Do you have to be ruthless to succeed? How do the "good guys" fare?

analogviper9 said:Oh, really? Now, I strongly disagree! I think it is absolutely an economic question. If you treat someone well, there is a much higher statistical probability that they will return the favor down the road. Of course, you shouldn't be a good person just for the sake of the ROI—you do it for the greater good!

If someone treats me poorly, it implies that I should act the same way toward others. But surely, a person behaving badly won't serve as my role model? Quite the opposite—they become the very example of what I refuse to become.

Lawrence Bailey77 said:What has always stuck with me is the notion that the good is inherently good in its own right without needing any extra layers of calculation, valuation, or external assessment

Similarly, the problem of evil as a philosophical "question"—and please forgive me, as I consider myself a mere amateur when it comes to philosophy—objectively precludes any generalization of good or evil. It seems to reduce everything down to personal experience, or rather, one's individual perspective on how various phenomena or relationships exist within the world we inhabit.

Personally, when looking at nature—specifically regarding natural relationships and laws—I find a certain "logic of survival." I view the biological process itself as a form of good, along with the ways in which that life can be actively influenced to become more comfortable.😉

Human constructs, in my estimation, are heavily influenced by local cultures and the attempt to satisfy infantile needs. Consequently, they are riddled with absurdity and insecurity, which leads to numerous societal "losses" throughout the course of life... any kind of morality, regardless of its form, often costs a person their very existence, and don't even get me started on dogmas.🤮

Hey analogviper9, I fixed your slip-up...
I'll try to pull this whole response together, though honestly, I doubt I'll even pull it off... 🙂

There’s this great German concept that might actually help me explain this—*wertfrei*. Honestly, the best way to put it in English would be a total liberation from all those preconceived notions... just being completely stripped of any baggage or past experiences you carry around. It’s not about being "neutral" or "objective," and it sure as hell isn't just being unbiased. It’s more like taking an explicit, intentional stance... which is exactly why I used the word dogma, even if that wasn't the most perfect choice of words...

I was just talking about the stuff I believe in blindly... you know, things that are totally objective and beyond debate...
Look, I'm not even asking questions here—I'm just laying it all out on the table... is it actually worth being a total shark? Or do the straight shooters actually make it in this life? Like, does karma actually exist or is it all just a scam? Is it better to be the good guy, the bad guy, or just plain evil... kind of like those old gritty Western movies... 😉 Questions like that are just a waste of time and only serve to muddy the waters... I'm not getting dragged into some black-and-white Manichean bullshit or any pathetic attempts at "objectivity"...

I'm not even that ambitious or full of myself, honestly... I'm just straight up exhausted from my own lack of discipline and all the stupid mistakes I keep making...

So I just choose to believe there's actually some kind of point to all this madness... even if science says otherwise. It’s way easier on my soul that way, honestly. Makes me feel less like Sisyphus pushing that rock up a hill forever... just imagining my life isn't totally pointless. Even if I am being a bit much about it... 🙂

gentlelynx11 said:Yeah, this definitely isn't a topic for psychology.

Lawrence Bailey77, how do you personally experience these questions? Is there a need to be meticulous here? And if so, what kind of need are we actually talking about?

And then there's the phrase, "How do the untainted fare?" What does "faring" actually mean in this context—through what, and under what conditions? And who, exactly, are these "untainted" people?

Perhaps not right now, but in the long run, I suspect everything will eventually interconnect, leaving much more room for meaningful answers to these questions

Lawrence Bailey77, how do you perceive these questions: Is it necessary to be unscrupulous? What kind of "need" are we actually talking about here?

I view them somewhat dismissively... as clumsily packaged excuses for succumbing to certain unfortunate circumstances of conformism, and a desperate need to justify or seek approval for the consequences

It’s like when someone asks... "Well, would you commit a Murder if you 'had' to?"
And then they start listing all these options and scenarios, where the sole purpose seems to be nudging the respondent toward approving or rationalizing a Murder! 🙂

The "need" is simply to wash one's hands of the matter... I believe there is a term for this, "collective responsibility"... I haven't studied it extensively, though I must admit I have never actually used the word "unscrupulous" in my own life, so who knows😬

And "How do the innocent fare?"

Categorization... assessments... a political rally☕

What is meant by "faring" (through what? under what conditions?)

To "fare" is to perform... staying under the radar, I suppose... whether you get caught red-handed or manage to "slip past unnoticed to the target"

and who exactly are these "innocent" people?

Those with healthy teeth😬 and clean hands... usually thin👏 I had to inject a little humor... the questions themselves are valid and sufficient to convey the message👍

Nancy Lee84 said:Hey analogviper9, I fixed your slip-up...
I'll try to pull this whole response together, though honestly, I doubt I'll even pull it off... 🙂

There’s this great German concept that might actually help me explain this—*wertfrei*. Honestly, the best way to put it in English would be a total liberation from all those preconceived notions... just being completely stripped of any baggage or past experiences you carry around. It’s not about being "neutral" or "objective," and it sure as hell isn't just being unbiased. It’s more like taking an explicit, intentional stance... which is exactly why I used the word dogma, even if that wasn't the most perfect choice of words...

I was just talking about the stuff I believe in blindly... you know, things that are totally objective and beyond debate...
Look, I'm not even asking questions here—I'm just laying it all out on the table... is it actually worth being a total shark? Or do the straight shooters actually make it in this life? Like, does karma actually exist or is it all just a scam? Is it better to be the good guy, the bad guy, or just plain evil... kind of like those old gritty Western movies... 😉 Questions like that are just a waste of time and only serve to muddy the waters... I'm not getting dragged into some black-and-white Manichean bullshit or any pathetic attempts at "objectivity"...

I'm not even that ambitious or full of myself, honestly... I'm just straight up exhausted from my own lack of discipline and all the stupid mistakes I keep making...

So I just choose to believe there's actually some kind of point to all this madness... even if science says otherwise. It’s way easier on my soul that way, honestly. Makes me feel less like Sisyphus pushing that rock up a hill forever... just imagining my life isn't totally pointless. Even if I am being a bit much about it... 🙂

I suppose I would still be willing to go at it... if necessary, I don't mind performing tasks in a Sisyphus-like fashion, I guess. There really isn't a "problem" on my end. 😬

Donna White50 said:My own experience tells me that the most important thing is really the crowd you hang out with and the environment you grow up in. You've gotta keep in mind that you can't have a real conversation with an idiot—so, you aren't going to get anything positive out of bad people, and it works the same way for the good ones.
So, yeah, be picky about your friends and inner circle. In other parts of life where you're forced to deal with all sorts of losers, you just have to learn how to set boundaries. As kind, genuine people, we become prime targets for those who've learned how to exploit others... and those types love finding easy prey...

I think I'm going to raise my kids with that mindset—teaching them to respect everyone, but above all, to respect themselves... even if that means giving someone a taste of their own medicine when they deserve it.

Well, I totally agree. I assume most people already know how to set boundaries with strangers (like coworkers or casual acquaintances...) and I don't think that specific part causes too much trouble for the average person.
The real kicker, however, is when someone you actually love or someone close to you exploits your good intentions or treats you like an idiot.

Nancy Lee84 said:Hey analogviper9, I fixed your slip-up...
I'll try to pull this whole response together, though honestly, I doubt I'll even pull it off... 🙂

There’s this great German concept that might actually help me explain this—*wertfrei*. Honestly, the best way to put it in English would be a total liberation from all those preconceived notions... just being completely stripped of any baggage or past experiences you carry around. It’s not about being "neutral" or "objective," and it sure as hell isn't just being unbiased. It’s more like taking an explicit, intentional stance... which is exactly why I used the word dogma, even if that wasn't the most perfect choice of words...

I was just talking about the stuff I believe in blindly... you know, things that are totally objective and beyond debate...
Look, I'm not even asking questions here—I'm just laying it all out on the table... is it actually worth being a total shark? Or do the straight shooters actually make it in this life? Like, does karma actually exist or is it all just a scam? Is it better to be the good guy, the bad guy, or just plain evil... kind of like those old gritty Western movies... 😉 Questions like that are just a waste of time and only serve to muddy the waters... I'm not getting dragged into some black-and-white Manichean bullshit or any pathetic attempts at "objectivity"...

I'm not even that ambitious or full of myself, honestly... I'm just straight up exhausted from my own lack of discipline and all the stupid mistakes I keep making...

So I just choose to believe there's actually some kind of point to all this madness... even if science says otherwise. It’s way easier on my soul that way, honestly. Makes me feel less like Sisyphus pushing that rock up a hill forever... just imagining my life isn't totally pointless. Even if I am being a bit much about it... 🙂

Thanks for the correction.

Hmm, but that doesn't quite satisfy me. I agree that there are times when one should be neutral. But to me, that feels more like leaning toward indifference.
I honestly can't say whether that’s truly a "good" solution or not—though, then again, maybe it works just fine for you personally?
But here is the thing: if others observe you acting completely indifferent in a given situation, they might just follow your lead! And if everyone starts mimicking that lack of concern, we’ll eventually find ourselves living in a society full of indifferent people who simply couldn't care less about one another.

analogviper9 said:In my view, you simply cannot fake being a genuinely good person. Once someone gains a bit of real-world experience, their true colors inevitably come out to play.

Regarding society at large, I've noticed a pattern: individuals with weak characters or low self-esteem tend to cling heavily to corrupt people.
It's because they eventually morph into that very same type of person themselves.
Perhaps it's fear—they see that perceived power and think they need to be near it to survive.

Speaking from experience, I truly believe it pays to be a good, moral person—but *only* if you back that goodness up with a backbone! If you are "good" but lack a firm stance, people will simply walk all over you.

Malice always finds its way back to haunt you, and let's face it: those kinds of people rarely enjoy a clear conscience. So, isn't it much better to sleep soundly at night knowing you've surrounded yourself with people who are actually well-meaning?

There is no "pays off" vs "doesn't pay off." It’s either you're one of them or you're one of us, period.
The second you start looking for a payoff, you've already joined their side. We aren't about profit; we're about ideals.

The only debate is whether you're intentionally garbage or if you just stumbled into it by mistake.

Honestly, we're all a little bit garbage sometimes; some people just admit it, while others...

velvetstag5 said:There is no "pays off" vs "doesn't pay off." It’s either you're one of them or you're one of us, period.
The second you start looking for a payoff, you've already joined their side. We aren't about profit; we're about ideals.

The only debate is whether you're intentionally garbage or if you just stumbled into it by mistake.

Honestly, we're all a little bit garbage sometimes; some people just admit it, while others...

From what I can see, we make a choice every single day. We get to decide whether to be decent human beings or complete villains. As for this whole "profitability" argument—I truly believe that, deep down, every human soul leans toward something higher. And let's be honest: it's nearly impossible to reach any kind of greatness through sheer malice.

analogviper9 said:From what I can see, we make a choice every single day. We get to decide whether to be decent human beings or complete villains. As for this whole "profitability" argument—I truly believe that, deep down, every human soul leans toward something higher. And let's be honest: it's nearly impossible to reach any kind of greatness through sheer malice.

"Higher"? You mean like... how do you even define that?
It's about free will; making a choice; not "having" brain cancer...

ironrider11 said:"Higher"? You mean like... how do you even define that?
It's about free will; making a choice; not "having" brain cancer...

We are discussing things that are within our sphere of influence! One of those things—crucially—is our own attitude and how we conduct ourselves. You don't get a vote in whether you develop cancer, but you absolutely have the power to decide whether to be a decent person or something else entirely.

So, have we officially decided what counts as being broken before we wrap this up?🕺