Grading Freshmen

jadegardener21 said:Perhaps I am simply failing to grasp your logic, so I shall ask for clarification: are you suggesting that a grade should be primarily a reflection of sheer effort and hard work, while the actual mastery of subject matter on a standardized scale remains merely secondary? It seems to me that you are advocating for nothing more than blatant double standards, pushing an evaluation system based on the incredibly murky and frankly unquantifiable notion of "natural aptitude"... as if such a thing could ever truly be measured by any rational metric...

To be perfectly honest, I know someone whose kid is currently navigating seventh grade, and there’s this one student sitting right in the same classroom who happens to be a member of Mensa... and it really gets me thinking about the sheer inequity of it all. You would assume that if a child is flagged as being exceptionally gifted, the academic standards should actually be heightened—that they should be held to a much more rigorous set of criteria where every single mistake is scrutinized and graded accordingly... but instead, it seems like the teachers just go easy on him. They coddle him, letting things slide and practically turning a blind eye whenever he decides he simply doesn't feel like doing the work... it's quite frustrating to witness such blatant favoritism under the guise of "special needs"...

And why on earth would they go around docking his grade for every little mistake he makes? It seems rather unfair, doesn't it... if we are applying the same standards to everyone else, then surely those same rules should apply to him as well...
Cover-ups and turning a blind eye... well, I am certainly not attempting to justify them, because if we are talking about a standard classroom setting, the rules ought to be applied uniformly to every student, regardless of whether the outcome favors the individual or not... though even when things *are* going his way, there seems to be an irrational urge to tighten the screws—take mathematics, for instance, why on earth should he be subjected to more stringent grading standards just because he shows an aptitude for it?! Is a child truly obligated to exploit what others perceive to be their natural talent? It is quite absurd when you think about it... what if the boy had absolutely no interest in math, yet somehow excelled at it anyway? You would still find people eager to slap him with harsher criteria simply because they see his potential, while all he wants is to navigate the system just like any other kid, being neither guilty nor innocent of having a knack for a subject that doesn't even interest him...

On the other hand, you have that one kid in the class who just processes things a bit differently... he’s a little slower on the uptake, I suppose. And look, the boy tries—he really does, and his work ethic is actually quite commendable—but he simply cannot break past a B, no matter how hard he pushes himself... which leads me to wonder, if we start bending the rules to inflate his grades, what exactly are we supposed to do for the actual little geniuses in the room?
So, they apply the exact same set of standards to someone who was born under a lucky star as they do to someone whom nature itself has already punished... and now, quite predictably, they’ve decided he needs to be punished by them as well...

A "very good" grade is a punishment? What on earth are you even talking about... I mean, really... what kind of logic is that supposed to be?!
The criteria MUST remain identical for every single child within the same classroom. The fundamental failure of our American school system is its inability to provide specialized curricula for those little geniuses who need more stimulation, yet we certainly shouldn't be "solving" that deficiency by implementing double standards... which only serves to undermine the entire foundation of fair play...
The grading criteria are strictly based on averages, which frankly seems like a fundamentally flawed approach... If a child who struggles more than most puts in an extraordinary amount of effort just to reach a certain level, they end up receiving a grade that reflects a higher average—say, a B—but why on earth should that be considered anything other than their earned result? How can anyone possibly frame this as "punishing" the student?! It isn't a punishment at all; it is his actual, hard-won grade... We ought to be celebrating his grit and his sheer persistence by awarding him that B, rather than handing out some participation trophy grade that he hasn't truly mastered and ultimately cannot stand behind...

I find myself wondering if anyone truly grasps the weight of what it means to stand behind one's grades—not just from the perspective of the student receiving them, but also for the teacher tasked with issuing them... It isn't as if grades are simply "handed out" like participation trophies or some arbitrary gesture of kindness, no, they ought to be a precise reflection of a person's actual mastery over a subject. An "A" grade should belong to a student who can look you in the eye and defend that mark, just as much as it belongs to an educator who can rest easy knowing their assessment of that knowledge is nothing short of exceptional...

Absolutely. When a teacher actually takes the time to truly get to know their students, they aren't just guessing—they develop a genuine understanding of what those kids are capable of. It’s not some vague, shot-in-the-dark estimate; it's based on real insight.

jadegardener21 said:Perhaps I am simply failing to grasp your logic, so I shall ask for clarification: are you suggesting that a grade should be primarily a reflection of sheer effort and hard work, while the actual mastery of subject matter on a standardized scale remains merely secondary? It seems to me that you are advocating for nothing more than blatant double standards, pushing an evaluation system based on the incredibly murky and frankly unquantifiable notion of "natural aptitude"... as if such a thing could ever truly be measured by any rational metric...

To be perfectly honest, I know someone whose kid is currently navigating seventh grade, and there’s this one student sitting right in the same classroom who happens to be a member of Mensa... and it really gets me thinking about the sheer inequity of it all. You would assume that if a child is flagged as being exceptionally gifted, the academic standards should actually be heightened—that they should be held to a much more rigorous set of criteria where every single mistake is scrutinized and graded accordingly... but instead, it seems like the teachers just go easy on him. They coddle him, letting things slide and practically turning a blind eye whenever he decides he simply doesn't feel like doing the work... it's quite frustrating to witness such blatant favoritism under the guise of "special needs"...

And why on earth would they go around docking his grade for every little mistake he makes? It seems rather unfair, doesn't it... if we are applying the same standards to everyone else, then surely those same rules should apply to him as well...
Cover-ups and turning a blind eye... well, I am certainly not attempting to justify them, because if we are talking about a standard classroom setting, the rules ought to be applied uniformly to every student, regardless of whether the outcome favors the individual or not... though even when things *are* going his way, there seems to be an irrational urge to tighten the screws—take mathematics, for instance, why on earth should he be subjected to more stringent grading standards just because he shows an aptitude for it?! Is a child truly obligated to exploit what others perceive to be their natural talent? It is quite absurd when you think about it... what if the boy had absolutely no interest in math, yet somehow excelled at it anyway? You would still find people eager to slap him with harsher criteria simply because they see his potential, while all he wants is to navigate the system just like any other kid, being neither guilty nor innocent of having a knack for a subject that doesn't even interest him...

On the other hand, you have that one kid in the class who just processes things a bit differently... he’s a little slower on the uptake, I suppose. And look, the boy tries—he really does, and his work ethic is actually quite commendable—but he simply cannot break past a B, no matter how hard he pushes himself... which leads me to wonder, if we start bending the rules to inflate his grades, what exactly are we supposed to do for the actual little geniuses in the room?
So, they apply the exact same set of standards to someone who was born under a lucky star as they do to someone whom nature itself has already punished... and now, quite predictably, they’ve decided he needs to be punished by them as well...

A "very good" grade is a punishment? What on earth are you even talking about... I mean, really... what kind of logic is that supposed to be?!
The criteria MUST remain identical for every single child within the same classroom. The fundamental failure of our American school system is its inability to provide specialized curricula for those little geniuses who need more stimulation, yet we certainly shouldn't be "solving" that deficiency by implementing double standards... which only serves to undermine the entire foundation of fair play...
The grading criteria are strictly based on averages, which frankly seems like a fundamentally flawed approach... If a child who struggles more than most puts in an extraordinary amount of effort just to reach a certain level, they end up receiving a grade that reflects a higher average—say, a B—but why on earth should that be considered anything other than their earned result? How can anyone possibly frame this as "punishing" the student?! It isn't a punishment at all; it is his actual, hard-won grade... We ought to be celebrating his grit and his sheer persistence by awarding him that B, rather than handing out some participation trophy grade that he hasn't truly mastered and ultimately cannot stand behind...

I find myself wondering if anyone truly grasps the weight of what it means to stand behind one's grades—not just from the perspective of the student receiving them, but also for the teacher tasked with issuing them... It isn't as if grades are simply "handed out" like participation trophies or some arbitrary gesture of kindness, no, they ought to be a precise reflection of a person's actual mastery over a subject. An "A" grade should belong to a student who can look you in the eye and defend that mark, just as much as it belongs to an educator who can rest easy knowing their assessment of that knowledge is nothing short of exceptional...

So, you’re actually suggesting that it’s acceptable to raise a generation of slackers and loafers? And to go as far as giving them special rewards just for putting in the absolute bare minimum effort whenever they deign to show up?

jadegardener21 said:Perhaps I am simply failing to grasp your logic, so I shall ask for clarification: are you suggesting that a grade should be primarily a reflection of sheer effort and hard work, while the actual mastery of subject matter on a standardized scale remains merely secondary? It seems to me that you are advocating for nothing more than blatant double standards, pushing an evaluation system based on the incredibly murky and frankly unquantifiable notion of "natural aptitude"... as if such a thing could ever truly be measured by any rational metric...

To be perfectly honest, I know someone whose kid is currently navigating seventh grade, and there’s this one student sitting right in the same classroom who happens to be a member of Mensa... and it really gets me thinking about the sheer inequity of it all. You would assume that if a child is flagged as being exceptionally gifted, the academic standards should actually be heightened—that they should be held to a much more rigorous set of criteria where every single mistake is scrutinized and graded accordingly... but instead, it seems like the teachers just go easy on him. They coddle him, letting things slide and practically turning a blind eye whenever he decides he simply doesn't feel like doing the work... it's quite frustrating to witness such blatant favoritism under the guise of "special needs"...

And why on earth would they go around docking his grade for every little mistake he makes? It seems rather unfair, doesn't it... if we are applying the same standards to everyone else, then surely those same rules should apply to him as well...
Cover-ups and turning a blind eye... well, I am certainly not attempting to justify them, because if we are talking about a standard classroom setting, the rules ought to be applied uniformly to every student, regardless of whether the outcome favors the individual or not... though even when things *are* going his way, there seems to be an irrational urge to tighten the screws—take mathematics, for instance, why on earth should he be subjected to more stringent grading standards just because he shows an aptitude for it?! Is a child truly obligated to exploit what others perceive to be their natural talent? It is quite absurd when you think about it... what if the boy had absolutely no interest in math, yet somehow excelled at it anyway? You would still find people eager to slap him with harsher criteria simply because they see his potential, while all he wants is to navigate the system just like any other kid, being neither guilty nor innocent of having a knack for a subject that doesn't even interest him...

On the other hand, you have that one kid in the class who just processes things a bit differently... he’s a little slower on the uptake, I suppose. And look, the boy tries—he really does, and his work ethic is actually quite commendable—but he simply cannot break past a B, no matter how hard he pushes himself... which leads me to wonder, if we start bending the rules to inflate his grades, what exactly are we supposed to do for the actual little geniuses in the room?
So, they apply the exact same set of standards to someone who was born under a lucky star as they do to someone whom nature itself has already punished... and now, quite predictably, they’ve decided he needs to be punished by them as well...

A "very good" grade is a punishment? What on earth are you even talking about... I mean, really... what kind of logic is that supposed to be?!
The criteria MUST remain identical for every single child within the same classroom. The fundamental failure of our American school system is its inability to provide specialized curricula for those little geniuses who need more stimulation, yet we certainly shouldn't be "solving" that deficiency by implementing double standards... which only serves to undermine the entire foundation of fair play...
The grading criteria are strictly based on averages, which frankly seems like a fundamentally flawed approach... If a child who struggles more than most puts in an extraordinary amount of effort just to reach a certain level, they end up receiving a grade that reflects a higher average—say, a B—but why on earth should that be considered anything other than their earned result? How can anyone possibly frame this as "punishing" the student?! It isn't a punishment at all; it is his actual, hard-won grade... We ought to be celebrating his grit and his sheer persistence by awarding him that B, rather than handing out some participation trophy grade that he hasn't truly mastered and ultimately cannot stand behind...

I find myself wondering if anyone truly grasps the weight of what it means to stand behind one's grades—not just from the perspective of the student receiving them, but also for the teacher tasked with issuing them... It isn't as if grades are simply "handed out" like participation trophies or some arbitrary gesture of kindness, no, they ought to be a precise reflection of a person's actual mastery over a subject. An "A" grade should belong to a student who can look you in the eye and defend that mark, just as much as it belongs to an educator who can rest easy knowing their assessment of that knowledge is nothing short of exceptional...

Why on earth would we expect the criteria to be identical? It makes absolutely no sense. Of course there ought to be various standards in place. I mean, how else are you supposed to cultivate actual work ethic if the job itself isn't treated as something essential?

jadegardener21 said:Perhaps I am simply failing to grasp your logic, so I shall ask for clarification: are you suggesting that a grade should be primarily a reflection of sheer effort and hard work, while the actual mastery of subject matter on a standardized scale remains merely secondary? It seems to me that you are advocating for nothing more than blatant double standards, pushing an evaluation system based on the incredibly murky and frankly unquantifiable notion of "natural aptitude"... as if such a thing could ever truly be measured by any rational metric...

To be perfectly honest, I know someone whose kid is currently navigating seventh grade, and there’s this one student sitting right in the same classroom who happens to be a member of Mensa... and it really gets me thinking about the sheer inequity of it all. You would assume that if a child is flagged as being exceptionally gifted, the academic standards should actually be heightened—that they should be held to a much more rigorous set of criteria where every single mistake is scrutinized and graded accordingly... but instead, it seems like the teachers just go easy on him. They coddle him, letting things slide and practically turning a blind eye whenever he decides he simply doesn't feel like doing the work... it's quite frustrating to witness such blatant favoritism under the guise of "special needs"...

And why on earth would they go around docking his grade for every little mistake he makes? It seems rather unfair, doesn't it... if we are applying the same standards to everyone else, then surely those same rules should apply to him as well...
Cover-ups and turning a blind eye... well, I am certainly not attempting to justify them, because if we are talking about a standard classroom setting, the rules ought to be applied uniformly to every student, regardless of whether the outcome favors the individual or not... though even when things *are* going his way, there seems to be an irrational urge to tighten the screws—take mathematics, for instance, why on earth should he be subjected to more stringent grading standards just because he shows an aptitude for it?! Is a child truly obligated to exploit what others perceive to be their natural talent? It is quite absurd when you think about it... what if the boy had absolutely no interest in math, yet somehow excelled at it anyway? You would still find people eager to slap him with harsher criteria simply because they see his potential, while all he wants is to navigate the system just like any other kid, being neither guilty nor innocent of having a knack for a subject that doesn't even interest him...

On the other hand, you have that one kid in the class who just processes things a bit differently... he’s a little slower on the uptake, I suppose. And look, the boy tries—he really does, and his work ethic is actually quite commendable—but he simply cannot break past a B, no matter how hard he pushes himself... which leads me to wonder, if we start bending the rules to inflate his grades, what exactly are we supposed to do for the actual little geniuses in the room?
So, they apply the exact same set of standards to someone who was born under a lucky star as they do to someone whom nature itself has already punished... and now, quite predictably, they’ve decided he needs to be punished by them as well...

A "very good" grade is a punishment? What on earth are you even talking about... I mean, really... what kind of logic is that supposed to be?!
The criteria MUST remain identical for every single child within the same classroom. The fundamental failure of our American school system is its inability to provide specialized curricula for those little geniuses who need more stimulation, yet we certainly shouldn't be "solving" that deficiency by implementing double standards... which only serves to undermine the entire foundation of fair play...
The grading criteria are strictly based on averages, which frankly seems like a fundamentally flawed approach... If a child who struggles more than most puts in an extraordinary amount of effort just to reach a certain level, they end up receiving a grade that reflects a higher average—say, a B—but why on earth should that be considered anything other than their earned result? How can anyone possibly frame this as "punishing" the student?! It isn't a punishment at all; it is his actual, hard-won grade... We ought to be celebrating his grit and his sheer persistence by awarding him that B, rather than handing out some participation trophy grade that he hasn't truly mastered and ultimately cannot stand behind...

I find myself wondering if anyone truly grasps the weight of what it means to stand behind one's grades—not just from the perspective of the student receiving them, but also for the teacher tasked with issuing them... It isn't as if grades are simply "handed out" like participation trophies or some arbitrary gesture of kindness, no, they ought to be a precise reflection of a person's actual mastery over a subject. An "A" grade should belong to a student who can look you in the eye and defend that mark, just as much as it belongs to an educator who can rest easy knowing their assessment of that knowledge is nothing short of exceptional...

Let’s be clear: a grade earned through steady effort and genuine student hard work isn't some kind of charity case. However, those grades handed out when students are just yawning through class or wasting time—getting maybe fifteen minutes of actual learning done—those are almost always gifts, whether it's a D or an A.

And this notion that kids are somehow "predestined" to receive certain grades because they were simply born that way? Honestly, I can only call that shameful racism. It truly baffles me how any human being could possibly stand behind such views.

Susan James said:In my opinion, we really shouldn't be grading subjects like art, music, or PE at all.

Exactly right!

Kate Sullivan12 said:Look, Tyler Reyes86, you’re seriously getting under my skin (you and your attitude) 😠

What a massive waste of energy. I can't paint for shit. You could put me in a class taught by Rabuzin and shove a brush up my ass—I'd still end up painting like a toddler in preschool. I'll try, sure, but the result is gonna be garbage.

Just because I'm putting in the work doesn't mean I'm getting into RISD, and nobody's paying a single damn cent for my art because it's total SHIT.

That's why RESULTS actually matter!!! If you give a kid who screams like a donkey straight A's and tell them they're the next big thing, all you've done is make them delusional. They'll grow up lost in the sauce, unable to recognize their own lack of talent...

Oh, really? Is that so? Just because your middle school art teacher gave you an A because you were "helpful" making posters for the class even though you can't draw to save your life, what then? Are you suddenly going to believe you're the next Michelangelo? Please, stop talking such nonsense.

Tyler Reyes86 said:I think you might be misinformed on this one. There are standard programs for average students, yes, but there are also specially adapted curricula and individualized approaches for students facing learning difficulties. Furthermore, there are dedicated enrichment programs specifically designed for gifted students.

I fail to see why any child should be penalized with a poor grade just because they lack hearing, or perhaps a knack for painting, or a talent for sports or math. Or, conversely, why they should be rewarded simply because they were born with a specific talent? Why not grade people on their physical beauty? That, too, is an innate quality.

And yes, you are correct; evaluating children based on their innate abilities is a natural impulse. However, that is how primitive tribes living in the Stone Age operate. A civilized society provides for different rules. Unfortunately, it seems many people aren't aware they actually live in a civilized society, so they continue to cling to customs from the jungle.

Actually, you can, and in many ways, you must. Perhaps look into the concept of affirmative action and how it functions within developed societies.

What "black average" are we talking about? Where does this "average" exist, other than in the minds of poor statisticians? A classroom isn't composed of an "average"; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique characteristics. Any teacher who is unable to respect that fundamental fact is simply incapable of working with children.

As for this supposed grade inflation among top students, there really isn't any cause for alarm; by the time graduation rolls around, we’re looking at a mere 7% of the class reaching that level.

Actually, anyone who puts in extraordinary effort has earned that A. Educational psychology doesn't just look at achievements—which are relative anyway, depending on who you're being compared to—it also recognizes hard work and dedication. In fact, one could argue the whole point of schooling is to help kids build work ethic and self-teaching skills, rather than just showing off specific talents like some kind of circus act.

You aren't the only parent here; plenty of others have kids too.

When children are allowed to achieve what you call "top-tier results" (which I assume means getting high grades) without breaking a sweat, they end up becoming lazy and disinterested in working. Why? Because they don't need to put in the effort. Then, when they eventually face real-world situations where hard work is mandatory, they're completely lost; they simply haven't learned how to grind. To not demand more from a particularly gifted student is, frankly, bad pedagogy.

You really hit the nail on the head with this one. 🙂
Think about the kid who struggles just to sound out words but works incredibly hard to earn an A. They might even make the local news for being an honor student. Because of that, they get the whole summer off to just chill. Mom coddles them, Dad tells them they can do whatever they want since they worked so hard all year, and the grandparents spoil them rotten, telling them they don't need to read comics or books right now because they're such a star—unlike the kids getting Cs who have to study all summer. Fast forward to middle school, and suddenly they're failing History or Geography. Even the English teacher is left wondering why there isn't a failing grade for kids who literally can't even read yet! On top of that, they've become totally unmotivated and disinterested in school.
And let's be real: if a kid hasn't mastered reading, they aren't just "not studying," they physically *can't* study effectively.

Grading based solely on effort is honestly a bit senseless.
We should definitely praise effort, but we need to see if that effort is actually productive (some kids try really hard but just aren't grasping the concept—we need to figure out why). We also have to look at whether that effort is truly coming from the child, or if it's just a joint project between the parent and the kid, or even just the parent doing all the heavy lifting!

Tyler Reyes86 said:I think you might be misinformed on this one. There are standard programs for average students, yes, but there are also specially adapted curricula and individualized approaches for students facing learning difficulties. Furthermore, there are dedicated enrichment programs specifically designed for gifted students.

I fail to see why any child should be penalized with a poor grade just because they lack hearing, or perhaps a knack for painting, or a talent for sports or math. Or, conversely, why they should be rewarded simply because they were born with a specific talent? Why not grade people on their physical beauty? That, too, is an innate quality.

And yes, you are correct; evaluating children based on their innate abilities is a natural impulse. However, that is how primitive tribes living in the Stone Age operate. A civilized society provides for different rules. Unfortunately, it seems many people aren't aware they actually live in a civilized society, so they continue to cling to customs from the jungle.

Actually, you can, and in many ways, you must. Perhaps look into the concept of affirmative action and how it functions within developed societies.

What "black average" are we talking about? Where does this "average" exist, other than in the minds of poor statisticians? A classroom isn't composed of an "average"; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique characteristics. Any teacher who is unable to respect that fundamental fact is simply incapable of working with children.

As for this supposed grade inflation among top students, there really isn't any cause for alarm; by the time graduation rolls around, we’re looking at a mere 7% of the class reaching that level.

Actually, anyone who puts in extraordinary effort has earned that A. Educational psychology doesn't just look at achievements—which are relative anyway, depending on who you're being compared to—it also recognizes hard work and dedication. In fact, one could argue the whole point of schooling is to help kids build work ethic and self-teaching skills, rather than just showing off specific talents like some kind of circus act.

You aren't the only parent here; plenty of others have kids too.

When children are allowed to achieve what you call "top-tier results" (which I assume means getting high grades) without breaking a sweat, they end up becoming lazy and disinterested in working. Why? Because they don't need to put in the effort. Then, when they eventually face real-world situations where hard work is mandatory, they're completely lost; they simply haven't learned how to grind. To not demand more from a particularly gifted student is, frankly, bad pedagogy.

The absolute truth! 👍

Tyler Reyes86 said:Oh, really? Is that so? Just because your middle school art teacher gave you an A because you were "helpful" making posters for the class even though you can't draw to save your life, what then? Are you suddenly going to believe you're the next Michelangelo? Please, stop talking such nonsense.

Duh, obviously not 😁

But hey, if my teacher gives me an A in English, maybe I'll actually start believing I can read... 😂

Susan James said:You really hit the nail on the head with this one. 🙂
Think about the kid who struggles just to sound out words but works incredibly hard to earn an A. They might even make the local news for being an honor student. Because of that, they get the whole summer off to just chill. Mom coddles them, Dad tells them they can do whatever they want since they worked so hard all year, and the grandparents spoil them rotten, telling them they don't need to read comics or books right now because they're such a star—unlike the kids getting Cs who have to study all summer. Fast forward to middle school, and suddenly they're failing History or Geography. Even the English teacher is left wondering why there isn't a failing grade for kids who literally can't even read yet! On top of that, they've become totally unmotivated and disinterested in school.
And let's be real: if a kid hasn't mastered reading, they aren't just "not studying," they physically *can't* study effectively.

Grading based solely on effort is honestly a bit senseless.
We should definitely praise effort, but we need to see if that effort is actually productive (some kids try really hard but just aren't grasping the concept—we need to figure out why). We also have to look at whether that effort is truly coming from the child, or if it's just a joint project between the parent and the kid, or even just the parent doing all the heavy lifting!

So, what you're saying is that it's entirely plausible for a child to put in massive effort and study day in and day out just to earn a high grade, only for the parent to miss it entirely? And then, through sheer lack of guidance—or perhaps active encouragement—they let the kid just coast and become totally lazy during the break?
Your scenario sounds like something straight out of an absurdist comedy.

Susan James said:You really hit the nail on the head with this one. 🙂
Think about the kid who struggles just to sound out words but works incredibly hard to earn an A. They might even make the local news for being an honor student. Because of that, they get the whole summer off to just chill. Mom coddles them, Dad tells them they can do whatever they want since they worked so hard all year, and the grandparents spoil them rotten, telling them they don't need to read comics or books right now because they're such a star—unlike the kids getting Cs who have to study all summer. Fast forward to middle school, and suddenly they're failing History or Geography. Even the English teacher is left wondering why there isn't a failing grade for kids who literally can't even read yet! On top of that, they've become totally unmotivated and disinterested in school.
And let's be real: if a kid hasn't mastered reading, they aren't just "not studying," they physically *can't* study effectively.

Grading based solely on effort is honestly a bit senseless.
We should definitely praise effort, but we need to see if that effort is actually productive (some kids try really hard but just aren't grasping the concept—we need to figure out why). We also have to look at whether that effort is truly coming from the child, or if it's just a joint project between the parent and the kid, or even just the parent doing all the heavy lifting!

On the contrary, grading effort is both possible and the only way that makes sense. Whether someone is working with the child at home, hiring tutors, enrolling them in extracurriculars, or if the child is being neglected and nobody cares—all of that contributes to the overall picture a teacher builds of a student. And of course, communication between parents and the school is absolutely vital.

Jason Ortiz5 said:I mean, let's be real—the preschool psychologist probably spends the least amount of actual time with these kids. I’m not saying I doubt her assessment or anything, but the daycare teachers are the ones actually there day in and day out. It's hard to know how much a specialist can pinpoint in such a quick little window, especially since my own daughter is all over the place. She gets super hyped about something one minute, then she's obsessed for a week, and then suddenly she's totally bored with it. Just goes how it goes, I guess!

Preschool psychologists are literally trained for this kind of thing—assessing school readiness, focus, and cognitive skills—whereas the daycare staff isn't. That’s basically their entire job description. They don't need to hover over a child 24/7; they work based on standardized testing. Besides, when it comes to kindergarten enrollment, the school asks for medical clearances and psychological evaluations, not a thumbs-up from a daycare provider.

That suggestion from the teacher about enrolling your daughter in a smaller private academy early on? It’s actually a great way to gauge her maturity, and it might even back up the psychologist's positive report.

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

Grading isn't just about the final number; there’s an inherent value component to it that people often overlook. We tend to lump repeat offenders together and label them as total failures, which is such a reductive way to look at things. It completely ignores whether or not they actually have a grasp on the subject matter.

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

Affirmative action always operates within the exact same existing framework. Without that foundation, there isn't even a thread to pull. Where exactly are these people being hired—on Mars? No, they’re being integrated into the very same workplace environments as everyone else.

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

That’s certainly one way to look at it, but in my opinion, plenty of people would see things quite differently.

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

No, look, a low grade in music isn't some reflection on the child's character or upbringing; it’s simply down to their genetic makeup. The kid isn't responsible for that, because you can't exactly go out and rewrite your DNA, right? It is fundamentally the same thing as if someone were grading you on your height or your eye color. If a student gets a poor mark for something they can't control, they might just end up with a stomachache from all the unnecessary stress—since there is absolutely nothing they can do to change the outcome.

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

It’s the high school and college administrations that hold this unreasonable fetish, not the parents.

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

In my view, it is unacceptable for a student's grade to be dictated by genetics. After all, no one can be held accountable for their biological makeup, and they certainly shouldn't face consequences because of it.

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

No, why would it be unfair to demand more from someone who hit the genetic jackpot through Mother Nature's roulette?

Tyler Reyes86 said:I think you might be misinformed on this one. There are standard programs for average students, yes, but there are also specially adapted curricula and individualized approaches for students facing learning difficulties. Furthermore, there are dedicated enrichment programs specifically designed for gifted students.

I fail to see why any child should be penalized with a poor grade just because they lack hearing, or perhaps a knack for painting, or a talent for sports or math. Or, conversely, why they should be rewarded simply because they were born with a specific talent? Why not grade people on their physical beauty? That, too, is an innate quality.

And yes, you are correct; evaluating children based on their innate abilities is a natural impulse. However, that is how primitive tribes living in the Stone Age operate. A civilized society provides for different rules. Unfortunately, it seems many people aren't aware they actually live in a civilized society, so they continue to cling to customs from the jungle.

Actually, you can, and in many ways, you must. Perhaps look into the concept of affirmative action and how it functions within developed societies.

What "black average" are we talking about? Where does this "average" exist, other than in the minds of poor statisticians? A classroom isn't composed of an "average"; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique characteristics. Any teacher who is unable to respect that fundamental fact is simply incapable of working with children.

As for this supposed grade inflation among top students, there really isn't any cause for alarm; by the time graduation rolls around, we’re looking at a mere 7% of the class reaching that level.

Actually, anyone who puts in extraordinary effort has earned that A. Educational psychology doesn't just look at achievements—which are relative anyway, depending on who you're being compared to—it also recognizes hard work and dedication. In fact, one could argue the whole point of schooling is to help kids build work ethic and self-teaching skills, rather than just showing off specific talents like some kind of circus act.

You aren't the only parent here; plenty of others have kids too.

When children are allowed to achieve what you call "top-tier results" (which I assume means getting high grades) without breaking a sweat, they end up becoming lazy and disinterested in working. Why? Because they don't need to put in the effort. Then, when they eventually face real-world situations where hard work is mandatory, they're completely lost; they simply haven't learned how to grind. To not demand more from a particularly gifted student is, frankly, bad pedagogy.

Does any of this actually exist in practice? Or is it just something written down in a handbook?

To be honest, I’m wrestling with the same dilemma as stefy, though my experience has been a bit more complicated. My oldest son is almost certainly a gifted kid—he was picking up letters at two, reading and writing by four, and he wasn't just sounding things out; he was reading actual children's books. Before he even hit first grade, he was comfortable with three-digit numbers, basic arithmetic, and even some simple fractions. We never pushed him toward academics; we just followed his lead and tried to feed that natural hunger for learning.

On the flip side, emotionally, he was completely immature, so we never seriously considered enrolling him in school early. But since he arrived with enough knowledge to carry him through at least halfway through third grade, he just got incredibly bored. That boredom spiraled into real behavioral issues, which I suspect was the root cause of him struggling so much to develop solid study habits. When you can already calculate with three-digit numbers, being forced to mindlessly repeat addition drills with single digits for an entire semester probably feels like a punishment rather than education. And as for special treatment? It doesn't exist. Sometimes it truly feels like the sole purpose of our American school system is to force everyone into being mediocre, leading to all those other negative fallout points that Tyler Reyes86 mentioned.

Now, if those were my only concerns, I’d consider it a luxury, but I have another child. This little guy barely managed to hold a pencil during those first couple of years; all those magnetic letters and educational toys were buried deep in the basement, tucked away under Sunny's old alphabet sets and number games that we never even bothered to set up on the new computer. Sadly, none of that really helped😁. He’s four now, and you can probably guess—he’s already reading and writing words, starting to string them together into sentences, and there isn't a letter he can't spell. He isn't asking about division yet, but he’s definitely fascinated by three-digit numbers... and instead of feeling joyful about that, I honestly feel a sense of dread. I don't want to exaggerate, because I know exactly what lies ahead. Fortunately, he isn't as hyperactive as his brother, so he probably won't cause quite as much chaos, but still... I hate the idea of robbing him of a year of childhood if we were to enroll him at a barely-six-year-old level. Plus, he’s small, even compared to his peers, so being a year younger than everyone else wouldn't be easy. I really don't want to subject him to a different kind of struggle; I still remember how boring, silly, and even humiliating it felt for me to be forced to draw those repetitive lines and loops at the start of first grade when I already knew how to write😵. If I had my way, I’d wait until he was seven and just put him straight into second grade. If Ivo Lola Ribar could do it, why couldn't my kid😬?

jadegardener21 said:To my mind, that isn't a matter of punishment or reward at all, but rather a measurement of how one masters a specific subject, entirely stripped of any subjective "value" component...

You can, and indeed you must... Just take a moment to look into affirmative action and how it actually functions within developed societies.

For your information, I have spent significantly more of my life living abroad than here in the States, so please do not let my command of the American language mislead you... My mother is not an American woman, nor is my husband, and while I was educated both here and overseas, I returned to the US relatively recently—and my daughter ended up in school here somewhat unexpectedly, which explains the linguistic hurdles, since we hadn't planned on staying permanently... Had we known from the start, we would have approached things quite differently.

I am fundamentally opposed to the idea of affirmative action occurring WITHIN THE SAME SYSTEM. One classroom equals one system. Yes, I will concede that specialized classes for gifted children ought to exist, but even within those advanced tracks, there must be uniform criteria established specifically for those groups...

Furthermore, affirmative action is still, by definition, discrimination. In the contexts where it is applied within American society, I generally find it to be detrimental—and I say this as someone who IS a member of a minority group in America...

What "average" are we talking about? Where does this mythical average live, other than in the minds of incompetent statisticians? A classroom is not composed of an average; it is composed of living, breathing students, each with their own unique individual characteristics. A teacher who fails to respect that simple fact is simply unfit to work with children.

And? Suppose a student has mediocre abilities in math, excels in languages, but is absolutely terrible at music—unable to grasp notes or rhythm, for instance. Let us simplify this with a few scenarios:

Scenario A = works incredibly hard in everything
Math: B, Languages: A, Music: C
Scenario B = average effort
Math: C, Languages: A, Music: D
Scenario C = puts in no effort
Math: D, Languages: A, Music: F after retakes

Wherein lies the problem, and how is that discriminatory to you? To me, these are realistic grades reflecting the actual work behind them. The fact that people in certain circles have this irrational obsession with impossible, perfect averages is a completely separate issue... It is NOT NORMAL to me for an average child to receive straight As, nor do I find it healthy to possess such a mentality. Bs and even Cs are perfectly good grades; they shouldn't be viewed as something demoralizing in any capacity...

Anyone who demonstrates exceptional effort has earned an A. Pedagogy, alongside achievement—which is itself relative depending on whom one is being compared to—also recognizes the value of hard work and dedication.

Regarding that opening line, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that one...
As for my second point, it is my firm belief that hard work and genuine effort ought to be factored into a grade, but they shouldn't be allowed to dictate the entire outcome or cause these unrealistic swings in scoring...

Kids who are allowed to breeze through and achieve what people call "top-tier results"—which, let's face it, usually just means getting straight A's—end up becoming lazy and completely checked out when it comes to actual work. It's because they never had to break a sweat... And then, once they hit the real world where effort is actually required, they find themselves totally lost, simply because they never learned how to grind... Not demanding more from a gifted student is, quite frankly, bad teaching...

I see your point, truly, but this touches upon a much broader systemic issue that extends far beyond the scope of standard American schooling... Until we implement specialized schools or advanced placement tracks specifically designed for those students, they remain grouped with everyone else and are measured against the same general scale. We can't just penalize them with lower grades or introduce discriminatory grading metrics just because they find the material easy... In my view, doing that would be far more unfair than the solution you're proposing... 🤷

Gifted students are genuinely hungry for knowledge, at least until they get bogged down by a curriculum designed for the median, and I honestly don't think they would struggle with different grading scales if someone actually took the initiative to organize a proper system. I actually have some pretty positive memories of similar approaches from back in the old days of the mid-century era, and there was even some academic literature discussing these kinds of specialized programs a while back.

Tyler Reyes86 said:So, what you're saying is that it's entirely plausible for a child to put in massive effort and study day in and day out just to earn a high grade, only for the parent to miss it entirely? And then, through sheer lack of guidance—or perhaps active encouragement—they let the kid just coast and become totally lazy during the break?
Your scenario sounds like something straight out of an absurdist comedy.

On the contrary, grading effort is both possible and the only way that makes sense. Whether someone is working with the child at home, hiring tutors, enrolling them in extracurriculars, or if the child is being neglected and nobody cares—all of that contributes to the overall picture a teacher builds of a student. And of course, communication between parents and the school is absolutely vital.

I was just giving you an example from my own neighborhood—this kid passed with flying colors, but he couldn't even list the names of his classmates who also got straight As (which, theoretically, he should have been able to memorize), and their names were even published in the local newspaper! Isn't that just awful?

By the way, where did I say that a child puts in effort and the parent fails to notice?
What I meant was that the kid struggles with spelling but works really hard, so the teacher gives them an A even though they haven't fully mastered reading yet!

Tyler Reyes86 said:So, what you're saying is that it's entirely plausible for a child to put in massive effort and study day in and day out just to earn a high grade, only for the parent to miss it entirely? And then, through sheer lack of guidance—or perhaps active encouragement—they let the kid just coast and become totally lazy during the break?
Your scenario sounds like something straight out of an absurdist comedy.

On the contrary, grading effort is both possible and the only way that makes sense. Whether someone is working with the child at home, hiring tutors, enrolling them in extracurriculars, or if the child is being neglected and nobody cares—all of that contributes to the overall picture a teacher builds of a student. And of course, communication between parents and the school is absolutely vital.

Grading effort just doesn't make sense! Look, let's face it: some people need five minutes to memorize a poem, while others need ten days. So, what? Are we going to give an A to the person who struggled for ten days to learn a poem, instead of the one who learned it in five minutes and then spent the next ten days reading three books, finishing three science lessons, and learning 200 foreign language words?
What are we rewarding here? Someone who stays cooped up inside, avoids social interaction, and develops anxiety or psychosomatic issues just because their overly ambitious parents can't handle anything less than a perfect score?

Effort matters, obviously—you can't have success without it—but we shouldn't be handing out As just because a kid's parents can afford three private tutors, making it look like "effort" when they're actually just being coached through everything...

And honestly, it’s so hard to tell if "effort" is actually coming from the kid or somewhere else. Take homework, for instance—how are you supposed to know if the child actually solved it (which, in my opinion, deserves plenty of credit), if they just copied it from the internet, if Mom did it for them, or if they just copied a friend? Just because someone turns in homework every single day doesn't mean they understand it... or that they've actually retained what they did.

northerncobra27 said:Does any of this actually exist in practice? Or is it just something written down in a handbook?

To be honest, I’m wrestling with the same dilemma as stefy, though my experience has been a bit more complicated. My oldest son is almost certainly a gifted kid—he was picking up letters at two, reading and writing by four, and he wasn't just sounding things out; he was reading actual children's books. Before he even hit first grade, he was comfortable with three-digit numbers, basic arithmetic, and even some simple fractions. We never pushed him toward academics; we just followed his lead and tried to feed that natural hunger for learning.

On the flip side, emotionally, he was completely immature, so we never seriously considered enrolling him in school early. But since he arrived with enough knowledge to carry him through at least halfway through third grade, he just got incredibly bored. That boredom spiraled into real behavioral issues, which I suspect was the root cause of him struggling so much to develop solid study habits. When you can already calculate with three-digit numbers, being forced to mindlessly repeat addition drills with single digits for an entire semester probably feels like a punishment rather than education. And as for special treatment? It doesn't exist. Sometimes it truly feels like the sole purpose of our American school system is to force everyone into being mediocre, leading to all those other negative fallout points that Tyler Reyes86 mentioned.

Now, if those were my only concerns, I’d consider it a luxury, but I have another child. This little guy barely managed to hold a pencil during those first couple of years; all those magnetic letters and educational toys were buried deep in the basement, tucked away under Sunny's old alphabet sets and number games that we never even bothered to set up on the new computer. Sadly, none of that really helped😁. He’s four now, and you can probably guess—he’s already reading and writing words, starting to string them together into sentences, and there isn't a letter he can't spell. He isn't asking about division yet, but he’s definitely fascinated by three-digit numbers... and instead of feeling joyful about that, I honestly feel a sense of dread. I don't want to exaggerate, because I know exactly what lies ahead. Fortunately, he isn't as hyperactive as his brother, so he probably won't cause quite as much chaos, but still... I hate the idea of robbing him of a year of childhood if we were to enroll him at a barely-six-year-old level. Plus, he’s small, even compared to his peers, so being a year younger than everyone else wouldn't be easy. I really don't want to subject him to a different kind of struggle; I still remember how boring, silly, and even humiliating it felt for me to be forced to draw those repetitive lines and loops at the start of first grade when I already knew how to write😵. If I had my way, I’d wait until he was seven and just put him straight into second grade. If Ivo Lola Ribar could do it, why couldn't my kid😬?

They've been translated.

northerncobra27 said:Does any of this actually exist in practice? Or is it just something written down in a handbook?

To be honest, I’m wrestling with the same dilemma as stefy, though my experience has been a bit more complicated. My oldest son is almost certainly a gifted kid—he was picking up letters at two, reading and writing by four, and he wasn't just sounding things out; he was reading actual children's books. Before he even hit first grade, he was comfortable with three-digit numbers, basic arithmetic, and even some simple fractions. We never pushed him toward academics; we just followed his lead and tried to feed that natural hunger for learning.

On the flip side, emotionally, he was completely immature, so we never seriously considered enrolling him in school early. But since he arrived with enough knowledge to carry him through at least halfway through third grade, he just got incredibly bored. That boredom spiraled into real behavioral issues, which I suspect was the root cause of him struggling so much to develop solid study habits. When you can already calculate with three-digit numbers, being forced to mindlessly repeat addition drills with single digits for an entire semester probably feels like a punishment rather than education. And as for special treatment? It doesn't exist. Sometimes it truly feels like the sole purpose of our American school system is to force everyone into being mediocre, leading to all those other negative fallout points that Tyler Reyes86 mentioned.

Now, if those were my only concerns, I’d consider it a luxury, but I have another child. This little guy barely managed to hold a pencil during those first couple of years; all those magnetic letters and educational toys were buried deep in the basement, tucked away under Sunny's old alphabet sets and number games that we never even bothered to set up on the new computer. Sadly, none of that really helped😁. He’s four now, and you can probably guess—he’s already reading and writing words, starting to string them together into sentences, and there isn't a letter he can't spell. He isn't asking about division yet, but he’s definitely fascinated by three-digit numbers... and instead of feeling joyful about that, I honestly feel a sense of dread. I don't want to exaggerate, because I know exactly what lies ahead. Fortunately, he isn't as hyperactive as his brother, so he probably won't cause quite as much chaos, but still... I hate the idea of robbing him of a year of childhood if we were to enroll him at a barely-six-year-old level. Plus, he’s small, even compared to his peers, so being a year younger than everyone else wouldn't be easy. I really don't want to subject him to a different kind of struggle; I still remember how boring, silly, and even humiliating it felt for me to be forced to draw those repetitive lines and loops at the start of first grade when I already knew how to write😵. If I had my way, I’d wait until he was seven and just put him straight into second grade. If Ivo Lola Ribar could do it, why couldn't my kid😬?

The real issue with grade skipping is that potential gap in physical and emotional maturity—that struggle to actually fit in with older kids. It’s a tricky balance. On one hand, you have the cognitive gains, which are great, sure. But on the other, you risk opening a door to some serious emotional turbulence, especially if the child is more sensitive.
He’s definitely going to be bored out of his mind among kids his own age, which creates this real risk where he might just start checking out of school altogether because the work is simply too easy for him. Sure, he might get some extra tutoring or advanced modules in one or two subjects, but let's be honest—that supplemental stuff isn't mandatory, so it doesn't really fix the core issue of him sitting there daydreaming during regular class hours.
The only real way to handle this is through extracurriculars—think language immersion programs, music lessons, or maybe a coding club or something similar. Basically, you have to give these kids a chance to fast-track their learning outside the standard classroom setting, letting them pick things they actually care about. And, quite frankly, you should make participation in those activities contingent on them keeping up with their regular schoolwork.
Whatever you do, don't let them just idle around; when bright, gifted kids are left with nothing to do, they tend to come up with all sorts of trouble. You really need to focus on filling up their schedules, because I highly doubt the school district is going to introduce any new grading scales anytime soon.

Tyler Reyes86 said:Grading isn't just about the final number; there’s an inherent value component to it that people often overlook. We tend to lump repeat offenders together and label them as total failures, which is such a reductive way to look at things. It completely ignores whether or not they actually have a grasp on the subject matter.

Affirmative action always operates within the exact same existing framework. Without that foundation, there isn't even a thread to pull. Where exactly are these people being hired—on Mars? No, they’re being integrated into the very same workplace environments as everyone else.

That’s certainly one way to look at it, but in my opinion, plenty of people would see things quite differently.

No, look, a low grade in music isn't some reflection on the child's character or upbringing; it’s simply down to their genetic makeup. The kid isn't responsible for that, because you can't exactly go out and rewrite your DNA, right? It is fundamentally the same thing as if someone were grading you on your height or your eye color. If a student gets a poor mark for something they can't control, they might just end up with a stomachache from all the unnecessary stress—since there is absolutely nothing they can do to change the outcome.

It’s the high school and college administrations that hold this unreasonable fetish, not the parents.

In my view, it is unacceptable for a student's grade to be dictated by genetics. After all, no one can be held accountable for their biological makeup, and they certainly shouldn't face consequences because of it.

No, why would it be unfair to demand more from someone who hit the genetic jackpot through Mother Nature's roulette?

Oh, come on!
Look, I already mentioned that grading things like music, art, or PE doesn't make much sense, so I could actually agree with you there.

But we really have to face the fact that people are just different!
Not every kid has the exact same cognitive development, which shows up as slower processing speeds, memory issues, and so on, affecting how they absorb material. Or, for instance, if a child's visual-motor coordination isn't fully developed, they might struggle with handwriting. I'm not talking about severe disabilities or organic impairments here—just the most basic variations. If we mask these struggles by handing out "fake" passing grades, we might actually be causing more trouble down the road, and worst of all, crushing a child's self-esteem later on. Some kids can push through those hurdles with extra effort, but everyone has their limits.
Kids don't all learn at the same pace, but I honestly don't get why it bothers you when someone is naturally bright and doesn't seem to be "trying." They *are* putting in the work; it just means they aren't sitting in a chair for hours staring at a textbook. They grasp everything in an hour and then spend the rest of their time playing or studying something else. Honestly, those kids often end up learning way more than the ones who spend all night grinding away... and that's just the reality of it.

Susan James said:I was just giving you an example from my own neighborhood—this kid passed with flying colors, but he couldn't even list the names of his classmates who also got straight As (which, theoretically, he should have been able to memorize), and their names were even published in the local newspaper! Isn't that just awful?

By the way, where did I say that a child puts in effort and the parent fails to notice?
What I meant was that the kid struggles with spelling but works really hard, so the teacher gives them an A even though they haven't fully mastered reading yet!

Grading effort just doesn't make sense! Look, let's face it: some people need five minutes to memorize a poem, while others need ten days. So, what? Are we going to give an A to the person who struggled for ten days to learn a poem, instead of the one who learned it in five minutes and then spent the next ten days reading three books, finishing three science lessons, and learning 200 foreign language words?
What are we rewarding here? Someone who stays cooped up inside, avoids social interaction, and develops anxiety or psychosomatic issues just because their overly ambitious parents can't handle anything less than a perfect score?

Effort matters, obviously—you can't have success without it—but we shouldn't be handing out As just because a kid's parents can afford three private tutors, making it look like "effort" when they're actually just being coached through everything...

And honestly, it’s so hard to tell if "effort" is actually coming from the kid or somewhere else. Take homework, for instance—how are you supposed to know if the child actually solved it (which, in my opinion, deserves plenty of credit), if they just copied it from the internet, if Mom did it for them, or if they just copied a friend? Just because someone turns in homework every single day doesn't mean they understand it... or that they've actually retained what they did.

At the age when children are learning to read, descriptive feedback would be much more appropriate than letter grades. As for why strict grading in lower elementary school isn't advisable—you already covered that in your earlier posts, and I really don't want to repeat myself. Generally speaking, developmental psychologists say it's a bad idea. So, feel free to go out and conduct some new scientific studies to prove me wrong.

Susan James said:I was just giving you an example from my own neighborhood—this kid passed with flying colors, but he couldn't even list the names of his classmates who also got straight As (which, theoretically, he should have been able to memorize), and their names were even published in the local newspaper! Isn't that just awful?

By the way, where did I say that a child puts in effort and the parent fails to notice?
What I meant was that the kid struggles with spelling but works really hard, so the teacher gives them an A even though they haven't fully mastered reading yet!

Grading effort just doesn't make sense! Look, let's face it: some people need five minutes to memorize a poem, while others need ten days. So, what? Are we going to give an A to the person who struggled for ten days to learn a poem, instead of the one who learned it in five minutes and then spent the next ten days reading three books, finishing three science lessons, and learning 200 foreign language words?
What are we rewarding here? Someone who stays cooped up inside, avoids social interaction, and develops anxiety or psychosomatic issues just because their overly ambitious parents can't handle anything less than a perfect score?

Effort matters, obviously—you can't have success without it—but we shouldn't be handing out As just because a kid's parents can afford three private tutors, making it look like "effort" when they're actually just being coached through everything...

And honestly, it’s so hard to tell if "effort" is actually coming from the kid or somewhere else. Take homework, for instance—how are you supposed to know if the child actually solved it (which, in my opinion, deserves plenty of credit), if they just copied it from the internet, if Mom did it for them, or if they just copied a friend? Just because someone turns in homework every single day doesn't mean they understand it... or that they've actually retained what they did.

No, instead we’re going to apply the exact same grading criteria to kids who are developmentally at a seven-year-old level and those who are functioning like fifteen-year-olds. Let's just throw kids of all ages into the same classroom and judge them by the same standards; that way, first graders can get used to failing, which is just great for their development.
Besides, rote memorization isn't the only cognitive factor at play, and even if it were, some people take longer to learn but perhaps retain information more deeply and reliably. Some kids can easily cram material they don't understand at all—and will never actually grasp—only to forget it all by next week. Human potential isn't as simplistic as you seem to think. That is precisely why pedagogy shouldn't be treated as a hobby that any random person can dabble in.

Susan James said:I was just giving you an example from my own neighborhood—this kid passed with flying colors, but he couldn't even list the names of his classmates who also got straight As (which, theoretically, he should have been able to memorize), and their names were even published in the local newspaper! Isn't that just awful?

By the way, where did I say that a child puts in effort and the parent fails to notice?
What I meant was that the kid struggles with spelling but works really hard, so the teacher gives them an A even though they haven't fully mastered reading yet!

Grading effort just doesn't make sense! Look, let's face it: some people need five minutes to memorize a poem, while others need ten days. So, what? Are we going to give an A to the person who struggled for ten days to learn a poem, instead of the one who learned it in five minutes and then spent the next ten days reading three books, finishing three science lessons, and learning 200 foreign language words?
What are we rewarding here? Someone who stays cooped up inside, avoids social interaction, and develops anxiety or psychosomatic issues just because their overly ambitious parents can't handle anything less than a perfect score?

Effort matters, obviously—you can't have success without it—but we shouldn't be handing out As just because a kid's parents can afford three private tutors, making it look like "effort" when they're actually just being coached through everything...

And honestly, it’s so hard to tell if "effort" is actually coming from the kid or somewhere else. Take homework, for instance—how are you supposed to know if the child actually solved it (which, in my opinion, deserves plenty of credit), if they just copied it from the internet, if Mom did it for them, or if they just copied a friend? Just because someone turns in homework every single day doesn't mean they understand it... or that they've actually retained what they did.

Who would intentionally act in a way that drives their own child toward illness? What are you even talking about? Some people are naturally introverted, others are extroverted, and that psychological makeup dictates whether they are sociable or prefer solitude. You can't force an introvert to be social just because you think that's how it should be. And you can't force the opposite either. Do a little research.

Susan James said:I was just giving you an example from my own neighborhood—this kid passed with flying colors, but he couldn't even list the names of his classmates who also got straight As (which, theoretically, he should have been able to memorize), and their names were even published in the local newspaper! Isn't that just awful?

By the way, where did I say that a child puts in effort and the parent fails to notice?
What I meant was that the kid struggles with spelling but works really hard, so the teacher gives them an A even though they haven't fully mastered reading yet!

Grading effort just doesn't make sense! Look, let's face it: some people need five minutes to memorize a poem, while others need ten days. So, what? Are we going to give an A to the person who struggled for ten days to learn a poem, instead of the one who learned it in five minutes and then spent the next ten days reading three books, finishing three science lessons, and learning 200 foreign language words?
What are we rewarding here? Someone who stays cooped up inside, avoids social interaction, and develops anxiety or psychosomatic issues just because their overly ambitious parents can't handle anything less than a perfect score?

Effort matters, obviously—you can't have success without it—but we shouldn't be handing out As just because a kid's parents can afford three private tutors, making it look like "effort" when they're actually just being coached through everything...

And honestly, it’s so hard to tell if "effort" is actually coming from the kid or somewhere else. Take homework, for instance—how are you supposed to know if the child actually solved it (which, in my opinion, deserves plenty of credit), if they just copied it from the internet, if Mom did it for them, or if they just copied a friend? Just because someone turns in homework every single day doesn't mean they understand it... or that they've actually retained what they did.

So, what follows? Should we just lower the grades for everyone who ever had a tutor? Or better yet, should we go around rescinding diplomas from people who finished school years ago?

Susan James said:I was just giving you an example from my own neighborhood—this kid passed with flying colors, but he couldn't even list the names of his classmates who also got straight As (which, theoretically, he should have been able to memorize), and their names were even published in the local newspaper! Isn't that just awful?

By the way, where did I say that a child puts in effort and the parent fails to notice?
What I meant was that the kid struggles with spelling but works really hard, so the teacher gives them an A even though they haven't fully mastered reading yet!

Grading effort just doesn't make sense! Look, let's face it: some people need five minutes to memorize a poem, while others need ten days. So, what? Are we going to give an A to the person who struggled for ten days to learn a poem, instead of the one who learned it in five minutes and then spent the next ten days reading three books, finishing three science lessons, and learning 200 foreign language words?
What are we rewarding here? Someone who stays cooped up inside, avoids social interaction, and develops anxiety or psychosomatic issues just because their overly ambitious parents can't handle anything less than a perfect score?

Effort matters, obviously—you can't have success without it—but we shouldn't be handing out As just because a kid's parents can afford three private tutors, making it look like "effort" when they're actually just being coached through everything...

And honestly, it’s so hard to tell if "effort" is actually coming from the kid or somewhere else. Take homework, for instance—how are you supposed to know if the child actually solved it (which, in my opinion, deserves plenty of credit), if they just copied it from the internet, if Mom did it for them, or if they just copied a friend? Just because someone turns in homework every single day doesn't mean they understand it... or that they've actually retained what they did.

Should we just abolish homework then? Honestly, we might as well just shut down the schools entirely. Instead, let's just test kids once a year to see what they can do and hand out grades based on that. I mean, those who are naturally gifted will figure out whatever they need to know on their own anyway.

Susan James said:Oh, come on!
Look, I already mentioned that grading things like music, art, or PE doesn't make much sense, so I could actually agree with you there.

But we really have to face the fact that people are just different!
Not every kid has the exact same cognitive development, which shows up as slower processing speeds, memory issues, and so on, affecting how they absorb material. Or, for instance, if a child's visual-motor coordination isn't fully developed, they might struggle with handwriting. I'm not talking about severe disabilities or organic impairments here—just the most basic variations. If we mask these struggles by handing out "fake" passing grades, we might actually be causing more trouble down the road, and worst of all, crushing a child's self-esteem later on. Some kids can push through those hurdles with extra effort, but everyone has their limits.
Kids don't all learn at the same pace, but I honestly don't get why it bothers you when someone is naturally bright and doesn't seem to be "trying." They *are* putting in the work; it just means they aren't sitting in a chair for hours staring at a textbook. They grasp everything in an hour and then spend the rest of their time playing or studying something else. Honestly, those kids often end up learning way more than the ones who spend all night grinding away... and that's just the reality of it.

But why? Is it all just down to innate talent—or, more accurately, our inherent lack thereof? Some people are simply born with a natural knack for mathematics, while others possess an effortless command of languages. Then, of course, there are those of us burdened with natural anti-talents.

I suppose I should probably start by acknowledging that my thoughts on this particular subject have been somewhat scattered lately—life gets in the way, doesn't it? But regarding the rhino... well, there is something quite singular about them, isn't there? One can't help but admire such a massive, unstoppable presence. It makes one think about the sheer weight of existence. Anyway, moving along! kaže:
Come on, just face the facts—people aren't all cut from the same cloth!
It’s a simple truth that not all children develop cognitive abilities at the exact same pace. This often manifests as slower processing speeds, memory lapses, and general struggles when it comes to absorbing new material in the classroom. Then there’s the issue of visual-motor coordination—if that isn't fully developed, you see kids hitting massive roadblocks just trying to master handwriting. Now, let me be clear: I am not talking about intellectual disabilities or organic neurological disorders here. I’m referring to those everyday developmental variations that fall within the normal spectrum of human diversity. The real danger lies in how we handle these differences. If we try to mask these gaps by handing out "participation trophies" or inflated grades just to make things look good on paper, we aren't actually helping. We're just setting a trap. By masking a struggle with false praise, we risk creating even deeper issues down the road—and worst of all, we end up shattering a child's self-esteem once they finally hit a wall they can't climb. Sure, some kids can compensate for these hurdles through sheer grit and extra effort, but even the most determined student can only push themselves so far before they burn out.
Kids don't absorb material at the same pace, you know? But honestly, I don't quite grasp why it bothers you so much when someone is just naturally bright and doesn't seem to be "trying." He *is* putting in the effort—it’s just that his version of hard work doesn't involve sitting in a chair for hours on end. Instead, he masters everything during class time, and then spends his time at home playing or focusing on other interests. If we're being real, that kid actually ends up learning more than the one who spends all night grinding away... and that's just the way it is.

You’re talking pure nonsense. And that whole "up to a certain point" argument? Well, thank goodness we aren't leaving those boundaries up to the people who clearly found their limits a long, long time ago.

Tyler Reyes86 said:

I suppose I should begin by acknowledging that my previous observations regarding the rhinoceros have been somewhat... lacking in depth. It is quite a heavy topic, isn't it? One moment you are contemplating the sheer mass of such a creature, and the next, you find yourself wondering about the structural integrity of its hide. Truly fascinating! It reminds me of those discussions we had last week—you know, the ones where Tyler Reyes86 was insisting on the importance of biological classification? He’s always so precise, isn't he? And then there was silverpuma542, who I believe mentioned something about conservation efforts in the Midwest. Such important work! Anyway, back to the beast itself. There is something almost dignified about a rhino, despite its somewhat cumbersome gait. It moves with a certain... purpose. Or perhaps just momentum? It's hard to say. Regardless, I find myself increasingly preoccupied with the sheer scale of them. It really puts our little human concerns into perspective, don't you think? Just a massive, unstoppable force of nature roaming through the plains. Simply marvelous! kaže:
Insufficient.
I suppose one could argue that two is quite sufficient.
3 - solid.
4. Really quite excellent.
5-excellent!

I truly feel a sense of regret regarding how we grade our children using nothing but cold, hard numbers. When you hand a student an F, you aren't just marking a paper; you are sending a clear message that they haven't mastered the material yet—and frankly, that is exactly what they need to hear. It’s a reality check. However, I find it utterly baffling why a C is treated like some sort of academic catastrophe. To me, a C signifies that the child actually grasped the curriculum. It means they've got the fundamentals down. Anything above that should simply be seen as a sign that more effort is required to reach the next level.

If we’re going to claim that a C is a terrible grade, then our entire American school system deserves the blame. It’s a bit of a rigged game, isn't it? If you graduate elementary school with nothing but average marks, your options basically vanish. You’re looking at being funneled straight into three-year vocational programs or trade schools, which pretty much slams the door on any hopes of pursuing higher education later on. Most parents just want their kids to have every possible advantage, so naturally, they see a mediocre grade as a massive roadblock to future success. It's all about keeping those doors open, right?

Strict grading policies in the early years of Elementary School just don't align with what we know about developmental psychology. Kids at that age are incredibly emotionally fragile; it’s far too easy to instill a deep-seated belief that they simply aren't capable. When they face a constant barrage of low grades, it sends a devastating message: that they are somehow less valuable than their peers. The mechanism for critical thinking isn't even fully developed yet. A child isn't quite able to step back, analyze the situation, and separate their actual effort from their innate abilities. So, when they encounter failure, they tend to internalize it, thinking they are just fundamentally flawed—which makes them feel like there's no point in even trying. That is exactly how you breed a lifelong aversion to school and learning.

It is something that should genuinely give any parent pause: the sheer lack of specialized knowledge among teachers regarding areas they really ought to master if they are working professionally with children. It’s quite concerning, really. Unfortunately, it seems many educators aren't just unfamiliar with developmental psychology, but they seem to lack a fundamental grasp of pedagogy altogether.
The idea that parents are somehow obligated to teach their children "how to learn" feels incredibly unprofessional—frankly, it’s just plain rude.
That is precisely where the teaching staff should be making their most critical impact. It isn't just about delivering content; it’s about equipping students with actual methods for mastering material and retaining information effectively. We need to be teaching them the psychological mechanisms that allow a student to find their own internal drive and stay motivated toward achieving their goals.
On the flip side, I honestly don't think elementary school is even necessary for those lower grades. Let’s be real—the curriculum they cover during that stage is stuff any parent who actually finished middle school already knows by heart, so technically, you could just pass it along to your kid yourself. Of course, not every parent happens to be a trained pedagogue or a child psychologist, so we might lack the specialized tools to teach them actual study strategies. That responsibility should fall squarely on the teachers. Instead, many of them just dump a mountain of information on the kids and basically tell them to go sit at the kitchen table and figure it out themselves. A teacher's job should be to structure the material so that most of it sticks during class time, leaving nothing for home except a quick review. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of educators aren't up to the task, and instead of taking accountability, they just point the finger at the parents and the students for their own shortcomings.

It seems the profound ignorance of our educators has once again made its unwelcome appearance on this thread. I’ve noticed several users making remarks regarding the cognitive abilities—or lack thereof—of certain students. In my view, innate talents, natural aptitudes, or even inherent shortcomings ought to have absolutely no bearing on a student's grade. If we allow that to happen, we aren't actually grading academic performance; we are merely grading genetic predisposition. To judge a person based on their biological data is, by its very definition, nothing short of pure racism.

If you find yourself with a student who is truly gifted—I mean, someone who is operating on a completely different level than their peers—then skipping a grade should be on the table. If that isn't an option, then we have a moral obligation to raise the bar for them. It’s just common sense, really. If we don't, that child is going to lose all motivation to actually engage with the material, and frankly, it creates this weird tension in the classroom. You'll have the other kids feeling frustrated because they see someone succeeding effortlessly due to nothing more than pure genetic luck, without having to put in the grind. It’s a lose-lose situation if we don't adjust our expectations.
We really need to see this kind of adaptability in our schools when working with students who have learning disabilities. It’s essential that we implement individualized education programs (IEPs) to meet them where they are. In my view, grading should be based on the actual effort a student puts in rather than some arbitrary standard. A child's biological makeup—something they have absolutely no control over and certainly can't change—should never play a role in their academic evaluation. It just wouldn't be fair.
Essentially, we need to unlearn this vulgar biological determinism—this whole obsession with racism and those supposed "natural" hierarchies where some people are inherently stronger or weaker than others. We aren't living in the jungle, after all, so those kinds of distinctions simply shouldn't matter anymore.

For the most part, barring a few honorable exceptions, our educators are remarkably uninformed about their own field. If we were being strictly honest and gave them an overall grade for their performance, they would barely scrape by with a D. If they even managed that.

But what's your actual take here?
On one hand, you're arguing that we shouldn't judge kids based on their genetic predispositions, but then you turn around and say we *must* judge them that way—because how else are you supposed to decide who deserves to have "higher expectations" placed on them?
If judging someone based on their DNA is so problematic, why is it okay to use those exact same traits to justify demanding more from some kids than others?!

Tyler Reyes86 said:They've been translated.

The real issue with grade skipping is that potential gap in physical and emotional maturity—that struggle to actually fit in with older kids. It’s a tricky balance. On one hand, you have the cognitive gains, which are great, sure. But on the other, you risk opening a door to some serious emotional turbulence, especially if the child is more sensitive.
He’s definitely going to be bored out of his mind among kids his own age, which creates this real risk where he might just start checking out of school altogether because the work is simply too easy for him. Sure, he might get some extra tutoring or advanced modules in one or two subjects, but let's be honest—that supplemental stuff isn't mandatory, so it doesn't really fix the core issue of him sitting there daydreaming during regular class hours.
The only real way to handle this is through extracurriculars—think language immersion programs, music lessons, or maybe a coding club or something similar. Basically, you have to give these kids a chance to fast-track their learning outside the standard classroom setting, letting them pick things they actually care about. And, quite frankly, you should make participation in those activities contingent on them keeping up with their regular schoolwork.
Whatever you do, don't let them just idle around; when bright, gifted kids are left with nothing to do, they tend to come up with all sorts of trouble. You really need to focus on filling up their schedules, because I highly doubt the school district is going to introduce any new grading scales anytime soon.

Man, if I’d had the chance to sit down and actually digest your posts from a few years back, I think I would have found it a whole lot easier to navigate everything I've been going through lately. It’s funny how that works, isn't it? You spend all this time struggling through the fog, just trying to find your footing, and then you realize there was already a roadmap laid out right in front of you if only you'd known where to look. It’s like driving through a heavy storm in the Midwest without any headlights, only to realize later that someone had already left a trail of bright markers along the road to guide you home. If I could go back and give my younger self those insights, I truly believe the weight of it all wouldn't have felt quite so heavy. 😉

So, I was sitting here thinking about how much things change once you actually get into the thick of the school year, and it got me wondering—is that extra help or those supplemental tutoring sessions something they organize at every single school, or is it more of a hit-or-miss thing depending on where you live? It feels like in some districts, the support systems are just built right into the schedule, almost like how a safety net is woven into a hammock, whereas in other places, you’re basically left to fend for yourself unless you can afford a private tutor from a big agency. I remember back in high school, it felt like one day the teachers would be all over you with extra study guides, and the next, it was just "good luck out there." It makes you wonder if the availability of that kind of academic cushion really depends on the specific school board's budget or if it's just a matter of how proactive the individual faculty members are being. Does anyone else feel like it varies wildly from one town to the next? 🤔 I find myself constantly scratching my head when it comes to extracurricular activities—you know, those various clubs and after-school programs where you can never quite tell which one is which or what they actually focus on—and it always leads me back to that same lingering question of whether the school district is actually obligated to provide them or if it's just an extra something they offer if they feel like it.

Susan James said:Oh, come on!
Look, I already mentioned that grading things like music, art, or PE doesn't make much sense, so I could actually agree with you there.

But we really have to face the fact that people are just different!
Not every kid has the exact same cognitive development, which shows up as slower processing speeds, memory issues, and so on, affecting how they absorb material. Or, for instance, if a child's visual-motor coordination isn't fully developed, they might struggle with handwriting. I'm not talking about severe disabilities or organic impairments here—just the most basic variations. If we mask these struggles by handing out "fake" passing grades, we might actually be causing more trouble down the road, and worst of all, crushing a child's self-esteem later on. Some kids can push through those hurdles with extra effort, but everyone has their limits.
Kids don't all learn at the same pace, but I honestly don't get why it bothers you when someone is naturally bright and doesn't seem to be "trying." They *are* putting in the work; it just means they aren't sitting in a chair for hours staring at a textbook. They grasp everything in an hour and then spend the rest of their time playing or studying something else. Honestly, those kids often end up learning way more than the ones who spend all night grinding away... and that's just the reality of it.

Hmm. Just try to picture a kid who is basically a math prodigy but isn't much of an athlete, versus another student who is a natural-born athlete but just doesn't have a mathematical bone in their body. Based on your logic, the first kid would be entitled to a great grade in gym class even though they haven't earned it, while the second one wouldn't get that same kind of leeway when it comes to math. It doesn't seem particularly fair to that second student, does it?

Tyler Reyes86 said:So, what you're saying is that it's entirely plausible for a child to put in massive effort and study day in and day out just to earn a high grade, only for the parent to miss it entirely? And then, through sheer lack of guidance—or perhaps active encouragement—they let the kid just coast and become totally lazy during the break?
Your scenario sounds like something straight out of an absurdist comedy.

On the contrary, grading effort is both possible and the only way that makes sense. Whether someone is working with the child at home, hiring tutors, enrolling them in extracurriculars, or if the child is being neglected and nobody cares—all of that contributes to the overall picture a teacher builds of a student. And of course, communication between parents and the school is absolutely vital.

Yeah, sure.
If a kid has a natural gift for math but lacks any coordination or drive, there’s no point in him trying to get into MIT or Caltech. Why should he lean on his DNA just to become some big shot in a field he’s naturally wired for? Instead, he might just choose to put in effort, burn himself out completely, and end up studying kinesiology at a local state school! Maybe he'll win an "Employee of the Month" award for his struggle, but that's about it.