Grading Freshmen

Tyler Reyes86 said:The entire time, I have been talking about nurturing talent, and allowing someone to scrape by with the bare minimum of effort certainly doesn't fall under the umbrella of "nurturing." In fact, it’s quite the opposite; it’s encouraging laziness and the stagnation of talent.
As for methodology, you seem to think we should apply the exact same approach at every single level of schooling, suggesting that any shift in teaching style is bad simply because it might shock the students. Fine, then let's just introduce college-level lectures, seminars, midterms, and finals starting in the first grade, just so kids aren't caught off guard when they finally reach university.
After all, an eight-year-old is made of the same stuff as a seventeen or twenty-five-year-old, and the pedagogical approach can be identical. Just as andragogy can be.
And what happened to hard work? It seems hardly any successful adult in our society has actually achieved anything through sheer grit; most people just figured out how to navigate the system.
Why don't we just grade kids on their ability to "wing it"? I propose we start by making lying and theft mandatory subjects in the curriculum. After all, if that's how the adult world works, shouldn't we prepare the children for it?

Look, let me break it down for you:
- Lectures exist at every level of education. Whether it's elementary school, high school, or university—professors deliver material (obviously tailored to the age of the listeners/students).
- Independent presentations—whether they take the form of posters, oral reports, or PowerPoint decks—are something kids start doing in elementary school. In terms of their core concept (creating an independent project), it's functionally the same as a college seminar paper (again, adjusted for age).
- Midterms are basically just the same as unit tests given after finishing a major section of the curriculum.
- A written college exam is really just the same as the semester or end-of-year tests kids already take back in elementary school.
- An oral exam in college is the equivalent of an oral quiz in school.
I’ll say it again: it all comes down to age and the volume of material.
Which part of that are you not grasping?

Tyler Reyes86 said:Sure, they can. But they don't have to. They could just as easily spend all that free time scrolling through adult sites or staring blankly at the CNN screen.

Elementary school activities are "really similar" to college coursework? Honestly, that is just delusional.

Yeah, some kids use their free time to develop their skills.
Some play video games, watch mindless shows, or surf porn.
Some do both.
What does any of that have to do with what we're actually discussing here?

I already explained the similarities in my work above.
And comments like "that's just insane" don't belong in any discussion, whether it's in real life or on a forum.

northerncobra27, look, I am not exactly thrilled with my teenage daughter's grades right now, but let's get one thing straight: it’s pure laziness, not because I care what the neighbors think, but I'm gonna handle it. As for my first grader? It feels way too early to be forcing them into extreme studying sessions, so honestly, I'm fine with where those grades are at. Just don't you dare come at me with that "you need to force your kid to study and do homework" nonsense, because trust me, I already am! And no, I totally disagree with the idea that kids should just hate school. This isn't just about one kid; it's about the whole damn class, and then some.

And look, what she’s saying isn't some pipe dream either. We've all seen it—professors out there who basically hand out A's to the kids who just grinded through the textbook and memorized every single word without actually getting it, while they totally screw over the brilliant slackers who actually understand the material.

And I seriously hope, Oracle, that your TA doesn't give you an A in communications.

David Palmer5 said:Look, let me break it down for you:
- Lectures exist at every level of education. Whether it's elementary school, high school, or university—professors deliver material (obviously tailored to the age of the listeners/students).
- Independent presentations—whether they take the form of posters, oral reports, or PowerPoint decks—are something kids start doing in elementary school. In terms of their core concept (creating an independent project), it's functionally the same as a college seminar paper (again, adjusted for age).
- Midterms are basically just the same as unit tests given after finishing a major section of the curriculum.
- A written college exam is really just the same as the semester or end-of-year tests kids already take back in elementary school.
- An oral exam in college is the equivalent of an oral quiz in school.
I’ll say it again: it all comes down to age and the volume of material.
Which part of that are you not grasping?

Yeah, some kids use their free time to develop their skills.
Some play video games, watch mindless shows, or surf porn.
Some do both.
What does any of that have to do with what we're actually discussing here?

I already explained the similarities in my work above.
And comments like "that's just insane" don't belong in any discussion, whether it's in real life or on a forum.

Oh, so little Ivica from IIIc is actually a college student now. My goodness, look at that! Who would have thought?

College exams are taken during specific exam periods, whereas in K-12, testing happens constantly because you have to continuously monitor the work of the students. In college, that isn't required. No one cares if a student studies regularly or if they were blessed by some fairy in their crib so they can cram the entire syllabus into two days and two nights. In many college courses, there aren't even midterms scheduled, or they are held right before the final exam period. Please, try to understand that the approach to young children has to be qualitatively different. Pedagogy is one discipline, while andragogy is quite another. That is why they are distinct sciences; otherwise, they would be one and the same. Children need to be raised and guided, whereas adults, if they choose, simply need to be taught, because their characters are already formed.

David Palmer5 said:Look, let me break it down for you:
- Lectures exist at every level of education. Whether it's elementary school, high school, or university—professors deliver material (obviously tailored to the age of the listeners/students).
- Independent presentations—whether they take the form of posters, oral reports, or PowerPoint decks—are something kids start doing in elementary school. In terms of their core concept (creating an independent project), it's functionally the same as a college seminar paper (again, adjusted for age).
- Midterms are basically just the same as unit tests given after finishing a major section of the curriculum.
- A written college exam is really just the same as the semester or end-of-year tests kids already take back in elementary school.
- An oral exam in college is the equivalent of an oral quiz in school.
I’ll say it again: it all comes down to age and the volume of material.
Which part of that are you not grasping?

Yeah, some kids use their free time to develop their skills.
Some play video games, watch mindless shows, or surf porn.
Some do both.
What does any of that have to do with what we're actually discussing here?

I already explained the similarities in my work above.
And comments like "that's just insane" don't belong in any discussion, whether it's in real life or on a forum.

How do you think it has nothing to do with this? In your opinion, is that bolded part okay? Do you realize what kind of developmental problem it creates when children consume garbage in their spare time? That kind of content has a massive impact on their behavior and their values. Generally speaking, school isn't just an educational institution; it's supposed to be a formative one. Or rather, it *should* be.

But I will agree with you on one point. If a school doesn't want to be a formative institution—if the primary focus is solely on a student's innate abilities and their test scores, measured by universal criteria that are identical for everyone—then the school should be designed using a university model. In that case, tracking a student's regular daily work becomes completely pointless; instead, they should just implement exam periods, with all the same options for retakes that college students have.
Because the worst kind of school is one that merely pretends to care about character building, while the teachers couldn't care less about the moral messages they are sending students through their comments, grades, and assessments. If that's the case, it would be more honest not to call them a school at all, but rather a miniature university for children.

Kate Cox2 said:When my brothers and I were going through school, my mom made it an absolute requirement to work on our lessons with us. Honestly—I can't recall the exact reason why... we aren't stupid, so it certainly wasn't due to a lack of intelligence 😁, but whether it was because the workload was heavy or if she was just trying to combat our laziness, I'll have to ask her...
I don't have any kids currently in school myself, but I see that first graders spend the entire first semester just learning print letters and numbers up to 5, and then in the second semester, they move on to lowercase letters and numbers up to ten...

To me, that doesn't even seem particularly difficult, and I honestly don't understand how anyone could call that a "slower" pace...🤷

Clearly you don't have kids in school. First semester is uppercase/lowercase print and addition/subtraction up to 10. Second semester is addition/subtraction up to 20 plus cursive... and I disagree that the pace is slow. My kid has a textbook, a workbook, AND an activity book, not to mention extra worksheets... My kid is juggling 10 subjects in first grade alone. Someone mentioned foreign languages—we're doing English and Spanish (via a language academy), and since day one, they've been learning how to read and write them. It’s no big deal because American kids start writing these subjects early, and personally, I think that's better for them... My son stays for after-school care, but he still does homework at home. Not because he's lazy, but because I insist on it. There are too many kids in after-school programs for one teacher to handle everything, so it's easier for them to just fix mistakes or write in the correct answers for them. Personally, I don't want my kid turning in homework where 90% of it was already corrected by the teacher (not blaming the teacher, though—blame the system. They need more staff to actually manage the numbers), I want him to learn how to be independent with his responsibilities... I've never questioned a teacher's grading, and I won't start now. I'm not an expert. A teacher only sees a kid for a few hours a day, not 24/7, so they grade based on what they see. I'm happy with my kid's teacher, not because of the grades, but because of the fair, honest, and—as some of you say—strict grading standards. And it makes me happy to see how much respect my kid has for his teacher...🙂🙂🙂

I honestly cannot wrap my head around parents who sit there judging everyone else for wanting their kids to be straight-A students, while simultaneously bragging about how their own kids are geniuses. It’s such a hypocritical mess. And don't even get me started on those people claiming three-year vocational high schools are "perfect" because you can just "re-skill or go back to school later." Give me a break! They completely ignore the fact that the education in those programs is absolute garbage—you end up with kids who graduated from a bakery program somehow ending up as auto mechanics. It makes zero sense.

Austin Chavez5 said:I honestly cannot wrap my head around parents who sit there judging everyone else for wanting their kids to be straight-A students, while simultaneously bragging about how their own kids are geniuses. It’s such a hypocritical mess. And don't even get me started on those people claiming three-year vocational high schools are "perfect" because you can just "re-skill or go back to school later." Give me a break! They completely ignore the fact that the education in those programs is absolute garbage—you end up with kids who graduated from a bakery program somehow ending up as auto mechanics. It makes zero sense.

All this frantic hysteria surrounding grades is, fundamentally, incredibly detrimental to a child's psychological development and the formation of their character. Regrettably, the weight placed on academic grades begins as early as elementary school, and even teachers seem inclined to judge a student's entire personality based solely on a GPA. This is deeply flawed, particularly when those marks are driven by innate genetic aptitude—something a child has absolutely no control over. That is the primary failure, which is then compounded by parents and extended family through their own neuroticism, failing to realize the damage they are inflicting. If a parent insists their child is "perfect" simply because they earn straight As, the child inevitably wonders: what happens if my GPA drops for some reason? Will I cease to be perfect? Will my parents stop loving me? Teachers really ought to give parents some much-needed guidance on this, but how can they, when many have yet to master the basic principles themselves?

Austin Chavez5 said:I honestly cannot wrap my head around parents who sit there judging everyone else for wanting their kids to be straight-A students, while simultaneously bragging about how their own kids are geniuses. It’s such a hypocritical mess. And don't even get me started on those people claiming three-year vocational high schools are "perfect" because you can just "re-skill or go back to school later." Give me a break! They completely ignore the fact that the education in those programs is absolute garbage—you end up with kids who graduated from a bakery program somehow ending up as auto mechanics. It makes zero sense.

Three-year vocational programs are highly inappropriate and lack quality altogether. No student deserves to receive such an inferior education.

dustysailor13 said:Clearly you don't have kids in school. First semester is uppercase/lowercase print and addition/subtraction up to 10. Second semester is addition/subtraction up to 20 plus cursive... and I disagree that the pace is slow. My kid has a textbook, a workbook, AND an activity book, not to mention extra worksheets... My kid is juggling 10 subjects in first grade alone. Someone mentioned foreign languages—we're doing English and Spanish (via a language academy), and since day one, they've been learning how to read and write them. It’s no big deal because American kids start writing these subjects early, and personally, I think that's better for them... My son stays for after-school care, but he still does homework at home. Not because he's lazy, but because I insist on it. There are too many kids in after-school programs for one teacher to handle everything, so it's easier for them to just fix mistakes or write in the correct answers for them. Personally, I don't want my kid turning in homework where 90% of it was already corrected by the teacher (not blaming the teacher, though—blame the system. They need more staff to actually manage the numbers), I want him to learn how to be independent with his responsibilities... I've never questioned a teacher's grading, and I won't start now. I'm not an expert. A teacher only sees a kid for a few hours a day, not 24/7, so they grade based on what they see. I'm happy with my kid's teacher, not because of the grades, but because of the fair, honest, and—as some of you say—strict grading standards. And it makes me happy to see how much respect my kid has for his teacher...🙂🙂🙂

Is that Italian school here in the States or over in Italy? Also, care to list those 10 subjects? As for the math and English curriculum you mentioned—that's basically what every other first grader in the country is doing.

Austin Chavez5 said:Are you even a teacher? Sorry, but honestly, looks like you figured that out for yourself a long time ago. As for Tyler Reyes86, I don't give a damn whether they have an education degree or not 😉.

And you’re just some grammar nerd hunting for typos on a forum☕

I'm not apologizing for a typo😍 or for typing fast while holding a ten-month-old in my arms👍

Tyler Reyes86 said:All this frantic hysteria surrounding grades is, fundamentally, incredibly detrimental to a child's psychological development and the formation of their character. Regrettably, the weight placed on academic grades begins as early as elementary school, and even teachers seem inclined to judge a student's entire personality based solely on a GPA. This is deeply flawed, particularly when those marks are driven by innate genetic aptitude—something a child has absolutely no control over. That is the primary failure, which is then compounded by parents and extended family through their own neuroticism, failing to realize the damage they are inflicting. If a parent insists their child is "perfect" simply because they earn straight As, the child inevitably wonders: what happens if my GPA drops for some reason? Will I cease to be perfect? Will my parents stop loving me? Teachers really ought to give parents some much-needed guidance on this, but how can they, when many have yet to master the basic principles themselves?

Three-year vocational programs are highly inappropriate and lack quality altogether. No student deserves to receive such an inferior education.

👍

Look, Dobrica, I’m 31, and honestly, my opinion doesn't even matter here. I'm just a parent. And as for the editors? It’s not their job to go around fixing every little typo on some random internet forum. But man, those mistakes you're making are jumping right out at me—and trust me, there are plenty more where those came from. Especially since you went out of your way to say you're a teacher.

Tyler Reyes86 said:Oh, so little Ivica from IIIc is actually a college student now. My goodness, look at that! Who would have thought?

College exams are taken during specific exam periods, whereas in K-12, testing happens constantly because you have to continuously monitor the work of the students. In college, that isn't required. No one cares if a student studies regularly or if they were blessed by some fairy in their crib so they can cram the entire syllabus into two days and two nights. In many college courses, there aren't even midterms scheduled, or they are held right before the final exam period. Please, try to understand that the approach to young children has to be qualitatively different. Pedagogy is one discipline, while andragogy is quite another. That is why they are distinct sciences; otherwise, they would be one and the same. Children need to be raised and guided, whereas adults, if they choose, simply need to be taught, because their characters are already formed.

How do you think it has nothing to do with this? In your opinion, is that bolded part okay? Do you realize what kind of developmental problem it creates when children consume garbage in their spare time? That kind of content has a massive impact on their behavior and their values. Generally speaking, school isn't just an educational institution; it's supposed to be a formative one. Or rather, it *should* be.

But I will agree with you on one point. If a school doesn't want to be a formative institution—if the primary focus is solely on a student's innate abilities and their test scores, measured by universal criteria that are identical for everyone—then the school should be designed using a university model. In that case, tracking a student's regular daily work becomes completely pointless; instead, they should just implement exam periods, with all the same options for retakes that college students have.
Because the worst kind of school is one that merely pretends to care about character building, while the teachers couldn't care less about the moral messages they are sending students through their comments, grades, and assessments. If that's the case, it would be more honest not to call them a school at all, but rather a miniature university for children.

Look, when someone takes my post and jumps to this kind of conclusion, I can usually assume one of two things: either you didn't grasp what I was saying at all, or you're really trying hard to be funny.

At the same time, it’s just more proof that for some people, effort is a lost cause.😁

Austin Chavez5 said:I honestly cannot wrap my head around parents who sit there judging everyone else for wanting their kids to be straight-A students, while simultaneously bragging about how their own kids are geniuses. It’s such a hypocritical mess. And don't even get me started on those people claiming three-year vocational high schools are "perfect" because you can just "re-skill or go back to school later." Give me a break! They completely ignore the fact that the education in those programs is absolute garbage—you end up with kids who graduated from a bakery program somehow ending up as auto mechanics. It makes zero sense.

I don't recall anyone saying three-year programs were "perfect"—but let's be real, there are plenty of kids who simply can't keep up with the pace of a standard four-year high school curriculum. At the end of the day, they have every right to get an education, earn a credential, and build a life for themselves.

David Palmer5 said:I don't recall anyone saying three-year programs were "perfect"—but let's be real, there are plenty of kids who simply can't keep up with the pace of a standard four-year high school curriculum. At the end of the day, they have every right to get an education, earn a credential, and build a life for themselves.

I'm totally with you on this.

I’m totally on board with this 😁:

Tyler Reyes86 said:All this frantic hysteria surrounding grades is, fundamentally, incredibly detrimental to a child's psychological development and the formation of their character. Regrettably, the weight placed on academic grades begins as early as elementary school, and even teachers seem inclined to judge a student's entire personality based solely on a GPA. This is deeply flawed, particularly when those marks are driven by innate genetic aptitude—something a child has absolutely no control over. That is the primary failure, which is then compounded by parents and extended family through their own neuroticism, failing to realize the damage they are inflicting. If a parent insists their child is "perfect" simply because they earn straight As, the child inevitably wonders: what happens if my GPA drops for some reason? Will I cease to be perfect? Will my parents stop loving me? Teachers really ought to give parents some much-needed guidance on this, but how can they, when many have yet to master the basic principles themselves?

Three-year vocational programs are highly inappropriate and lack quality altogether. No student deserves to receive such an inferior education.

David Palmer5 said:I don't recall anyone saying three-year programs were "perfect"—but let's be real, there are plenty of kids who simply can't keep up with the pace of a standard four-year high school curriculum. At the end of the day, they have every right to get an education, earn a credential, and build a life for themselves.

Where on earth are you getting that from? What research are you even basing this on? If you're talking about children with severe medical issues or profound cognitive disabilities, we aren't even talking about "independence" anymore, because those individuals require lifelong care.
But if you're referring to, to put it in terms you might appreciate, the "lesser bright," then I should inform you that five hundred years ago, 95% of the population in Europe fell into that category. There were simply too many illiterate people back then. The clergy would hand-pick only the exceptionally gifted boys for further schooling—those with a specific talent for parroting Latin prayers. For everyone else, it was assumed they were incapable of becoming literate. It was thought that if they couldn't learn to read and write, there was no point in wasting effort on them.
It’s the exact same logic you're using today: suggesting that certain kids deserve subpar schooling because their genetic makeup is supposedly too poor to justify investing in high-quality instruction.
As if they wouldn't just collapse under the weight of one extra year of school, as though their heads might actually explode from being taught too much.

David Palmer5 said:Look, when someone takes my post and jumps to this kind of conclusion, I can usually assume one of two things: either you didn't grasp what I was saying at all, or you're really trying hard to be funny.

At the same time, it’s just more proof that for some people, effort is a lost cause.😁

Just more baseless assumptions without a shred of logical reasoning. Honestly, though, it doesn't even surprise me anymore; I'm slowly getting used to it.😁

Guys, seriously, stay on topic! 🙈

Austin Chavez5 said:Look, Dobrica, I’m 31, and honestly, my opinion doesn't even matter here. I'm just a parent. And as for the editors? It’s not their job to go around fixing every little typo on some random internet forum. But man, those mistakes you're making are jumping right out at me—and trust me, there are plenty more where those came from. Especially since you went out of your way to say you're a teacher.

Yeah, obviously there are typos... like, right now I started this sentence with a lowercase letter because I'm too lazy to fix it.😉

But honestly? I don't care. People love nitpicking, especially when they're gunning for teachers.👍They're just waiting for one slip-up.

I'm just typing whatever comes to mind because this forum is just a way to kill time and have some fun. I couldn't care less how people write... just like I don't care when my accountant messes up my paycheck, even though they've been doing it for 20 years.😉

Anyway, that's totally off-topic, so I'm done explaining myself or arguing. This thread has gone completely off the rails anyway.👎:clapping::clapping::clapping:

Peace.🙂