Socialism-democracy vs. communism-capitalism

Dennis Baker34 said:Look, we choose our own leaders! As for who's actually a thief, that's a job for the American courts and police.

Sure, ExxonMobil is pricey, but the average American family owns two cars now—and they aren't some old Yugo or a Chevrolet, they're mostly German or Japanese imports.
Hint: just take a look at any street!

Jobs exist—honestly, I don't know a single one of my colleagues (mechanical engineers) who isn't working; most are pulling in $50k a year or more, which was nothing but a pipe dream back in the America days.
Americans travel a lot—just look at the numbers regarding how many people are wintering away in Austria or Italy now compared to twenty years ago.

True, the reason we lived slightly better than those stuck in pure Communism was actually that tiny bit of allowed Capitalism—the fact that they didn't nationalize every single farm and private house, and having that freedom of labor like in Germany...

Melissa Peterson19 said:Give me a break. You’re looking at a population of 20 million with a $20 billion GDP versus an American population of 4.5 million with a $60 billion GDP. We are essentially 15 times more indebted now—do the math, buddy, that’s 1500%. Under the old system, it was $1,000 per capita; now, we’re sitting at $15,000 per capita. Get your head out of the sand.

So why all this intense opposition then? It’s a non-stop cycle of Cold War tensions against the socialist bloc—the blockade of Cuba, the Gulf of Pigs, Vietnam, Nicaragua... it never ends. The truth is, they are terrified. They keep their own people, the working class, kept in the dark to maintain control. You have experts trained like mindless drones who can successfully land a man on the Moon, yet they actually believe the propaganda that women were communal property in the USSR or that everyone lived on scraps from a single pot. This isn't about ideology; it's pure fear. It's the wealthy elite panicking at the thought of losing their fortunes through fair redistribution.

Lies and half-truths from A to Z. It's obvious you're just some expat obsessed with that "German logic" nonsense. We despised people like you during Communism, and honestly, we still do.

This current mafia-style state is also parasitic; the people can no longer afford to fund it, and it only exists by racking up massive debts at the expense of its own citizens. Collapse is inevitable and imminent!

Are you joking? The American court and police? Which thief have they actually caught, let alone convicted?
In America, we drove almost every car in the world except for American ones. We had Opels, BMWs, Volkswagens, Peugeots, Renault-Citroëns, Simcas, Auto Unions, Mercedes-Benzes, Mazdas, Toyotas, Datsuns, and Fiats. And yes, we had Ladas, Moskvitchs, Wartburgs, and of course, the 101s and Yugos. Ask anyone who actually lived through America!
There are 310,000 officially unemployed, not to mention the unofficial numbers. What are you talking about?
And millions of us vacationed on the Atlantic coast. You wouldn't have been able to set foot on those beaches back then.
Life was good thanks to honest work and self-management. The Party acted as the ultimate moral authority, ensuring things were done right—that the state wasn't being cheated and that wages were paid on time. Today, the Party has been replaced by the mob; tycoons cheat the state and the workers. People work without getting paid—I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it; it's insane, completely irrational. If you had predicted this during America, they would have locked you in a mental asylum, and if you spoke about 1991, they would have shot you. Who would fight for that? But we did, and clearly, you prefer that kind of regime!

MC Ozzy;25343568 said:Haha, look at the math. You had 20 million people living on 20 billion dollars back then, but now we’ve got 4.5 million Americans sitting on 60 billion. We’re basically 15 times more leveraged now—do you realize how insane that is? That's 1500%! Back in the day, it was 1000 dollars per person, now it's 15,000 dollars per capita!!! Get real!

There's just no comparison. If you want to talk scale, just look at the debt loads in places like Germany, the US, or even Greece during that era versus where they stand today... it's a completely different universe.
Capitalism definitely needs a "reboot," because let's be honest, this current model feels totally spent. But as much as I hate to admit it, there isn't a viable alternative on the table right now...
And the whole thing is built entirely on consumption... more, more, and more. In its simplest form, that's what drives economic growth. And if you want to buy more and more and more... well, that's exactly why you end up drowning in debt.

Melissa Peterson19 said:Give me a break. You’re looking at a population of 20 million with a $20 billion GDP versus an American population of 4.5 million with a $60 billion GDP. We are essentially 15 times more indebted now—do the math, buddy, that’s 1500%. Under the old system, it was $1,000 per capita; now, we’re sitting at $15,000 per capita. Get your head out of the sand.

So why all this intense opposition then? It’s a non-stop cycle of Cold War tensions against the socialist bloc—the blockade of Cuba, the Gulf of Pigs, Vietnam, Nicaragua... it never ends. The truth is, they are terrified. They keep their own people, the working class, kept in the dark to maintain control. You have experts trained like mindless drones who can successfully land a man on the Moon, yet they actually believe the propaganda that women were communal property in the USSR or that everyone lived on scraps from a single pot. This isn't about ideology; it's pure fear. It's the wealthy elite panicking at the thought of losing their fortunes through fair redistribution.

Lies and half-truths from A to Z. It's obvious you're just some expat obsessed with that "German logic" nonsense. We despised people like you during Communism, and honestly, we still do.

This current mafia-style state is also parasitic; the people can no longer afford to fund it, and it only exists by racking up massive debts at the expense of its own citizens. Collapse is inevitable and imminent!

Are you joking? The American court and police? Which thief have they actually caught, let alone convicted?
In America, we drove almost every car in the world except for American ones. We had Opels, BMWs, Volkswagens, Peugeots, Renault-Citroëns, Simcas, Auto Unions, Mercedes-Benzes, Mazdas, Toyotas, Datsuns, and Fiats. And yes, we had Ladas, Moskvitchs, Wartburgs, and of course, the 101s and Yugos. Ask anyone who actually lived through America!
There are 310,000 officially unemployed, not to mention the unofficial numbers. What are you talking about?
And millions of us vacationed on the Atlantic coast. You wouldn't have been able to set foot on those beaches back then.
Life was good thanks to honest work and self-management. The Party acted as the ultimate moral authority, ensuring things were done right—that the state wasn't being cheated and that wages were paid on time. Today, the Party has been replaced by the mob; tycoons cheat the state and the workers. People work without getting paid—I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it; it's insane, completely irrational. If you had predicted this during America, they would have locked you in a mental asylum, and if you spoke about 1991, they would have shot you. Who would fight for that? But we did, and clearly, you prefer that kind of regime!

Melissa Peterson19 said:Give me a break. You’re looking at a population of 20 million with a $20 billion GDP versus an American population of 4.5 million with a $60 billion GDP. We are essentially 15 times more indebted now—do the math, buddy, that’s 1500%. Under the old system, it was $1,000 per capita; now, we’re sitting at $15,000 per capita. Get your head out of the sand.

So why all this intense opposition then? It’s a non-stop cycle of Cold War tensions against the socialist bloc—the blockade of Cuba, the Gulf of Pigs, Vietnam, Nicaragua... it never ends. The truth is, they are terrified. They keep their own people, the working class, kept in the dark to maintain control. You have experts trained like mindless drones who can successfully land a man on the Moon, yet they actually believe the propaganda that women were communal property in the USSR or that everyone lived on scraps from a single pot. This isn't about ideology; it's pure fear. It's the wealthy elite panicking at the thought of losing their fortunes through fair redistribution.

Lies and half-truths from A to Z. It's obvious you're just some expat obsessed with that "German logic" nonsense. We despised people like you during Communism, and honestly, we still do.

This current mafia-style state is also parasitic; the people can no longer afford to fund it, and it only exists by racking up massive debts at the expense of its own citizens. Collapse is inevitable and imminent!

Are you joking? The American court and police? Which thief have they actually caught, let alone convicted?
In America, we drove almost every car in the world except for American ones. We had Opels, BMWs, Volkswagens, Peugeots, Renault-Citroëns, Simcas, Auto Unions, Mercedes-Benzes, Mazdas, Toyotas, Datsuns, and Fiats. And yes, we had Ladas, Moskvitchs, Wartburgs, and of course, the 101s and Yugos. Ask anyone who actually lived through America!
There are 310,000 officially unemployed, not to mention the unofficial numbers. What are you talking about?
And millions of us vacationed on the Atlantic coast. You wouldn't have been able to set foot on those beaches back then.
Life was good thanks to honest work and self-management. The Party acted as the ultimate moral authority, ensuring things were done right—that the state wasn't being cheated and that wages were paid on time. Today, the Party has been replaced by the mob; tycoons cheat the state and the workers. People work without getting paid—I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it; it's insane, completely irrational. If you had predicted this during America, they would have locked you in a mental asylum, and if you spoke about 1991, they would have shot you. Who would fight for that? But we did, and clearly, you prefer that kind of regime!

Melissa Peterson19 said:Give me a break. You’re looking at a population of 20 million with a $20 billion GDP versus an American population of 4.5 million with a $60 billion GDP. We are essentially 15 times more indebted now—do the math, buddy, that’s 1500%. Under the old system, it was $1,000 per capita; now, we’re sitting at $15,000 per capita. Get your head out of the sand.

So why all this intense opposition then? It’s a non-stop cycle of Cold War tensions against the socialist bloc—the blockade of Cuba, the Gulf of Pigs, Vietnam, Nicaragua... it never ends. The truth is, they are terrified. They keep their own people, the working class, kept in the dark to maintain control. You have experts trained like mindless drones who can successfully land a man on the Moon, yet they actually believe the propaganda that women were communal property in the USSR or that everyone lived on scraps from a single pot. This isn't about ideology; it's pure fear. It's the wealthy elite panicking at the thought of losing their fortunes through fair redistribution.

Lies and half-truths from A to Z. It's obvious you're just some expat obsessed with that "German logic" nonsense. We despised people like you during Communism, and honestly, we still do.

This current mafia-style state is also parasitic; the people can no longer afford to fund it, and it only exists by racking up massive debts at the expense of its own citizens. Collapse is inevitable and imminent!

Are you joking? The American court and police? Which thief have they actually caught, let alone convicted?
In America, we drove almost every car in the world except for American ones. We had Opels, BMWs, Volkswagens, Peugeots, Renault-Citroëns, Simcas, Auto Unions, Mercedes-Benzes, Mazdas, Toyotas, Datsuns, and Fiats. And yes, we had Ladas, Moskvitchs, Wartburgs, and of course, the 101s and Yugos. Ask anyone who actually lived through America!
There are 310,000 officially unemployed, not to mention the unofficial numbers. What are you talking about?
And millions of us vacationed on the Atlantic coast. You wouldn't have been able to set foot on those beaches back then.
Life was good thanks to honest work and self-management. The Party acted as the ultimate moral authority, ensuring things were done right—that the state wasn't being cheated and that wages were paid on time. Today, the Party has been replaced by the mob; tycoons cheat the state and the workers. People work without getting paid—I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it; it's insane, completely irrational. If you had predicted this during America, they would have locked you in a mental asylum, and if you spoke about 1991, they would have shot you. Who would fight for that? But we did, and clearly, you prefer that kind of regime!

hiddensurfer17 said:Why are we even bothering to debate something that’s already proven to be inefficient and fundamentally broken?

shadowpanther3 said:Who's to say it's a failure—if things keep going the way they are with us getting robbed blind, socialism might actually make a comeback.

Robin Reyes23 said:Capitalism isn't really a form of governance, per se; it’s an economic framework that functions within the structure of a democracy.
Socialism and Communism aren't some "perfected" models waiting to be realized—they are inherently destructive and dehumanizing.
Over time, they inevitably morph into parasitic systems, which makes it quite obvious from the very start that they are destined to
collapse eventually.

goldengull3 said:An old veteran once told me that back in 1944, when he saw them brewing up a special batch of rations exclusively for the officers, he knew right then that this whole idea of an egalitarian society was dead on arrival... 🙂

I mean, what middle class are we even talking about? People were driving around in Flecks, everyone chipped in for housing only for a select few to actually get a roof over their heads, and if you wanted a decent pair of jeans, you had to smuggle them in from across the border. Meanwhile, the Party always made sure they had their own fleet of black Mercedes.

velvetdrifter86 said:It reminds me of how Milton Friedman talked about the free market being this global paradise of equality.
But what does "middle class" even look like today? Just a handful of IT guys and engineers at private firms who genuinely think they can pull the whole country out of the gutter.

goldengull3 said:To me, the middle class consists of anyone who actually owns their home, regardless of what their paycheck looks like. People work across a massive spectrum of trades. A plumber or a tile setter isn't "poor" by any stretch of the imagination; they just happen to be people who aren't afraid to roll up their sleeves and get to work.

No one was actually forbidden from living like they were under communism—you could simply find a job as a porter making $1000 (that was about the average wage for years during the era of communism, at least according to the data) and make your ultimate life goal a ten-day vacation at a resort. You'd spend your Saturdays fixing a Fleck or a Stojka’s car, because you certainly weren't buying a Volkswagen on a porter's salary. Generally speaking, we were poor. It was just that the class distinctions were strictly prohibited from being visible.

Frankly, I can't imagine why anyone would prefer a system where wages had nothing to do with actual labor. Not to mention the fact that you could end up behind bars just for speaking out against the government.

velvetdrifter86 said:You forgot to mention that the cost of living was way lower back then, so $1000 wasn't really an issue.
And honestly, having 10 days off a year feels like a total luxury now for everyone getting laid off because manufacturing isn't even a priority in America anymore. Class differences have always been there; nobody’s denying that. There were directors back then just like there are today. There were people with perks then and people with perks now, whether it was through their jobs or their pensions.
There’s a huge difference between America right after the war and how things are today. Besides the massive debt and the monopolies held by retail chains, the hopelessness we see now is fueled by third-rate Treasury Secretaries and their advisors. They don't have a real strategy for economic recovery; their idea of "success" is just taking out more loans to pay off the old ones.
What communism actually left us with was less debt (regardless of what you say about lack of competition or closed markets in America), whereas today's debt (which is only going to balloon thanks to the government's amateur moves) is eventually going to be collected somehow—whether through taxes or losing land and assets.

wearyhawk273 said:That famous debt you’re talking about... if we want to get the full picture, we really ought to compare those old "debts" our neighbors were carrying back then—and even further afield—to what we're dealing with in the US today...

wearyhawk273 said:Most of this hopelessness is being manufactured by the media, especially those so-called leftist outlets...

Strategy and recovery? Please...

The whole of "Western civilization" needs to fundamentally overhaul its entire way of thinking and doing business... There is no going back to the old ways; at best, we might see occasional or passing flashes of it. The world has moved on. Take Germany, for instance—they aren't going to bounce back easily because other nations have already "recovered." It's pretty simple. China exports more now, and whatever they produce, some German won't be able to compete with... and that's why you're seeing this recession...
I'm oversimplifying, sure, but I'm not wrong...
Even the EU suggests that we need to lower labor costs—taxes, wages, all of it—just so the "West" can stay competitive... On top of that, if you ask me, we desperately need to invest in education and pivot toward high tech... We simply won't be able to compete with the cheap labor coming out of India, China, or even Brazil... which is exactly what we're seeing play out right now...
btw, what exactly is the strategy for the American opposition???? Just getting into power? 😕🤷

wearyhawk273 said:Most of this hopelessness is being manufactured by the media, especially those so-called leftist outlets...

Strategy and recovery? Please...

The whole of "Western civilization" needs to fundamentally overhaul its entire way of thinking and doing business... There is no going back to the old ways; at best, we might see occasional or passing flashes of it. The world has moved on. Take Germany, for instance—they aren't going to bounce back easily because other nations have already "recovered." It's pretty simple. China exports more now, and whatever they produce, some German won't be able to compete with... and that's why you're seeing this recession...
I'm oversimplifying, sure, but I'm not wrong...
Even the EU suggests that we need to lower labor costs—taxes, wages, all of it—just so the "West" can stay competitive... On top of that, if you ask me, we desperately need to invest in education and pivot toward high tech... We simply won't be able to compete with the cheap labor coming out of India, China, or even Brazil... which is exactly what we're seeing play out right now...
btw, what exactly is the strategy for the American opposition???? Just getting into power? 😕🤷

velvetdrifter86 said:It's true that Greece's debt is five times bigger than ours, but honestly, I feel like we're on track to catch up to places like Greece and Spain in a few years.
I guess the media is just out to get us (probably those leftists🙄).

velvetdrifter86 said:I don't see the logic in slashing wages while the cost of living stays the same or keeps climbing. Honestly, the only way that makes sense is if you're trying to slide back into some kind of feudal, slave-labor society. I don't see any benefit for the country there, just huge wins for big corporations. The government should be focused on building a working class with actual buying power, not just churning out cheap labor.
Because those workers won't be able to afford an education, which basically kills any chance they have of moving up the social ladder.

Look, I'm not out here campaigning for any specific party; I'm just talking common sense.

velvetdrifter86 said:I don't see the logic in slashing wages while the cost of living stays the same or keeps climbing. Honestly, the only way that makes sense is if you're trying to slide back into some kind of feudal, slave-labor society. I don't see any benefit for the country there, just huge wins for big corporations. The government should be focused on building a working class with actual buying power, not just churning out cheap labor.
Because those workers won't be able to afford an education, which basically kills any chance they have of moving up the social ladder.

Look, I'm not out here campaigning for any specific party; I'm just talking common sense.