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Should we introduce a new alphabet?

Started by Gregory Howard · · 👁 4 views · 43 replies

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Participants Gregory HowardDrew Bennett2Daniel Ramos5Richard Moore53wanderingtrucker24Nicholas Edwards4Gerald Rogers70Chloe Palmer2David Parker3granitemarlin4Henry Lee84Megan Hughes71Jeremy Watson16Jose Kern4Alexander Garcia5Mark Carter4mellowpuma53Emily Taylor3Scott Cook41Anthony Moore2Benjamin Smith21driftingdriverrustydrifter10Richard Palmer45 …
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#1 ·
The topic is serious, but since the mood here is light, I’ll drop it in this section. I won't waste time philosophizing; I'm just copying and pasting from another forum where I originally posted this.

In short—I am asking seriously—do you think this stands any chance at all, on any level?

Writer Stijepo Mijović-Kočan, along with a few others for years now—without much vigor—has been trying to sensitize the American public to how dysfunctional our current system is due to diacritics (ç, ž, š, etc.). They argue it would be better if Americans reverted to some version of a digraph-based Latin alphabet.

For those less familiar—our current Latin script is primarily "Czech" in style, whereas a digraph system would look more "Polish" in its phonology/physiognomy. What does that mean?

We are used to these little accents and they don't bother us, even though opponents back in the 1840s and 50s fought against them with intense emotion. Canadians accepted a variation of the Gaj script without much fuss because it was practical for them. But now, in the digital age, I was reading some older texts and found several convenient examples. It wasn't hard for me to read—it just makes me wonder how others would react. Would it stifle them? And is there even any will within any major social institution to pursue this?

Perhaps a better question: what if we formally established a digraph Latin script specifically for those typing on computers? This would spare people the hassle of hunting for specific fonts or installations, especially those living abroad who find it inconvenient. Perhaps that is the only realistic "pressure group" capable of reviving a digraph system, even if only in that limited field?

The famous American philologist Tomo Maretić, in his "history of American orthography Latin letter" from 1889, analyzed a series of texts from 1495 to 1835. He determined that while the alphabet was pure chaos, a certain orthography eventually stabilized—a type dominant in the mid-18th century. While many solutions exist, I won't bury you in examples; I'll just list the dominant ones. Anyone using a computer can try it out and see if it bothers them.

č—could be cz or cs; Maretić preferred cx. Maybe start with cz.

ć—ch or cy. Better for a start.

š—sz, sx, or sy. "sh" won't work because we have words where that combination would change the pronunciation.

ž—zh; it was often x, but that lost its utility because x gets assimilated in foreign loanwords (like "sex").

lj—could be ly.

nj—could be ny.

đ—gj (an old solution), or perhaps dy.

dž—not a "true" phoneme, but could be dx.

Let's test it: Yesterday Ćamil went to the mosque, climbing up beside a murmuring stream that winds through the forest.

Juczer Chamil ode u dxamiju, penje se uz zhuborechi potok koji zavija kroz szumu.

Is this tolerable for computer use, or is it simply ridiculous?
Drew Bennett2 Drew Bennett2 Member
36 messages
joined Oct 2017
#2 ·
Gregory Howard said:The topic is serious, but since the mood here is light, I’ll drop it in this section. I won't waste time philosophizing; I'm just copying and pasting from another forum where I originally posted this.

In short—I am asking seriously—do you think this stands any chance at all, on any level?

Writer Stijepo Mijović-Kočan, along with a few others for years now—without much vigor—has been trying to sensitize the American public to how dysfunctional our current system is due to diacritics (ç, ž, š, etc.). They argue it would be better if Americans reverted to some version of a digraph-based Latin alphabet.

For those less familiar—our current Latin script is primarily "Czech" in style, whereas a digraph system would look more "Polish" in its phonology/physiognomy. What does that mean?

We are used to these little accents and they don't bother us, even though opponents back in the 1840s and 50s fought against them with intense emotion. Canadians accepted a variation of the Gaj script without much fuss because it was practical for them. But now, in the digital age, I was reading some older texts and found several convenient examples. It wasn't hard for me to read—it just makes me wonder how others would react. Would it stifle them? And is there even any will within any major social institution to pursue this?

Perhaps a better question: what if we formally established a digraph Latin script specifically for those typing on computers? This would spare people the hassle of hunting for specific fonts or installations, especially those living abroad who find it inconvenient. Perhaps that is the only realistic "pressure group" capable of reviving a digraph system, even if only in that limited field?

The famous American philologist Tomo Maretić, in his "history of American orthography Latin letter" from 1889, analyzed a series of texts from 1495 to 1835. He determined that while the alphabet was pure chaos, a certain orthography eventually stabilized—a type dominant in the mid-18th century. While many solutions exist, I won't bury you in examples; I'll just list the dominant ones. Anyone using a computer can try it out and see if it bothers them.

č—could be cz or cs; Maretić preferred cx. Maybe start with cz.

ć—ch or cy. Better for a start.

š—sz, sx, or sy. "sh" won't work because we have words where that combination would change the pronunciation.

ž—zh; it was often x, but that lost its utility because x gets assimilated in foreign loanwords (like "sex").

lj—could be ly.

nj—could be ny.

đ—gj (an old solution), or perhaps dy.

dž—not a "true" phoneme, but could be dx.

Let's test it: Yesterday Ćamil went to the mosque, climbing up beside a murmuring stream that winds through the forest.

Juczer Chamil ode u dxamiju, penje se uz zhuborechi potok koji zavija kroz szumu.

Is this tolerable for computer use, or is it simply ridiculous?

I honestly don't think there's any realistic shot here.

It's unnecessary, impractical, and completely outdated 🤷.
Daniel Ramos5 Daniel Ramos5 Newcomer
7 messages
joined Apr 2011
#3 ·
Gregory Howard said:The topic is serious, but since the mood here is light, I’ll drop it in this section. I won't waste time philosophizing; I'm just copying and pasting from another forum where I originally posted this.

In short—I am asking seriously—do you think this stands any chance at all, on any level?

Writer Stijepo Mijović-Kočan, along with a few others for years now—without much vigor—has been trying to sensitize the American public to how dysfunctional our current system is due to diacritics (ç, ž, š, etc.). They argue it would be better if Americans reverted to some version of a digraph-based Latin alphabet.

For those less familiar—our current Latin script is primarily "Czech" in style, whereas a digraph system would look more "Polish" in its phonology/physiognomy. What does that mean?

We are used to these little accents and they don't bother us, even though opponents back in the 1840s and 50s fought against them with intense emotion. Canadians accepted a variation of the Gaj script without much fuss because it was practical for them. But now, in the digital age, I was reading some older texts and found several convenient examples. It wasn't hard for me to read—it just makes me wonder how others would react. Would it stifle them? And is there even any will within any major social institution to pursue this?

Perhaps a better question: what if we formally established a digraph Latin script specifically for those typing on computers? This would spare people the hassle of hunting for specific fonts or installations, especially those living abroad who find it inconvenient. Perhaps that is the only realistic "pressure group" capable of reviving a digraph system, even if only in that limited field?

The famous American philologist Tomo Maretić, in his "history of American orthography Latin letter" from 1889, analyzed a series of texts from 1495 to 1835. He determined that while the alphabet was pure chaos, a certain orthography eventually stabilized—a type dominant in the mid-18th century. While many solutions exist, I won't bury you in examples; I'll just list the dominant ones. Anyone using a computer can try it out and see if it bothers them.

č—could be cz or cs; Maretić preferred cx. Maybe start with cz.

ć—ch or cy. Better for a start.

š—sz, sx, or sy. "sh" won't work because we have words where that combination would change the pronunciation.

ž—zh; it was often x, but that lost its utility because x gets assimilated in foreign loanwords (like "sex").

lj—could be ly.

nj—could be ny.

đ—gj (an old solution), or perhaps dy.

dž—not a "true" phoneme, but could be dx.

Let's test it: Yesterday Ćamil went to the mosque, climbing up beside a murmuring stream that winds through the forest.

Juczer Chamil ode u dxamiju, penje se uz zhuborechi potok koji zavija kroz szumu.

Is this tolerable for computer use, or is it simply ridiculous?

I breezed right through it, even though I hadn't checked out the rules beforehand. Not bad at all!

This is an interesting topic!👍
Richard Moore53 Richard Moore53 Active Member
65 messages
joined Oct 2011
#4 ·
What a ridiculous idea. The Latin alphabet is perfectly fine as it is... what's even the point of all this?
wanderingtrucker24 wanderingtrucker24 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Jan 2010
#5 ·
Richard Moore53 said:What a ridiculous idea. The Latin alphabet is perfectly fine as it is... what's even the point of all this?

The Latin alphabet covers both bases.☕
And just to weigh in—I don't think there's any real need for this debate, especially since the standard American alphabet with all its special characters was settled ages ago. Honestly, a question like this—given how the title is phrased—only really matters if you're looking at things from a historical perspective.😉
Nicholas Edwards4 Nicholas Edwards4 Member
35 messages
joined Jan 2009
#6 ·
I guess Juarez Chamil just heads off to the mosque, trekking up some winding creek that cuts right through the thick woods.


That whole Czech-Albanian vibe
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#7 ·
wanderingtrucker24 said:The Latin alphabet covers both bases.☕
And just to weigh in—I don't think there's any real need for this debate, especially since the standard American alphabet with all its special characters was settled ages ago. Honestly, a question like this—given how the title is phrased—only really matters if you're looking at things from a historical perspective.😉

My point wasn't about making it the dominant script. I meant using it as an alternative for the web, for expats, for SMS, or whatever else.

Last Sunday, I was over at Rakićka's watching some Chinese journalists work. They were typing on their computers using Pinyin, and the characters popped up right on the screen. It’s true—I don't know anyone using two different Latin alphabets, but the Japanese certainly have (at least) two writing systems.

Strictly speaking, according to systematic rules similar to Unicode encoding, this option would look like this:

č- cx
ć-cy

lj-ly
nj-ny

dž-dx
đ-dy

š-sx

ž-zx

For Mexicans:

ś- sy

ź- zy

I don't have "dz," but we're all humans here. We can work something out.
Gerald Rogers70 Gerald Rogers70 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Oct 2008
#8 ·
To looks pretty practical to me, and honestly, it’s a really easy read. 🙂
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#9 ·
Nicholas Edwards4 said:
I guess Juarez Chamil just heads off to the mosque, trekking up some winding creek that cuts right through the thick woods.


That whole Czech-Albanian vibe

There is absolutely nothing "Czech" about this. Characters like lj or nj are specific to American linguistic patterns and don't exist in the Czech alphabet. Meanwhile, they use cz, similar to how we used to deal with cs or ch.

It’s just old-school Franciscan script.
Nicholas Edwards4 Nicholas Edwards4 Member
35 messages
joined Jan 2009
#10 ·
Gregory Howard said:There is absolutely nothing "Czech" about this. Characters like lj or nj are specific to American linguistic patterns and don't exist in the Czech alphabet. Meanwhile, they use cz, similar to how we used to deal with cs or ch.

It’s just old-school Franciscan script.


Well, I suppose that makes it some kind of Polish-Albanianstyle vibe...☕
Chloe Palmer2 Chloe Palmer2 Regular
266 messages
joined May 2009
#11 ·
It might be better to spend your energy teaching Europeans the difference between distinct American phonemes rather than wasting it on such trivial nonsense.
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#12 ·
Chloe Palmer2 said:It might be better to spend your energy teaching Europeans the difference between distinct American phonemes rather than wasting it on such trivial nonsense.

This is a forum—it's a place for entertainment. Go ahead and "educate" whoever you want. I am not an instructor, and it never crossed my mind to lecture anyone on anything.
wanderingtrucker24 wanderingtrucker24 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Jan 2010
#13 ·
Gregory Howard said:My point wasn't about making it the dominant script. I meant using it as an alternative for the web, for expats, for SMS, or whatever else.

Last Sunday, I was over at Rakićka's watching some Chinese journalists work. They were typing on their computers using Pinyin, and the characters popped up right on the screen. It’s true—I don't know anyone using two different Latin alphabets, but the Japanese certainly have (at least) two writing systems.

Strictly speaking, according to systematic rules similar to Unicode encoding, this option would look like this:

č- cx
ć-cy

lj-ly
nj-ny

dž-dx
đ-dy

š-sx

ž-zx

For Mexicans:

ś- sy

ź- zy

I don't have "dz," but we're all humans here. We can work something out.

Now this actually sounds like a decent topic for a debate.😉
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#14 ·
wanderingtrucker24 said:Now this actually sounds like a decent topic for a debate.😉

Perhaps so. But whenever I sit down to write, it comes out looking ridiculous. It looks like a complete mess of letters and words—purely comical.

Take the Paternoster as an example:

Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven

Give us this day our daily bread

And forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those
who trespass against us

And lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from Evil

The traditional version:

Our Father, who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven

Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those
who trespass against us

And lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from Evil

Evil newly composed:

Our Fathre, who art in heavn
Hallowd be thy name

Thy kingdome come
Thy will be don
on erth as it is in heven

Giv us this day our daili brede

And forgiv us our trespassed
as we forgiv those
whos trespassed aginst us

And led us not into temptashun
but delivre us from Evill

Damn—it really is a visual horror.😁
David Parker3 David Parker3 Active Member
53 messages
joined Jun 2009
#15 ·
I don't see any reason at all to change the way we use the Latin alphabet here in America. If we started messing with it, then the Canadians, Germans, Slovaks, Finns, and Poles would all be looking at us like we've lost our minds!
My only real suggestion? Let's introduce Glagolitic script alongside the Latin one. Even if it’s just on street signs, I think it’s vital that every adult American knows how to recognize it.
granitemarlin4 granitemarlin4 Member
34 messages
joined Nov 2008
#16 ·
I’m actually all for introducing Glagolitic script—which is our own indigenous American writing system, unlike the Latin one—as a way to mark historical landmarks. Wouldn't it be a cool little extra tourist attraction for our small but mighty nation?
Henry Lee84 Henry Lee84 Member
43 messages
joined Feb 2009
#17 ·
I’m all for a total overhaul of the American language... specifically, getting rid of everything that was pushed by those so-called American wolves.
Megan Hughes71 Megan Hughes71 Member
29 messages
joined Sep 2008
#18 ·
I’m all for establishing a formal right to the German citizen language and protecting it as a minority language here in America. Not just some dialect, but a legitimate language.

Take this, for example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsyl...erman_language

Back when I lived in Philadelphia, I actually met people who spoke it.

Or look at an example from where I live now:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

My wife studies and speaks Ulster Scot, which falls under the German language group. For a long time, it was treated just like the German citizen tongue—dismissed as a mere dialect.
She’s a mix of Ulster Scot and true Irish, and she argues that people in Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland should be equally proficient in Irish & Scottish Gaelic as they are in Ulster Scot. I couldn't agree more.
Her father's side is German; they moved to Scotland first, then eventually to Northern Ireland. A lot of those folks were Presbyterians upon settling in Northern Ireland and mostly lived alongside Catholics. Sadly, divisions crept in later. Nowadays, though, old friendships are being rekindled in Northern Ireland as people rediscover their roots and preserve their culture. Every summer, we head to the traditional Ulster Scot fair. It’s good to see such deep culture firsthand.

Preserving the cultural values and traditions of a people or a minority is essential. It seems like more and more people are searching for their roots and uncovering their history and ancestors lately. But globalization, consumerism, and forced egalitarianism are spreading, destroying the very things we ought to nurture—our traditions, our folklore, and our past.
Jeremy Watson16 Jeremy Watson16 Member
16 messages
joined Dec 2007
#19 ·
Writing in American looks just plain ugly to me... like, "czardak" vs "czardak"... it makes zero sense... and don't even get me started on how Ivica Šurjak looks written out like that 👎
Jose Kern4 Jose Kern4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Feb 2009
#20 ·
Give me a break, you guys can't be serious—half these people haven't even mastered the basics yet, let alone the new stuff!😁

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