The Philosophy of Self-Reliance

Ronald Rogers27 said:What you and driftingbear20 are talking about is just hot air. Pure nonsense. It's all just bar talk—big talker stories about planes and trucks... Just endless chatter typical of those old-school social circles in the North America. I've seen enough of those types of groups in my life to know how it goes.

(And when the waiter comes to settle the tab, everyone suddenly stares at their shoes and waits for someone else to pick up the check!) 😬

Ronald Rogers27

It actually reminds me of a friend I grew up with. She’s been living and working abroad for two decades now. We went on vacation together once for a few days. We both put an equal amount of cash into one pile and agreed we’d just spend from that pile until it was gone. It was honestly surreal watching her struggle to let go of every single dollar from that stack. She’d sit there in the apartment at night, obsessively tracking every little coffee we bought in her wallet, just obsessing over the minutiae...😁 She makes four times what I make every month and doesn't even have a family to support.
She used to be totally normal, and I love her, we grew up together, but if you can't relax and spend the money you already set aside for a trip, it just shows you view life solely through the lens of net worth, and you assume everyone else does too... which, of course, just invites people to take advantage of you. I mean, sure, some people are like that, but please don't think that just because two people grab a coffee, they haven't already decided they have the $5.00 to cover it and that they're actually focused on the person they're with rather than looking for a free ride. 😲

redtinker36 said:I don't mean to overstep—not by much—but I really feel I should point out that the only truly vital questions being asked here are the ones posed by ironmarlin1.
It’s similar to how one might argue from a purely philosophical standpoint—much like Dostoevsky’s fractured logic—that everyone is entitled to do whatever they can to another person right up until the moment they get caught.
On the flip side, there is the very practical, very human question: do I really need to buy those shoes when I know someone else—say, a struggling family in a small town in Ohio—can't even afford books for their kids?
I’ll admit my own limitations—my thinking is a bit old-school, perhaps a relic of outdated ideologies—but regardless of how brilliant you all may be, you’ll never solve this dilemma from the perspective of an outsider who has nothing to gain.
What I am trying to say is this: if I were forced to face this choice at its most extreme level—to either succumb to the problem or die trying—I hope I would choose death. And I hope God gives me enough strength to meet that end with a smile (even if, personally, I have no intention of handing my hard-earned dollars over to anyone for books).

Those are profound questions. It's good to give them as concrete answers as possible.
I'll take Cervantes as an example, since he wrote so much about his children.
I believe he could fill an entire semi-truck with his justifications regarding sacrificing things for their shoes or books.😍
But truly, to me, it sounds much more beautiful, much more noble, if we talk about setting things aside for other children, strangers, who are actually in need.

ironmarlin1 said:If basking in the neon glow of some corporate office while counting your stacks makes you happy, then go right ahead. I think I made my point quite clearly: the only real options are to become pathologically obsessed with wealth or to view every human being as nothing more than a tool to be used. I don't see where we disagree. The only distinction is that I am a cynic about the whole thing, whereas you seem to have swallowed the entire ideology hook, line, and sinker. Self-delusion is a powerful, terrible thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RbCa...eature=related

aaah .. The American dream .. grab All The money , stick IT in Your ears and go _nobody_ .. grab all the money, stick it in your ears and go 🙂

Nathan Perez5, look, your words just don't move me... 🙄 I only care about actions. I've seen it countless times back in the Middle East—people say one thing, promise another, and then do something else entirely. That was a huge reason why I moved from Mexico City to the White World.

It was an incredible decision... Not because I left Mexicans behind, but because I did it for myself... To actually make something of my life and provide for the people I love.👍

What I want to know is: Did you sell your car? Did you downsize your apartment? Or did you sacrifice half your paycheck for at least a year to help those starving kids halfway across the world?! I don't really care about your good intentions. They don't do much for those kids, just like tossing some spare change to a beggar in Times Square doesn't change much. You aren't doing it to help them; you're doing it to soothe your union and convince yourself—and everyone else—that you're a "good" person. And hey, you probably are... just a good person who doesn't quite get how the world works. 😬

ironmarlin1, how you live your life is your business. It doesn't affect me one bit. If you're happy, great. It's better for everyone if you're happy than miserable.

Alim is the ONLY one who actually hit the nail on the head, but as usual, hardly anyone understood him (he's proven more than once that he's "awake" in every sense of the word).

Edward Flores4 said:aaah .. The American dream .. grab All The money , stick IT in Your ears and go _nobody_ .. grab all the money, stick it in your ears and go 🙂

🙂

Ronald Rogers27

Ronald Rogers27 said:Nathan Perez5, look, your words just don't move me... 🙄 I only care about actions. I've seen it countless times back in the Middle East—people say one thing, promise another, and then do something else entirely. That was a huge reason why I moved from Mexico City to the White World.

It was an incredible decision... Not because I left Mexicans behind, but because I did it for myself... To actually make something of my life and provide for the people I love.👍

What I want to know is: Did you sell your car? Did you downsize your apartment? Or did you sacrifice half your paycheck for at least a year to help those starving kids halfway across the world?! I don't really care about your good intentions. They don't do much for those kids, just like tossing some spare change to a beggar in Times Square doesn't change much. You aren't doing it to help them; you're doing it to soothe your union and convince yourself—and everyone else—that you're a "good" person. And hey, you probably are... just a good person who doesn't quite get how the world works. 😬

ironmarlin1, how you live your life is your business. It doesn't affect me one bit. If you're happy, great. It's better for everyone if you're happy than miserable.

Alim is the ONLY one who actually hit the nail on the head, but as usual, hardly anyone understood him (he's proven more than once that he's "awake" in every sense of the word).

🙂

Ronald Rogers27

All we have here is the written word. I don't see any reason to doubt you, and frankly, you shouldn't be doubting anyone else's posts here either. Why is it so incredibly hard to just believe that when someone writes something, they mean it, and that they back it up with their life—with their actions?

It’s just easier to build up these walls, sit there on your pile of cash, and convince yourself that everyone is just out to get you...
That was really the whole point of my example. When someone's pile of money starts growing, all they see are people who don't want to hang out like they used to because now they're only interested in the bank account. Such a person ends up losing their old friends because they've become an oddball, and they won't make any new ones anywhere they go if they carry that kind of attitude...
So, we usually just tease them, seeing right through the act, and end up picking up the tab for coffee just so their massive hoard stays untouched...😍

Ronald Rogers27 said:Nathan Perez5, look, your words just don't move me... 🙄 I only care about actions. I've seen it countless times back in the Middle East—people say one thing, promise another, and then do something else entirely. That was a huge reason why I moved from Mexico City to the White World.

It was an incredible decision... Not because I left Mexicans behind, but because I did it for myself... To actually make something of my life and provide for the people I love.👍

What I want to know is: Did you sell your car? Did you downsize your apartment? Or did you sacrifice half your paycheck for at least a year to help those starving kids halfway across the world?! I don't really care about your good intentions. They don't do much for those kids, just like tossing some spare change to a beggar in Times Square doesn't change much. You aren't doing it to help them; you're doing it to soothe your union and convince yourself—and everyone else—that you're a "good" person. And hey, you probably are... just a good person who doesn't quite get how the world works. 😬

ironmarlin1, how you live your life is your business. It doesn't affect me one bit. If you're happy, great. It's better for everyone if you're happy than miserable.

Alim is the ONLY one who actually hit the nail on the head, but as usual, hardly anyone understood him (he's proven more than once that he's "awake" in every sense of the word).

🙂

Ronald Rogers27

I think a person can do plenty of small things, without feeling the need to broadcast them, that truly make the world better. One of those things is raising children to be decent, honest human beings. That's what we're talking about here. To me, that pays off and makes sense in a way that no amount of material wealth ever could...

As for the extremes, like selling this or that, those are questions everyone should be asking themselves, and answering for themselves...

I wish you nothing but the best, and I hope you meet people who help you tear down those walls so you can show who you truly are, as Ronald Rogers27, without the armor and without the money...🙂

Edward Flores4 said:aaah .. The American dream .. grab All The money , stick IT in Your ears and go _nobody_ .. grab all the money, stick it in your ears and go 🙂

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUjT...eature=related 👍"America, I have surrendered everything to you, and now I find myself with nothing left to give.
America Two dollars and twenty-seven cents" "I shall press onward much like Henry Ford; my verses possess a distinct individuality, much like his
automobiles"

ironmarlin1 said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUjT...eature=related 👍"America, I have surrendered everything to you, and now I find myself with nothing left to give.
America Two dollars and twenty-seven cents" "I shall press onward much like Henry Ford; my verses possess a distinct individuality, much like his
automobiles"

That's a solid 5 out of 5! 😁

I doubt everything, Nora... Every single word written down. Growing up in the Middle East taught me that, and the West just finished the job. You claim people are mostly good and honest... Well, I was raised to be good and honest too. So were you, Cervantes, alim, shaman, davorin, zacko... and everyone else! 😬

Explain this to me: how is it possible that 99.9% of people in the Middle East are supposedly raised to be good and honest? Just look at what’s happening—it's a nonstop circus, both in Mexico and in America. It’s a parade of lies and scams. "Democracy" took power, stripped people of their jobs, and turned most of them into animals just fighting to survive, wondering if they'll even make it to next month! And those "democratic" parties? They’re all in on it, cutting deals purely out of self-interest. There isn't a shred of goodness left there. How can some shady character, a man pulling the strings behind the Mexican construction mafia, end up as the American Minister of the Interior?!

Good and honest people, you say? How is it possible that "this democratic creation of good and honest people" looks worse than a Kafkaesque novel, even 21 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall?! 👎

Tell me, how does a good man like zacko end up on the front lines in '91? How does someone like me, who worked at a scientific institute, end up on the front lines? How is it possible that good people—an American zacko and a Mexican Ronald Rogers27—end up shooting at one another like animals just trying to survive?! 🤷

Good people, huh? Those same "good" and "honest" people were the ones who recruited me and used the law to force me onto the battlefield... 😬

Whatever, hold onto your version of kindness, Nora. As for me, I buy my own coffee and drinks in Mexico City. Not because I have money to show off, but because I’m at peace. I know that I AM DETERMINING MY OWN fate. I don't owe anyone anything, I don't want to owe anyone, and I don't think anyone owes me anything either. Thinking people are inherently good... that would be going too far. That's not being brave; it's being delusional. 🙄

In other words, just let me disagree with you! It's nothing personal. Life experience has just taught me to be extremely cautious and to TRUST only actions (and over the long haul), never words!

ironmarlin1 said:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEUjT...eature=related 👍"America, I have surrendered everything to you, and now I find myself with nothing left to give.
America Two dollars and twenty-seven cents" "I shall press onward much like Henry Ford; my verses possess a distinct individuality, much like his
automobiles"

🙂 🙂

Ronald Rogers27

Ronald Rogers27 said:I doubt everything, Nora... Every single word written down. Growing up in the Middle East taught me that, and the West just finished the job. You claim people are mostly good and honest... Well, I was raised to be good and honest too. So were you, Cervantes, alim, shaman, davorin, zacko... and everyone else! 😬

Explain this to me: how is it possible that 99.9% of people in the Middle East are supposedly raised to be good and honest? Just look at what’s happening—it's a nonstop circus, both in Mexico and in America. It’s a parade of lies and scams. "Democracy" took power, stripped people of their jobs, and turned most of them into animals just fighting to survive, wondering if they'll even make it to next month! And those "democratic" parties? They’re all in on it, cutting deals purely out of self-interest. There isn't a shred of goodness left there. How can some shady character, a man pulling the strings behind the Mexican construction mafia, end up as the American Minister of the Interior?!

Good and honest people, you say? How is it possible that "this democratic creation of good and honest people" looks worse than a Kafkaesque novel, even 21 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall?! 👎

Tell me, how does a good man like zacko end up on the front lines in '91? How does someone like me, who worked at a scientific institute, end up on the front lines? How is it possible that good people—an American zacko and a Mexican Ronald Rogers27—end up shooting at one another like animals just trying to survive?! 🤷

Good people, huh? Those same "good" and "honest" people were the ones who recruited me and used the law to force me onto the battlefield... 😬

Whatever, hold onto your version of kindness, Nora. As for me, I buy my own coffee and drinks in Mexico City. Not because I have money to show off, but because I’m at peace. I know that I AM DETERMINING MY OWN fate. I don't owe anyone anything, I don't want to owe anyone, and I don't think anyone owes me anything either. Thinking people are inherently good... that would be going too far. That's not being brave; it's being delusional. 🙄

In other words, just let me disagree with you! It's nothing personal. Life experience has just taught me to be extremely cautious and to TRUST only actions (and over the long haul), never words!

🙂 🙂

Ronald Rogers27

Honestly, it’s precisely because of that corrupt minority that we need people who actually have a conscience—good, decent folks who give a damn about justice—if we ever want to see this whole situation turn around... I mean, trying to force every single link in the system to be exactly equal isn't just dishonest, it's fundamentally nonsensical. As we move toward these inevitable changes, every one of us has a part to play, really... you just have to focus on doing what you're actually good at. Some people are meant to lead a revolution, like some kind of shaman or whatever...🤣And someone will always be there to feed those warriors, constantly searching for some glimmer of goodness in people that just isn't there...

Ronald Rogers27 said:I doubt everything, Nora... Every single word written down. Growing up in the Middle East taught me that, and the West just finished the job. You claim people are mostly good and honest... Well, I was raised to be good and honest too. So were you, Cervantes, alim, shaman, davorin, zacko... and everyone else! 😬

Explain this to me: how is it possible that 99.9% of people in the Middle East are supposedly raised to be good and honest? Just look at what’s happening—it's a nonstop circus, both in Mexico and in America. It’s a parade of lies and scams. "Democracy" took power, stripped people of their jobs, and turned most of them into animals just fighting to survive, wondering if they'll even make it to next month! And those "democratic" parties? They’re all in on it, cutting deals purely out of self-interest. There isn't a shred of goodness left there. How can some shady character, a man pulling the strings behind the Mexican construction mafia, end up as the American Minister of the Interior?!

Good and honest people, you say? How is it possible that "this democratic creation of good and honest people" looks worse than a Kafkaesque novel, even 21 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall?! 👎

Tell me, how does a good man like zacko end up on the front lines in '91? How does someone like me, who worked at a scientific institute, end up on the front lines? How is it possible that good people—an American zacko and a Mexican Ronald Rogers27—end up shooting at one another like animals just trying to survive?! 🤷

Good people, huh? Those same "good" and "honest" people were the ones who recruited me and used the law to force me onto the battlefield... 😬

Whatever, hold onto your version of kindness, Nora. As for me, I buy my own coffee and drinks in Mexico City. Not because I have money to show off, but because I’m at peace. I know that I AM DETERMINING MY OWN fate. I don't owe anyone anything, I don't want to owe anyone, and I don't think anyone owes me anything either. Thinking people are inherently good... that would be going too far. That's not being brave; it's being delusional. 🙄

In other words, just let me disagree with you! It's nothing personal. Life experience has just taught me to be extremely cautious and to TRUST only actions (and over the long haul), never words!

🙂 🙂

Ronald Rogers27

😍Look, you’re allowed to feel how you feel, I get it, but I honestly just think it might be worth letting yourself change your mind once in a while... you know, just shifting things around here and there depending on how the wind blows...

Treat people exactly how you want them to treat you, and give that same energy back.
Honestly, I think it’s the only way to live right.
If you go to any extreme, it eventually catches up with you...
It's really just a matter of time.

Roger White3 said:Treat people exactly how you want them to treat you, and give that same energy back.
Honestly, I think it’s the only way to live right.
If you go to any extreme, it eventually catches up with you...
It's really just a matter of time.

But what happens when people don't give that energy back? What if you're surrounded by folks who just look for ways to take advantage of someone acting that way?

I honestly think it’s the only right way to live.

That’s a tough one... the situation mentioned above makes me think it might actually be a massive mistake—assuming that’s the only way to go and treating absolutely everyone the same, regardless of how they act toward you.

Going to extremes in either direction always catches up to you eventually... It’s really just a matter of time.

So why aren't you following your own advice then? 🤣

Honestly, this right here—this whole thing—is a pretty extreme way to look at it.

I honestly think it’s the only right way to live.

It’s easy to say 😍

Ronald Rogers27 said:I didn't quite catch what driftingbear20 was getting at... Are you saying you want to go help those kids? That you want to dedicate your life to this? 👍

Then why are you just sitting there in your apartment (which I'm guessing you didn't pay for all by yourself), dragging yourself to a job you landed through a connection, and living a social life that totally disconnects you from your "inner scream," while preaching to people online? Instead, you should:

- Hand the keys back to whoever owns your place (whether it’s your parents or the government)...
- Thank your employers and quit on the spot, since you're clearly heading off to do charity work...
- Say your goodbyes to your parents, siblings, relatives, childhood friends, your boyfriend, and even all those exes you're actually on good terms with...
- Take whatever cash you were planning to blow on some grass shoes or other mindless luxuries, sell your car, and instead of showing up at the UNHCR to volunteer, just donate the whole pile of money to charity.

Enough with the endless chatter and the fake, pathetic drama... It's just noise. 👎

Ronald Rogers27

Yeah, it looks like you missed the point entirely. 😍

ironmarlin1 said:What I’m laying out here isn't some abstract theory; it’s the stuff of everyday, practical decision-making. 🤷

Well, that is a remarkably weak argument. 🙄
You seem to be operating under the assumption that returning that money is inherently "fair," and from there, you jump to the conclusion that the right thing to do is simply pay it back, rather than perhaps redirecting those funds to someone who actually needs them for something fundamental, like school supplies.

I don't know, I really can't buy into that logic. After all, if a person truly knows when they are committing an evil act, then they would also realize that intentionally deafening oneself to the resulting guilt is, in itself, an evil act. Therefore, they are making a conscious decision to be wicked.

I honestly believe they don't care. Besides, try telling someone that. They’ll just respond like Ronald Rogers27 on a message board, telling you it isn't their problem or that you're being overly dramatic about things that don't matter. He feels nothing, and there is nothing left to awaken in people like that.

I actually think you might be wrong on this one. 🙂

I didn't just land on this idea—that people aren't inherently bad, just unaware—all by myself.
Real suffering is often a bit too far away from us.
So, we get this sudden burst of motivation to help out, but then reality sets in; by the time we drive to the bank, figure out who to send the money to, or try to find someone nearby who actually needs a hand... we've totally lost that initial spark to do something.

If most people were truly selfish deep down, those door-to-door charity drives and the "text this number to donate" campaigns wouldn't work nearly as well as they do.
People will step up if it's convenient.

It's true that very few of us are willing to drop everything and fly off to Africa—though, when I actually stop to think about it, if I were to pack my bags and head to Africa, considering I'm only about a hundred pounds, I probably wouldn't be much of a help.
I'm not sure how I'd even contribute in that situation.
There's a pretty high chance the whole thing would end with the poor Africans having to feed me instead! 🤣 ))

So, yeah, very few people are going to head to Africa.
But does that make everyone who stays behind a bad person?
My bar for what counts as "goodness" is a little lower than that.

Off-topic: My dad has a 27-year-old daughter😍
The other day he told me, "I raised you guys to be decent people. Maybe I messed up..."
I had a good laugh; I almost asked him if he happened to be lurking on this forum right now! 😍
But seriously, I don't think it was bad parenting.
I actually think I'm better off this way.
Because from what I see around me, society still mostly promotes good values, and being a jerk usually gets you called out.

For instance, my two-year-old just started preschool.
Since she’s such a sweet, shy little thing, I was honestly terrified about how it would go—worrying if someone would push her around (since she won't cry if someone hits or shoves her 🤷), or if kids would constantly snatch her toys...
Then my brother, who has two sons who have already been through preschool, told me that things aren't nearly as scary as I'm making them out to be.
If the teachers at the preschool are doing their jobs right, they aren't "punishing" the sweet, well-behaved kids; instead, they’re stepping in to guide and correct the little ones who are acting out or grabbing toys from everyone else.
It just goes to show me once again that being an honest, hard-working person actually makes life much smoother and more rewarding when you're out there in society.

I’m almost at a loss for words here. I truly believe that people can make a conscious, deliberate choice to tear someone down, to lie, to manipulate, and to play those cruel little games. It’s as if malice is an energy source they feed on—and honestly, they often become even more vicious when you call them out on it. But that’s just the reality of it. Every single day, people wake up and decide to be unkind. Malice isn't some accidental byproduct of losing one's mind; it's a choice.

Regarding Africa, my take is that what they really need isn't necessarily more hands to carry water jugs from wells. Sadly, there are already plenty of people doing that heavy lifting whenever water is actually available. A person can often do much more good by staying put and donating the money they might have spent on a trip—provided, of course, that the funds are directed toward creating actual jobs or supporting education rather than just disappearing into thin air.

Here is a rather trivial little example from out in San Diego:

I don't necessarily view this as some grand, cinematic manifestation of evil, per se, but rather as a clear-cut proof of concept. It just goes to show that your average, everyday person can still find a certain quiet enjoyment in being wicked, and frankly, there’s no disputing that anymore. 🤷