High School Guide: Admissions, reviews, and advice

Susan James said:And honestly, we saw an example of this with med school last year when there were still open spots during the fall semester because none of the applicants could pass the entrance exam. Personally, I think that's perfectly fine.

I mean, it’s definitely not ideal to have students coming out of top-tier prep schools who can't even pass the admissions test. The issue isn't that the test itself is too hard—since some people clearly passed it—but rather that some students didn't actually master their high school curriculum. And the kicker? The ones who didn't get in were supposed to be the honors students!

Well, that only happened once in twenty years, and it was probably tied to COVID... but I guess the point is that for certain majors, your choice of high school really matters. A student couldn't realistically go from a vocational business school to med school because they wouldn't meet the prerequisites. I think vet med has similar requirements, too.

So, you really have to think about the long-term implications.

Terry Martinez10 said:It’s hard for me to wrap my head around how that works in practice; if the whole point of high school is to prepare you for university, then shouldn't the curriculum be structured to ensure those topics are covered? If they're planned, then skipping them properly feels unfair. I mean, if they aren't teaching integrals correctly, how are students supposed to handle things like the Hess normal form and stuff like that?
E: I see that some programs are starting from scratch with the material, and honestly, I'm glad to hear that med school applicants have to meet certain prerequisite requirements from their high school days.

I graduated from MIT, and even as I'm finishing up my math studies, this is the first time I've ever even heard of the Hess normal form. ☕

I used to commute all over Washington, D.C. back in the eighties, and even though traffic wasn't nearly as insane as it is now, I still wouldn't suggest it. I mean, if a kid is dead set on a specific school, fine, but commuting from a suburb like Gary all the way to LSE just to hit a 3 PM high school schedule? Seems pretty pointless to me.

Traffic patterns have definitely shifted, but I still think people are blowing things out of proportion.
And look, I get how annoying commutes can be—I take public transit to work in Chicago every day.

Obviously, if someone wants to enroll in, say, a specific high school and one is thirty minutes away while another is ninety minutes away, they’re going to pick the closer one (assuming it meets all their other criteria).
But reducing the entire school selection process down to just proximity? That's ridiculous. Honestly, I think some parents are overreacting with all this drama about transportation.
My point stands: if someone has a long commute, that travel time can actually be used productively to get schoolwork done.
As for sleep deprivation, if they just went to bed at a reasonable hour (like 10 PM), they wouldn't have these issues. (That’s a different story for student-athletes who have late-night practices, but hey, you chose that path, so deal with it.)
The reason they stay up until God knows when is because they have phones right next to their heads with constant notifications popping up. Of course they aren't falling asleep by 2 AM; I wouldn't be able to either.
On top of that, half of them don't even bother eating breakfast before school... no wonder they don't have the energy to focus in class.

So, there’s actually some real science behind why teenagers stay up all night rambling and then can't seem to drag themselves out of bed until 10 AM—it’s not just them being difficult, or stubborn, or constantly glued to their phones and notifications. It’s actually down to what's happening inside their bodies. Basically, melatonin—that stuff that tells our brains it's time to crash—doesn't even start kicking in for them until around midnight. It’s totally different from little kids or us adults, whose systems start signaling "hey, go to sleep" much earlier, usually around 10 PM.

I was one of those weird teenagers who actually went to bed between 10 and 11 PM.

Yeah.

Sarah Hall53 said:So, there’s actually some real science behind why teenagers stay up all night rambling and then can't seem to drag themselves out of bed until 10 AM—it’s not just them being difficult, or stubborn, or constantly glued to their phones and notifications. It’s actually down to what's happening inside their bodies. Basically, melatonin—that stuff that tells our brains it's time to crash—doesn't even start kicking in for them until around midnight. It’s totally different from little kids or us adults, whose systems start signaling "hey, go to sleep" much earlier, usually around 10 PM.

Actually, I think there is a massive connection to phones, computers, Netflix... and so on. Of course, that works in tandem with the delayed melatonin release. It's a recipe for disaster, I suppose.
"Scientifically proven"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4089837/

Henry Martinez2 said:I was one of those weird teenagers who actually went to bed between 10 and 11 PM.

Same here, honestly. After 10:00 PM, the TV was off, and by 11:00 PM, I was already deep in REM sleep. I’d wake up in the morning feeling fine—like a little bird, I guess.

Even back before the internet was even a thing—I didn't even have a TV in my room, mind you—I still couldn't catch a wink of sleep until well after midnight. And predictably, I’d be a total zombie by morning. Every single day.

Sarah Hall53 said:Even back before the internet was even a thing—I didn't even have a TV in my room, mind you—I still couldn't catch a wink of sleep until well after midnight. And predictably, I’d be a total zombie by morning. Every single day.

Now, just imagine if you actually had the internet, Instagram, Snapchat, and all that nonsense at your fingertips...
It would probably just overstimulate your brain even more—which, I guess, would only decrease your chances of actually falling asleep or getting any decent rest.

Sarah Hall53 said:Even back before the internet was even a thing—I didn't even have a TV in my room, mind you—I still couldn't catch a wink of sleep until well after midnight. And predictably, I’d be a total zombie by morning. Every single day.

Sure, we didn't have the internet, but we had landlines. I remember spending hours on the phone at night while my parents were asleep; honestly, I think it was actually cheaper back then, plus nobody would complain that they were hogging the line😬.
Some of us just preferred studying at night. For me, working the afternoon shift was the best because I could come home and dive straight into my books, get some decent sleep until noon, and then head to class. Even during my time at MIT, most of my exam prep happened under the moonlight.
And don't even get me started on reading late at night😍—I spent a huge chunk of my degree hunched over a desk lamp🥱

I honestly find it hard to wrap my head around parents who insist on single-session schools (like those kids who have to commute all the way across town starting in middle school just to avoid second sessions; it's wild)
.
I feel so bad for the kids stuck in those full-day schedules, unless they can manage to pick a start time around 9:00 AM (maybe with a little elective or something similar at 8:00)

Anthony Ward6 said:Well, that only happened once in twenty years, and it was probably tied to COVID... but I guess the point is that for certain majors, your choice of high school really matters. A student couldn't realistically go from a vocational business school to med school because they wouldn't meet the prerequisites. I think vet med has similar requirements, too.

So, you really have to think about the long-term implications.

I’m not entirely sure how it played out, but it happened to the kids from the prep schools.
To me, it feels like a perfect example of why medical programs look at more than just your SAT scores.

If someone passes the entrance exams, why shouldn't they be able to enroll regardless of their high school background? You can dream big about the future, but life is unpredictable and things change along the way.

Personally, I think this whole situation is a perfect example of how certain universities allow all sorts of nonsense just to maintain an air of elitism. Anyone who remembers how things used to be can't help but wonder how many kids managed to get helpful hints or even outright answers from doctors and professors before their entrance exams—something that’s obviously impossible once you're dealing with the standard high school graduation requirements.

That said, there's definitely going to be a huge market for private tutors and specialized prep courses specifically for medical school applicants. The curriculum covered in a standard high school diploma just doesn't cut it for those aspiring medics, whereas for folks aiming for vet school, biology, or pharmacy, it usually suffices enough.☕

Michelle Nelson4 said:Personally, I think this whole situation is a perfect example of how certain universities allow all sorts of nonsense just to maintain an air of elitism. Anyone who remembers how things used to be can't help but wonder how many kids managed to get helpful hints or even outright answers from doctors and professors before their entrance exams—something that’s obviously impossible once you're dealing with the standard high school graduation requirements.

That said, there's definitely going to be a huge market for private tutors and specialized prep courses specifically for medical school applicants. The curriculum covered in a standard high school diploma just doesn't cut it for those aspiring medics, whereas for folks aiming for vet school, biology, or pharmacy, it usually suffices enough.☕

Medical school doesn't need to pretend to be elite; it's inherently elite. In my view, it doesn't really fall into the same category as most other majors. You are training to actually heal people, and that requires a specific kind of dedication.

So, I don't mind if they "act elite" by having entrance exams. They are looking for people who truly want to pursue medicine. And honestly, there are so many applicants that high school graduation scores alone aren't enough to properly screen them. The medical entrance exams are significantly tougher than the equivalent subjects on a standard diploma, so they can perform a much better selection process.

It’s funny when you really stop to think about it. If a university decides that high school math scores are a sufficient benchmark for science majors—under the assumption that those students will eventually have to tackle much more intense, specialized chemistry, physics, and advanced calculus later on—then it raises an interesting question. Why isn't that same logic applied to medical school admissions? It seems strange that those same standardized test scores aren't viewed as a reliable indicator of whether a student can actually handle the heavy lifting required in the medical curriculum down the road.

Do you think the chemistry track at the School of Engineering is basically just a subset of the chemistry major over at the College of Arts and Sciences? Or maybe that physics track at Engineering is really just a specialized version of the pure physics program at the College of Arts and Sciences?

Honestly, I feel like these entrance exams don't really serve any practical purpose other than being a massive cash grab—they charge an absolute fortune for them. It’s frustrating because they just end up reopening old doors to problems that were already pretty much settled by the universal standardized testing we have now.

Michelle Nelson4 said:Personally, I think this whole situation is a perfect example of how certain universities allow all sorts of nonsense just to maintain an air of elitism. Anyone who remembers how things used to be can't help but wonder how many kids managed to get helpful hints or even outright answers from doctors and professors before their entrance exams—something that’s obviously impossible once you're dealing with the standard high school graduation requirements.

That said, there's definitely going to be a huge market for private tutors and specialized prep courses specifically for medical school applicants. The curriculum covered in a standard high school diploma just doesn't cut it for those aspiring medics, whereas for folks aiming for vet school, biology, or pharmacy, it usually suffices enough.☕

Are you suggesting that in generations where there were tons of open spots available, there weren't enough kids with doctor parents getting leaked questions?
Or maybe they got them but just didn't study hard enough? 🤔

Where did you get the idea that if there's an entrance exam for something, people immediately jump to tutoring and make a killing off it?
And even if they do make money, why does it matter? It’s actually in our interest to have better student selection (basically, making sure fewer students drop out once they realize how tough the coursework is) so people can finish their degrees in a reasonable timeframe.
They're being educated using our tax dollars, after all.

Even now with the medical school entrance exams, not every kid goes to a tutor. There’s a group of them who are just naturally great at math, stay perfectly on track with their studies, and even go above and beyond. Then there are the kids whose parents are well-educated enough to help them out at home.
Those students deserve their spots, especially if they had decent grades or didn't rely on extra points from sports competitions.

As for the high school exit exams, I’d sooner bet that during those tests, cheating or similar things might happen just to protect the reputation of an elite school from poor results (I'm not saying that *should* happen), rather than a professor leaking entrance exam questions. Because a professor who leaks a test will have to deal with that student for five years, knowing they took a spot away from someone else who might actually have more potential.

That’s really what we’re talking about all the time—comparing high school entrance exams to national standardized testing on other subjects.
It's much more likely that high school teachers might tip the scales for their own students (since it reflects on their own teaching performance), whereas professors haven't even met these students yet, but will have to teach them for four years. Whether that makes teaching easier or harder depends entirely on the foundation the students arrived with.

Michelle Nelson4 said:It’s funny when you really stop to think about it. If a university decides that high school math scores are a sufficient benchmark for science majors—under the assumption that those students will eventually have to tackle much more intense, specialized chemistry, physics, and advanced calculus later on—then it raises an interesting question. Why isn't that same logic applied to medical school admissions? It seems strange that those same standardized test scores aren't viewed as a reliable indicator of whether a student can actually handle the heavy lifting required in the medical curriculum down the road.

Do you think the chemistry track at the School of Engineering is basically just a subset of the chemistry major over at the College of Arts and Sciences? Or maybe that physics track at Engineering is really just a specialized version of the pure physics program at the College of Arts and Sciences?

Honestly, I feel like these entrance exams don't really serve any practical purpose other than being a massive cash grab—they charge an absolute fortune for them. It’s frustrating because they just end up reopening old doors to problems that were already pretty much settled by the universal standardized testing we have now.

Comparing a liberal arts science program to medical school isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison in terms of "how hard the physics or chemistry is," but I suppose that’s beside the point. The real issue here is just the sheer volume of applicants. At the medical school in Washington, D.C., the pressure is intense because you have so many top-tier students—people with incredible grades and actual knowledge—all vying for the same spots. It turns out their high school diplomas just weren't enough to act as a filter for such a competitive pool, so they had to implement entrance exams to sort through everyone.

Susan James said:I’m not entirely sure how it played out, but it happened to the kids from the prep schools.
To me, it feels like a perfect example of why medical programs look at more than just your SAT scores.

If someone passes the entrance exams, why shouldn't they be able to enroll regardless of their high school background? You can dream big about the future, but life is unpredictable and things change along the way.

It’s because they don't meet the prerequisites for that specific program. For medical school, for instance, you need at least two years of chemistry, physics, and biology during high school. Applicants who only had one year of those subjects—say, if they attended a vocational business high school—can't even apply for med school, let alone sit for an entrance exam.

Sure, kids at a business high school are probably more interested in economics than medicine or veterinary science, but the point is that in certain cases, your choice of high school definitely limits your college options.

As for the entrance exams, they were basically scrapped right after the national standardized testing system was introduced because universities wanted to maintain control over their selection process, and also because of discrepancies in the material being tested. For example, the national exams mostly focus on plant and animal biology, which isn't even covered on the actual university entrance exams.

I guess I'm actually in favor of bringing back entrance exams, but only because the national tests weren't really meant to serve as entrance exams in the first place; they were supposed to be external evaluations, and honestly, a final evaluation doesn't mean much anyway.

Betty Wood54 said:I graduated from MIT, and even as I'm finishing up my math studies, this is the first time I've ever even heard of the Hess normal form. ☕

Right...
Honestly, I’m not quite sure how one would even begin to comment on that, given how much there is to unpack, 🤷
but maybe looking at it this way might make things click for you:
https://ibb.co/YQznxw8
And if you want to dive deeper into the weeds, here is this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesse_normal_form

Terry Martinez10 said:Right...
Honestly, I’m not quite sure how one would even begin to comment on that, given how much there is to unpack, 🤷
but maybe looking at it this way might make things click for you:
https://ibb.co/YQznxw8
And if you want to dive deeper into the weeds, here is this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesse_normal_form

I find it somewhat funny that you are asking about the Hesse normal form. Honestly, that specific term isn't really used in the States at all—I mean, when I searched online, I could barely find anything besides one obscure lecture note mentioning the Hesse normal form for line equations. It seems just a little too niche, so I guess I don't quite understand why anyone would remember it using that exact phrasing.