more experience could point me in the right direction.
Specifically, what exchange rate should I be using when I record the service amount for sales tax purposes and when filling out the tax forms? Should I be using the mid-market rate from the Federal Reserve on the date of the invoice, or is there another standard?
Thanks in advance. Best regards,
Steven Anderson14 Steven Anderson14 Active Member
54 messages
joined Jul 2014
#1430 ·
vividscout18 said:Good morning!

We just received an invoice from a vendor over in Germany for a web application subscription, and it’s marked with a reverse charge note.
Since this is my first time dealing with an international vendor and the whole tax liability transfer process, I was hoping someone with more experience could point me in the right direction.
Specifically, what exchange rate should I be using when I record the service amount for sales tax purposes and when filling out the tax forms? Should I be using the mid-market rate from the Federal Reserve on the date of the invoice, or is there another standard?
Thanks in advance. Best regards,

(The Fed mid-market rate on the invoice date)
vividscout18 vividscout18 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Mar 2017
#1431 ·
Steven Anderson14 said:(The Fed mid-market rate on the invoice date)

Thanks a ton for the help.
Brandon Jackson4 Brandon Jackson4 Active Member
53 messages
joined Apr 2016
#1432 ·
I know the main focus here is doing business within the USA, but I couldn't find anything specifically regarding trade with third-party countries, so I was hoping someone could help me out.
An export invoice for services was issued to an international client located outside the USA, and a 25% sales tax was applied.

Where exactly does that tax get recorded on the sales tax return? I haven't been able to find a specific field for it... everything I see just mentions the USA.

Thanks in advance for any insight.
Carol Price4 Carol Price4 Regular
380 messages
joined Nov 2019
#1433 ·
Brandon Jackson4 said:I know the main focus here is doing business within the USA, but I couldn't find anything specifically regarding trade with third-party countries, so I was hoping someone could help me out.
An export invoice for services was issued to an international client located outside the USA, and a 25% sales tax was applied.

Where exactly does that tax get recorded on the sales tax return? I haven't been able to find a specific field for it... everything I see just mentions the USA.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

What exactly do you mean by "overseas buyer"—are we talking about an individual (B2C) or a corporation (B2B)?

If it's B2C, my guess is it's handled just like any other domestic sale to a local resident...
ruggedmaker2 ruggedmaker2 Regular
469 messages
joined Mar 2018
#1434 ·
Anyway, ever since we joined the USA, shipping goods or services within the USA has become one seamless thing, but anything headed to a third country is still treated as import/export just like it was back in the day.

So, what’s actually being billed on that invoice sent to a third country? And why on earth is VAT being charged—why isn't it exempt?

If it's a B2C deal, like Carol Price4 was saying, then you don't even list it as an export; you just treat it like any other standard taxable sale to a regular customer here in the States.
Dennis Williams40 Dennis Williams40 Member
19 messages
joined Jan 2018
#1435 ·
Wait, does anyone actually bother calculating VAT for third-party countries?
ruggedmaker2 ruggedmaker2 Regular
469 messages
joined Mar 2018
#1436 ·
Dennis Williams40 said:Wait, does anyone actually bother calculating VAT for third-party countries?

Yeah. All the time in B2C transactions.
Dennis Williams40 Dennis Williams40 Member
19 messages
joined Jan 2018
#1437 ·
Wait, seriously?

I seem to remember back before we joined the USA, I used to buy stuff online from the UK and there was zero sales tax involved... or does that rule about charging tax to customers from third countries only apply to services?
ruggedmaker2 ruggedmaker2 Regular
469 messages
joined Mar 2018
#1438 ·
Look, you can't really figure out if sales tax applies without knowing the gritty details.
Who’s doing the buying? Who are they buying from? Is the seller even registered for sales tax? And what exactly is being bought—is it even a taxable item to begin with?
Just be more specific here... what were you buying before, and who was the vendor? Was this a B2B deal or just standard B2C?
Maybe someone will actually remember how things used to work. Honestly, with how fast tax laws change in the US, who can say for sure what the rules were decades ago? 😁

If you were buying stuff through your own company back in the day, you wouldn't have seen sales tax on their invoice. To them, it was basically an export, which meant it was tax-exempt. But you still had to settle up with the US government—your company had to pay it, likely through some freight forwarder or whatever setup you had. Once that payment cleared, you'd claim it as an input credit, which pretty much wiped it out. Of course, everything still had to be logged in the books properly.
Trying to guess this stuff off the top of my head is a losing game.
Brandon Jackson4 Brandon Jackson4 Active Member
53 messages
joined Apr 2016
#1439 ·
Thanks for the clarification. So, if VAT is calculated on an export, I just list it on the tax return as a domestic sale under section II 3.

From what I gather, when dealing with real estate transactions, VAT always applies, regardless of whether it's a B2B or B2C deal.

In these instances, it all comes down to where the property is located. If the real estate is based here in the US, then VAT is mandatory, no matter who we're invoicing.
Dennis Williams40 Dennis Williams40 Member
19 messages
joined Jan 2018
#1440 ·
ruggedmaker2 said:Look, you can't really figure out if sales tax applies without knowing the gritty details.
Who’s doing the buying? Who are they buying from? Is the seller even registered for sales tax? And what exactly is being bought—is it even a taxable item to begin with?
Just be more specific here... what were you buying before, and who was the vendor? Was this a B2B deal or just standard B2C?
Maybe someone will actually remember how things used to work. Honestly, with how fast tax laws change in the US, who can say for sure what the rules were decades ago? 😁

If you were buying stuff through your own company back in the day, you wouldn't have seen sales tax on their invoice. To them, it was basically an export, which meant it was tax-exempt. But you still had to settle up with the US government—your company had to pay it, likely through some freight forwarder or whatever setup you had. Once that payment cleared, you'd claim it as an input credit, which pretty much wiped it out. Of course, everything still had to be logged in the books properly.
Trying to guess this stuff off the top of my head is a losing game.

No, no—I was buying as an individual. B2C.

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