C.G. Jung - Man and his symbols

wiredstag30 said:So what are they actually using then? What does that look like? And how can you say they aren't consciously fantasizing? If they aren't doing that consciously, then they're just... well, I mean, I can recognize my own projections. But that projection is still part of my unconscious, so it remains projected. To truly bring it into awareness, I have to fully comprehend it first.
The anima acts almost like a separate personality. It has its own autonomy. Because of that, it functions like a complex. Being part of the unconscious, it's always being projected. But it's also this complex, energetic entity.
I can't just snap my fingers and make it conscious. Fully grasping the unconscious—especially the collective side of things—is a massive undertaking.
For someone to commit an act like rape, they have to possess certain tendencies that they've pushed down deep inside.

That’s just not right. A guy could be looking at a thousand women who all look practically identical—same height, weight, vibe, style, even the way they laugh or act rude—so what is it that triggers him to target one specific woman against his own subconscious will?
You ask the guy, "Why did you do that?"
"I don't know (explain), I don't know what just took hold of me." 🤷
"Why her specifically, when they all seem the same?"
"I don't know, I couldn't help myself, I don't know what came over me." 🤷

And then, through some strange interaction with a caring psychiatrist, this twisted, sick impulse develops where he actually feels a desire to abuse or assault her himself, which leaves him completely bewildered...
So what is driving that? It’s what comes from *her*. Her own drive to be abused, violated, or destroyed, simply enacted through someone else—an external agent.
And all this happens without her needing to wear a provocative mini-skirt or bright red lipstick.

A typical predator will recognize his kind immediately, whereas a decent gentleman will be left utterly stunned by his own mental shifts—or he'll fulfill some unconscious demand and then spend the rest of his life wondering why, without any rational explanation whatsoever.

wiredstag30 said:So what are they actually using then? What does that look like? And how can you say they aren't consciously fantasizing? If they aren't doing that consciously, then they're just... well, I mean, I can recognize my own projections. But that projection is still part of my unconscious, so it remains projected. To truly bring it into awareness, I have to fully comprehend it first.
The anima acts almost like a separate personality. It has its own autonomy. Because of that, it functions like a complex. Being part of the unconscious, it's always being projected. But it's also this complex, energetic entity.
I can't just snap my fingers and make it conscious. Fully grasping the unconscious—especially the collective side of things—is a massive undertaking.
For someone to commit an act like rape, they have to possess certain tendencies that they've pushed down deep inside.

Well, of course you can't, because to achieve that, you first have to get to know yourself incredibly well.😉
And once you really know yourself, you’ll eventually stumble upon those parts of you formed through somewhat schizoid introjection (or internalization) of other women's psycho-physical traits—you know, various mothers, sisters, grandmothers, nannies, neighbors, etc.—which, acting as a poorly conscious artificial construct, can be held as an autonomous complex.

crimsoncanyon2 said:That’s just not right. A guy could be looking at a thousand women who all look practically identical—same height, weight, vibe, style, even the way they laugh or act rude—so what is it that triggers him to target one specific woman against his own subconscious will?
You ask the guy, "Why did you do that?"
"I don't know (explain), I don't know what just took hold of me." 🤷
"Why her specifically, when they all seem the same?"
"I don't know, I couldn't help myself, I don't know what came over me." 🤷

And then, through some strange interaction with a caring psychiatrist, this twisted, sick impulse develops where he actually feels a desire to abuse or assault her himself, which leaves him completely bewildered...
So what is driving that? It’s what comes from *her*. Her own drive to be abused, violated, or destroyed, simply enacted through someone else—an external agent.
And all this happens without her needing to wear a provocative mini-skirt or bright red lipstick.

A typical predator will recognize his kind immediately, whereas a decent gentleman will be left utterly stunned by his own mental shifts—or he'll fulfill some unconscious demand and then spend the rest of his life wondering why, without any rational explanation whatsoever.

Well, of course you can't, because to achieve that, you first have to get to know yourself incredibly well.😉
And once you really know yourself, you’ll eventually stumble upon those parts of you formed through somewhat schizoid introjection (or internalization) of other women's psycho-physical traits—you know, various mothers, sisters, grandmothers, nannies, neighbors, etc.—which, acting as a poorly conscious artificial construct, can be held as an autonomous complex.

I honestly don't know where you get this stuff, but I would love to meet someone like that. Just to see. 😁
And okay, so what now? Did he project his anima onto her? Or was it her anima projecting toward the attacker?
Rape is an act of aggression. To carry out such an act, someone has to possess those tendencies. Or at least think about them.
We all carry aggression inside us, but this theory feels a bit unusual to me.
In the end, everyone's anima/animus isn't the same, and it's not always just a matching type of man or woman like people assume.

wiredstag30 said:I honestly don't know where you get this stuff, but I would love to meet someone like that. Just to see. 😁
And okay, so what now? Did he project his anima onto her? Or was it her anima projecting toward the attacker?
Rape is an act of aggression. To carry out such an act, someone has to possess those tendencies. Or at least think about them.
We all carry aggression inside us, but this theory feels a bit unusual to me.
In the end, everyone's anima/animus isn't the same, and it's not always just a matching type of man or woman like people assume.

Everything I was explaining in my last post builds on your claim that "projection always happens unconsciously." My point is that unconsciousness also triggers conscious reactions in others, driven by what someone else has set in motion.
It works just as much through recognition in the other person, even without deep conscious knowledge
and regarding the explanation that rape can be a reaction to "signals" sent from someone else's unconscious—all of that still holds up.

crimsoncanyon2 said:Deebelo, you're missing the point here. The unconscious isn't just limited to projection; it can also be recognized and even amplified.

If we look at Jung's archetypes for a second, it's easy to explain this using the example of S&M couples. They are drawn to one another because they recognize each other unconsciously. It’s not about some woman or guy consciously fantasizing about sadistic roleplay where their partner shows up in costumes and whips—it's about countless situations where these psychological profiles simply recognize and attract one another instinctively, without ever needing the leather, the latex, or all that other nonsense people who just want a theatrical show are obsessed with.

Now, amplification would be a situation where a person with a specific profile unconsciously drives someone else toward a behavior they wouldn't naturally exhibit—but they don't even realize why they're doing it or what pushed them there—like, say, sexual assault.

Projection, on the other hand, is when a woman carries an image of a stingy man in her unconscious, and then claims her partner is a cheapskate—even if he's actually incredibly generous and wants to help everyone—simply because she's obsessed with that internal archetype.

Or take the opposite scenario in those early stages of falling in love: a girl insists her boyfriend is absolutely perfect and wonderful, when in reality, he's the exact opposite. She doesn't see it because she's actually in love with a fantasy version of him built entirely on her own projection of desirable traits.

😁

I think you actually understood it fine, but now you're dragging it out and twisting it into the anima and animus just to make me look like some clueless idiot, like Guy.😉 🤣

As for shifting the anima—completely separate from the text above—a man might displace it onto a doll, where he spends his time brushing its long hair and reading poems by Pablo Neruda (assuming he actually has those inclinations), right up until a buddy shows up for an unexpected visit.
In this scenario, the anima complex attaches itself to a Cypriot-style doll fetishism known as agalmatophilia. The guy is essentially projecting his own anima onto the doll, given that the doll can't speak, reason, think, or—heaven forbid—love.
http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1...-half-doll.jpg
It’s similar to what happens in "Psycho," where Norman is simultaneously himself and his internalized mother, who was eventually displaced onto an inanimate object—her own skeleton.

crimsoncanyon2 said:Everything I was explaining in my last post builds on your claim that "projection always happens unconsciously." My point is that unconsciousness also triggers conscious reactions in others, driven by what someone else has set in motion.
It works just as much through recognition in the other person, even without deep conscious knowledge
and regarding the explanation that rape can be a reaction to "signals" sent from someone else's unconscious—all of that still holds up.

😁

I think you actually understood it fine, but now you're dragging it out and twisting it into the anima and animus just to make me look like some clueless idiot, like Guy.😉 🤣

As for shifting the anima—completely separate from the text above—a man might displace it onto a doll, where he spends his time brushing its long hair and reading poems by Pablo Neruda (assuming he actually has those inclinations), right up until a buddy shows up for an unexpected visit.
In this scenario, the anima complex attaches itself to a Cypriot-style doll fetishism known as agalmatophilia. The guy is essentially projecting his own anima onto the doll, given that the doll can't speak, reason, think, or—heaven forbid—love.
http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/1...-half-doll.jpg
It’s similar to what happens in "Psycho," where Norman is simultaneously himself and his internalized mother, who was eventually displaced onto an inanimate object—her own skeleton.

Alright, so where are you getting all this info? I've been reading Jung's work for about ten years now, but this comparative breakdown of yours isn't exactly what's in his books.
So, I'm curious.
The idea that the unconscious is always projecting is a Quote from Carl Gustav Jung. Look, I'm certainly no expert.
So, if a conscious reaction is triggered by someone else's unconscious, then there has to be a match. In that case, I assume it would have to be collectively unconscious. Or maybe individually repressed. Because it still emerged from the "perpetrator's" unconscious, even if he wasn't aware of those tendencies at the time. It ended up being evoked as a desire.
Let's say we go back to the example of an assault: would that specific woman evoke those same tendencies in every man? Or just most of them, or maybe just a small group?

wiredstag30 said:Alright, so where are you getting all this info? I've been reading Jung's work for about ten years now, but this comparative breakdown of yours isn't exactly what's in his books.
So, I'm curious.
The idea that the unconscious is always projecting is a Quote from Carl Gustav Jung. Look, I'm certainly no expert.
So, if a conscious reaction is triggered by someone else's unconscious, then there has to be a match. In that case, I assume it would have to be collectively unconscious. Or maybe individually repressed. Because it still emerged from the "perpetrator's" unconscious, even if he wasn't aware of those tendencies at the time. It ended up being evoked as a desire.
Let's say we go back to the example of an assault: would that specific woman evoke those same tendencies in every man? Or just most of them, or maybe just a small group?

I am the Truth itself 🤣

wiredstag30 said:Alright, so where are you getting all this info? I've been reading Jung's work for about ten years now, but this comparative breakdown of yours isn't exactly what's in his books.
So, I'm curious.
The idea that the unconscious is always projecting is a Quote from Carl Gustav Jung. Look, I'm certainly no expert.
So, if a conscious reaction is triggered by someone else's unconscious, then there has to be a match. In that case, I assume it would have to be collectively unconscious. Or maybe individually repressed. Because it still emerged from the "perpetrator's" unconscious, even if he wasn't aware of those tendencies at the time. It ended up being evoked as a desire.
Let's say we go back to the example of an assault: would that specific woman evoke those same tendencies in every man? Or just most of them, or maybe just a small group?

Me neither—but forensic psychology and psychiatry just happen to be incredibly sexy to me.🤣

wiredstag30 said:Alright, so where are you getting all this info? I've been reading Jung's work for about ten years now, but this comparative breakdown of yours isn't exactly what's in his books.
So, I'm curious.
The idea that the unconscious is always projecting is a Quote from Carl Gustav Jung. Look, I'm certainly no expert.
So, if a conscious reaction is triggered by someone else's unconscious, then there has to be a match. In that case, I assume it would have to be collectively unconscious. Or maybe individually repressed. Because it still emerged from the "perpetrator's" unconscious, even if he wasn't aware of those tendencies at the time. It ended up being evoked as a desire.
Let's say we go back to the example of an assault: would that specific woman evoke those same tendencies in every man? Or just most of them, or maybe just a small group?

Every guy she gets even remotely close to will feel it—the only difference is how they react to that sudden impulse.
Suppressing your own nature 🙂 🙂,
that total confusion when you realize there's a conflict—like, "Wait, I'm a decent gentleman, what the hell is happening to me?" 😲 😕 🙂 "
&
ideally, just giving in... the Harvest 😁 🙂 😈 .

What should a woman actually do to trigger those kinds of impulses in a man?
If we assume rape is an act of violence, and all violence stems from a sense of inferiority, then she’d theoretically have to make him feel less valuable. But what if he doesn't feel that way when he's around her?
For instance, what would a man need to subconsciously project to make someone want to, say, castrate him? I'm being serious here, no joking please.😁
And look, this is stuff for forensics and psychiatry—it's right on that thin line between healthy and pathological. That space where the subconscious takes over and starts driving the conscious mind.

And I see you're hiding your sources like a snake in the grass.😁

wiredstag30 said:What should a woman actually do to trigger those kinds of impulses in a man?
If we assume rape is an act of violence, and all violence stems from a sense of inferiority, then she’d theoretically have to make him feel less valuable. But what if he doesn't feel that way when he's around her?
For instance, what would a man need to subconsciously project to make someone want to, say, castrate him? I'm being serious here, no joking please.😁
And look, this is stuff for forensics and psychiatry—it's right on that thin line between healthy and pathological. That space where the subconscious takes over and starts driving the conscious mind.

And I see you're hiding your sources like a snake in the grass.😁

Thanatos—the drive toward self-destruction, suffering, and annihilation—and autosadism.
A person can't always achieve this through themselves; instead, they activate it in others, making them do it on their behalf.
Have you never heard of women who somehow constantly end up with men who specifically and exclusively abuse them, even though everything looks perfectly normal at the start?
I used rape as an example, but it doesn't have to be that extreme—it's more about someone's ability to use their unconscious mechanisms to turn a "normal" person into something abnormal, simply because that's what serves her needs.
So, I'm not talking about anything predatory or premeditated, like planned assault or abuse.
I'm talking about a woman having something dysfunctional deep inside that pulls another person into behaving abnormally—or acting out of character—where her unconscious triggers their unconscious. It’s as if the other person loses conscious control over their reactions, or they still have some control, which makes it all the more confusing for them.
To be clear, this isn't a situation where some angry, frustrated, or hypersensitive guy with low self-esteem gets rejected by a girl and thinks, "Oh, you'll get what's coming to you, you little..." 😠 😠 "..."
🤣 🤣 ,everything is fine and harmonious, and then suddenly, things take a bizarre turn.

Take, for example, a woman who seems totally fine—good job, decent salary, maybe a mid-level manager at a company like Starbucks or Target, not overly bossy, loves socializing—but carries a deeply troubled family background involving trauma or abuse (even if you could never tell by looking at her). She triggers a guy with a completely stable background into reacting in ways that leave him baffled by his own behavior.
Essentially, beneath the veneer of a false self, there's a girl who subconsciously craves to be mistreated and destroyed. But since she doesn't have a twin to do it to herself, she provokes it in others without ever saying a single word about it.
And people are left wondering how she managed to drive them to act so strangely and so far out of character.

wiredstag30 said:What should a woman actually do to trigger those kinds of impulses in a man?
If we assume rape is an act of violence, and all violence stems from a sense of inferiority, then she’d theoretically have to make him feel less valuable. But what if he doesn't feel that way when he's around her?
For instance, what would a man need to subconsciously project to make someone want to, say, castrate him? I'm being serious here, no joking please.😁
And look, this is stuff for forensics and psychiatry—it's right on that thin line between healthy and pathological. That space where the subconscious takes over and starts driving the conscious mind.

And I see you're hiding your sources like a snake in the grass.😁

Well, I’m probably not the best person to answer this one 😁
For me, just being an absolute jerk most of the time would be more than enough 🤣 🤣

But if he's one of those guys his own mother wanted to castrate, then he'd likely know the magic formula to convince other women to feel the same way.
That kind of guy must subconsciously crave having his manhood removed—whether it's because he's wanted it since he was a kid or because his mom already tried to pull it off.

I think I read something similar from Fromm once. If you haven't already, you probably should, since you seem pretty deep into this stuff. 😲 You start thinking about how women like this. 😁
It’s true that some women tend to attract aggressors. They often seek out those specific personality traits, though it isn't exactly hard for a man to spot a victim in the making. But to actually manipulate someone—or rather, to unconsciously manipulate another person—you really need to be dealing with a certain type of psyche.
Personally, I wouldn't be able to spot self-destructiveness in anyone without being told directly.
It makes sense, really. A massive ego usually compensates with a corresponding unconscious reaction. People in positions of power often have a bit of a masochistic fetish going on.
This whole thing feels strange and atypical, almost like a shadow. 😲

wiredstag30 said:I think I read something similar from Fromm once. If you haven't already, you probably should, since you seem pretty deep into this stuff. 😲 You start thinking about how women like this. 😁
It’s true that some women tend to attract aggressors. They often seek out those specific personality traits, though it isn't exactly hard for a man to spot a victim in the making. But to actually manipulate someone—or rather, to unconsciously manipulate another person—you really need to be dealing with a certain type of psyche.
Personally, I wouldn't be able to spot self-destructiveness in anyone without being told directly.
It makes sense, really. A massive ego usually compensates with a corresponding unconscious reaction. People in positions of power often have a bit of a masochistic fetish going on.
This whole thing feels strange and atypical, almost like a shadow. 😲

Exactly, but where does it say everyone has to spill their guts? Imagine if a psychiatrist or a university professor suddenly felt the urge to assault a woman; they aren't just going to go running around announcing it to the world or telling people about it. 🤷 🤔
It’s much more likely they’ll bottle it up—either dealing with it internally, obsessively analyzing it in their own heads, or having a massive internal conflict.
A repeat offender definitely isn't following that script.

wiredstag30 said:I think I read something similar from Fromm once. If you haven't already, you probably should, since you seem pretty deep into this stuff. 😲 You start thinking about how women like this. 😁
It’s true that some women tend to attract aggressors. They often seek out those specific personality traits, though it isn't exactly hard for a man to spot a victim in the making. But to actually manipulate someone—or rather, to unconsciously manipulate another person—you really need to be dealing with a certain type of psyche.
Personally, I wouldn't be able to spot self-destructiveness in anyone without being told directly.
It makes sense, really. A massive ego usually compensates with a corresponding unconscious reaction. People in positions of power often have a bit of a masochistic fetish going on.
This whole thing feels strange and atypical, almost like a shadow. 😲

Yeah, the shadow, but if we assume that most men are naturally decent and kind, then this behavior is malignant and unusual—meaning it's part of the shadow for most men.
So, you could argue that a woman's animus can trigger or amplify a man's shadow 😉 ,
and by that same logic, a man's anima could provoke a woman's shadow.