Desire

What is "will" exactly—where does it originate, and what can truly be said about its nature?

Lately, if I allow for a few rare exceptions, I’ve been experiencing something quite peculiar... for the first time in my life, I am actually becoming aware of when I want or don't want something. It is a rather fascinating experience, if a bit unsettling...

To be perfectly honest, I still haven't found a way to know these things with any degree of absolute certainty. Instead, it feels more like a logical conclusion simply forces itself upon me—that I don't want a specific thing—and I have merely decided to consciously accept that conclusion as my own...

But this leads me to wonder... can I use that same logic to determine what I *do* want? How does a person actually discern their true desires or aversions in the first place? Is it possible to somehow invert or neutralize this sense of will, and can one exert any influence over it at all—one way or another?

Desire usually comes before intention and action. When we’re talking about a rational agent, desire is essentially the byproduct of normative rationality—it stems from what one believes to be true. To me, being "rational" simply means acting based on a full set of information, or rather, the cognitive state of the individual at any given moment. But here's the kicker: if that desire isn't driven by logic, then a self-control mechanism ought to kick in... or maybe it shouldn't...

Honestly, this topic doesn't even belong on this subforum—the moderators moved it here themselves, which makes zero sense—so feel free to just lock it down whenever you want...

Alright then, the moderator over at Psychology agreed to reopen the thread, even though the whole topic was framed through a philosophical lens... there we go.

placidwolf27 said:What is "will" exactly—where does it originate, and what can truly be said about its nature?

Lately, if I allow for a few rare exceptions, I’ve been experiencing something quite peculiar... for the first time in my life, I am actually becoming aware of when I want or don't want something. It is a rather fascinating experience, if a bit unsettling...

To be perfectly honest, I still haven't found a way to know these things with any degree of absolute certainty. Instead, it feels more like a logical conclusion simply forces itself upon me—that I don't want a specific thing—and I have merely decided to consciously accept that conclusion as my own...

But this leads me to wonder... can I use that same logic to determine what I *do* want? How does a person actually discern their true desires or aversions in the first place? Is it possible to somehow invert or neutralize this sense of will, and can one exert any influence over it at all—one way or another?

I suppose people might determine this through some sort of internal value system—what do you think? It’s possible that certain ideas never even cross a person's mind because they represent too much of a challenge to their core values or principles; if that's the case, it makes sense why someone might hesitate, or why their "will might be flipped or neutralized." It isn't just about how the will functions, but rather the actual content of those desires and everything they correlate with. Maybe Maslow's theory regarding the hierarchy of needs could serve as a decent starting point to help clarify terms like need, desire, will, motivation, and the values attached to them.

You know that specific feeling you get right after someone gives you the green light? It’s hard to pin down, I guess. It all plays out according to these internal benchmarks you build up over time, which mostly just depends on your own personality anyway.

Lisa Hernandez3 said:I suppose people might determine this through some sort of internal value system—what do you think? It’s possible that certain ideas never even cross a person's mind because they represent too much of a challenge to their core values or principles; if that's the case, it makes sense why someone might hesitate, or why their "will might be flipped or neutralized." It isn't just about how the will functions, but rather the actual content of those desires and everything they correlate with. Maybe Maslow's theory regarding the hierarchy of needs could serve as a decent starting point to help clarify terms like need, desire, will, motivation, and the values attached to them.

Sure, people will try to dictate their own wants based on a set of values, but that’s not quite the same thing...

If a desire is irrational—if it stems from something fundamentally illogical—then how can a person even maintain a conscious grasp on what they truly want or don't want? And I don't mean something basic, like being hungry and wanting food...

Maybe I'm being a bit emotionally stunted here, but I honestly don't see how one can know what they want if they lack the capacity to communicate with the deeper parts of the psyche where those desires are actually born or manifested...

And what happens when there's a direct collision between what a person "wants" and what they feel they "ought to be"? How does that conflict get resolved? Especially when it involves something purely practical—something where nobody is even bothering to ask for your input...

Maslow isn't helping much here; I've never really understood his work beyond the fact that he spent his life spinning colorful theories about how "normal" people function...

placidwolf27 said:Sure, people will try to dictate their own wants based on a set of values, but that’s not quite the same thing...

If a desire is irrational—if it stems from something fundamentally illogical—then how can a person even maintain a conscious grasp on what they truly want or don't want? And I don't mean something basic, like being hungry and wanting food...

Maybe I'm being a bit emotionally stunted here, but I honestly don't see how one can know what they want if they lack the capacity to communicate with the deeper parts of the psyche where those desires are actually born or manifested...

And what happens when there's a direct collision between what a person "wants" and what they feel they "ought to be"? How does that conflict get resolved? Especially when it involves something purely practical—something where nobody is even bothering to ask for your input...

Maslow isn't helping much here; I've never really understood his work beyond the fact that he spent his life spinning colorful theories about how "normal" people function...

Desire is basically an impulse. I don't really see it as being rational or irrational. That's why you don't need to "talk" to that part of yourself, nor is it even possible, just to figure out what you want. You want something, and it just happens... naturally.

The thing you "want"—your raw desires—and the thing you think you "should be"—your logic or values—can definitely butt heads. It happens all the time. But one doesn't cancel out the other, and it isn't "wrong" just because they're at odds.
What kind of practical situation are we talking about here?

Melissa Sanchez8 said:Desire is basically an impulse. I don't really see it as being rational or irrational. That's why you don't need to "talk" to that part of yourself, nor is it even possible, just to figure out what you want. You want something, and it just happens... naturally.

The thing you "want"—your raw desires—and the thing you think you "should be"—your logic or values—can definitely butt heads. It happens all the time. But one doesn't cancel out the other, and it isn't "wrong" just because they're at odds.
What kind of practical situation are we talking about here?

I'm talking about the various flavors of procrastination—and the inevitable mental blocks and complications that come riding right along with them...

That’s a pretty broad topic to dive into. I'm guessing you have a specific situation in mind...
Usually, if you know what you want, the willpower should follow. At least, that’s how it works for me.
Though, there are plenty of times when I don't want to do something and the motivation just isn't there. But then I'll stop and think about how much it might help me down the road, and I'll get it done. I can force myself to take action even when I'm really not feeling it.

placidwolf27 said:Sure, people will try to dictate their own wants based on a set of values, but that’s not quite the same thing...

If a desire is irrational—if it stems from something fundamentally illogical—then how can a person even maintain a conscious grasp on what they truly want or don't want? And I don't mean something basic, like being hungry and wanting food...

Maybe I'm being a bit emotionally stunted here, but I honestly don't see how one can know what they want if they lack the capacity to communicate with the deeper parts of the psyche where those desires are actually born or manifested...

And what happens when there's a direct collision between what a person "wants" and what they feel they "ought to be"? How does that conflict get resolved? Especially when it involves something purely practical—something where nobody is even bothering to ask for your input...

Maslow isn't helping much here; I've never really understood his work beyond the fact that he spent his life spinning colorful theories about how "normal" people function...

In those moments, a rational person should be able to kick into gear their internal mechanism of self-control.

Brenda Cook4 said:In those moments, a rational person should be able to kick into gear their internal mechanism of self-control.

But what exactly is that mechanism?

Larry Wilson5 said:But what exactly is that mechanism?

At its core, this kind of self-reflection is really just a value judgment. If the term "mechanism" feels a bit off—since in Psychology we usually reserve that for subconscious functions—then let me clarify. What I mean is a specific process, a sort of recurring pattern that brings something into being or shapes how someone acts in any given moment.

Brenda Cook4 said:At its core, this kind of self-reflection is really just a value judgment. If the term "mechanism" feels a bit off—since in Psychology we usually reserve that for subconscious functions—then let me clarify. What I mean is a specific process, a sort of recurring pattern that brings something into being or shapes how someone acts in any given moment.

Yes, if I’m following correctly, the intellect has its own mechanism that influences patterns of will.
Could that mechanism actually be a susceptibility to patterns—essentially abandoning the speech of the will?
Could this lead to a total disconnect from the will, resulting in actions that work against survival, whether it's our own or the environment's?
And how does Psychology view the possibility of something coming into being, or how patterns persist... I ask because I've been reading about patterns in the books by Carlos Castaneda, but perhaps that subject matter isn't appropriate here.
Also... elsewhere, in esotericism, acting mechanically is seen as a sign of following an unconscious reality. Is the intellect recognized as an "unconscious" mind, or just something that makes conscious compromises?
The "speech" of the will should be what follows necessary survival; every organ responds to that will by giving its all in a given situation. It seems only at the level of the ego is such a disconnect possible—making a decision to the detriment of survival while knowing it is so.

So, what exactly is self-control? Is it resisting patterns or respecting them?
Are there patterns that act as guardians, authorities of the will that protect us? I suspect they don't exist... I wonder how a psychologist would approach this story.

Larry Wilson5 said:Yes, if I’m following correctly, the intellect has its own mechanism that influences patterns of will.
Could that mechanism actually be a susceptibility to patterns—essentially abandoning the speech of the will?
Could this lead to a total disconnect from the will, resulting in actions that work against survival, whether it's our own or the environment's?
And how does Psychology view the possibility of something coming into being, or how patterns persist... I ask because I've been reading about patterns in the books by Carlos Castaneda, but perhaps that subject matter isn't appropriate here.
Also... elsewhere, in esotericism, acting mechanically is seen as a sign of following an unconscious reality. Is the intellect recognized as an "unconscious" mind, or just something that makes conscious compromises?
The "speech" of the will should be what follows necessary survival; every organ responds to that will by giving its all in a given situation. It seems only at the level of the ego is such a disconnect possible—making a decision to the detriment of survival while knowing it is so.

So, what exactly is self-control? Is it resisting patterns or respecting them?
Are there patterns that act as guardians, authorities of the will that protect us? I suspect they don't exist... I wonder how a psychologist would approach this story.

Through sheer will, you create behavioral patterns for specific situations. But yes, you can absolutely make decisions that harm yourself or others when that self-control finally snaps. In my view, Psychology classifies that as irrational behavior. Self-control operates along the lines of information, acquired knowledge, and the value systems we build during our development and socialization.

Brenda Cook4 said:Through sheer will, you create behavioral patterns for specific situations. But yes, you can absolutely make decisions that harm yourself or others when that self-control finally snaps. In my view, Psychology classifies that as irrational behavior. Self-control operates along the lines of information, acquired knowledge, and the value systems we build during our development and socialization.

Establishing patterns—well, there’s a choice involved first. Sure, will is part of it, but I guess even will is subordinate to those patterns; maybe it isn't even strictly necessary.
But once a pattern is set, it seems to bind the will to itself...
It all feels somewhat contrary to what I consider true freedom for a being with agency. Then there's
self-control, which I view as a failure to respect one's own self-reflection and established habits. They tend to bind and obstruct the will...
It appears these patterns remain untouchable until we encounter a space outside their influence.
Even then, I suspect we only escape them indirectly; it's hard to break through directly because they carry such deep convictions...