Tax Policy Collapse: Front Page Headline from April 8, 2013

Chris Long12 said:Cause and effect.

1. It's a consequence, not the purpose.

2. Because that is just how the political system functions (voting, lobbying, political contributions, etc.). Power and control. They want to regulate every single aspect of society, so you end up with a mountain of agencies with questionable needs, ever-expanding budgets, and commissioned studies; then studies of those studies; and then studies about the studies of those studies. 🤣
A massive pile of new laws and political platforms, especially those "temporary" measures that never actually end, and so on.
But I suppose that isn't a conspiracy; it's just the nature of things, which has been historically evident in countless countries.

3. Well, it’s like that metaphorical monster with tentacles. And that famous Hobbesian work.
http://books.google.com/books/about/L...MC&redir_esc=y

4. Consequence, not purpose.

5. If that were true, it would mean this was directly coordinated with the government. But it isn't. Quite the opposite, actually—companies are fleeing high-tax jurisdictions and heavy regulations for places where they aren't.

Just as an attachment 😉
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...0-billion.html

Chris Long12 said:Cause and effect.

1. It's a consequence, not the purpose.

2. Because that is just how the political system functions (voting, lobbying, political contributions, etc.). Power and control. They want to regulate every single aspect of society, so you end up with a mountain of agencies with questionable needs, ever-expanding budgets, and commissioned studies; then studies of those studies; and then studies about the studies of those studies. 🤣
A massive pile of new laws and political platforms, especially those "temporary" measures that never actually end, and so on.
But I suppose that isn't a conspiracy; it's just the nature of things, which has been historically evident in countless countries.

3. Well, it’s like that metaphorical monster with tentacles. And that famous Hobbesian work.
http://books.google.com/books/about/L...MC&redir_esc=y

4. Consequence, not purpose.

5. If that were true, it would mean this was directly coordinated with the government. But it isn't. Quite the opposite, actually—companies are fleeing high-tax jurisdictions and heavy regulations for places where they aren't.

1. So, the consequence is just a buildup of bureaucracy and creating new retirees rather than a systemic policy? Interesting... but if politics doesn't run the country, what does?

2. So now politics *is* running things with specific goals and plans? And that still isn't a conspiracy?

Here’s a quick breakdown of what a conspiracy actually is:

"A conspiracy is a small group of people acting with the goal of working against the interests of the majority."

3. I'm on my phone here, but I assume you're implying I believe in some kind of reptilian overlords or something? No, I don't buy that. I believe in the malice of politicians who act with the intent to destroy things, all just to squeeze out a tiny bit of personal profit.

4. Consequence of what? Until I get a real answer, my take remains the same: it's all happening to eventually seize control of real estate, territory, and resources.

5. You can see I'm right; the US government acts in ways that make people want to flee and let everything fall apart, and in saying that, you've actually answered your own first point.

The summary of your answers is basically this:

The consequence is that politicians are corrupt, but that's not a conspiracy. Then what is it?

The summary of my answers:

A conspiracy is the result of a small group of people pushing through tax laws that hurt the masses, specifically designed to create increasing levels of insolvency and decay so they can swoop in and grab real estate, land, and resources.

And if you need proof, just look at the worst kinds of debt being run up by the likes of the federal government or what preceded them.

Haha, obviously sales are lagging now that they dropped the sales tax for hospitality by 10%. We aren't going to see things really picking up until the summer months hit. 🙂 Honestly, the service industry is probably the only sector in this whole country that actually functions reasonably well. It brings in massive revenue because, let's face it, for Americans, grabbing two coffees a day isn't just a habit—it’s a requirement. 🙂

Since the sales tax on that sector was slashed by about 60% (going from 25% down to 10%), the tax collection systems would need to find an additional 60% in new transaction volume just to break even and fill that budget hole. And there is absolutely no way that's happening.

The solution only arrives once the government starts acting in accordance with its actual financial capacity—which means spending significantly less than it does right now. It is far easier to balance the budget by cutting expenditures than by hiking taxes or levies. Relying on debt is just delaying the inevitable; you’re simply letting the interest accrue until the bill comes due, at which point the crisis will be exponentially worse. We just need the backbone to actually execute it. Ultimately, we will reach this point regardless; the only question is who will find the courage to face reality and act. It is better to initiate this process now while there is still some room for maneuvering around a minimalist budget. If we wait until creditors start dictating terms, we risk facing a series of illogical mandates that could collapse even the few healthy sectors of our economy left.

There’s a reason they call it a sovereign debt crisis

Nancy Alvarez82 said:Neither hikes in sales tax, nor the failure to eliminate zero-rated rates, nor aggressive digital auditing, nor the relentless hunt for tax evaders, nor freezing debtor assets, nor any of these debt restructuring schemes for citizens and businesses, nor even cracking down on corporate profit stripping has done a single thing to actually boost federal tax revenue.
In fact, revenues have plummeted quite drastically because the American public and the entire economy have been bled dry by these frantic, predatory tax hikes.
The inevitable fallout from this mess will be diminished social services, gutted pensions, mass layoffs, and a mounting pile of new national debt.

Basically... it’s a total CATASTROPHE.

To put it in the words of a politician whose party is merely the third-largest non-nepotistic entity left in Washington after the Democrats and Republicans—referring to a certain moderate lawmaker—he suggested that the people running this country ought to pick up a modern economics textbook once in a while.

And that is precisely where the truth lies; we are being led by people who are hopelessly stuck in the past, simply because the global economic landscape has shifted entirely since the last time they bothered to open a book.

I don't feel sorry for the people at all. Let them get fleeced. There were plenty of parties on the ballot, but voters always gravitate toward the same old names... so fine, let them enjoy the consequences.
There were actually parties with legitimate plans for financial recovery and actual experts in their ranks. Too bad they only make up maybe 2-3% of the field because Americans "maturely" decide that if it isn't the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, then it's nothing. All the others are seen as too small to matter. With that kind of mindset, we deserve exactly what we're getting.

David Parker44 said:I don't feel sorry for the people at all. Let them get fleeced. There were plenty of parties on the ballot, but voters always gravitate toward the same old names... so fine, let them enjoy the consequences.
There were actually parties with legitimate plans for financial recovery and actual experts in their ranks. Too bad they only make up maybe 2-3% of the field because Americans "maturely" decide that if it isn't the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, then it's nothing. All the others are seen as too small to matter. With that kind of mindset, we deserve exactly what we're getting.

That line of reasoning doesn't hold much water either. Are you suggesting that the average person is to blame simply because they didn't choose a slightly more competent thief from the pack? Is that what you're getting at? That I am personally responsible for these tax rates?
And please, spare me the talk about those minor parties with their tiny fraction of votes. They’re nothing but jokes who haven't accomplished anything concrete lately, either.
Unfortunately, this is just the reality we live in—no sane individual enters politics, because who would bother fighting through all those idiots?

I still don't get it, and honestly, I don't think I ever will. How the hell does the people (anywhere in the world, really, this isn't just about us) manage to screw up democracy so badly? They treat it like some broken appliance instead of what it actually is. It’s just pure chaos without a damn schedule.

A coward's ride on the train (American Rhapsody)

Amanda Allen4 said:It’s a simple equation: employment rates and wage levels are moving in opposite directions.

I don't really see it that way. Sure, maybe in the short term? But looking at the big picture, when companies are desperate for cheap labor, they eventually have to bump up those wages just to stay competitive. It climbs until it hits a certain ceiling, right?

Noah Gray2 said:I don't really see it that way. Sure, maybe in the short term? But looking at the big picture, when companies are desperate for cheap labor, they eventually have to bump up those wages just to stay competitive. It climbs until it hits a certain ceiling, right?

To put it more precisely...

In a recession with a legal minimum wage in place—then yeah, that's true.
On the flip side, when the economy is actually running normally, wages go up (specifically where employers are actually competing for workers, obviously).

google: LRAS&SRAS (classical vs. keynesian model)

briskdrifter3 said:That line of reasoning doesn't hold much water either. Are you suggesting that the average person is to blame simply because they didn't choose a slightly more competent thief from the pack? Is that what you're getting at? That I am personally responsible for these tax rates?
And please, spare me the talk about those minor parties with their tiny fraction of votes. They’re nothing but jokes who haven't accomplished anything concrete lately, either.
Unfortunately, this is just the reality we live in—no sane individual enters politics, because who would bother fighting through all those idiots?

David Parker44 is absolutely correct.
The fault lies entirely with the people. Americans constantly find themselves choosing between the Democratic Party or the Republican Party, despite the fact that other options actually exist.
Why do those alternatives always end up looking ridiculous? It’s because the Republican Party and the Democratic Party maintain a stranglehold on the media; whether it's the major networks or any new outlet trying to emerge, they are systematically caricatured and torn down... meanwhile, these self-proclaimed economic experts and business titans from the two major parties—who supposedly possess such profound expertise—are the very reason we are in this mess compared to the folks in the minor parties... honestly, a freshman economics student could likely do a better job than these so-called specialists from the two big parties who have been dismantling our prosperity for over twenty years with their decisions...
Americans remind me of that idiot in the movie *Idiocracy* who picks up a rock, knocks himself unconscious, wakes up, picks up the same rock, and knocks himself out all over again... that is exactly how we act, constantly picking between two snakes, the Democratic Party or the Republican Party...
Instead of searching for a third, fourth, or fifth option until we finally find someone decent, we just keep recycling the same old names.
The people are to blame, but the real tragedy is that they lack any true self-awareness.

@Nancy Alvarez82&David Parker44@

You guys have it wrong. All these political parties basically come from the same kitchen, and they’re running on a version of democracy that has absolutely nothing to do with how we actually imagine it working.

And honestly, I don't even buy into the whole election thing; it's just a massive show put on for the public.

America needs an honest dictator!

Maybe we've already missed the boat, but we’re definitely heading the wrong way. Back when we actually owned stuff instead of just watching it get stripped bare, we should have just pulled up the drawbridge and isolated ourselves. That's my take, anyway. Not gonna sit here and write a thesis on it because, frankly, I don't care. You reap what you sow, and I hate being beholden to anyone.

As I’m typing this, I’ve got the radio on in the background and the Republican Party is whining about the privatization of Wells Fargo and State Farm. IT DISGUSTS ME. Look, I’m against the privatization too, but at least I have the guts to say it. Those hacks who sold off half of America and looted the other half don't get a seat at the table to complain.

The people in power are useless. The Republican Party showed their true colors ages ago—they're a bunch of scum through and through (shout out to the rare exceptions, wherever they hide), and there isn't a decent alternative in sight, so we're basically screwed.

I happened to skim a few letters from Mr. Lesar addressed to some big shots—doesn't matter who—and his views wouldn't be half bad if I hadn't seen the rest. He’s asking for nonsense and clearly doesn't grasp the basics of how an economy actually works.

So, all I can say is: every man for himself.

I find myself in complete agreement with Samuel Collins when he suggests that you really ought to trust in your own horsepower; because even if you were operating within the most perfectly organized system imaginable, you’d still have to take matters into your own hands if you actually wanted things to improve...

Henry Hernandez7 said:1. So, the consequence is just a buildup of bureaucracy and creating new retirees rather than a systemic policy? Interesting... but if politics doesn't run the country, what does?

2. So now politics *is* running things with specific goals and plans? And that still isn't a conspiracy?

Here’s a quick breakdown of what a conspiracy actually is:

"A conspiracy is a small group of people acting with the goal of working against the interests of the majority."

3. I'm on my phone here, but I assume you're implying I believe in some kind of reptilian overlords or something? No, I don't buy that. I believe in the malice of politicians who act with the intent to destroy things, all just to squeeze out a tiny bit of personal profit.

4. Consequence of what? Until I get a real answer, my take remains the same: it's all happening to eventually seize control of real estate, territory, and resources.

5. You can see I'm right; the US government acts in ways that make people want to flee and let everything fall apart, and in saying that, you've actually answered your own first point.

The summary of your answers is basically this:

The consequence is that politicians are corrupt, but that's not a conspiracy. Then what is it?

The summary of my answers:

A conspiracy is the result of a small group of people pushing through tax laws that hurt the masses, specifically designed to create increasing levels of insolvency and decay so they can swoop in and grab real estate, land, and resources.

And if you need proof, just look at the worst kinds of debt being run up by the likes of the federal government or what preceded them.

I don't even know what you're trying to get at with that.
Let’s actually take a moment to think about this. The entire purpose—the actual goal—of tax policy isn't just to create a deficit or leave holes in the budget. It really isn't.
So, what does that actually mean? It means your tax policy—your precious little plan—is fundamentally broken, and you’re going to run straight into a wall when it comes to covering costs. You’ll be forced to go out and borrow money on the international markets at some massive interest rate because your credit rating is basically junk. Then, you end up looking completely incompetent, and I guess you can just watch as the opposition and the American people use that failure to tear you apart in the next election. This deficit isn't some random accident; it’s the direct, unintended consequence of your own tax policy. Though, I suppose it certainly wasn't the goal, was it?

So, I guess we’re finally admitting that politics actually operates with a specific goal and a deliberate plan now? Does that mean it isn't some massive conspiracy after all? Maybe. I don't know. It just seems like we're suddenly changing the narrative.

What kind of management is this—aimless, drifting, without a single shred of a goal or a coherent plan? It’s absolutely absurd. You have a client who was specifically elected to lead during their term, yet here we are. If you want to see what the current administration's actual goals and plans look like, you can clearly see them right there... I don't know, maybe I’m just being cynical, but looking at this whole plan... it’s a mess. It really is. I mean, if you actually sit down and read through what they’re proposing, it feels like they aren't even trying to be coherent. It’s all just noise. I guess some people might see this as a roadmap, but to me? It looks more like a collection of half-baked ideas thrown against a wall to see what sticks. Maybe they think the people won't notice the inconsistencies, but I disagree. I strongly disagree. It’s frankly insulting to anyone actually paying attention to the state of our economy and our institutions. You look at these projections and you just have to wonder where the logic went. It’s fragmented, it’s messy, and quite honestly, it’s infuriating. We deserve better than this level of incompetence. .
I honestly have no idea where you're seeing some kind of conspiracy in this plan. I mean, does the mere fact that someone is actually in charge bother you that much? Or is that just how it is?

Here is a little explanation regarding the word "urota":
A conspiracy is just a small group of people acting specifically to undermine the interests of the majority. I guess that’s just how it works. Maybe. But it's true! It's always a tiny clique working against everyone else!

Your interpretation. I mean, you’re really reaching with that one.
A broad definition:
Conspiracy or collusion... I guess that’s just a fancy way of describing a coordinated effort to bury the truth. It's about hiding what actually happened when someone decides to act outside the law, ignore regulations, or completely disregard the values held by the people. It's all about cover-ups. Maybe it's more than that, but that's how it looks to me!
I suppose there isn't much more to say on this... it’s just an even tighter way of putting things, I guess. Maybe that's the point? It feels a bit too constrained for my liking, though. Honestly, it's all just a different way of framing the same old mess.
A secret plot by a group to carry out something illegal or harmful.

Look, just because there’s a plan in place doesn't necessarily mean we're looking at some massive conspiracy. I guess maybe it's just... a plan? It doesn't always have to be a plot.

I’m on my phone right now, but I assume you're trying to feed me some nonsense about reptiles or whatever? No, I don't buy into that. I believe in the actual malice of politicians who work solely to destroy everything just to line their own pockets for a little extra profit. That's what's real.

Not even close. This is about describing how government overreach has managed to crawl its way into every single corner of our lives.
What you’re talking about here is plain and simple corruption. And look, you aren't wrong—it exists. There are definitely people involved. But I guess we shouldn't just paint everyone with the same brush.
Actually, it’s quite the opposite. There are definitely politicians out there who genuinely want to do something positive for others—I guess you could say they have good intentions. The real issue, though, is that they seem convinced the only way to achieve anything meaningful is through heavy-handed government policy.

And what exactly is the end goal here? Until someone actually gives me a straight answer, my take remains the same: it’s all just a massive power grab. It's clearly designed to seize control over real estate, territory, and our most vital resources.

Look, we are talking about taxes that just keep climbing higher and higher.
Companies simply cannot shoulder this massive tax burden—not to mention all the extra fees. It’s a direct consequence of these ever-increasing taxes..
And why are taxes rising? Because the government spends and spends (on subsidies, Amtrak, shipyards, Social Security, healthcare... you name it), they rack up debt, and then they have to pay it back.
I mean, I guess it isn't exactly their intention to drive companies into the ground, because that would be shooting themselves in the foot.
But let’s face it, those big multinationals just use offshore accounts anyway and keep most of their profits there.

You can see for yourself that I'm right; the American government is doing everything possible to make people flee and watch this country crumble, and with that point, you've basically answered your own first point.

The fallout from the crisis has been felt everywhere. Until now, the US had seen growth in both the number of businesses and the overall economy.

Your summary of my answers is roughly this:
The consequence is blamed on politicians being corrupt, but that isn't a conspiracy. So what is it then?

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying. Honestly, it doesn't even make sense on its own. 😕
As for what constitutes a conspiracy, you already wrote that above.

Summary of my answers:
A conspiracy is the result of actions by a tiny group of people who, at the expense of the majority, pass tax laws designed to increase insolvency and cause widespread failure, all with the ultimate goal of seizing property, territory, and resources.

And if you want proof, just look at the worst kind of debt being run up by the current administration, just like before them.

The reaction was right in the middle 🤣

Nancy Gomez26 said:The solution only arrives once the government starts acting in accordance with its actual financial capacity—which means spending significantly less than it does right now. It is far easier to balance the budget by cutting expenditures than by hiking taxes or levies. Relying on debt is just delaying the inevitable; you’re simply letting the interest accrue until the bill comes due, at which point the crisis will be exponentially worse. We just need the backbone to actually execute it. Ultimately, we will reach this point regardless; the only question is who will find the courage to face reality and act. It is better to initiate this process now while there is still some room for maneuvering around a minimalist budget. If we wait until creditors start dictating terms, we risk facing a series of illogical mandates that could collapse even the few healthy sectors of our economy left.

Good luck in the next life, 😉

If you want to slash government spending, you have to scrap a mountain of benefits and entitlements that the system is built upon (it’s all written in the Constitution regarding the social welfare state).
Any political party running on a platform like that is never going to get elected. So, we’re stuck in this loop where everyone is just trying to live off someone else's dime (both now and in the future).

And as long as government spending keeps climbing, even Samuel Collins is going to end up losing his shirt. 😁

Samuel Collins said:So I can only say, hope for the best and trust your gut!

The golden rule.
👍
Democracy on such a massive societal scale—and given everything it's applied to today—just doesn't work. There is no "one size fits all" policy; people and circumstances are far too diverse for that.

Henry Hernandez7 said:@Nancy Alvarez82&David Parker44@

You guys have it wrong. All these political parties basically come from the same kitchen, and they’re running on a version of democracy that has absolutely nothing to do with how we actually imagine it working.

And honestly, I don't even buy into the whole election thing; it's just a massive show put on for the public.

Yes, we are.
First off, if the people actually showed some teeth, this whole movie would be playing out differently. Just look at France... the second they tighten the screws, you've got riots in the streets. You can't mess with them. But here? Throw a tax hike at us—wrapped up in some "austerity" ideology or blaming the previous administration—and everyone just folds. Everyone just says, "Well, I guess we have to..." That's how it always goes. And don't even get me started on small business owners. Hit them with an extra 12% tax on profit distributions and not a single soul at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce even blinks.

Secondly, I’d implement penalties at the polls for anyone who doesn't show up... simple enough. $100 So don't bother voting then. You live in America, and that comes with a duty to the state and the people. If we did that, they wouldn't be playing games with pathetic 40% turnout numbers and letting a tiny minority decide the majority. The final result would look completely different.

Chris Long12 said:Good luck in the next life, 😉

If you want to slash government spending, you have to scrap a mountain of benefits and entitlements that the system is built upon (it’s all written in the Constitution regarding the social welfare state).
Any political party running on a platform like that is never going to get elected. So, we’re stuck in this loop where everyone is just trying to live off someone else's dime (both now and in the future).

And as long as government spending keeps climbing, even Samuel Collins is going to end up losing his shirt. 😁

The golden rule.
👍
Democracy on such a massive societal scale—and given everything it's applied to today—just doesn't work. There is no "one size fits all" policy; people and circumstances are far too diverse for that.

Not 😁

The government could sell off Wells Fargo and State Farm tomorrow, dump all that cash into buying shiny new SUVs for every low-level bureaucrat with a title, and my life wouldn't change one bit 😉 If they try to push me too far, I'm out of the US. I'll make the same money I make now because thank God I'm nobody's damn slave!

I've got property here, but I'd rather give it away for free than pay a single cent in taxes on it. I haven't stolen from anyone, I haven't scammed anyone, and I lost my mind working my tail off to build what I have. Now some guy with a nasal voice wants to tax my hard work just because he's too incompetent to fund basic state expenses?!!!! No way in hell!!! The mods can delete this post for all I care, but I am not paying a dime in extra taxes on my own assets!

Who gave me the right to be typing this at this hour without having to report to some corporate overlord in the morning who pays me a salary that gets half-gutted by spendthrifts? ME! Who built what I have today? ME! And who's going to take it from me? NOBODY! Not a single cent!

David Parker44 said:Yes, we are.
First off, if the people actually showed some teeth, this whole movie would be playing out differently. Just look at France... the second they tighten the screws, you've got riots in the streets. You can't mess with them. But here? Throw a tax hike at us—wrapped up in some "austerity" ideology or blaming the previous administration—and everyone just folds. Everyone just says, "Well, I guess we have to..." That's how it always goes. And don't even get me started on small business owners. Hit them with an extra 12% tax on profit distributions and not a single soul at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce even blinks.

Secondly, I’d implement penalties at the polls for anyone who doesn't show up... simple enough. $100 So don't bother voting then. You live in America, and that comes with a duty to the state and the people. If we did that, they wouldn't be playing games with pathetic 40% turnout numbers and letting a tiny minority decide the majority. The final result would look completely different.

The French eat soup after the "main" course. They're built different. Same goes for what you mentioned. I agree people need to revolt, but we're just wired to complain in forums, bars, and living rooms instead.

I also agree about penalizing people who skip elections without a damn good reason.

I’m sure the U.S. Chamber of Commerce blinked a few times before Mrsić came up with his "brilliant" idea that people with college degrees should be working for $533 a month. If you value human dignity, that's an insult.

There are honest employers out there, too.
Let the uninformed or the moralists pay the corporate tax; they clearly don't realize what kind of idiocy their money is funding.
$33333 It's way too easy to pull money out of a company. It's ridiculous. Renting space, leasing equipment from sister companies, etc.—that's old school and inefficient. Even if you rent massive warehouses that cost a fortune, you have to report it, the contract goes to the IRS, and you pay tax on the rental amount. There are solutions, but the government is run by idiots who aren't smart enough to see them. $33333 Money gets pulled out of a firm so fast the owner has cash in hand in a couple of days, and the government sees zero. I won't go into more detail unless I want to get blocked or banned or whatever they call it these days.

To anyone reading this from some office where you're basically a slave: don't criticize me. I’ve been there. In a 400-square-foot office, all alone, with my own master breathing down my neck. Never again.

Samuel Collins said:Only a moron thinks hiking taxes actually fills the coffers. You grow a budget through tax breaks and cutting red tape—that’s how you jumpstart the whole economy, from the guy running a taco truck to the massive corporations on Wall Street. The smart money knows that.

Honestly, I couldn't care less what they decide to do tomorrow. I stopped relying on the whims of corrupt idiots a long time ago.

They probably know that too, they just don't give a damn. As long as they can line their own pockets, they wouldn't care if the whole world burned down tomorrow.