Socialism-democracy vs. communism-capitalism

I haven't heard that term used in a while! Reminds me of some old-school slang I picked up back in college. Definitely a throwback. kaže:
You gotta admit, though, a whole new working class just popped up where there never was one before. It's wild seeing it happen.

What do you mean there's no working class left? We’re basically watching the final death throes of American manufacturing right now. Look at places like Ford or the old steel mills in Pittsburgh—they used to be the backbone of everything. Instead of actually fixing things, they just let them wither away. Between environmental lobbies and politicians obsessed with tourism, nobody even talks about restructuring anymore; they just pull the plug.

I honestly don't know what to tell you about that one. It’s just one of those things! velvetdrifter86 says:
I mean, not "Western" in that capitalist sense... look at India, China, Russia... even Brazil. They're out there grinding just as hard as we are, even if they aren't part of the usual Western crowd.
Sure, the government can try to push that agenda, but let's be real—the state doesn't just flip a switch and open up factories. It’s the entrepreneurs who make things happen. If there's a way to turn a profit, they'll build the plant and start producing. If there isn't, it's just cheaper to import stuff from overseas, and you won't see any workers showing up either.

It’s obvious they’re working for peanuts. It’s a global issue, really. People just don't get that in a company selling a "competitive" product, where every manager or dev is pulling in over $150k, the math just doesn't add up for everyone else. $0.00 So you've got this one guy from China working a side hustle all day for pennies, probably using materials he got through some shady, subsidized deal. If we actually bumped up wages here in the States—you know, like if we brought manufacturing back home—everyone would have to level the playing field just to stay competitive. But that’s exactly what the engineers, CEOs, and tech bros want to avoid. They're terrified that fair wages will drag us right back toward communism or radical socialism. And let’s be real, corporations are absolutely petrified of anything sounding even remotely like socialism.
Modern society seems totally fine with this new kind of feudalism being shoved down our throats as the only way forward. You've got these guys in sharp suits and expensive briefcases acting like they’re the kings of industry—and honestly, some of them really are crushing it—but then you have everyone else just grinding away like modern-day slaves. It's wild.
If China actually steps up its public spending—which honestly seems pretty likely—way more people are going to get access to an education. Once you've got an educated workforce, nobody wants to spend their life grinding away like a slave for some massive foreign corporation. At that point, manufacturing is just gonna have to pack up and move to other struggling nations, probably shifting from Asia over to Africa.
We’re really going to feel the squeeze once that massive workforce from China shifts over to Southeast Europe—it's already happening in places like Poland, Bulgaria, and Romania, and honestly, it's headed straight for us in America too.
Look, I don't want to be totally negative, and that scenario isn't all bad since it actually gives us a shot at paying off the national debt. But honestly? I’m kind of just sitting here looking forward to a nuclear war wiping out the whole planet.😁

velvetdrifter86 said:

I haven't heard that term used in a while! Reminds me of some old-school slang I picked up back in college. Definitely a throwback. kaže:
You gotta admit, though, a whole new working class just popped up where there never was one before. It's wild seeing it happen.

What do you mean there's no working class left? We’re basically watching the final death throes of American manufacturing right now. Look at places like Ford or the old steel mills in Pittsburgh—they used to be the backbone of everything. Instead of actually fixing things, they just let them wither away. Between environmental lobbies and politicians obsessed with tourism, nobody even talks about restructuring anymore; they just pull the plug.

I honestly don't know what to tell you about that one. It’s just one of those things! velvetdrifter86 says:
I mean, not "Western" in that capitalist sense... look at India, China, Russia... even Brazil. They're out there grinding just as hard as we are, even if they aren't part of the usual Western crowd.
Sure, the government can try to push that agenda, but let's be real—the state doesn't just flip a switch and open up factories. It’s the entrepreneurs who make things happen. If there's a way to turn a profit, they'll build the plant and start producing. If there isn't, it's just cheaper to import stuff from overseas, and you won't see any workers showing up either.

It’s obvious they’re working for peanuts. It’s a global issue, really. People just don't get that in a company selling a "competitive" product, where every manager or dev is pulling in over $150k, the math just doesn't add up for everyone else. $0.00 So you've got this one guy from China working a side hustle all day for pennies, probably using materials he got through some shady, subsidized deal. If we actually bumped up wages here in the States—you know, like if we brought manufacturing back home—everyone would have to level the playing field just to stay competitive. But that’s exactly what the engineers, CEOs, and tech bros want to avoid. They're terrified that fair wages will drag us right back toward communism or radical socialism. And let’s be real, corporations are absolutely petrified of anything sounding even remotely like socialism.
Modern society seems totally fine with this new kind of feudalism being shoved down our throats as the only way forward. You've got these guys in sharp suits and expensive briefcases acting like they’re the kings of industry—and honestly, some of them really are crushing it—but then you have everyone else just grinding away like modern-day slaves. It's wild.
If China actually steps up its public spending—which honestly seems pretty likely—way more people are going to get access to an education. Once you've got an educated workforce, nobody wants to spend their life grinding away like a slave for some massive foreign corporation. At that point, manufacturing is just gonna have to pack up and move to other struggling nations, probably shifting from Asia over to Africa.
We’re really going to feel the squeeze once that massive workforce from China shifts over to Southeast Europe—it's already happening in places like Poland, Bulgaria, and Romania, and honestly, it's headed straight for us in America too.
Look, I don't want to be totally negative, and that scenario isn't all bad since it actually gives us a shot at paying off the national debt. But honestly? I’m kind of just sitting here looking forward to a nuclear war wiping out the whole planet.😁

Hahahaha👍 that actually gave me a laugh! Seriously, props to you!!... Honestly, I've been thinking along those same lines lately... What do we even imagine when we think about space? Earth? We're just parasites... the planet could easily exist just fine without humans...

On a more serious note, though, I get where you're coming from... These problems are infinitely more complex, and on a global scale, there's always going to be some kind of brutal adaptation happening...
Even the Chinese won't work for peanuts forever, and the wealthy ones will always want to spend... so that creates an opening for American manufacturers to provide whatever the Asians are looking for...

As for mentioning feudalism, aside from the sarcasm, I didn't quite follow that part. Doesn't matter, though. YOU'VE GOT SPIRIT👍

And YES, WHEN I WAS TYPING EARLIER ABOUT THE WORKING CLASS THEN VERSUS NOW, I PUT QUOTATION MARKS AROUND IT. Of course there was a working class back then, even within those industrial giants, but not in this specific, capitalist, market-driven sense. Back then, jobs were secure, pay was steady, and everyone was treated equally regardless of whether they were brilliant, beautiful, dim-witted, or highly educated...

wearyhawk273 said:Hahahaha👍 that actually gave me a laugh! Seriously, props to you!!... Honestly, I've been thinking along those same lines lately... What do we even imagine when we think about space? Earth? We're just parasites... the planet could easily exist just fine without humans...

On a more serious note, though, I get where you're coming from... These problems are infinitely more complex, and on a global scale, there's always going to be some kind of brutal adaptation happening...
Even the Chinese won't work for peanuts forever, and the wealthy ones will always want to spend... so that creates an opening for American manufacturers to provide whatever the Asians are looking for...

As for mentioning feudalism, aside from the sarcasm, I didn't quite follow that part. Doesn't matter, though. YOU'VE GOT SPIRIT👍

And YES, WHEN I WAS TYPING EARLIER ABOUT THE WORKING CLASS THEN VERSUS NOW, I PUT QUOTATION MARKS AROUND IT. Of course there was a working class back then, even within those industrial giants, but not in this specific, capitalist, market-driven sense. Back then, jobs were secure, pay was steady, and everyone was treated equally regardless of whether they were brilliant, beautiful, dim-witted, or highly educated...

The Mayor of Trieste, Goran Milić, recently dropped a statement that was nothing short of brilliant. It went something like this: The Chinese? They aren't a threat to us. Once they actually build up some real wealth, they'll be flocking to Italy just to shop for designer shoes.

That is simply the nature of global capitalism. Even if Italy were facing a thousand different crises, they would find a way to navigate them successfully; they have already realized that their best moves happen on the world stage.

Decent fashion footwear.
Small, punchy little cars.

You’ll end up waiting six months just to get your hands on that pearl white Ford Model T, only to pay full price for the privilege. $40You don't want it? Fine. Drive a Chevrolet or a Nissan instead; there will always be another buyer waiting for that Ford. And trust me, they always show up.

goldengull3 said:The Mayor of Trieste, Goran Milić, recently dropped a statement that was nothing short of brilliant. It went something like this: The Chinese? They aren't a threat to us. Once they actually build up some real wealth, they'll be flocking to Italy just to shop for designer shoes.

That is simply the nature of global capitalism. Even if Italy were facing a thousand different crises, they would find a way to navigate them successfully; they have already realized that their best moves happen on the world stage.

Decent fashion footwear.
Small, punchy little cars.

You’ll end up waiting six months just to get your hands on that pearl white Ford Model T, only to pay full price for the privilege. $40You don't want it? Fine. Drive a Chevrolet or a Nissan instead; there will always be another buyer waiting for that Ford. And trust me, they always show up.

Nobody alive can truly predict what kind of fallout globalization is going to leave behind in 5, 15, or 50 years. There's no doubt there's already a massive number of Chinese people out there who are wealthier than even the most comfortable Italian middle class. Are they coming over specifically for the shoes? Maybe. Probably. But maybe not on a massive scale... yet.
But it's coming. Once that Asian so-called "middle class" really finds its footing... they're going to be buying brands en masse... cars, shoes, tech... everything. I just hope our Western capitalist mindset actually understands that before it's too late.
Because... even in China, they're already starting to produce quite a lot of high-tech stuff...

One way or another, whether we like it or not, globalization is always at work. It's just picking up speed now.
God knows what kind of chaos we'll be dealing with down the road...

wearyhawk273 said:Nobody alive can truly predict what kind of fallout globalization is going to leave behind in 5, 15, or 50 years. There's no doubt there's already a massive number of Chinese people out there who are wealthier than even the most comfortable Italian middle class. Are they coming over specifically for the shoes? Maybe. Probably. But maybe not on a massive scale... yet.
But it's coming. Once that Asian so-called "middle class" really finds its footing... they're going to be buying brands en masse... cars, shoes, tech... everything. I just hope our Western capitalist mindset actually understands that before it's too late.
Because... even in China, they're already starting to produce quite a lot of high-tech stuff...

One way or another, whether we like it or not, globalization is always at work. It's just picking up speed now.
God knows what kind of chaos we'll be dealing with down the road...

They have grasped it. 🙂 I can't speak for Americans, but the Italians will manage; if anything, they'll come out stronger. Italians have no interest in impoverished markets where people don't have the cash to spend on style. Take this, for instance—a classic example of their approach:

A small car, further refined by a high-end design house, priced nearly double what a standard model would cost... and yet, they always find someone willing to pay.

The fundamental issue here in America—we haven't even bothered to decide what our actual strengths are.

goldengull3 said:They have grasped it. 🙂 I can't speak for Americans, but the Italians will manage; if anything, they'll come out stronger. Italians have no interest in impoverished markets where people don't have the cash to spend on style. Take this, for instance—a classic example of their approach:

A small car, further refined by a high-end design house, priced nearly double what a standard model would cost... and yet, they always find someone willing to pay.

The fundamental issue here in America—we haven't even bothered to decide what our actual strengths are.

I mean, the Americans will figure it out eventually... they're adaptable... it's practically baked into their DNA. And if you're using the Italians as your benchmark, well, they might be the perfect example... those guys are pure salesmen; they'll sell you the design, the dream, and everything else under the sun 🙂
All jokes aside, I completely agree with your point.

Because if we don't even know what we're good at by now, then...🤷

Eventually, Americans will see it...

They’ll realize it eventually; some people grasp the reality of things early enough to climb to the top of the food chain, while others remain oblivious until they find themselves at the very bottom.
But where does that leave us in this grand design?

And what exactly do we have left to "sell" to the next wave of millionaires emerging from China?

Maybe just our islands.

slygardener4 said:A version of capitalism dominated by mega-corporations is, in many respects,
strikingly similar to feudalism.

Spot on. You're absolutely right. In this version of capitalism, a tiny handful of people basically run the whole world. It’s built on squeezing the working class, and honestly, the system doesn't even want you to be highly educated—because the less people know, the easier they are to exploit.