What happened to Bon-ton?

Megan White4 said:Politics is a dirty game, and you don't sit at the table with players like that.

It’s a bit disheartening to have witnessed how modern etiquette has slipped. It seems that for many women today, having a man hold their coat or pull out a chair has become something they view as beneath them.

Oh, the decline of modern standards! 🙄

Exactly, Megan White4 😉 because nowadays, the peak of female empowerment is having a career and a car (while clutching those keys tightly in public), calling oneself "liberated," and then heaven forbid she actually shows up with a partner or, even worse, walks in alongside him.

Everything revolves around her.

I've already drifted into another thread, but I couldn't help myself regarding this one... sorry.🤷

Sam Rivera4 said:I honestly get a little skin crawl thinking about how people talk online. It’s like everyone just completely loses any sense of accountability toward whoever they're chatting with. From what I can tell, plenty of older folks have jumped on this bandwagon without a second thought, which makes me wonder—if they're already acting like this, how on earth are the younger generations who grew up in this digital wild west even going to behave?😕🤷

I think you’ve got a point there, but honestly—you might be looking at this from the wrong angle entirely.

When you plug yourself into the internet, you’re essentially exposing your senses to a constant stream of external stimuli and impulses. It’s a bit like opening all the windows in your house during a storm—you're letting everything in. If you decide to sign up for a forum and start getting involved in the discussions, you really have to be mindful of the fact that you've effectively extended your physical presence into this massive, high-speed electronic medium. It changes the rules of engagement, honestly. You don't even have to step foot out your front door to deal with someone insulting you, belittling your ideas, or making fun of you—though, of course, people can still be jerks in person, too. And the weirdest part? You don't even have to be actively logged on when the blow lands. You could be halfway through a movie or grabbing dinner, and that insult—that digital jab—is just sitting there waiting for you to come home and face it the moment you log back in.

Expecting someone else to step in and safeguard your nervous system—especially when you’ve gone out of your way to fry it by burying your face in digital screens all day—is honestly pretty naive. It’s just wishful thinking, really. You can't exactly hand the reins over to a stranger and hope they'll look out for your well-being after you've already spent so much time recklessly plugging yourself into the electronic void.

Look, if someone decides to go out of their way to rest their head on a stump, they can't really act surprised when things go sideways—at that point, the responsibility for their own noggin lies squarely on their own shoulders.

It seems like a lot of the older generation has jumped headfirst into this specific style of communicating online—it’s become almost second nature to them. It makes you wonder, though... if that's how the veterans are handling it, what does it say about the younger crowd? I mean, they’re basically digital natives, growing up with this kind of interaction as their primary language. You have to imagine their approach is on a whole different level.😕🤷

Nobody has actually changed... people have always been this way—the anonymity of the internet just stripped away the mask and let everyone show their true colors. In everyday society, most folks operate through a persona; they follow these unwritten social rules because that’s what others expect of them, not necessarily because they actually possess any real manners, morals, or ethics. It's pretty obvious—when you're sitting at home behind a computer screen, that persona just goes dormant. On the internet, you don't see the local plumber, the truck driver, the vagrants, or the secretaries who spend eight hours a day acting a certain way in an office setting... honestly, there aren't even women online (if you know, you know).

You know, that everyday person’s naivety when they run headfirst into a new medium—it’s nowhere more obvious than it is online. It’s actually pretty clear from your "fear" regarding how "irresponsible" everything has become. When people embrace a massive leap in technology or media without truly grasping how it works under the hood, it almost always leads to this deep-seated anxiety—and sometimes, honestly, some real trouble too. The internet really caught humanity off guard; if we had actually known what was coming through that digital door, I don't think any of us would have let it in.

Behind that whole MySpace and personal blogging illusion of being an "individualist," the internet is actually hiding a pretty dark secret. It’s slowly—but surely—stripping away every shred of personal perspective, authority, and social structure we used to rely on. Think about it this way: if Tony Blair were to sign up for a forum like this one, you wouldn't see anyone greeting him with a polite, "Good morning, Mr. Prime Minister!" Not a chance. In fact, it’s way more likely people would just jump him with comments like, "Get back in whatever hole you crawled out of, you power-hungry jerk."

Honestly, we shouldn't be surprised that you’re seeing this massive spike in anxiety during TV segments and interviews lately—everyone seems to be obsessing over "those online forums" or whatever corner of the internet they're fixated on. It’s becoming a constant fixture in the media cycle... Sundays just hit different when you're running on two different speeds at once—it’s like trying to balance a quiet morning coffee with the sudden realization that the whole week is staring you down. You know that feeling? One minute you're perfectly content just existing, and the next, you're mentally triaging your entire to-do list like it's some high-stakes corporate merger. It’s a bit of a split personality kind of day. It’s honestly kind of wild how Stanković just picks up questions and comments from these forums and carries them elsewhere—it’s like he's playing telephone with the internet. And then you have Toni Cetinski, who’s increasingly trying to comfort these wannabe influencers by telling them to "emulate these forums." It’s such a hollow sentiment. He’s basically suggesting they chase that fake sense of popularity, but let’s be real: he only finds any value in those spaces because he can monetize the illusion of being liked. If you take just one honest look at those boards, the whole thing pops like an overinflated soap bubble. Because that’s all they really are—just a bunch of bubbles waiting to burst.

It’s going to become blindingly obvious to every idiot out there just how much of an idiot they really are, very soon. The thing is, our current decentralized media landscape—the internet, basically—doesn't play nice with the old social protocols, the polite formalities, or the curated hierarchies we used to rely on. Back in the day, you couldn't just wander into the halls of Congress; it was a controlled environment where a politician could spin complete nonsense without worrying about getting hit in the head with a beer bottle every time they dared to mention "public trust." Honestly, looking at the numbers, more than half of the country doesn't trust anyone—I mean, when over 50% of people don't even bother showing up to vote, the whole idea of "public trust" becomes a total oxymoron. If more than half the population is skeptical, then moramo start talking about public distrust.

The stuff that scares you? It actually makes me incredibly happy. It’s like biological natural selection has finished its job and moved into the digital realm. Now, through electronic media, this new kind of natural selection is taking over—one where it’s not necessarily the loudest or strongest who survives, but the most capable.

We’re lucky that most people can't see where the internet is actually steering us. If they realized what was happening, they might actually revolt against this technological tool—a tool that essentially functions to record and bring awareness to our collective subconscious, effectively wiping away that detached, somewhat bourgeois perspective on the world. It reminds me of what Marshall said fifty years ago:

"With such (electronically instantaneous) consciousness, both private and social subconscious life is completely exposed, and as a result, 'social consciousness' presents itself as the cause of a sense of guilt. In the electronic age, we carry all of humanity on ourselves like our own skin."

Alexander Lewis said:He was crushed between the relentless grind of unchecked communism and the unstoppable momentum of runaway capitalism.
The social etiquette we once valued has become a joke. Nowadays, self-control and decency aren't worth much. Instead, the biggest tough guy in the room is always the one who steals, fights, and breaks things just to prove he can—basically signaling that if you even look at him the wrong way, you’re next. 😢

And honestly? That’s what some women go for. They want that raw, unrefined energy—someone they can basically pay off with sex to act as their physical bodyguard. It lets them play the part of being rude or arrogant in public, knowing they have that muscle behind them. At least, that's the deal, right up until the guy decides to turn that aggression on her instead.

William Gonzalez3 said:
Maybe etiquette is dead simply because people aren't interested in maintaining the facade anymore, given that there's less pressure to do so.
We could probably reasonably assume that in the past, society exerted much more intense pressure on individuals to conform to specific norms and regulations, whereas today, things are shifting; people are slowly breaking free and becoming more blunt with one another.

For instance, how many times have you lied when saying "good morning" to someone, while secretly wishing you could just walk away?
Or maybe you sat through a tedious conversation about someone's relationship drama or a minor medical procedure—like a sinus surgery—out of pure politeness, even though you would have preferred to be doing literally anything else at that moment.
It's the same with standing up for an older passenger on a subway or a bus when you don't really want to, just because "that's what you do"—even when you realize that person could easily stand on their own, or even run, if they saw an empty seat opening up.
In a way, society is built on certain illusions, and social etiquette is often just a set of guidelines on when, to whom, and how we should perform those lies.
If this kind of behavior were truly innate to human nature, I guess we wouldn't need to be taught it; we would just naturally gravitate toward it.

Personally, I haven't quite reached that level of "natural" behavior; instead, I've come to a somewhat different conclusion—that every time I follow traditional etiquette, I feel like I'm sacrificing my own comfort to accommodate someone else's, and more often than not, I'm being dishonest in the process. For example, I've stopped using overly formal titles for older people just to project a sense of respect that isn't necessarily felt.
I'd rather reserve that level of deference for people who actually earn it through their actions, rather than simply because they have gray hair or dentures.
And honestly, most people who truly deserve my respect don't even demand that level of formality from me in the first place.

I have to disagree; if anything, people are lying more than ever before. We see it everywhere—from massive economic spin and political propaganda down to those "mundane," everyday interactions. Even physical appearances are increasingly artificial—look at how common silicone implants have become.

Quincy:

one could reasonably assume that society used to exert much heavier pressure on the individual to conform to specific rules, norms, and regulations, whereas today that pressure has dissipated, allowing people to slowly liberate themselves and become more sincere with one another.

That is fundamentally incorrect. In this day and age, society exerts more pressure than ever for people to curate a manufactured "image"—a carefully constructed persona designed solely to ensure they are "accepted."

Quincy:

for instance, how many times have you lied when saying "good morning" to someone, while secretly wishing you could just punch them in the teeth?

Personally, I believe a person should be capable of wishing anyone at least a pleasant day and good health; there really isn't a need for deception in that regard.
Quincy:

or perhaps you've submissively listened to someone drone on about their tedious relationship drama or a trivial medical procedure—like a deviated septum surgery—even though you would have preferred to be doing literally anything else.

It is generally better to listen to a person, even if the timing is entirely inconvenient for you.

Quincy:

or maybe you stood up for an elderly passenger on a subway even when you didn't want to, simply because "that's what you do" and "it's the rule," all while being perfectly aware that the person could likely stand—or even run—without issue, as older folks often do when they spot an empty seat on the train.

I don't know what it's like to deal with osteoporosis or to be pregnant, but that "rule" feels quite instinctive to me. Whenever I'm riding the subway, I actually find satisfaction in giving up my seat to a pregnant woman or an elderly person.

William Gonzalez3 said:
Where did the pressure go? I guess I’m just wondering where all that intensity vanished to—it feels like things have suddenly gone quiet.
I've been wondering—has anyone actually ever felt pressured by someone else to get breast implants?

I think we’ve got this all wrong. Nowadays, it feels like society puts more pressure on us than ever before—this constant, relentless drive to curate a fake persona, an "image," just to feel like we actually belong. It's almost as if we're forced to perform a version of ourselves that doesn't exist, simply to be accepted by everyone else.

Yeah, I guess elementary school can be pretty brutal to certain kids sometimes—it’s just one of those harsh realities of growing up.
But even so—it doesn't really change the fact that society just doesn't hold the same kind of sway over the individual anymore. It’s different now than it used to be, back when communities were smaller and everyone actually knew one another—you know, when you couldn't just slip under the radar. Nowadays, people are so much more mobile; if you find yourself in an environment that doesn't quite fit, it’s incredibly easy to just pack up and move on to somewhere else.
The reality is—if we're being honest—that society just doesn't have the power to force anyone to do anything.

The reality is—if we're being honest—that society doesn't actually force anyone to stick to those old-fashioned rules of etiquette anymore. I guess there isn't really any real pressure left to behave according to the traditional standards we used to live by.

As for that idea—that everyone should just be capable of wishing someone a good day or being kind in the ways you mentioned in your previous post—I think reality tends to tell a different story. I guess the truth is often much harsher than those ideals.

I honestly don't think people truly desire mutual prosperity or collective well-being—or perhaps, more accurately, they simply aren't capable of it. It seems like most folks lack the courage to be honest with one another—whether that's because they're acting out of cowardice or just trying too hard to fit in—and, I guess, they also struggle to face the uncomfortable truths about themselves.
Actually, I think what I described happens more often than what you’re suggesting should be the norm—you know, that weird situation where someone gives you a greeting and simultaneously wishes for you to take down whoever they're actually greeting. It seems like that's the more common reality, even if it isn't exactly how things ought to work.

In the past, I suppose people were much more polite—offering those courteous "good mornings" and wishing one another well—mostly because they felt they had to. There was this immense social pressure to conform, wasn't there? Back then, the penalties for stepping outside the bounds of law and order—whether through formal legal action or just informal social shunning—were significantly harsher than what we experience today. Plus, the concept of individual rights just wasn't nearly as robust as the protections we take for granted in America now. It was less about genuine kindness and more about navigating a much more rigid social structure.
I suppose people don't feel the need to lie quite as much as they used to—it isn't so much that everyone has suddenly become perfect, but rather that there’s a certain level of openness now. People seem to be much more sincere with one another than in the past, I guess.

Just to reiterate my point—society is essentially built upon a foundation of lies, and honestly, it’s those very lies that allow everything to function as it does.
I suppose if we all actually knew what everyone else truly thought of us—I mean, really knew—things would look a whole lot different. Honestly, society would probably just fall apart under the weight of it all.
I suppose the whole point of etiquette is really just about maintaining a certain illusion—that sense that everyone actually likes and respects one another, even when they don't. It’s almost like a social veneer, isn't it? A way to keep things civil and polished, regardless of what might be happening beneath the surface.
I suppose anyone who’s spent even a little bit of time around the local crowd knows—better than anyone, really—that nothing can ever be further from the truth.

How exactly do you figure that? It feels like we’re being micromanaged by our surroundings at every single turn—it's practically inescapable.

Who has actually ever pressured anyone into getting breast implants?

The surrounding area. 🤣 The era of these types of "adjustments"—and everything like them—is only just beginning to arrive.
Let’s say, hypothetically, you were a woman—would you actually have the nerve to show up at the beach without having groomed every single inch of your body? It’s a different ballgame entirely. The reality is that you’d be facing a hell of a lot more scrutiny and social pressure—specifically the kind involving being mocked or judged—than your grandmother or grandfather ever had to deal with back in the day, simply because they might not have been strictly adhering to what we now consider modern standards of "proper" etiquette.

Let’s be honest—elementary school can be pretty brutal when it comes to how kids pick on individuals. It’s a harsh environment, and the social dynamics can be downright unforgiving.
But let’s be honest—that doesn't change the fundamental reality that society just doesn't hold the same kind of leverage over the individual anymore. Back when communities were smaller—think of those tight-knit midwestern towns where everyone knew your business before you even did—social pressure was an absolute powerhouse. Nowadays? That influence has evaporated. People are far more mobile than they used to be; if you find yourself stuck in a social circle or a local culture that doesn't sit right with you, you don't have to suffer through it—you can just pack up and move to a different city entirely. It's much easier to walk away from a community that no longer serves you.
Let’s be honest—the cold, hard truth is that society simply doesn't have the teeth to force anyone to do anything. At the end of the day, you can push and prod all you want, but you can't actually compel a person to act against their will.

Society today—fueled by the relentless media machine—possesses an almost lobotomizing power. It’s a surgical strike without the scalpel, yet the end result remains just as devastatingly hollow. From the manufactured drama of Big Brother to the sheer, chaotic unpredictability coming out of the Huljić workshop, one could honestly go on forever.

The reality is that society doesn't actually force anyone to adhere to the old-school rules of etiquette anymore—it just kind of lets them fade away.

That’s not even what I was getting at—what I mean is that today, there's this constant, forced pressure to act a certain way toward... I’m still waiting to see if anyone actually has anything useful to add here—it feels like we’re just spinning our wheels in the sand at this point. The rules—if we can even call them that—are quite clear on this one. It’s getting more intense than... What exactly do these people consider to be—according to their own logic—the "old rules" we’re supposedly breaking today?

Regarding that whole notion that everyone should just be capable of wishing someone a good morning or being generally pleasant—the kind of stuff you touched on in your previous post—well, reality has a funny way of proving you wrong. It’s easy to preach about basic civility, but when you actually step out into the world, it becomes pretty clear that most people simply don't operate that way.

Look, I’m speaking strictly for myself here. For instance, whenever I encounter someone who is being wildly overrated or—let's be honest—completely incompetent, I make a point of letting them know exactly where they stand. I don't sugarcoat it. At the same time, though—and this is an important distinction—I can still sincerely wish them good health. It's entirely possible to be brutally honest about someone's lack of talent while simultaneously hoping they stay out of the hospital.

Let’s be honest—most people don't actually want others to thrive, nor do they have the internal fortitude to wish someone genuine prosperity or health. It’s a fundamental flaw in the human condition. They lack the courage to face the truth when dealing with others—mostly because they’re either spineless cowards or simple conformists who prefer the comfort of a lie—and, quite frankly, they lack the emotional maturity to handle the truth about themselves.

You’re generalizing. If I decide you’re being either dim-witted or acting in bad faith—which is a judgment I won't hesitate to make—I’ll be sure to let you know exactly where you stand. I've certainly made a habit of calling people out like that before. 🤣Look, I’m not out here wishing you ill or hoping you end up in a wreck on some interstate—that’s just not my style. Honestly, I want nothing but good health for everyone; I mean that sincerely.

In reality, what I’ve pointed out happens far more often than that idealized version of social etiquette you’re describing—you know, that scenario where someone offers a friendly greeting while simultaneously harboring a desperate urge to deck the very person they’re waving at.

I don't exactly harbor those kinds of impulses—you know, that sudden, irrational urge to just go out and deck someone.

Back in the day, people were much more likely to offer a polite "good morning" or wish you well—not necessarily because they actually cared, but because social etiquette was essentially a survival mechanism. Society exerted this intense, constant pressure on the individual to conform; if you stepped out of line, the repercussions weren't just awkward glances at a cocktail party. The penalties for breaking the established laws and social order were significantly more draconian, and let’s be honest—human rights were a far cry from the protections we take for granted in America today. It was less about genuine kindness and more about avoiding the heavy hand of an era where the margin for error was razor-thin.
It’s funny how things have shifted—honestly, it feels like people don't even need to resort to the old-fashioned art of lying anymore. It isn't that everyone suddenly developed a moral compass overnight; it's more that we've become significantly more blunt with one another. We aren't exactly spinning webs of deception like we used to—instead, there's this pervasive, almost aggressive level of transparency that has taken over our daily interactions.

Where exactly do you live? Honestly, the sheer amount of posturing, superficiality, and pure pretension out there seems more widespread than ever before.
There’s this relentless social pressure these days to constantly be "in"—as if life were some high-stakes popularity contest where you’re either trending or completely irrelevant. If you haven't meticulously curated this specific, polished image of yourself, you're effectively written off as being "out." It’s become this exhausting, unspoken rule: perform the persona, or face the social exile. 🤣

Let me reiterate: society is built entirely upon a foundation of lies—and frankly, it’s those very lies that keep the whole machine running.
If we all actually knew what everyone else was truly thinking about us—really, truly knowing their unfiltered thoughts—things would look a lot different around here. Honestly? Society would probably just fall apart at the seams.
The true purpose of etiquette—if we’re being honest about it—is simply to maintain a convincing facade where everyone pretends to adore and respect one another.
Anyone who’s actually spent any time rubbing elbows with the common crowd knows—as anyone with half a brain can tell you—that nothing they say is even remotely close to the truth.

While certain rules of etiquette can feel a bit forced—almost like they’re being performed just for the sake of appearances—I truly believe there are others that are entirely natural and, frankly, more than welcome.

_

I'm still waiting to see if anyone actually has something meaningful to contribute to this thread—it feels like we're just circling the drain at this point. kaže:
The pressure from everyone around you—it’s real. It’s constant, heavy, and frankly, exhausting.
It’s hardly a matter of coercion.
You can demand compliance, sure—but you can’t actually force someone to say "yes." You can apply all the pressure in the world, tighten the screws until they’re practically screaming, but at the end of the day, you’ve only succeeded in creating resistance. It’s like trying to force a rusted bolt to turn by just leaning on it harder; eventually, you aren't getting movement, you're just snapping the tool. Pressure might bend people, but it doesn't change their minds.
Back in the day, we used to deal with court-ordered mandates.
Now we’re just dealing with nothing more than pressure.
And that right there—that’s the subtle distinction we're talking about.

Let’s be clear—when we talk about legal compulsion, there was never any actual mandate regarding "etiquette" or social graces in the past. There aren't laws on the books that fine you for being rude at a dinner party. However, if we look at the informal pressure to conform to certain behaviors—behaviors that, frankly, have absolutely nothing to do with basic manners—it feels much more intense today than it ever was back in the day. It's less about being polite and more about an aggressive, unspoken demand to act a certain way just to fit a modern mold.

Like I was saying—individuals have far more mobility today than they used to. People actually have the agency to pack up and walk away from environments that don't suit them anymore—places that, frankly, would otherwise try to force them into some rigid, outdated mold.

Mobility doesn't actually mean much in the grand scheme of things—I mean, let’s be honest, moving from Chicago to Seattle isn't exactly a leap into a different dimension. It's more or less the same grind, just with a different skyline and perhaps a different brand of overpriced coffee.

If I were actually planning to go get a wax today, I’d probably head to a beach where people wouldn't spend the whole time judging a metrosexual like me.

You didn't actually answer the question—you just dodged it. Let’s be real: if you were a woman today and decided to skip the grooming routine, you wouldn't even be able to step foot on a public beach without becoming an immediate target for ridicule.

Look, there is an incredibly simple solution that people seem to overlook in their endless debates about media influence: you can just turn the damn TV off. It is a remarkably effective way to opt out of the mass media circus entirely—just reach for the remote, hit the power button, and suddenly, that whole manufactured reality ceases to exist in your living room.

It doesn't really matter. Even if you decide to "unplug" from the television—say you’re a journalist—the industry is still going to demand that you churn out nothing but clickbait and sensationalism. If you’re a musician, you'll be pressured to pump out whatever mindless, top-40 garbage is trending this week; if you’re a designer, you’ll find yourself forced to produce pure kitsch just to stay relevant. The pressure is immense because so many people have already been conditioned by the mainstream noise—they've had their brains essentially rewired. In certain professions, you don't even have an audience left to create anything meaningful for. So, while you might think "turning off the TV" and refusing to let them brainwash you is a victory, it doesn't actually change your reality. It’s hard to maintain your own perspective when you're constantly surrounded by people whose minds have already been scrubbed clean.

Like I said before—middle school can be a real minefield of cruelty.
One thing I neglected to mention—and it’s a point worth highlighting if we want to be thorough—is that once you finally clear the hurdles of middle school and high school, that relentless, suffocating pressure from your social circle just... evaporates. It’s as if the constant scrutiny from peers and teachers suddenly vanishes, leaving you to navigate the real world without someone constantly breathing down your neck about every little move you make.

It’s all a bit much, isn't it? Nowadays, if you actually want to land a contract or close a deal, it feels less about your actual talent and more about the optics—who you're grabbing drinks with, what kind of car you pull up in, and whether your suit screams "Wall Street executive" or "just rolled out of bed." Honestly, the level of pretension in the business world has reached an all-time high; it's like everyone is auditioning for a role in a high-stakes drama rather than just trying to get work done.

I’m speaking for myself here, certainly—but I’m also speaking for the countless others who have to answer to those truly vile, 밑less creatures. Honestly, most supervisors fall into this category; they are the kind of people you wouldn't wish a common cold upon, let alone anything more serious. It's a grim reality for many in the workforce.
It’s funny how people suddenly decide they’re your superior—it’s almost like they’re finally dropping the act and showing you their true colors once they realize you aren't actually a threat to their little kingdom.
Since I deal with quite a few managers and supervisors myself, I’ve developed a fairly accurate intuition regarding what people are actually made of—and I certainly don't harbor any delusions that they were somehow different in their past lives.
From an objective standpoint, people can be pathetic, weak, and fundamentally corrupt.

Back in the day, I used to hire people while working for a private firm. Even now, I stay in touch with some of them—we play sports together, I’ll even lend them a hand financially—and we grab coffee from time to time. Honestly, it's a pleasure running into them.

Quincy:

You're back at it again, lecturing about what's considered "cool" in schools. I know how it is. I went through all of that, and I remember exactly what it feels like when you don't have the latest Nikes in middle school. But life after graduation is a completely different animal. People's priorities shift significantly; they stop obsessing over whether something is "in" or "out," and nobody gives a damn if you aren't wearing designer kicks or if you didn't go on some trendy spring break trip. I truly don't understand this constant pressure you insist on talking about. The only real pressure I notice in my own orbit is existential. Worrying about being trendy is a luxury reserved for the obscenely wealthy. And there aren't many of those people in this country.

Where exactly are you living? Most of what is considered "trendy" is incredibly shallow. The pressure is intense—if I want to survive, I might have to backtrack and do things I find beneath me just to get by. I won't bore you with the details, but that applies to many areas of life. Perhaps not in your world; I'm not sure what you do for a living.

Quincy:

Rules themselves aren't natural, nor are they particularly welcome.

Perhaps, yet I find certain "rules" and elements of social etiquette to be entirely natural—so much so, in my view, that they wouldn't even need to be written down. 🤷

_

Rebecca Rivera2 said:

I'm still waiting to see if anyone actually has something meaningful to contribute to this thread—it feels like we're just circling the drain at this point. kaže:
The pressure from everyone around you—it’s real. It’s constant, heavy, and frankly, exhausting.
It’s hardly a matter of coercion.
You can demand compliance, sure—but you can’t actually force someone to say "yes." You can apply all the pressure in the world, tighten the screws until they’re practically screaming, but at the end of the day, you’ve only succeeded in creating resistance. It’s like trying to force a rusted bolt to turn by just leaning on it harder; eventually, you aren't getting movement, you're just snapping the tool. Pressure might bend people, but it doesn't change their minds.
Back in the day, we used to deal with court-ordered mandates.
Now we’re just dealing with nothing more than pressure.
And that right there—that’s the subtle distinction we're talking about.

Let’s be clear—when we talk about legal compulsion, there was never any actual mandate regarding "etiquette" or social graces in the past. There aren't laws on the books that fine you for being rude at a dinner party. However, if we look at the informal pressure to conform to certain behaviors—behaviors that, frankly, have absolutely nothing to do with basic manners—it feels much more intense today than it ever was back in the day. It's less about being polite and more about an aggressive, unspoken demand to act a certain way just to fit a modern mold.

Like I was saying—individuals have far more mobility today than they used to. People actually have the agency to pack up and walk away from environments that don't suit them anymore—places that, frankly, would otherwise try to force them into some rigid, outdated mold.

Mobility doesn't actually mean much in the grand scheme of things—I mean, let’s be honest, moving from Chicago to Seattle isn't exactly a leap into a different dimension. It's more or less the same grind, just with a different skyline and perhaps a different brand of overpriced coffee.

If I were actually planning to go get a wax today, I’d probably head to a beach where people wouldn't spend the whole time judging a metrosexual like me.

You didn't actually answer the question—you just dodged it. Let’s be real: if you were a woman today and decided to skip the grooming routine, you wouldn't even be able to step foot on a public beach without becoming an immediate target for ridicule.

Look, there is an incredibly simple solution that people seem to overlook in their endless debates about media influence: you can just turn the damn TV off. It is a remarkably effective way to opt out of the mass media circus entirely—just reach for the remote, hit the power button, and suddenly, that whole manufactured reality ceases to exist in your living room.

It doesn't really matter. Even if you decide to "unplug" from the television—say you’re a journalist—the industry is still going to demand that you churn out nothing but clickbait and sensationalism. If you’re a musician, you'll be pressured to pump out whatever mindless, top-40 garbage is trending this week; if you’re a designer, you’ll find yourself forced to produce pure kitsch just to stay relevant. The pressure is immense because so many people have already been conditioned by the mainstream noise—they've had their brains essentially rewired. In certain professions, you don't even have an audience left to create anything meaningful for. So, while you might think "turning off the TV" and refusing to let them brainwash you is a victory, it doesn't actually change your reality. It’s hard to maintain your own perspective when you're constantly surrounded by people whose minds have already been scrubbed clean.

Like I said before—middle school can be a real minefield of cruelty.
One thing I neglected to mention—and it’s a point worth highlighting if we want to be thorough—is that once you finally clear the hurdles of middle school and high school, that relentless, suffocating pressure from your social circle just... evaporates. It’s as if the constant scrutiny from peers and teachers suddenly vanishes, leaving you to navigate the real world without someone constantly breathing down your neck about every little move you make.

It’s all a bit much, isn't it? Nowadays, if you actually want to land a contract or close a deal, it feels less about your actual talent and more about the optics—who you're grabbing drinks with, what kind of car you pull up in, and whether your suit screams "Wall Street executive" or "just rolled out of bed." Honestly, the level of pretension in the business world has reached an all-time high; it's like everyone is auditioning for a role in a high-stakes drama rather than just trying to get work done.

I’m speaking for myself here, certainly—but I’m also speaking for the countless others who have to answer to those truly vile, 밑less creatures. Honestly, most supervisors fall into this category; they are the kind of people you wouldn't wish a common cold upon, let alone anything more serious. It's a grim reality for many in the workforce.
It’s funny how people suddenly decide they’re your superior—it’s almost like they’re finally dropping the act and showing you their true colors once they realize you aren't actually a threat to their little kingdom.
Since I deal with quite a few managers and supervisors myself, I’ve developed a fairly accurate intuition regarding what people are actually made of—and I certainly don't harbor any delusions that they were somehow different in their past lives.
From an objective standpoint, people can be pathetic, weak, and fundamentally corrupt.

Back in the day, I used to hire people while working for a private firm. Even now, I stay in touch with some of them—we play sports together, I’ll even lend them a hand financially—and we grab coffee from time to time. Honestly, it's a pleasure running into them.

Quincy:

You're back at it again, lecturing about what's considered "cool" in schools. I know how it is. I went through all of that, and I remember exactly what it feels like when you don't have the latest Nikes in middle school. But life after graduation is a completely different animal. People's priorities shift significantly; they stop obsessing over whether something is "in" or "out," and nobody gives a damn if you aren't wearing designer kicks or if you didn't go on some trendy spring break trip. I truly don't understand this constant pressure you insist on talking about. The only real pressure I notice in my own orbit is existential. Worrying about being trendy is a luxury reserved for the obscenely wealthy. And there aren't many of those people in this country.

Where exactly are you living? Most of what is considered "trendy" is incredibly shallow. The pressure is intense—if I want to survive, I might have to backtrack and do things I find beneath me just to get by. I won't bore you with the details, but that applies to many areas of life. Perhaps not in your world; I'm not sure what you do for a living.

Quincy:

Rules themselves aren't natural, nor are they particularly welcome.

Perhaps, yet I find certain "rules" and elements of social etiquette to be entirely natural—so much so, in my view, that they wouldn't even need to be written down. 🤷

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So? Does the mockery get to you? Why even push your way into a crowd that doesn't want you there anyway?

Doesn't matter. Even if you "turn off" the TV, if you're a journalist, everyone still expects you to churn out clickbait. If you're a singer, you have to sing whatever trash is trending. If you're a designer, you've gotta make tacky stuff... Basically, the pressure is insane because so many people have been brainwashed that in certain industries, there's nobody left to actually create anything meaningful for. So, "turning off" the TV and trying not to let them mess with your head doesn't really help you much, since everyone around you has already had their brains washed...

Hahaha, same thing again... Why force yourself into places where you aren't wanted? I mean, even tigers wouldn't want me hanging out with them...🙄

Olivia Evans8 said:So? Does the mockery get to you? Why even push your way into a crowd that doesn't want you there anyway?

Doesn't matter. Even if you "turn off" the TV, if you're a journalist, everyone still expects you to churn out clickbait. If you're a singer, you have to sing whatever trash is trending. If you're a designer, you've gotta make tacky stuff... Basically, the pressure is insane because so many people have been brainwashed that in certain industries, there's nobody left to actually create anything meaningful for. So, "turning off" the TV and trying not to let them mess with your head doesn't really help you much, since everyone around you has already had their brains washed...

Hahaha, same thing again... Why force yourself into places where you aren't wanted? I mean, even tigers wouldn't want me hanging out with them...🙄

Did you miss the point of my examples?

The first was about a hypothetical woman—pointing out the reality that she’ll face that exact same mockery pretty much everywhere she turns.

The second hypothetical scenario dealt with a profession—say, if you're a journalist, you don't really have an escape hatch because every major news outlet from New York to LA is increasingly pivoting toward sensationalist trash.

I could go on and list plenty of other careers... fields where you effectively have zero options because of the relentless pressure from an idiotized public and whatever mindless trends they demand.

Get it now? 😉

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Rebecca Rivera2 said:Did you miss the point of my examples?

The first was about a hypothetical woman—pointing out the reality that she’ll face that exact same mockery pretty much everywhere she turns.

The second hypothetical scenario dealt with a profession—say, if you're a journalist, you don't really have an escape hatch because every major news outlet from New York to LA is increasingly pivoting toward sensationalist trash.

I could go on and list plenty of other careers... fields where you effectively have zero options because of the relentless pressure from an idiotized public and whatever mindless trends they demand.

Get it now? 😉

_

Christiane Amanpour doesn't deal in trashy journalism. And a woman choosing not to shave isn't inherently gross; it's just her choice.

See?

Anyone telling you that you "basically" have no choice is lying to your face. Those people are just used to being coddled...

Olivia Evans8 said:Christiane Amanpour doesn't deal in trashy journalism. And a woman choosing not to shave isn't inherently gross; it's just her choice.

See?

Anyone telling you that you "basically" have no choice is lying to your face. Those people are just used to being coddled...

Don't give me that. It's clear you have no idea what the reality is like in certain parts of America... And if you happen to stumble upon a single positive example, it’s—sadly enough—becoming a rare exception to the rule.

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Rebecca Rivera2 said:Don't give me that. It's clear you have no idea what the reality is like in certain parts of America... And if you happen to stumble upon a single positive example, it’s—sadly enough—becoming a rare exception to the rule.

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That's just part of the job... 😉

Quincy:

It’s pretty obvious you don't get how things work in America in certain circles...

Doesn't change my point though...

Quincy:

Well, if you can actually find a positive example, it's sadly the exception rather than the rule.

That's because people don't want to stand out as examples, they just want to fit in. Just being sheep... all neatly shorn... 🙂

Olivia Evans8 said:That's just part of the job... 😉

Quincy:

It’s pretty obvious you don't get how things work in America in certain circles...

Doesn't change my point though...

Quincy:

Well, if you can actually find a positive example, it's sadly the exception rather than the rule.

That's because people don't want to stand out as examples, they just want to fit in. Just being sheep... all neatly shorn... 🙂

The real issue here is that the masses—those mindless sheep—are actively demanding mediocrity. They crave something shallow and fundamentally stupid. If you’re one of the few people who refuses to play along with that downward spiral, you’re going to find yourself in a tight spot. You end up under immense pressure simply because you refuse to blend into a crowd that seems increasingly determined to lower the collective IQ.

Let’s be honest—liberal capitalism essentially uses the media to "manufacture" a mindless consumer class—people who are conditioned to fall in love with buying absolute junk—but that is a conversation for another time.

Rebecca Rivera2 said:The real issue here is that the masses—those mindless sheep—are actively demanding mediocrity. They crave something shallow and fundamentally stupid. If you’re one of the few people who refuses to play along with that downward spiral, you’re going to find yourself in a tight spot. You end up under immense pressure simply because you refuse to blend into a crowd that seems increasingly determined to lower the collective IQ.

Let’s be honest—liberal capitalism essentially uses the media to "manufacture" a mindless consumer class—people who are conditioned to fall in love with buying absolute junk—but that is a conversation for another time.

True, but my point is there's no actual coercion involved. You can stay inside the system and either help build it up or throw a wrench in the gears. It’s not forced, it’s just pressure—and you only feel it if you actually *want* to be part of that society. So many people say "I don't care" about all the chaos in the modern world, while others are desperately trying to be somewhere they clearly don't belong. That's not pressure... that's just being foolish.

Olivia Evans8 said:True, but my point is there's no actual coercion involved. You can stay inside the system and either help build it up or throw a wrench in the gears. It’s not forced, it’s just pressure—and you only feel it if you actually *want* to be part of that society. So many people say "I don't care" about all the chaos in the modern world, while others are desperately trying to be somewhere they clearly don't belong. That's not pressure... that's just being foolish.

What exactly are we discussing here? Let's take a look: Imagine you're a journalist at a major network like NBC or CNN. Your boss demands you chase celebrity gossip and write mindless fluff because that’s what gets clicks—it’s "in." If you insist on covering substantive, intellectual topics, they’ll eventually show you the door because that doesn't move the needle—it's "out." You can jump ship to a different news outlet or move from New York to Los Angeles, but the script remains identical.
That is, by definition, pressure—and it is absolutely a form of coercion, given that it carries the implicit threat of being fired. Nowadays, success isn't driven by etiquette or genuine expertise; instead, many professions require you to embrace mediocrity, emptiness, kitsch, and pure trash—basically, any mass-produced garbage that is cheap to make and easy to sell.

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Rebecca Rivera2 said:What exactly are we discussing here? Let's take a look: Imagine you're a journalist at a major network like NBC or CNN. Your boss demands you chase celebrity gossip and write mindless fluff because that’s what gets clicks—it’s "in." If you insist on covering substantive, intellectual topics, they’ll eventually show you the door because that doesn't move the needle—it's "out." You can jump ship to a different news outlet or move from New York to Los Angeles, but the script remains identical.
That is, by definition, pressure—and it is absolutely a form of coercion, given that it carries the implicit threat of being fired. Nowadays, success isn't driven by etiquette or genuine expertise; instead, many professions require you to embrace mediocrity, emptiness, kitsch, and pure trash—basically, any mass-produced garbage that is cheap to make and easy to sell.

_

OMG, if you don't want to do that, just leave! I mean, which part of that is confusing? If a company does exactly what you hate, why on earth would you still want to work there? Just start your own business where none of that nonsense exists! Just don't go forcing everyone else to deal with your standards when they're just trying to run their business.

If everything is truly the same everywhere (and let's be real, it's not—that's just lazy thinking), then maybe the job you think you have isn't actually a real profession anymore, but just some cheap, watered-down version of it. Either way, if you're not feeling it,
just walk away...
Anyway, this is getting pretty off-topic, but the whole point the person who triggered you made—which is what I'm trying to get across—is that you have the freedom and the right to just bail from an environment that doesn't suit you.

William Gonzalez3 said:
It wasn’t exactly a matter of legal compulsion—not in the way we think of laws today—but if someone dared to defy social etiquette back then, they faced more than just a cold shoulder. They could be met with total social isolation, which, in many ways, was its own kind of sentence. And honestly, sometimes the consequences were much darker—we're talking about things like mob violence or similar outbursts. I suppose the pressure from one's immediate community was incomparably heavier than what we experience now, especially since society had access to various methods of coercion that simply don't exist in our modern world.
Back then, it was enough to just label someone as morally bankrupt—or even go as far as calling them a witch—and the fallout for that person would be absolutely devastating. I guess, looking back, the consequences were incredibly severe; once that stigma stuck, there really wasn't much way to recover.

It seems like nowadays, people can—well, I suppose they can—openly label themselves as witches without facing any real consequences at all—aside from maybe some lighthearted mockery, I guess.

William Gonzalez3

It feels like there’s this informal pressure to act a certain way nowadays—not even about being polite or having good manners, really—but just a constant, unspoken push toward specific behaviors. It seems more intense now than it used to be, I guess.

I don't think I ever really dealt with that kind of pressure when I was finishing up elementary school—it just wasn't quite like this, I guess.

Mobility doesn't really mean much to me—I mean, honestly, even if you move to a different city, it’s mostly more of the same.

If things are already this way in one city, I suspect we won't see much of a difference in another state either—it probably won't change anything.

You didn't actually answer me—you just dodged the question. I mean, look, if you were a woman today and chose not to shave, you practically wouldn't be able to step foot on a single beach without being subjected to constant ridicule. It’s just how things are.

Maybe even a woman who hasn't had any work done could find a beach where people aren't staring or snickering—if such a place actually exists.
I know that all too well—from my own personal experience, anyway.
So... I suppose we should probably dive into this.

It doesn't really matter. Even if you decide to "unplug" from the mainstream media, the pressure remains—if you’re a journalist, people will still expect you to churn out clickbait and sensationalist trash; if you’re a singer, you’ll be pressured to perform whatever latest low-brow hit is trending; and if you’re a designer, it feels like you're forced to produce nothing but kitsch. It seems like there's no way to escape the demand for mediocrity.

There’s actually a whole range of examples—spanning journalism, fine art, and even graphic design—that pretty much prove the exact opposite. Honestly, I think that makes this a rather thin argument if you're trying to demonstrate that supposed "powerful pressure."
Take a band like Cold Brew, for instance—nobody is forcing them to churn out mindless, commercial junk, yet they’ve managed to become incredibly successful and widely heard.
People actually value quality—it’s not just about cheap junk or things that look washed out and faded.

It’s funny how things work—or don't work. To actually land a deal these days, it feels like people aren't even looking at your pitch anymore. Instead, they’re busy judging who you hang out with, what kind of car you pulled up in, or whether your suit looks expensive enough. I guess the level of pretension in the business world is just higher than it's ever been.

Not really, I guess.
Honestly, I think all you really need is to show up in clean, tidy clothes—and nothing more than that. That’s really it.

William Gonzalez3

Back in the day, when I was managing people at a private firm—I think it was a mid-sized tech company out in Austin—I formed some truly lasting bonds. It’s funny how things work out, I guess. Even now, I still hang out with several of my former employees; we grab coffee, stay active together through sports, and I’ve even helped a few of them out financially when they were in a pinch. Honestly, seeing them doing well and catching up every once in a while... it really brings me a lot of genuine joy.

I'm glad to hear that—really.
I suspect things aren't quite like that at other companies—well, maybe they are, but I haven't really seen it firsthand.

It’s possible—though I suppose one could argue that certain "rules" and... I think there might have been a misunderstanding—it looks like your message was just a single word, "dio." If you were trying to share a specific post or some text for me to rewrite, please go ahead and paste it! I’m ready to get to work once I have the source material. It all feels quite natural to me—so, honestly, as far as I'm concerned, those rules probably didn't even need to be written down in the first place. 🤷

It seems to me—and I could be wrong here—that absolutely no rule feels truly natural.
I suppose all of these rules are essentially just social constructs—nothing more than a collection of instructions created by society to dictate what an individual can or cannot do.
If rules were truly inherent to our nature, I suppose they would be identical across every society throughout history—but as we all know, that simply isn't the case.
I suppose it really comes down to the setting—burping can be seen as a sign of being satisfied with a meal in some circles, while in others, it’s just plain rude. It’s one of those things that seems to depend entirely on where you are.
It’s interesting how much culture dictates our grief—you know, in some parts of the world, people wear white to show they're mourning, while elsewhere, black is the standard. I guess it just goes to show how much our traditions shape the way we express even our most private emotions.
I suppose there are certain situations where you just have to dress up—even if, in a different setting, it might feel a bit much or even slightly out of place.
etc. etc.
All these rules—they’re really just human inventions, aren't they? I suppose they mostly just encourage people to lie or put on an act, which feels pretty disconnected from how things actually work in nature.

What you're describing actually misses the point regarding etiquette; you seem to have drifted a bit off course, haven't you? 🤷

I never had to deal with that kind of pressure when I was coming out of middle school.

Well, good for you—as an individual.

if it's the same in one city, it won't be the same in another country.

Of course, though you could always just exile yourself to Manhattan Island; as long as it doesn't feel like pressure, right? 😉

even a woman who isn't conventionally attractive could find a beach where she won't be mocked.
I know this from personal experience.
so...

That would most likely be some desolate, unkempt stretch of coastline. Back to Manhattan Island again?

there is an entire array of examples in journalism, art, and design that prove the opposite, making this a rather flimsy argument for proving your supposed "intense pressure."
Take a band like Foo Fighters, for instance; nobody forces them to churn out garbage, yet they are incredibly successful and widely listened to.
People value quality, not just mindless fluff and cheap thrills.

There are examples that are increasingly becoming exceptions, which only serves to reinforce the rule I was outlining. I could argue that point quite extensively in a different thread.
If, by sheer coincidence, the leader of the free world happens to be Chinese, you certainly can't conclude that the Chinese people, as a whole, are above average in height.

not really.
all you need is to wear clean, tidy clothes. nothing more.

That is incorrect for many professions and in many different contexts...

I’m glad to hear it.
Most companies don't operate that way—it's definitely an outlier.

I feel the same way. My old firm wasn't exactly a unicorn in that regard, but I have this nagging suspicion—based on what I've seen—that most places you'd end up working are actually quite similar to that one.

None of those rules are "natural."

All I was saying is that things like—offering a seat to a pregnant woman or an elderly person on the subway, helping a blind person cross the street, holding the door for someone loaded down with groceries, or simply wishing another human being good health... to me feels entirely instinctive. In other words, it seems perfectly logical and fundamentally human.

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