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Are schools killing critical thinking?

Started by Donna Campbell6 · · 👁 5 views · 77 replies

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Participants Donna Campbell6Olivia Evans8steelridge58Sean Cruzsilvergardener93Mark Torres14Edward Flores4restlessridge36jademarlin26Zachary Turner6Joseph Watson3mistyscout2dustyskipper3Peter Phillips32Nathan Perez5placidrangerhiddenhound3Gary James88Joshua Hernandez9Richard Allenredtinker36Brandon Brooks11slycobra61
Donna Campbell6 Donna Campbell6 Active MemberOP
62 messages
joined Jan 2007
#1 ·
Every kind of school out there basically works the same way—they just hand students these pre-packaged bundles of info, like it's some finished product from a factory. It’s all based on what we think we know right now in a specific field, which is usually already a little bit outdated, let's be real.
But honestly? It feels like schools are actually working against what knowledge is supposed to be. Real knowledge isn't something you can just "freeze" in place like that. Its whole vibe is to constantly question everything... and even to doubt itself. Or, well... more like seeing itself as just a temporary stepping stone toward something better and deeper down the road.
Instead, schools treat knowledge like it's set in stone, serving it up to students as this absolute truth you're just supposed to swallow whole without question. So where does that leave critical thinking? Nowhere, really.
I mean, it's hard to imagine a school functioning any other way. But doesn't that make them almost anti-scientific? They take something inherently dynamic and turn it into something totally static. And by teaching like that... aren't they just making people less sharp? What do you guys think?
Olivia Evans8 Olivia Evans8 Active Member
80 messages
joined Sep 2008
#2 ·
The real issue is that school basically acts like a mandatory knowledge dump that everyone’s forced to swallow. Sure, actually *understanding* things is the goal, but if you're slammed for time, just grinding through memorization is "good enough." There's zero room left for actual deep thinking or building up your intellect. It gets pushed aside as this "nice-to-have" thing rather than a necessity...

If we’re being idealists about it, education should be a lifelong journey where you're constantly being nudged in the right direction starting from elementary school (or even earlier!) with all this extra layers of knowledge. Like, kids in first grade should already be getting a taste of logic and critical thinking—developing those essential life skills that aren't part of the standard curriculum. Everyone loves to bash "philosophers" these days, but they totally miss the point that healthy, critical thinking about everything... is actually healthy!

So, school isn't necessarily making people stupid because there's nothing there to make them dumb... it just fails to give them enough to work with.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#3 ·
Olivia Evans8 said:The real issue is that school basically acts like a mandatory knowledge dump that everyone’s forced to swallow. Sure, actually *understanding* things is the goal, but if you're slammed for time, just grinding through memorization is "good enough." There's zero room left for actual deep thinking or building up your intellect. It gets pushed aside as this "nice-to-have" thing rather than a necessity...

If we’re being idealists about it, education should be a lifelong journey where you're constantly being nudged in the right direction starting from elementary school (or even earlier!) with all this extra layers of knowledge. Like, kids in first grade should already be getting a taste of logic and critical thinking—developing those essential life skills that aren't part of the standard curriculum. Everyone loves to bash "philosophers" these days, but they totally miss the point that healthy, critical thinking about everything... is actually healthy!

So, school isn't necessarily making people stupid because there's nothing there to make them dumb... it just fails to give them enough to work with.

Honestly, I think we should focus more on teaching logic to elementary schoolers—but specifically *their* logic! We need to nurture that natural curiosity they have and use it as a bridge to introduce them to the actual world of knowledge. In that sense, I think the "step-by-step" programs some of our local public schools implement through fourth grade are actually quite wonderful for developing various skills, though the real headache starts when they move up because the curriculum stops supporting that creative, hands-on approach. It can make it pretty tough for kids to adjust to the rigid, traditional way things are done later on, but hey, I suppose that’s still better than overwhelming them with heavy-duty requirements that are way too advanced for their age right out of the gate.
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#4 ·
steelridge58 said:Honestly, I think we should focus more on teaching logic to elementary schoolers—but specifically *their* logic! We need to nurture that natural curiosity they have and use it as a bridge to introduce them to the actual world of knowledge. In that sense, I think the "step-by-step" programs some of our local public schools implement through fourth grade are actually quite wonderful for developing various skills, though the real headache starts when they move up because the curriculum stops supporting that creative, hands-on approach. It can make it pretty tough for kids to adjust to the rigid, traditional way things are done later on, but hey, I suppose that’s still better than overwhelming them with heavy-duty requirements that are way too advanced for their age right out of the gate.

I’m with you on this. I’ve been navigating the school system with my nine-year-old daughter—she’s part of the first cohort under the current setup—and frankly, I am not impressed with how they handle the students. For the first two grades, they used the "Step by Step" method, but once third grade hit, they just dumped a mountain of raw data on them. It was a nightmare for everyone; parents and teachers alike were drowning trying to keep up with the massive syllabus. The kids were just lost.
In my view, the American school system generally overwhelms children with a deluge of useless facts. The real culprits are the bloated curricula and textbook authors who seem incapable of writing material that is actually age-appropriate.
At the end of the day, school is just the starting line; real learning is a lifelong pursuit. 🙂

EDIT: There is already an existing thread where we discussed the distinction between schooling and true education:

Education is…
silvergardener93 silvergardener93 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2009
#5 ·
School doesn't exist to make people stupid; it’s just there to give you the facts as they stand right now. Nobody in an American classroom tells you that anything is set in stone or beyond questioning.

So, what, you think we should be re-proving every single thing we learn three times a year, forever?! 😕
Mark Torres14 Mark Torres14 Regular
279 messages
joined Nov 2008
#6 ·
Olivia Evans8 said:The real issue is that school basically acts like a mandatory knowledge dump that everyone’s forced to swallow. Sure, actually *understanding* things is the goal, but if you're slammed for time, just grinding through memorization is "good enough." There's zero room left for actual deep thinking or building up your intellect. It gets pushed aside as this "nice-to-have" thing rather than a necessity...

If we’re being idealists about it, education should be a lifelong journey where you're constantly being nudged in the right direction starting from elementary school (or even earlier!) with all this extra layers of knowledge. Like, kids in first grade should already be getting a taste of logic and critical thinking—developing those essential life skills that aren't part of the standard curriculum. Everyone loves to bash "philosophers" these days, but they totally miss the point that healthy, critical thinking about everything... is actually healthy!

So, school isn't necessarily making people stupid because there's nothing there to make them dumb... it just fails to give them enough to work with.

Back when I started first grade in 1966, we spent the entire year just learning uppercase and lowercase letters. We’d write two or three pages of nothing but the letter B—sometimes even as punishment. We used this little dictionary made of loose slips of paper with letters on them that we had to piece together. Counting was basic, mostly done through games. Twice a week, we’d head out to the local park during school hours and play until we dropped. Once a week, our teacher would read us a book (The Very Hungry Caterpillar, then full books from the Dr. Seuss collection... etc.). That was the quietest we ever were; we lived for those reading sessions. Our reader was called "You Are My Sunshine" and it was almost entirely poems for kids. Stuff like "All Birds in the Forest" or "Antuntun".
We had to wear house shoes in the classroom, and if you misbehaved? You got the switch across your palms or made you kneel in the corner facing the wall. If you ran to your parents about it, they’d just beat you again for complaining. I mean, who dares cross a teacher? You didn't need to know how to read, write, or count just to start first grade.

Having three kids of my own, I've sat through three more "first grades," and honestly, they look way harder than mine was. Kids today have to know how to count, write, and read, all while learning foreign languages and juggling sailing, swimming, ballet, basketball, or music lessons. A seven-year-old comes home and still has two or three hours of homework. And at every parent-teacher conference I've attended over twenty years, the teachers hammer it in: you need to work with your kid for at least two hours a day. Multiply that by three kids—that's six hours of tutoring a day I'm supposed to be doing.

Funny thing is, nobody ever worked with me or showed me the ropes. Extra help was like a banana—reserved for the rich kids or the ones who couldn't grasp the material no matter how hard they tried.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#7 ·
Sean Cruz said:I’m with you on this. I’ve been navigating the school system with my nine-year-old daughter—she’s part of the first cohort under the current setup—and frankly, I am not impressed with how they handle the students. For the first two grades, they used the "Step by Step" method, but once third grade hit, they just dumped a mountain of raw data on them. It was a nightmare for everyone; parents and teachers alike were drowning trying to keep up with the massive syllabus. The kids were just lost.
In my view, the American school system generally overwhelms children with a deluge of useless facts. The real culprits are the bloated curricula and textbook authors who seem incapable of writing material that is actually age-appropriate.
At the end of the day, school is just the starting line; real learning is a lifelong pursuit. 🙂

EDIT: There is already an existing thread where we discussed the distinction between schooling and true education:

Education is…

That bolded part hits the nail on the head! Some of these textbooks are an absolute disaster, truly. I find myself wondering how on earth they even pass the approval process? It’s not like there isn't a huge pool of talented writers out there who could easily craft something appropriate for young students, but somehow it always seems like the people who lack that basic understanding are the ones getting the licenses to write them—though I'm not entirely sure how the whole selection process works, to be honest....
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 Regular
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#8 ·
Publishers basically send out these sales reps to woo teachers—they drop off little gifts, sponsor all these weekend trips... it’s a whole production. And then, once they’ve built that rapport, the teachers are the ones actually deciding which textbooks our kids end up using. 😉
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#9 ·
steelridge58 said:That bolded part hits the nail on the head! Some of these textbooks are an absolute disaster, truly. I find myself wondering how on earth they even pass the approval process? It’s not like there isn't a huge pool of talented writers out there who could easily craft something appropriate for young students, but somehow it always seems like the people who lack that basic understanding are the ones getting the licenses to write them—though I'm not entirely sure how the whole selection process works, to be honest....

I suppose it comes down to political connections, just like everything else in this country. All I know is that parents are dealing with a massive headache. And don't even get me started on the terrible reading lists—or the total lack thereof—while so many of my colleagues sit around waiting for a spot to open up at the local school district.🙄
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#10 ·
Edward Flores4 said:Publishers basically send out these sales reps to woo teachers—they drop off little gifts, sponsor all these weekend trips... it’s a whole production. And then, once they’ve built that rapport, the teachers are the ones actually deciding which textbooks our kids end up using. 😉

Honestly, I kind of suspected there was some kind of shady setup going on behind the scenes, though I had originally assumed the whole thing was being managed directly by the Department of Education, so I was just sitting here wondering why teachers don't have more of a say in selecting higher-quality materials for their own classrooms.
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#11 ·
steelridge58 said:Honestly, I kind of suspected there was some kind of shady setup going on behind the scenes, though I had originally assumed the whole thing was being managed directly by the Department of Education, so I was just sitting here wondering why teachers don't have more of a say in selecting higher-quality materials for their own classrooms.

I can't speak to how things work in America, but here in the States, teachers aren't even consulted. It’s not like they want to teach from subpar materials, either. From what I can tell, choosing textbooks around here is strictly a matter of political affiliation. Now, that's separate from the fact that the shaman completely disrespects the teaching profession.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#12 ·
Sean Cruz said:I suppose it comes down to political connections, just like everything else in this country. All I know is that parents are dealing with a massive headache. And don't even get me started on the terrible reading lists—or the total lack thereof—while so many of my colleagues sit around waiting for a spot to open up at the local school district.🙄

Anyway, no matter which slice of society you look at, it feels like you could stick your finger right into the rot (at least here in the States, where you and I are living). Of course, the education system is just a reflection of that larger decay within our country. And they always say the kids are the ones who end up inheriting the mess...
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#13 ·
steelridge58 said:Anyway, no matter which slice of society you look at, it feels like you could stick your finger right into the rot (at least here in the States, where you and I are living). Of course, the education system is just a reflection of that larger decay within our country. And they always say the kids are the ones who end up inheriting the mess...

I feel like I’m becoming a bigger pessimist with every passing year. Honestly, I’m even losing the will to engage in these debates anymore; I used to be so passionate and ready to fight for my side in discussions like this, but that fire just isn't there lately.
What worries me most right now is this whole situation with Bolden—and honestly, what it means for our kids.
steelridge58 steelridge58 Regular
397 messages
joined Mar 2008
#14 ·
Sean Cruz said:I can't speak to how things work in America, but here in the States, teachers aren't even consulted. It’s not like they want to teach from subpar materials, either. From what I can tell, choosing textbooks around here is strictly a matter of political affiliation. Now, that's separate from the fact that the shaman completely disrespects the teaching profession.

That wasn't even what he was getting at, honestly... 🙂 and I truly don't think that was his intention, but rather more of a speculation regarding my own question, especially since I wasn't entirely sure whether it's the Department of Education or the individual teachers who actually call the shots on textbook selection. But still, if it's the government or some other authority making those calls and the books end up being terrible, shouldn't the teachers be the ones trying to push for better options?

Sean Cruz said:I feel like I’m becoming a bigger pessimist with every passing year. Honestly, I’m even losing the will to engage in these debates anymore; I used to be so passionate and ready to fight for my side in discussions like this, but that fire just isn't there lately.
What worries me most right now is this whole situation with Bolden—and honestly, what it means for our kids.

Well, it feels like we're already seeing the future manifest in the present... and it doesn't look particularly bright, even though it's precisely because of this future that we ought to be making changes.
restlessridge36 restlessridge36 Member
24 messages
joined May 2007
#15 ·
steelridge58 said:That wasn't even what he was getting at, honestly... 🙂 and I truly don't think that was his intention, but rather more of a speculation regarding my own question, especially since I wasn't entirely sure whether it's the Department of Education or the individual teachers who actually call the shots on textbook selection. But still, if it's the government or some other authority making those calls and the books end up being terrible, shouldn't the teachers be the ones trying to push for better options?

Well, it feels like we're already seeing the future manifest in the present... and it doesn't look particularly bright, even though it's precisely because of this future that we ought to be making changes.

In the States, the Department of Education calls the shots. They coordinate with the authors, and decisions are largely driven by sales figures. If an author is generous enough, their book stays in print for the following year.
I once knew an author who spent years splitting royalties with a guy from the Department of Education who just kept getting greedier over time.

As I see it, educational consultants and teachers have zero influence over textbook selection. Unless, of course, they get a slice of the pie too.

edit: These books are written by professors and subject matter experts, just so no one assumes any random person can bribe a cabinet official.
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#16 ·
steelridge58 said:That wasn't even what he was getting at, honestly... 🙂 and I truly don't think that was his intention, but rather more of a speculation regarding my own question, especially since I wasn't entirely sure whether it's the Department of Education or the individual teachers who actually call the shots on textbook selection. But still, if it's the government or some other authority making those calls and the books end up being terrible, shouldn't the teachers be the ones trying to push for better options?

Well, it feels like we're already seeing the future manifest in the present... and it doesn't look particularly bright, even though it's precisely because of this future that we ought to be making changes.

School principals are mostly micromanaged by the Department of Education, which trickles down to the teachers. That’s just how it works here, according to sources I trust. Essentially, if you want to keep your job, be grateful you have a paycheck, stay quiet, and get to work. That’s the reality. Even when specialized schools receive donations, the Department decides how to distribute those funds at their own discretion. I’m not sure if you remember that case involving the school for the visually impaired. The principal received a donation from a Frenchwoman specifically intended to buy a van for student transport. He fought for over a year to access those funds, only for the Department to decide they didn't actually need a van and refused to release the money. Eventually, the woman requested her money back since it wouldn't be used for its intended purpose. They bought the van in the end, but the principal lost his job. You see similar patterns in almost every other school.

Don't worry, I won't go picking a fight with the shaman. 🤣

Well, the future is already manifesting in our "now"... and it isn't looking pretty. It's something we should be changing for the sake of what's to come.

My father shared a sobering thought with me recently: my generation might very well be the last one before humanity fades out. The little "robots" following us will largely be indoctrinated with various ideologies, and through them, true humanity will perish. It's not far from the truth—we can see it right now in our own backyard through things like religious segregation in public schools and such. I won't dwell on the darkest examples from our recent history...
jademarlin26 jademarlin26 Active Member
158 messages
joined Sep 2008
#17 ·
restlessridge36 said:In the States, the Department of Education calls the shots. They coordinate with the authors, and decisions are largely driven by sales figures. If an author is generous enough, their book stays in print for the following year.
I once knew an author who spent years splitting royalties with a guy from the Department of Education who just kept getting greedier over time.

As I see it, educational consultants and teachers have zero influence over textbook selection. Unless, of course, they get a slice of the pie too.

edit: These books are written by professors and subject matter experts, just so no one assumes any random person can bribe a cabinet official.

Teachers actually select their own publishers. The Department of Education maintains a list of "approved" publishers, but they generally stay out of the "local politics" within individual schools.

It’s a flawed system, but that’s how it works. As for the "slice of the pie," that is simply an inevitable byproduct of a competitive market.
Zachary Turner6 Zachary Turner6 Active Member
64 messages
joined Mar 2009
#18 ·
Look, we can stop pretending—this issue is present across every single instance, and there’s really no point in trying to deny it or sweep it under the rug.

The sheer volume of information hitting kids these days—driven by rapid scientific breakthroughs and the genuine necessity to process it all—is making it nearly impossible for them to actually absorb anything. It’s overwhelming. This creates a desperate need for professional or scientific guidance at an earlier age, but that brings us to a massive catch-22: how is a fourth or fifth grader supposed to know what they’re actually interested in, let alone what they're good at? At that age, most kids haven't even been exposed to a fraction of the different scientific fields or career paths out there, much less studied them enough to feel any kind of pull toward one. We’re essentially asking them to pick a lane before they even know what a road looks like. Of course, this leaves the entire weight of the situation—from explaining why education matters and sparking a child's curiosity to ensuring the quality and method of teaching itself—resting squarely on... professional To all the educators—teachers, professors, mentors—of whom we are, unfortunately, in such short supply: the current plan is poorly conceived, and even worse, it’s being executed poorly. I hate to say it—and please excuse the few honorable exceptions who are doing incredible work—but much of our teaching staff simply isn't meeting the increasingly complex needs of today's students. Some are struggling because they've been handed an impossible task through no fault of their own, while others... well, let's just say a lack of skill or motivation is playing a role here too.

My ongoing experience as a student in the philosophy department has led me to a rather grim realization—one that keeps me up at night—regarding my future colleagues. One day soon, many of these people will be entrusted with the responsibility of shaping and directing young minds. The problem? Most of these future "professors" handle programming languages about as skillfully as I’d handle deciphering medieval Manchu—which is to say, not at all. As for actually assembling a computer from scratch? That’s pure science fiction to them. Now, look, I’m not suggesting a professor needs to be a master technician, but if you're going to teach theory, your grasp of it should at least be flawless. Computer science, in particular, moves at a breakneck pace compared to almost any other field. Because of that rapid evolution, an educator in this discipline can't just graduate and call it a day; their education has to be a lifelong pursuit. Of course, I think that applies to professors in every field—it's just that given how fast tech is shifting under our feet, the stakes feel much higher in CS.

The situation here in America is even more dire. We have an entire generation that can’t seem to grasp the brilliance of Hemingway, Faulkner, or Steinbeck—and if they can't connect with those giants now, how on earth are they supposed to pass that torch to their own kids one day? It feels like we're losing the thread entirely.
What exactly is the end goal for these American studies students who can barely string together a coherent sentence in English, let alone draft a single semi-professional paper without tripping over their own grammar? Are they expected to become editors or teachers? It seems a bit ambitious to suggest someone could be a literature professor when they can't even manage three sentences regarding the importance of Marko Marulić to our literary heritage.

A lack of motivation combined with a visible deficit in actual expertise—especially in an unseasoned educator—is a dead giveaway that they’ve chosen the wrong career path. It’s a heavy burden for responsible employers to shoulder; they have to recognize this early and deny these individuals the chance to fail, because letting someone through due to sheer negligence means depriving kids and young adults of the quality education they deserve. Of course, that leads to the unfortunate reality where most new educators will struggle to find work—if they can find any at all—though, let's be honest, that's already the case in most parts of the country.

Of course, we can't just pin this entire mess on the teaching staff. It’s a bit shortsighted to act like the responsibility lies solely with them. Honestly, trying to motivate professors, administrators, or teachers to actually excel at their jobs is a losing battle when you consider the reality of their situation—they are largely underpaid, undervalued, dismissed, and stripped of their professional dignity. These individuals carry an immense weight on their shoulders. The ones who are truly skilled and possess actual pedagogical talent should be treated as a massive national asset—indispensable, really—yet they find themselves marginalized in what we so pretentiously call a "knowledge society." It’s become a bit of a joke, hasn't it? In our current system, it feels like those who actually know how to do the work are ignored, while those who have no clue are the ones running the show.

The sheer chaos and mismanagement within our educational infrastructure—everything from funding elementary schools through universities to equipping facilities and actually paying staff, from professors down to the janitors—is escalating year after year. And the icing on this dysfunctional cake? The crumbling state of the entire academic system here in America. This so-called "knowledge society" seems to have a knack for talking a big game about intellectual capital, yet they can barely figure out how to recognize or value the very expertise they claim to rely on.
restlessridge36 restlessridge36 Member
24 messages
joined May 2007
#19 ·
jademarlin26 said:Teachers actually select their own publishers. The Department of Education maintains a list of "approved" publishers, but they generally stay out of the "local politics" within individual schools.

It’s a flawed system, but that’s how it works. As for the "slice of the pie," that is simply an inevitable byproduct of a competitive market.

For certain subjects, the Department may only offer a single author. Look into which specific textbooks have been used in elementary schools for years and see who wrote them.

(If you need help, I can send you the subject and the author via DM 😁)
Sean Cruz Sean Cruz Regular
265 messages
joined Apr 2008
#20 ·
@Nepostojeći: Reading your take, I’d say things aren't all that different here, except for the whole affirmative action policy issue, which really feels like the icing on a very bitter cake. That said, I’m not one for sweeping generalizations. You’re starting to sound a bit like lastan with those broad strokes about patriots. 😁
I honestly have no clue how things operate on your side of the pond, but over here, watching old cartoons on Disney+ is a much better bedtime story than the reality of our education system.
To give you an idea of what I mean by the state of our schools:

image

I should probably add—rest his soul. 😁

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