Is honesty always a virtue?

ironmarlin1 said:To my mind, what an honest person expresses is merely their own perception of their thoughts at any given moment. Honesty, treated specifically as a moral virtue, is actually a relatively modern concept. I was recently reading an interview with a certain celebrated novelist who usually avoids the press like the plague, and his reasoning was quite telling: he traced the idea back to Rousseau, who was perhaps the first to weave sincerity together with virtue and political philosophy. The very structure of a modern interview relies on that Rousseauian notion of transparency regarding one's motivations. It isn't surprising that in our current, rather naive era, this journalistic format has become so incredibly popular.

When you argue that the point of honesty is to speak without further "processing" information, you aren't necessarily hitting the mark. When people listen to someone describe themselves, they aren't looking for fleeting thoughts; they are searching for convictions. You see, convictions possess a level of reliability and motivational stability that mere thoughts simply lack. Honesty doesn't provide that stability, but when we frame it as a virtue, it often serves as nothing more than a convenient tool for those prone to self-deception to continue lying to themselves about why they do what they do.

That seems to be a trait shared by everyone on the planet, not just the "honest" ones. So, what’s the point? 🙂

Gary Carter said:That seems to be a trait shared by everyone on the planet, not just the "honest" ones. So, what’s the point? 🙂

The real question we should be wrestling with is whether honesty is actually a virtue at all. Personally, I’d argue it isn't—certainly not when there's an alternative that carries far more weight. There is a profound difference between being a walking open book and simply knowing how to say the right thing at the precisely right moment; the latter is much more valuable than performing transparency for the sake of it. It’s the kind of nuance that explains why Rousseau eventually decided to just pack up and head out to the countryside to live a simpler life.

ironmarlin1 said:The real question we should be wrestling with is whether honesty is actually a virtue at all. Personally, I’d argue it isn't—certainly not when there's an alternative that carries far more weight. There is a profound difference between being a walking open book and simply knowing how to say the right thing at the precisely right moment; the latter is much more valuable than performing transparency for the sake of it. It’s the kind of nuance that explains why Rousseau eventually decided to just pack up and head out to the countryside to live a simpler life.

I am no Rousseau. Which, I suppose, implies he proved that honesty is a virtue in a society that actually values things.😁

Gary Carter said:I am no Rousseau. Which, I suppose, implies he proved that honesty is a virtue in a society that actually values things.😁

I have to admit, I’m struggling to wrap my head around that last sentence of yours. Equal value regarding which specific things, exactly? If we look at the historical context, Rousseau essentially retreated to the countryside because the urban crowds simply couldn't stand him. His tendency to elevate sincerity to the status of a supreme virtue is precisely what drove him to pen his famous Confessions, where he pledged to be brutally honest about the pivotal moments of his life. He operated under this assumption that he was merely misunderstood because he refused to bend to the collective whims or opinions others held of him—which, if you think about it, is just another hallmark of that very same sincerity. At the same time, he championed honesty as a moral pillar. The reality is that people found him insufferable because his insistence on sincerity made it appear as though he were constantly trying to claim a sort of moral high ground, acting as if being "true to his heart" somehow made him superior to everyone else. It reminds me of how Diderot once gave him a sharp rebuttal (in the original French, of course): "Look into your heart, and it will tell you that the good man is in society, and that the bad man is alone."

If I may, I’d like to circle back to a misconception you touched upon earlier regarding the idea that an honest person always voices their opinion. You see, when someone speaks honestly, they aren't necessarily expressing a permanent, unchanging disposition; rather, they are simply stating what they believe to be appropriate or true in that fleeting moment when the question is posed. There is a massive distinction there. This is precisely why a truly honest person often fails to recognize their own statement about having a "permanent disposition" as a virtue. Of course, they *can* perceive it that way, but more often than not, they are simply kidding themselves.

ironmarlin1 said:I have to admit, I’m struggling to wrap my head around that last sentence of yours. Equal value regarding which specific things, exactly? If we look at the historical context, Rousseau essentially retreated to the countryside because the urban crowds simply couldn't stand him. His tendency to elevate sincerity to the status of a supreme virtue is precisely what drove him to pen his famous Confessions, where he pledged to be brutally honest about the pivotal moments of his life. He operated under this assumption that he was merely misunderstood because he refused to bend to the collective whims or opinions others held of him—which, if you think about it, is just another hallmark of that very same sincerity. At the same time, he championed honesty as a moral pillar. The reality is that people found him insufferable because his insistence on sincerity made it appear as though he were constantly trying to claim a sort of moral high ground, acting as if being "true to his heart" somehow made him superior to everyone else. It reminds me of how Diderot once gave him a sharp rebuttal (in the original French, of course): "Look into your heart, and it will tell you that the good man is in society, and that the bad man is alone."

If I may, I’d like to circle back to a misconception you touched upon earlier regarding the idea that an honest person always voices their opinion. You see, when someone speaks honestly, they aren't necessarily expressing a permanent, unchanging disposition; rather, they are simply stating what they believe to be appropriate or true in that fleeting moment when the question is posed. There is a massive distinction there. This is precisely why a truly honest person often fails to recognize their own statement about having a "permanent disposition" as a virtue. Of course, they *can* perceive it that way, but more often than not, they are simply kidding themselves.

As I previously noted, it isn't possible to be truly honest with someone who holds fundamentally different views from yours. Even if you tell them the truth, they will likely perceive every statement as a personal attack.

People in rural areas tend to be more straightforward and less complicated. Perhaps not as much today, but twenty years ago, the value system was much simpler; people said what they meant and had little patience for the pretension of urban society. They didn't care for the linguistic gymnastics used in cities, so speaking plainly was how the rural community distinguished itself, and it was largely why urbanites looked down on them. There were other reasons for that condescension, too, but primarily it was the assumption that rural life was somehow primitive. My own experiences living in small-town America have been similar; there is no beating around the bush. People are direct.

I firmly believe that honesty is always the right path, provided that what you have to say isn't delivered in an insulting manner. It is certainly not the same as telling a friend: "Your wife is cheating on you and everyone is laughing at you behind your back because you're such an idiot!"
Compare that to saying: "I've heard some things. I really don't want to hurt you, but perhaps you should look into who your wife is spending her time with."

And that’s the bottom line. You were honest, yet you didn't cause any unnecessary offense.

velvetranger16 said:I firmly believe that honesty is always the right path, provided that what you have to say isn't delivered in an insulting manner. It is certainly not the same as telling a friend: "Your wife is cheating on you and everyone is laughing at you behind your back because you're such an idiot!"
Compare that to saying: "I've heard some things. I really don't want to hurt you, but perhaps you should look into who your wife is spending her time with."

And that’s the bottom line. You were honest, yet you didn't cause any unnecessary offense.

😉

Whether you sugarcoat it or not, information like that is sharper than a razor,
and it can wreck a man and his marriage because:
-he might already know but isn't ready to face the music—so by bringing it up, you're cornering him, humiliating him, or forcing a choice he isn't prepared to make (like a massive blowout fight or a divorce).
-or he genuinely doesn't know, and suddenly his entire world collapses, leaving him in total agony and heartbreak...
This is just one random example, but honestly? Honesty isn't some flag you should wave around recklessly without considering the wreckage you leave in your wake.
In fact, that old American proverb:
"Speech is silver, but silence is golden"
perfectly captures the idea that nothing—not even honesty or the truth—is universally applicable in every single situation...☕

Dennis Adams said:So, look, everyone loves to preach about how honesty is this ultimate virtue... until someone actually pulls you aside and tells you straight up that you messed up. It’s easy to talk the talk when things are smooth, right? But personally, I have massive respect for friends who can just tell me when I’ve screwed up. When someone gives it to me straight, my respect for them just shoots up instantly. To me, that’s the real sign of a close bond. Then you’ve got those other types, though—people who’d much rather sugarcoat everything and wrap their words in velvet just to keep things "pleasant." It makes me wonder... have we all just become total emotional snowflakes? Like, if someone is just being blunt with you—not even trying to trash you in front of a crowd, just being real—do you immediately lose respect for them? For example, I honestly find myself respecting Donald Trump’s style way more because he’ll tell you exactly what’s on his mind. Compare that to Barack Obama, who acts all delicate and polished, saying everything so perfectly while who knows what he's actually thinking behind that calm exterior. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Donald Trump is some saint or a perfect guy, but when it comes to raw honesty, I’ll take that unrefined, blunt approach over a polished, high-society act any day of the week. What's your take on this? Which camp do you fall into? (And seriously, be honest)

I've always been super blunt with everyone..
Sadly, people claim they want honesty, but they can't handle the truth, so I pretty much gave up on being real with anyone a long time ago.🙂

Look, being honest is a huge virtue, right? A massive one. But man, it’s a double-edged sword. If you aim that honesty at the wrong crowd, you’re basically asking to get burned. It sucks, but I guess the silver lining is that it's a quick way to figure out who the losers are. Once you realize someone can't handle the truth, you just cut them loose and go find your people—the ones who actually value you for being real. That’s the theory, anyway. Flip that logic on its head and you'll see how messy things actually get in the real world. Honestly, though, I don't think there's any real rulebook for this stuff.

A fellow forum member once posted here: "If a truth serves no purpose to anyone, there is no need to utter it." I believe that is the perfect answer to this question! 🙂

Dennis Adams said:So, look, everyone loves to preach about how honesty is this ultimate virtue... until someone actually pulls you aside and tells you straight up that you messed up. It’s easy to talk the talk when things are smooth, right? But personally, I have massive respect for friends who can just tell me when I’ve screwed up. When someone gives it to me straight, my respect for them just shoots up instantly. To me, that’s the real sign of a close bond. Then you’ve got those other types, though—people who’d much rather sugarcoat everything and wrap their words in velvet just to keep things "pleasant." It makes me wonder... have we all just become total emotional snowflakes? Like, if someone is just being blunt with you—not even trying to trash you in front of a crowd, just being real—do you immediately lose respect for them? For example, I honestly find myself respecting Donald Trump’s style way more because he’ll tell you exactly what’s on his mind. Compare that to Barack Obama, who acts all delicate and polished, saying everything so perfectly while who knows what he's actually thinking behind that calm exterior. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Donald Trump is some saint or a perfect guy, but when it comes to raw honesty, I’ll take that unrefined, blunt approach over a polished, high-society act any day of the week. What's your take on this? Which camp do you fall into? (And seriously, be honest)

If you're comparing Trump and Obama, you're talking business. Business requires a certain level of decorum. Everyone wants to tell their boss to get lost when they're stressed, but you can't—there's such a thing as professional etiquette and diplomacy. Otherwise, people would just be swinging hammers at each other. Honesty is great for friendships, sure, but in politics or corporate life? Not always. You also have to pick your battles. A dishonest person will just weaponize your transparency against you. On the flip side, having someone honest across from you makes communication easy because you actually know where you stand.

Chris Peterson53 said:😉

Whether you sugarcoat it or not, information like that is sharper than a razor,
and it can wreck a man and his marriage because:
-he might already know but isn't ready to face the music—so by bringing it up, you're cornering him, humiliating him, or forcing a choice he isn't prepared to make (like a massive blowout fight or a divorce).
-or he genuinely doesn't know, and suddenly his entire world collapses, leaving him in total agony and heartbreak...
This is just one random example, but honestly? Honesty isn't some flag you should wave around recklessly without considering the wreckage you leave in your wake.
In fact, that old American proverb:
"Speech is silver, but silence is golden"
perfectly captures the idea that nothing—not even honesty or the truth—is universally applicable in every single situation...☕

And hey, there's also the chance she confesses, he forgives her, they stay together, and you just end up being the black sheep for sticking your nose where it doesn't belong. So, here's my honest take:😁

ironmarlin1 said:Not by a long shot! Honestly, the whole notion that being "sincere" is some sort of moral gold standard is one of the most dangerous misconceptions out there. What people are actually starving for isn't mere honesty, but true authenticity. See, the thing about people who claim to be sincere is that they rarely have any clue just how much they are actually kidding themselves. The fundamental flaw in their logic is this shaky assumption—this massive, unexamined premise—that they truly understand their own inner workings and that when they speak about their intentions, those motives are perfectly transparent even to themselves. It’s one of those basic, sweeping errors in judgment that people make all the time.

Hey, I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.

The only thing is, I'd argue you should've gone a step further and pointed out that people who brag about being honest usually don't realize just how deep their own self-deception goes.

ironmarlin1 said:Not by a long shot! Honestly, the whole notion that being "sincere" is some sort of moral gold standard is one of the most dangerous misconceptions out there. What people are actually starving for isn't mere honesty, but true authenticity. See, the thing about people who claim to be sincere is that they rarely have any clue just how much they are actually kidding themselves. The fundamental flaw in their logic is this shaky assumption—this massive, unexamined premise—that they truly understand their own inner workings and that when they speak about their intentions, those motives are perfectly transparent even to themselves. It’s one of those basic, sweeping errors in judgment that people make all the time.

wow. Excellent. You hit the nail right on the head.

Authenticity.

By the way, it is a profound art to master the balance between true sincerity and simply minding one's own business.

And we haven't even touched upon another incredibly vital factor: the lady known as Perception.

My perception of reality and the perception of the person I am communicating with are frequently two entirely distinct viewpoints, shaped by different angles of the perceptual prism.

To put it bluntly, my truth does not necessarily have to be someone else's, and therefore, why should someone else's "honesty" imply that their vocalized version of reality is somehow more accurate than mine?

Take, for example, Silvana from my old office in Chicago. She was always, if you'll excuse my bluntness, bragging about how incredibly honest she was. Her version of honesty consisted of telling people straight to their faces if they were lazy, scatterbrained, or incompetent. That was how she viewed the world, and she prided herself on her integrity because she believed she was "the only one with the guts to tell everyone exactly what she thinks."

Aside from the fact that Silvana was quite foolish, there is no doubt she wounded several wonderful people along the way. These individuals weren't actually exhibiting the character flaws she so "HONESTLY" criticized; rather, Silvana would use her precision to hunt for the tiniest tragic flaw or minor mistake in someone else, and then use her "HONESTY" to lash out as a means of asserting dominance.

A significant number of people interpret honesty as a license to say whatever they want to anyone. This has nothing to do with intelligence, because, for heaven's sake, HOW on earth could YOU possibly know what everyone else needs to hear?

So, yes, a brilliant observation from ironmarlin1 up there.

There is nothing in nature more beautiful than authenticity.

In this recent chapter of my life, I have met several people who are truly authentic in their behavior. They aren't threatening, and they aren't inhibited by anything; they simply *are*. They certainly have flaws—some quite irritating ones, actually—but they radiate such a sense of being their true selves that they practically glow. They are beautiful precisely because they are unapologetically themselves.

As for this whole business regarding honesty...

Of course, if someone close to you is, say, struggling with a serious addiction, you might need to give them a reality check and honestly tell them to get their act together. Or perhaps you'll be brutally honest with someone if they are driving you absolutely insane. But in almost every other discipline... if you aren't authentic with yourself, you hardly have any right to attempt being "honest" with others.

When you’re dealing with people who have bad intentions, you start seeing virtue where there is none, while everyone else just sees your own flaws. ☕ It's something she's realized over and over again, in more ways than I can count.

I always remember my grandmother saying that when someone asks how you're doing, just say "fine." It works every single time.
Your friends will be happy for you, and your enemies? They won't get the satisfaction.

ironmarlin1 said:Not by a long shot! Honestly, the whole notion that being "sincere" is some sort of moral gold standard is one of the most dangerous misconceptions out there. What people are actually starving for isn't mere honesty, but true authenticity. See, the thing about people who claim to be sincere is that they rarely have any clue just how much they are actually kidding themselves. The fundamental flaw in their logic is this shaky assumption—this massive, unexamined premise—that they truly understand their own inner workings and that when they speak about their intentions, those motives are perfectly transparent even to themselves. It’s one of those basic, sweeping errors in judgment that people make all the time.

Nice response. Short and to the point.

Personally, I can't stand "honest" people. Especially the ones who make it their whole personality. I know a few folks who brag about being brutally honest. To them, being honest just means blurting out whatever they think is the absolute truth at the worst possible moment, acting like it’s their job to enlighten everyone else. And usually, nobody even asked for their opinion.

When I used the word honest, I wasn't talking about some cynical asshole who just wanders around shoving their opinions down everyone's throat when nobody asked. That’s not it. I was talking about friends, you know? Not some random stranger I'm meeting for the first time. If there's one thing life has taught me, it's that still waters run deep, so I'm always a little skeptical of people who seem way too perfect. Too often, those folks acting like the life of the party or playing the "good guy" are just putting on a massive show, while behind closed doors they turn out to be totally shady and manipulative. I said I value honesty because, with my actual friends, I at least know where I stand. Like, what do I even care if some random person is being "honest" with me?

I believe honesty is a virtue, but you really have to watch how you deliver it.
If you just blunt-force a painful truth onto someone without thinking first,
they’re obviously going to hold it against you, regardless of whether your intentions were good.

Dennis Adams said:So, look, everyone loves to preach about how honesty is this ultimate virtue... until someone actually pulls you aside and tells you straight up that you messed up. It’s easy to talk the talk when things are smooth, right? But personally, I have massive respect for friends who can just tell me when I’ve screwed up. When someone gives it to me straight, my respect for them just shoots up instantly. To me, that’s the real sign of a close bond. Then you’ve got those other types, though—people who’d much rather sugarcoat everything and wrap their words in velvet just to keep things "pleasant." It makes me wonder... have we all just become total emotional snowflakes? Like, if someone is just being blunt with you—not even trying to trash you in front of a crowd, just being real—do you immediately lose respect for them? For example, I honestly find myself respecting Donald Trump’s style way more because he’ll tell you exactly what’s on his mind. Compare that to Barack Obama, who acts all delicate and polished, saying everything so perfectly while who knows what he's actually thinking behind that calm exterior. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Donald Trump is some saint or a perfect guy, but when it comes to raw honesty, I’ll take that unrefined, blunt approach over a polished, high-society act any day of the week. What's your take on this? Which camp do you fall into? (And seriously, be honest)

I mostly fall into the group that will tell the truth even if it makes me look bad. Sometimes I regret it, thinking maybe silence would have been easier, and other times I just lay it all out there without filtering my vocabulary at all. I'd much rather deal with someone telling me the truth to my face than deal with liars or hypocrites, no matter how much the truth stings.

Honesty is only a virtue if what we’re actually saying matches the real facts about the subject at hand.

And when you are dropping truth bombs, I think you have to be mindful of the person you're talking to—their headspace, their social situation, all that. You should tailor the message to fit the moment without watering down the actual truth.

But let's be real, figuring out what the actual truth is... is usually pretty damn hard. Most of the time, it's just our own version of logic....