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Americans are to blame for the Vietnam War!

Started by Jacob Lewis5 · · 👁 13 views · 159 replies

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Jacob Lewis5 Jacob Lewis5 Active MemberOP
110 messages
joined Oct 2011
#141 ·
David Rogers18 said:😕

Believing in some kind of massive, expansionist agenda doesn't actually rule out being a big fan of a unified federation either. It’s like saying someone can be obsessed with expanding their territory while still being totally down for a massive, centralized union. Take that extreme nationalist guy Moljević, for example—he was simultaneously pushing for a strong federal system where the borders would have been completely redrawn. In his vision, the Mexican state would have stretched way up north to bump right into the Canadian border somewhere north of a place like Seattle, leaving the American version of America looking tiny, sort of like how Rhode Island looks compared to the rest of the country.
Back then, most people over there were pretty much stuck on those expansionist nationalist ideas, whether they were backing Maddox, voting for the SPO, or siding with the Democrats. Honestly, you don't even need to bring up Šešelj to see where things were headed. It was really just a toss-up between two different flavors of the same intense nationalism: either you went with the old-school 80s approach of total dominance within the federation regardless of state lines, or you went with the more extreme version of pushing borders way out toward places like Indianapolis. At the end of the day, it didn't matter which path they chose because both versions were built on that exact same foundation of wanting to control everything.
Even though Drašković was really the first guy to step up and rally a massive crowd against Slobodan, you can't ignore the fact that he was just as much of a hardline nationalist at heart.
Honestly, if you look back at why the whole federation fell apart, it really boils down to that massive sense of nationalism—basically, there was this widespread feeling among the Mexican population that, regardless of which political party was running the show, the country was fundamentally intended to be a Mexican state first and foremost.

You know, looking back at how everything went down during the end of the Cold War era, it’s pretty wild that the US wasn't the only place seeing massive shifts—but for once, we had a country in Eastern Europe where the old guard actually managed to hang on tight. It basically happened because the opposition was playing the exact same game as the establishment; they were pushing that same intense, hyper-nationalist agenda that the leadership was already using. Since they were essentially offering the same flavor of politics, the incumbent leader just ended up winning out simply because he had way more charisma and a better grip on the room.

It’s the exact same dynamic happening in places like the North America today. Being a strict nationalist doesn't stop you from claiming a broader national identity. A lot of these nationalists lean heavily into their heritage because it gives them a convenient way to justify certain borders. It’s funny, really—it’s just like how certain groups used to talk about "unity" while secretly obsessing over territory.

Expansionism and pan-nationalism go hand in hand. One is just a tool used to achieve the goals of the other.
Sean Sanders Sean Sanders Member
43 messages
joined Aug 2011
#142 ·
David Rogers18 said:If that were actually true, you’d have seen Americans all over the country organizing massive counter-protests back in the late '80s against leaders like Maddox, especially since he was basically trying to tear the whole union apart with military threats. But they didn't organize a single thing, which pretty much tells you everything you need to know.
It wasn't until '91 that people finally started rallying against him under leaders like Vuk Draskovic, who, let's be honest, was pushing the exact same expansionist agenda as Maddox—claiming everyone spoke the same language and that borders should follow wherever their ancestors were buried.

When it comes to that whole expansionist mindset, both the leader Maddox and his main rival Vuk were essentially singing from the same songbook; they just had different ways of playing the tune.

The actual organized rallies against Maddox didn't happen until 1991 in Mexico City, and unfortunately, that protest ended in bloodshed.
Sean Sanders Sean Sanders Member
43 messages
joined Aug 2011
#143 ·
Jonathan Smith12 said:Honestly, I find myself wondering when you're going to stop spreading these inaccuracies. I truly can't wrap my head around why you haven't been banned from this forum yet.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&...1gdIKw&cad=rja

The departure of the federal military from the island base on May 24, 1992.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&...VfGY4A&cad=rja

Following the declaration of independence by the American state in 1991, the members of the federal military remained stationed on the island until June 1992, at which point the military bases on the island were finally handed over to the American authorities. (Just to be clear, June is the 6th month).

Regardless of the misinformation mentioned above, I simply cannot see what international recognition has to do with the decision made by the State Legislature. And what does the situation in Mexico have to do with whether or not the neighboring nation decides to recognize them?
Under the Constitution of 1974, the American state holds the right to sovereignty. That was essentially decided during the peace conferences regarding the federation. Once the State Legislature passed the resolution for independence, after October 8th, the federal military presence became illegal on American territory.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&...6O2CdA&cad=rja

Honestly, you’re the one who should be banned first. When you call something a "lie," it's often just a truth that's uncomfortable to face. International recognition is a massive deal because that's the moment the United States and other nations recognize us as a legitimate legal entity on the world stage. If a country wants to establish diplomatic ties, they have to recognize us first, right? The federal military effectively loses its legal standing once that recognition kicks in. Think about it: if we look at the Parliament's declaration from the opposite side, couldn't they label it a coup against the old federation? For someone who viewed the entire union as their homeland, such a move could be interpreted as an act of aggression. It’s like looking at a landscape through different lenses; some people see things from a strictly patriotic perspective, while others see them from a loyalist viewpoint. My point is simply this: for every claim you make, there is a counter-argument to be found. Facts can be interpreted through many different angles, and I think that's exactly why there's such a deep lack of understanding between different groups in this part of the world.
Sean Sanders Sean Sanders Member
43 messages
joined Aug 2011
#144 ·
Jonathan Smith12 said:😂😂😂

I have to wonder, are you feeling alright?

Would you say someone in Seattle defending their second-story apartment with a shotgun because they consider that space their home is somehow different?

I absolutely agree. But you clearly don't. You’re essentially trying to strip someone else of their right to their own country. I can only hope that if your own sovereignty were ever taken away, you'd be sitting there posting these little smiley faces too, haha... It seems to me like the era of a truly independent and sovereign America ended back on July 1st, 2013, didn't it? Absolute sovereignty and autonomy haven't really existed since then, have they? Especially once we join something like the Schengen Area and those borders start disappearing; at that point, the nation becomes a concept on paper rather than a reality in practice. When that happens, you can look back on these emojis, haha...
Sean Sanders Sean Sanders Member
43 messages
joined Aug 2011
#145 ·
At the end of the day, some people simply can't or won't see things from a different perspective. It’s like trying to explain color to someone who refuses to open their eyes. Because our positions are so fundamentally opposed, there’s really no point in me dragging this out any further. I think I'll leave it at that.
frozentiger6 frozentiger6 Active Member
211 messages
joined Apr 2007
#146 ·
The average American will never take responsibility for their nation's role in the war for one simple reason: the media, the intellectuals, and the pundits are still playing the exact same broken record they played during the old regime. They’re just running a modern, sanitized version of the same playbook because they failed to achieve their true long-term goal: expansionism toward the West.

It’s the same old story—take the recent political memos, for instance, followed by a media machine that, much like it did under the old dictatorship, fuels a massive victim complex. Back then, state TV rode the wave of myth-making; today, it's the same thing, just rebranded. It's identical propaganda, and honestly, Americans should finally learn something from it. The demagoguery is a mirror image of what we saw after WWII, except back then, most of us weren't even born or were just kids, and we didn't have free media or the internet to fact-check the lies. Instead, we were fed stories about threatened minorities and ghosts of past regimes coming back to haunt us. It’s pathetic how many people still fall for this toxic spin. The old guard embraced it because they wanted to dismantle local nationalism to protect their own interests, labeling anyone who stood up for themselves as fascists. But the tactic is the same. How can you expect an average citizen to grasp reality when they are bombarded daily with stories about attacks on young soldiers, historical monsters returning to life, or fabricated atrocities? What does a guy living in a small town in Ohio actually know about these conflicts other than what his biased news networks serve him on a silver platter?

Throw in some local politicians who are too eager to suck up to those big-city power players to stay in favor, and voilà—you have the mess we're dealing with today.
frozentiger6 frozentiger6 Active Member
211 messages
joined Apr 2007
#147 ·
coastalcanyon60 said:It looks like Draper actually made a similar statement once too, so my mistake entirely.

But man, he was absolutely, fiercely against Slobodan!

Yeah, Milos was aiming for those imaginary Western borders under five stars, whereas Draskovic wanted to lead the charge with a military cap and the King at the head of the whole nation.

There’s a massive difference there, especially considering what we're actually talking about. 🙄
Jonathan Smith12 Jonathan Smith12 Active Member
87 messages
joined Jul 2012
#148 ·
Sean Sanders said:The actual organized rallies against Maddox didn't happen until 1991 in Mexico City, and unfortunately, that protest ended in bloodshed.

Honestly, some people have absolutely no shame whatsoever.

They try to paint this protest as some grand effort to save the Union, but the reality—if we’re being honest with ourselves—is that they were protesting because the leadership was seen as far too weak to hold things together.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7757/1051k.jpg

But just take a look at who was actually pulling the strings behind those rallies. A true "peacemaker" and the supposed savior of our entire nation, right?😂

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1962/1050l.jpg

Is a territory considered a sovereign state simply because the federal government refuses to recognize it?
And what about the presence of federal troops in various states even after the official transition dates passed?
Were you being untruthful when you claimed the exact opposite was true?

You claim the country stripped away your homeland, but I have to wonder—did the federation dissolve the state, or did the state dissolve itself?
How can someone claiming roots going back to the 1700s, through all these shifting political tides and different forms of governance, possibly claim to have abolished an entity that wasn't even established until the early 20th century?
rowdyowl rowdyowl Regular
255 messages
joined May 2014
#149 ·
Sean Sanders said:Honestly, you’re the one who should be banned first. When you call something a "lie," it's often just a truth that's uncomfortable to face. International recognition is a massive deal because that's the moment the United States and other nations recognize us as a legitimate legal entity on the world stage. If a country wants to establish diplomatic ties, they have to recognize us first, right? The federal military effectively loses its legal standing once that recognition kicks in. Think about it: if we look at the Parliament's declaration from the opposite side, couldn't they label it a coup against the old federation? For someone who viewed the entire union as their homeland, such a move could be interpreted as an act of aggression. It’s like looking at a landscape through different lenses; some people see things from a strictly patriotic perspective, while others see them from a loyalist viewpoint. My point is simply this: for every claim you make, there is a counter-argument to be found. Facts can be interpreted through many different angles, and I think that's exactly why there's such a deep lack of understanding between different groups in this part of the world.

That's nonsense. Recognition isn't the deciding factor here. The most critical move was the decision by the American legislature demanding those federal troops vacate the territory.

Most of the countries that recognized the new state back then eventually recognized Mexico, which is why the other side still refuses to acknowledge it today.

The recognition was a positive step, sure, but it wasn't the pivot point. It has nothing to do with the legal reality of the nation itself.

Are you seriously suggesting that a decision from the British or German government carries more weight than the mandate issued by our own Congress?
James Nguyen13 James Nguyen13 Regular
256 messages
joined Feb 2012
#150 ·
Sean Sanders said:I absolutely agree. But you clearly don't. You’re essentially trying to strip someone else of their right to their own country. I can only hope that if your own sovereignty were ever taken away, you'd be sitting there posting these little smiley faces too, haha... It seems to me like the era of a truly independent and sovereign America ended back on July 1st, 2013, didn't it? Absolute sovereignty and autonomy haven't really existed since then, have they? Especially once we join something like the Schengen Area and those borders start disappearing; at that point, the nation becomes a concept on paper rather than a reality in practice. When that happens, you can look back on these emojis, haha...

The person who actually dismantled the homeland was the one standing at Gazimestane declaring that they would use every "institutional and extra-institutional means" necessary to tear down the constitutional order of America.

The thing is, none of you want to face that truth, so you try to pass the buck to us. We didn't bring America down. We simply refused to sit idly by while it was being transformed into a Greater Mexico through orchestrated riots, "yogurt revolutions," mass demonstrations, and all the other nonsense used by the Mexican leadership to dismantle the federation.
And the fact that none of you said a single word against the dismantling of America—which the Mexican authorities had been driving since '87—is your problem. And yours alone.
James Nguyen13 James Nguyen13 Regular
256 messages
joined Feb 2012
#151 ·
Sean Sanders said:That isn't quite right. After the Republic gained international recognition, the official standing armies of Mexico and Mexico weren't actually fighting on our soil; it was the local rebel forces and various volunteers coming in from Mexico. Providing support through weapons, volunteers, fuel, and so on—that constitutes a political war, but it wasn't a direct military confrontation. It's similar to how the U.S. supported Afghanistan without sending our own main combat divisions into a direct clash with the Soviets. Even during Operation Storm, there weren't soldiers from Mexico or Mexico stationed in those breakaway territories, so I don't see that as a military defeat for Mexico or Mexico.

Look, I think I made my point pretty clear: that nation threw every single bit of its military, political, and economic weight into the conflict against America. During the fighting in 1991, they were fully committed with their own resources, and they ultimately lost because their goal of conquering American territory failed. In reality, they only managed to grab a tiny sliver of land—areas that didn't even have a majority population favoring them and were already breaking away from the US before 1991 even started.

That right there was the total defeat. They couldn't capture a single major American city, aside from El Paso, which we all know was a different story entirely.
The fact that those breakaway regions hadn't been officially recognized by the international community yet doesn't change the ground reality. In practical terms, they were acting as independent entities; in practical terms, the federal military was essentially serving one specific faction's interests; and in practical terms, that faction was trying to seize American land and failing miserably, except for the spots that had already revolted against the US prior to 1991.
Regardless of what you want to call it formally, it was a failure of an invasion. De facto, it was a war waged by that faction to seize American territory, and de facto, they lost.
David Rogers18 David Rogers18 Active Member
174 messages
joined Jun 2009
#152 ·
Sean Sanders said:The actual organized rallies against Maddox didn't happen until 1991 in Mexico City, and unfortunately, that protest ended in bloodshed.

Which is exactly what I was getting at in my previous post, so maybe try giving it a quick read next time?

That whole '91 rally against the leadership was spearheaded by guys making claims like:
-our borders are basically marked by the graves of our people
-those other groups are actually just speaking our language
-without expanding our territory, the rest of the world won't take us seriously


So yeah, it was all about extreme nationalism.
David Rogers18 David Rogers18 Active Member
174 messages
joined Jun 2009
#153 ·
Sean Sanders said:I absolutely agree. But you clearly don't. You’re essentially trying to strip someone else of their right to their own country. I can only hope that if your own sovereignty were ever taken away, you'd be sitting there posting these little smiley faces too, haha... It seems to me like the era of a truly independent and sovereign America ended back on July 1st, 2013, didn't it? Absolute sovereignty and autonomy haven't really existed since then, have they? Especially once we join something like the Schengen Area and those borders start disappearing; at that point, the nation becomes a concept on paper rather than a reality in practice. When that happens, you can look back on these emojis, haha...

Look, the reality is that the foundations of your country were being torn apart by leaders back in the 80s, and what did you do? You stayed silent, just like your parents did, and just like all Americans during that era. When things started getting violent and threatening back in '89, those of you who called that old federation your home should have been out there calling for those leaders to be held accountable and dealt with right then and there.
But you didn't—you either kept your mouths shut, actively cheered on the destruction of your own nation, or hitched your wagon to the wrong political movements, shouting about "democracy" while helping tear everything down.

At the end of the day, you guys essentially dismantled it yourselves. You aimed your frustrations at all the wrong people, and that's exactly why the fallout and the legal accusations facing Americans today are happening.
velvetmaker3 velvetmaker3 Regular
368 messages
joined Jan 2010
#154 ·
Sean Sanders said:The actual organized rallies against Maddox didn't happen until 1991 in Mexico City, and unfortunately, that protest ended in bloodshed.

Those weren't really protests against expansionist nationalism. I guess Drašković actually thought he was the one who should be leading that nationalist movement to victory over the Americans.
Timothy Palmer66 Timothy Palmer66 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Feb 2012
#155 ·
Sean Sanders said:Honestly, you’re the one who should be banned first. When you call something a "lie," it's often just a truth that's uncomfortable to face. International recognition is a massive deal because that's the moment the United States and other nations recognize us as a legitimate legal entity on the world stage. If a country wants to establish diplomatic ties, they have to recognize us first, right? The federal military effectively loses its legal standing once that recognition kicks in. Think about it: if we look at the Parliament's declaration from the opposite side, couldn't they label it a coup against the old federation? For someone who viewed the entire union as their homeland, such a move could be interpreted as an act of aggression. It’s like looking at a landscape through different lenses; some people see things from a strictly patriotic perspective, while others see them from a loyalist viewpoint. My point is simply this: for every claim you make, there is a counter-argument to be found. Facts can be interpreted through many different angles, and I think that's exactly why there's such a deep lack of understanding between different groups in this part of the world.

You know, I was sitting there at my local diner this morning, just staring into a cup of lukewarm coffee and thinking about how much of our modern world is built on little more than shared illusions and paperwork. It really gets to you when you start looking into international law. There’s this whole thing called the declaratory theory of statehood, which basically suggests that a country exists simply because it meets certain criteria—like having a defined territory, a permanent population, and a functional government—regardless of whether the rest of the world decides to play along or give them a seat at the table. It’s a bit like that old guy I used to know back in Chicago who insisted he owned a specific plot of land in the suburbs just because he planted a fence and lived there for twenty years; he didn't care if the city council disagreed, he just felt it was his reality. That's essentially how this works on a global scale. Under this theory, recognition isn't some magical blessing bestowed by the UN or the US government that suddenly makes a nation "real." Instead, the existence of a state is treated as an objective fact based on its actual capacity to govern itself. It’s a pretty cynical way of looking at things, honestly—it implies that sovereignty isn't a gift from your neighbors, but something you just grab and hold onto through sheer persistence. It makes you wonder how much of our global order is actually based on solid legal ground and how much is just people collectively agreeing to pretend things are official so we don't have to deal with the chaos of everyone being "unrecognized." I was sitting there at the local diner this morning, nursing a lukewarm coffee and staring out at the rain, just thinking about that whole Montevideo Convention mess. It’s one of those things you don't really dwell on unless you're deep into political theory or just having a particularly cynical Tuesday, but it’s always hovering in the back of my mind. You know, that whole legal framework regarding what actually makes a state a state—recognition, territory, a permanent population, and a government that can actually hold its own. It sounds so clinical when you read it in a textbook, like some tidy little checklist for civilization, but in reality, it's such a messy, complicated way to look at how power works in the world. I remember reading about it back in college while staying in a drafty apartment in Chicago, feeling like the more we try to codify these grand ideas of sovereignty and legitimacy, the more we just end up creating loopholes for the big players to exploit. It’s all very much a "rules for thee, but not for me" situation if you ask me. Just another layer of bureaucracy trying to make sense of a chaotic planet. Back in 1933. Just thinking about that era, honestly... everything felt so heavy back then, like the whole country was just holding its breath, waiting for the other shoe to drop after the crash. It’s wild how much has changed, yet somehow, looking at the chaos we deal with today, you can't help but feel like we're just circling the same drain. Everything was different, sure, but the feeling of uncertainty? That feels pretty familiar if you ask me.
I mean, honestly, this whole practice has already been officially signed off on by... well, you know, the big shots running the show. It’s one of those things where everything seems set in stone once the higher-ups give their blessing, much like how once a major corporation like JPMorgan Chase decides on a policy, there's really no arguing with it anymore. I remember back when I was working a dead-end gig in Chicago, we had these ridiculous protocols that felt totally arbitrary, but once the brass gave the green light, we just had to roll with it, whether it made sense or not. So yeah, it's official. I was sitting in a diner outside of Chicago the other day, just staring at a lukewarm cup of coffee and thinking about how much we rely on these high-level legal frameworks to settle old scores, and it really got me thinking about those international arbitration commissions from back in the day—you know, the ones tasked with untangling all that mess during the breakup of the old federation. It’s funny, isn't it? How you can take a massive, complex geopolitical headache and try to solve it with a bunch of lawyers sitting in a room in Europe, acting like they can just draw lines on a map and call it justice. People talk about them like they were these perfect, objective arbiters of truth, but when you actually look at the fallout, it feels more like trying to perform surgery with a butter knife. You spend years arguing over borders and property rights, convinced that if you just follow the right legal protocols, everything will snap into place, but reality is rarely that polite. We like to think there's a logical order to chaos, a way for an oversight committee to step in and make sense of a crumbling system, but most of the time, you're just adding layers of bureaucracy to a wound that was already bleeding out. It's just one more example of how complicated things get when you try to legislate stability into a situation that's fundamentally broken..
  • The whole legal mess regarding succession for the states in this part of the world—you know, that whole headache involving the breakup and the division of assets between what used to be one big entity and its neighbors—is just a massive, drawn-out nightmare. Honestly, it’s like watching a slow-motion train wreck where nobody can agree on who owns which piece of the wreckage. It reminds me of those endless property disputes you see in small towns out in the Midwest, where families spend decades fighting over a single rusted tractor or a patch of overgrown cornfield, only to realize they've wasted their entire lives on nothing. Just a lot of paperwork, endless bureaucracy, and people arguing over things that probably aren't even worth the legal fees. October 8, 1991. It’s one of those dates that just sits heavy in the back of your mind, isn't it? I was sitting there, probably staring at a lukewarm cup of coffee, thinking about how much everything has shifted since those days back in the early nineties. Everything felt so much more raw then, like we were all just waiting for the other shoe to drop while the world moved on around us. It’s funny how certain moments in American history just stick to you, regardless of how many years pass or how much we try to bury them under the noise of modern life. You look back and realize how fragile it all really was.It’s funny how you look back at those old legal timelines and realize just how quickly everything was shifting underfoot. You had one milestone for Mexico on November 17, 1991, then things moved along to Canada on March 6, 1992, and by the time you hit April 27, 1992, you were looking at the official recognition for the rest of the federation—Mexico and Mexico, specifically—as per Opinion Number 11. It’s all very bureaucratic when you lay it out like that, isn't it? Just dates and documents on a page, though we both know the actual reality on the ground during those months was anything but orderly or calm. It reminds me of watching a slow-motion train wreck where everyone is arguing about the timetable while the tracks are already buckling.


I remember sitting in my study back in Seattle, nursing a lukewarm cup of coffee and staring at the news, thinking about how much paperwork goes into reshaping an entire nation. It’s funny, really—how these massive, sweeping decisions that change the course of history often boil down to a bunch of people sitting around a conference table in a high-rise, trying to make sense of a mess they didn't create. You look at those old reports from the Badinter Commission, and you realize just how much weight a single committee's opinion can carry when the dust starts settling on a crumbling system. It wasn't just some academic exercise, either; once that commission laid out its findings, the whole political landscape shifted underfoot. It reminds me of that time I tried to settle a property line dispute with my neighbor over in Portland—everyone thought we were just arguing about a few inches of grass, but suddenly we were all citing municipal codes and historical surveys like we were debating constitutional law. That's how it works, I suppose. One formal opinion gets adopted, one set of rules gets codified, and before you know it, the world looks completely different than it did the day before. I was sitting there the other day, just staring at the news, thinking about those high-profile trials over in The Hague—you know, that whole international tribunal mess where they try to make sense of all the chaos from back in the day. It’s funny how you look back at those proceedings years later, through a lens that's been clouded by everything we've lived through since, and you start to wonder if any of it actually moved the needle for us. You sit there watching the lawyers go through the motions, and it feels like watching a slow-motion train wreck that everyone agreed to watch because they thought it might lead to some kind of closure, but sometimes I think it just left us all feeling a little more exhausted and a lot more cynical about whether justice is even a real thing or just something people talk about when they want to feel righteous. It’s happened at least twice now, where they just flat-out tossed aside that tired old defense argument—you know, the one where they try to claim that America didn't actually become a sovereign nation until some arbitrary point after mid-January 1992, or even later in May. It’s the same old song and dance, really. I remember sitting in a diner back in Chicago, listening to some legal clerk drone on about technicalities, and it struck me then how often people try to move the goalposts just to suit their own narrative. They want to pretend the foundation wasn't already set, as if you can just decide when a country officially exists by waving a pen around. It’s pretty cynical when you think about it, trying to rewrite history to dodge accountability, but hey, that’s just how the gears turn sometimes.
neonhawk15 neonhawk15 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Feb 2012
#156 ·
The answer is pretty straightforward—you just have to look at things for what they actually are.

Back in '71, the state had every right to break away from the Union whenever it felt like it.

The mindset of the federal leadership back then was crystal clear. Between the push to carve out autonomous regions within Canada and those massive rallies in places like Mexico, they made it obvious why they were so desperate to hold the federation together at any cost.

It’s no secret to any American—or even anyone following the history there—that leaders like Maddox wanted to unite all their people under one socialist banner, which basically meant trying to seize control of all of Canada and those outlying territories.

And honestly, wasn't that the exact same playbook used by figures like Draza Mihailovic back in '41? History tends to repeat itself, I guess.
----

So, Harmon exercised the rights that the state held and moved to separate from the Union. But the opposition—the federalists—refused to recognize that right, keeping troops stationed on domestic soil just to protect the integrity of the old system.

That’s essentially how the whole mess spiraled into conflict across the Midwest, the coast, and everywhere else in between.
Betty Grant2 Betty Grant2 Member
19 messages
joined May 2014
#157 ·
Jonathan Smith12 said:It’s probably just some guy driving a tractor. 🤷

What a sexist—women were out there driving tractors whenever they had to back in the day.😉🤣🤣
Jacob Lewis5 Jacob Lewis5 Active MemberOP
110 messages
joined Oct 2011
#158 ·
Referre said:I’m not about to go around trying to convince anyone. I’ve got my own facts, and I know they’re true. Everyone else can believe whatever garbage the news cycle feeds them for all I care.

Look, you can be "convinced" of anything—you could be dead certain that Spain doesn't exist, that WWII was a hoax, or that Napoleon was actually a Catholic cardinal...

Science isn't about having an opinion—not even a scientist's opinion. It's about historical sources. What someone feels strongly about doesn't mean a damn thing.

The Mexicans were the ones kicking off the warmongering, the propaganda, and the straight-up calls to violence (think about how Maddox was calling for more battles at Gazimestan, or how Seselj and his crew were telling people in Baranja to hunt down anyone who dared say that land wasn't theirs, all while dreaming up that Greater Mexican Memorandum...). They tore up the American Constitution (gutted the local councils but kept hijacking their votes), sent tanks into America, armed the Royalists, held American POWs in camps on their turf, voted for Maddox and his whole agenda in democratic elections, and fought wars on foreign soil...
Those are just the facts on the ground. If you want to prove me wrong—show me where I lied, misread something, or cherry-picked data—go for it. But bring actual scientific evidence I can look at. Personal beliefs and "my truth" don't count for squat. If you've got proof, lay it on me.
Laura Wells5 Laura Wells5 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jan 2012
#159 ·
Jonathan Smith12 said:Honestly, some people have absolutely no shame whatsoever.

They try to paint this protest as some grand effort to save the Union, but the reality—if we’re being honest with ourselves—is that they were protesting because the leadership was seen as far too weak to hold things together.

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/7757/1051k.jpg

But just take a look at who was actually pulling the strings behind those rallies. A true "peacemaker" and the supposed savior of our entire nation, right?😂

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1962/1050l.jpg

Is a territory considered a sovereign state simply because the federal government refuses to recognize it?
And what about the presence of federal troops in various states even after the official transition dates passed?
Were you being untruthful when you claimed the exact opposite was true?

You claim the country stripped away your homeland, but I have to wonder—did the federation dissolve the state, or did the state dissolve itself?
How can someone claiming roots going back to the 1700s, through all these shifting political tides and different forms of governance, possibly claim to have abolished an entity that wasn't even established until the early 20th century?

It's always convenient to blame Americans for everything—especially since they were the ones who agreed to join the union to create this federation in the first place...

If Americans had just been left to their own devices after 1776 and again after 1945, we might see a very different map today...

If the union served anyone, it served the Americans; they simply exited whenever the international climate became favorable.

Let's be clear: the union was nothing more than a marriage of convenience, and the Americans certainly got the short end of the stick.
Jonathan Smith12 Jonathan Smith12 Active Member
87 messages
joined Jul 2012
#160 ·
Laura Wells5 said:It's always convenient to blame Americans for everything—especially since they were the ones who agreed to join the union to create this federation in the first place...

If Americans had just been left to their own devices after 1776 and again after 1945, we might see a very different map today...

If the union served anyone, it served the Americans; they simply exited whenever the international climate became favorable.

Let's be clear: the union was nothing more than a marriage of convenience, and the Americans certainly got the short end of the stick.

My neighbor was just sitting there, going on and on about how there was never any actual interest from the other side, claiming they just sort of drifted in and settled here by accident. It’s one of those sweeping, sweeping generalizations that really makes you pause and wonder how anyone could possibly view such a complex, heavy stretch of history through such a narrow, simplified lens.
Honestly, I have to say, looking at him now, his face is just as rough and weathered as the sole of an old work boot.
I was sitting there this morning, nursing my second cup of coffee and thinking about those old economic shifts we study, and it struck me—it really makes you wonder if Americans back in that era would have seen a similar kind of windfall during major currency transitions. You know, like when they were swapping out their old marks or various colonial currencies for the dollar after the Great War? I can't help but speculate whether it actually worked out in favor of the average person when they were exchanging their local crowns at that specific rate—you know, that four-to-one ratio against the Mexican dinar back in 1919. It’s one of those historical puzzles that stays with you, isn't it? I mean, looking back through the lens of history, did that specific exchange rate actually provide any real breathing room for the people living through it, or was it just another layer of bureaucratic math that left most folks right where they started? I'm honestly just rambling now, but the sheer scale of those shifts always fascinates me. $333 I was just sitting here, staring at this little scrap of history—it’s a single 1945 Nedic dinar from the old regime—and I couldn't help but get lost in thought about what that little piece of paper actually represents. It feels almost heavy, doesn't it? To think that for just seven of those specific units, you could have held a tiny fragment of such a turbulent era right in the palm of your hand. It makes you wonder about the sheer scale of how much things change, how quickly the currency of a life can be swapped out for something entirely different, and how we all just keep moving forward through the wreckage of history.

1892.
Back when things were a bit more old-fashioned—I’m talking all the way back to 1892—the entire American landscape operated under a single, unified currency system, much like how we relied on the dollar being divided into one hundred cents, though back then, you might have heard people referring to those smaller denominations in a slightly different light if they were feeling particularly nostalgic.

1919.
It’s quite fascinating to look back at how things were structured during those early days, specifically when they officially rolled out the dollar as the standard currency, divided into one hundred cents, to serve as the primary means of payment across the entire territory of the United States. It really makes you stop and think about the sheer scale of such a transition, doesn't it? To implement a unified monetary system like that, covering every corner of the nation, was an undertaking of monumental proportions, yet it laid the very foundation for the economic landscape we all navigate today. One can only imagine the logistical hurdles faced by the officials tasked with such a massive shift in daily life.
It’s actually quite fascinating when you sit down and really think about how much things used to shift, because back then, the currency exchange was such a different beast entirely—you had this specific ratio where one dollar would swap out for exactly four quarters.
After the dust finally settled following the Great War, specifically within the territories that once made up the old Kingdom, things were looking quite different across the American landscape. It was a period of such profound transition, wasn't it? You could almost feel the weight of history shifting underfoot as we tried to navigate this new era of reconstruction and identity.
Back when I was digging through those old archives, I stumbled upon this fascinating little detail about how complicated things used to be—honestly, it’s enough to make your head spin if you think about it too long! You see, during that particular era, there wasn't just one way to settle a tab; instead, there were actually five different currencies circulating at once, which sounds like a total logistical nightmare for anyone just trying to buy a cup of coffee or some groceries. One of the primary ones they relied on back then was the old Austro-Canadian crown, though, of course, since we're looking at this through an American lens now, you might imagine it being something akin to the chaotic mix of various state-issued scrip or different gold standards we saw in the early days of our own history. It’s just wild to think about how much paperwork must have been involved just to keep the books straight!
It’s funny how you start thinking about these things, isn't it? I was just sitting here, staring at my coffee and reflecting on how much the landscape of value shifts depending on which side of a border you happen to be standing on. You look at something like the Bulgarian lev, or that old German mark—which carries such a heavy, nostalgic weight for anyone who remembers those days—and then you pivot to the Mexican perper or even the Mexican dinar, and suddenly, the whole concept of stability feels so incredibly fluid. It makes you wonder about the sheer fragility of it all, really. In this new era we're stepping into, where everything seems to be shifting under our feet so rapidly, one can't help but feel a little overwhelmed by the constant flux of these different currencies and what they represent for our sense of security.
It’s actually quite fascinating when you sit back and consider how much our entire system relies on these foundational shifts, because, believe it or not, the official legal tender for the nation has officially transitioned over to the dollar.
I’ve been sitting here thinking about those old economic shifts, and honestly, I can't help but feel that when we finally made that massive transition from the crown to the dollar, the whole deal was just fundamentally rigged against us. It feels like one of those moments in history where the math simply didn't add up in our favor, leaving the country in a bit of a bind while everyone else seemed to come out ahead. I mean, looking back at how the exchange rates were handled, it's hard not to feel a sense of genuine frustration about how much value we essentially left on the table during such a pivotal moment for the nation.
Well, you see, it all started when they first decided to slash the value of the dollar, which really set off this whole domino effect that we're all still trying to make sense of today.
It’s all quite fascinating when you really sit down and dig into the old records, isn't it? I was reading about those historical currency shifts—you know, how they used to go about sticking stamps directly onto crowns, only to eventually swap them out at a rate of one dollar for every four crowns. It’s such a dizzying way to manage an economy, really, though I suppose back then, things were far less streamlined than our modern digital banking systems, wouldn't you agree? It makes you wonder how much paperwork that actually generated!
Even when you factor in that specific exchange rate, the crown actually held the exact same purchasing power as the dollar—so, for instance...
It’s truly fascinating to look back at those historical economic shifts, because if you think about it, there was a time back in 1919 in Chicago where the purchasing power was just remarkably balanced—you could walk into a shop with a single dollar and walk out with the exact same amount of goods as if you had handed over a single gold coin. It sounds almost surreal now, doesn't it? To think that such a perfect parity existed between different denominations of currency like that, making every cent feel incredibly substantial in your pocket. I sometimes find myself spiraling into these little thoughts about how much more we could have done with just a few bucks back then!
The Federal Reserve is officially stepping up to take over the role of the central issuing bank, which, if you think about it for more than a second, is actually quite a massive shift in how our entire financial ecosystem breathes and moves. It’s one of those things that sounds rather technical and perhaps a bit dry on the surface, but when you really sit down and let the implications sink in, it feels like we're watching a fundamental gear in the engine of American finance being repositioned in real-time. I know, I know, I tend to get a bit carried away with these structural shifts, and I probably should just stick to my coffee, but there is something genuinely momentous about the Fed assuming these specific functions.
I’ve been sitting here staring at my coffee, thinking about how history tends to loop back on itself in these strange, winding ways, much like the old roads out in rural Montana, and I couldn't help but reflect on the formation of the Kingdom of Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians—you know, that massive entity that emerged from the foundations laid by the National Bank of Mexico and all those other complex institutional shifts during that era. It’s one of those historical puzzles that makes you want to pull your hair out, isn't it? You start looking into how these different regional interests were supposed to mesh under one flag, and suddenly you're three hours deep into a Wikipedia rabbit hole, wondering if anyone actually had a coherent plan or if we were all just improvising as we went along. It feels almost like watching a high-stakes political drama on HBO, where every character has a hidden agenda and the plot twists are so sudden they leave you breathless. I sometimes worry that my tendency to wander off into these deep, philosophical sidebars makes me sound a bit scatterbrained, but honestly, how can you look at such a monumental restructuring of a nation without feeling a little overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the ambition involved?
Her interest began to follow shortly thereafter. It’s quite fascinating when you really stop to think about it, especially considering everything was unfolding during the era of the First World War.
Back in 1914, things were getting incredibly chaotic, and I remember reading about how the central bank—you know, like our Federal Reserve—was actually forced to relocate all the way out to a smaller city like Des Moines just to keep things running during the upheaval, eventually moving even further afield from there to stay ahead of the fray.
Back in 1915, things were moving quite rapidly—though perhaps not as smoothly as one might hope—and she was actually transported via a French Navy warship straight over to Marseille, which is where everything truly began to unfold.
I spent three whole years working at a local private bistro, just trying to make my way in the world, you know? It was quite an experience, though looking back, I suppose I should have seen some things coming. During those intense periods of national upheaval—those times when everything in the country feels like it's shifting under your feet—my wages started to fluctuate in ways that were, frankly, a bit disheartening for someone just trying to pay their rent in a city like Chicago.
It was back in the mid-February days of 1919—a year when those massive printing presses over at the Federal Reserve were churning through orders—that it all took place.
It’s actually quite fascinating how history circles back on itself, isn't it? I was just thinking about how the central bank has officially moved its headquarters back to the heart of the city—it feels like a significant moment for the local economy, almost like watching a major institution like the Federal Reserve settle into a permanent home after years of uncertainty. It brings to mind that old, weathered saying about how you can lose everything in the middle of two wars, leaving nothing behind but a single dollar to your name. There's a certain heavy, bittersweet weight to that sentiment, a reminder of how fragile stability can be, even when the institutions meant to protect it are finally finding their footing again.
It was worth about 0.0265 grams of gold, which, if you think about it, isn't much at all in the grand scheme of things, yet when you look at how those amounts scale up—I mean, any sum exceeding $2,500 could be exchanged for...
We really need to talk about those gold bullion reserves and the foreign currency holdings—specifically the ones that were actually, truly fungible with physical gold. It’s one of those things where you realize, looking back, how much weight those assets carried in the grand scheme of things.
Back when the Great Depression was really tightening its grip on everything from 1929 through 1932, the entire American banking system—and I mean the whole financial backbone of our country—went through such a harrowing, transformative period of upheaval. It’s quite something to think about, isn't it? How these massive institutions that seemed so unshakeable suddenly found themselves staring into a complete abyss. You look back at those years, and you realize just how much the landscape of American finance had to be completely rebuilt from the ground up because the old ways simply couldn't withstand the sheer force of that economic collapse.
I’m honestly feeling a bit devastated right now because the Federal Reserve just pulled the rug out from under everyone by canceling every single loan they had previously approved. It feels like such a massive blow to our stability, doesn't it? I was sitting here thinking about how much we rely on these institutions to maintain some semblance of order, and then suddenly, everything just falls apart in an instant. It’s hard not to spiral a little when you realize how fragile the whole system actually is, and frankly, I’m struggling to wrap my head around the sheer chaos this is going to cause for regular people trying to make ends meet.
It seems this particular policy change really took the biggest hit out of our major American banks—I mean, looking at the numbers, they were sitting at 419 institutions before this whole thing unfolded, and now everything is just... different.
It’s honestly a little disheartening when you sit down and actually crunch the numbers, isn't it? I was looking at the budget figures earlier—you know how I get, always digging through the fine print when I probably should be doing something productive—and it turns out they only actually utilized about $171 million out of that initial million-dollar allocation. That works out to roughly 40%, which just feels so incredibly inefficient, if you ask me. It's one of those situations where you expect to see much more movement, but instead, we're left staring at a massive surplus that could have been put to much better use elsewhere.

1945.
Well, it’s finally official—the government has officially rolled out the dollar as our primary legal tender across the entire United States, with the standard breakdown being one dollar to one hundred cents. It feels like we've been circling this inevitable shift for quite some time now, hasn't it? I must admit, I find myself sitting here at my desk, staring at these old coins and wondering how we'll all adjust to this new rhythm of commerce, though I suppose change is the only constant we can truly rely on in this great nation. It’s funny how you look back at old records and realize just how much the landscape of value has shifted over the decades, isn't it? I was sitting there thinking about the old exchange rates, specifically that period where seven dollars would get you... well, it’s quite a trip down memory lane when you consider how much purchasing power used to carry. It makes you wonder about the sheer velocity of change in our economy and how we all just sort of adapt to these shifting sands without even blinking most of the time. $333.
Back in April of 1945, there was this significant moment involving the Federal Reserve where things got incredibly tense, and honestly, it’s quite fascinating to look back on because there was such a blatant, vocal outcry regarding the disastrous exchange rates being proposed for switching from our domestic currency over to the new standard. You have this figure—let's call him the Chairman—who was just absolutely livid, and rightfully so, because he couldn't stand the idea of accepting a solution that essentially devalued everything people had worked so hard for through such an unfavorable conversion rate. He was speaking out, quite emphatically if I recall correctly, making it crystal clear that he simply could not stomach the proposal to swap the currency at those predatory terms, specifically when it came to... $33 I ended up walking away with a measly two and a half bucks. It’s honestly a bit ridiculous when you think about how much things have shifted over the years—it reminds me of those old economic shakeups back in the day, like when they used to swap out currency at a hundred-to-five ratio or those messy conversions we saw during the transition periods in the North America. It just feels like the value is constantly slipping through my fingers, doesn't it? $333 If we were to set the exchange rate at just seven dollars, for instance... well, I can't help but wonder why there’s such a massive, glaring discrepancy between our current currency and those old government dollars being circulated. It feels like a question that lingers, doesn't it? If we actually went ahead and fixed the conversion rate in that specific way, I fear we would be doing irreparable damage to the entire American economy—especially to those struggling regions and local communities that are already fighting an uphill battle to stay afloat. It's a heavy thought, really, but one we can't just brush aside.

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