Liberation as the goal. But for what?

placidharbor7 said:

Mark Twain says:


CHAPTER XI
THE MYSTERIOUS STRANGER

"It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream - a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought - a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"

He vanished, and left me appalled; for I knew, and realized, that all he had said was true.😁😁😁

Mr. Twain lingers a bit too long on that whole "dream" concept—honestly, it might have been better if he hadn't stumbled upon it at all!
As long as there is even one single "station" or "anchor" to hold onto, I say we just hang this kind of nihilism out to dry, my fellow Truth Seekers!

And Twain kicked the bucket before he even finished that work, haha.😁😁

So, what's this "stronghold" supposed to be?🙄

jademarlin26 said:What was the point of all those eons of evolution if we are just meant to be stones? One can breathe deeply and still remain unattached, refusing to be swept up by existence. Perhaps the secret to non-attachment lies precisely in the absurdity of it all—living simply for the sake of living, rather than chasing some grand purpose.

As for sadness, it is an inevitability in this temporal realm we inhabit. It is perfectly natural to feel sorrow when loss is baked into our daily reality, where one life is built upon the passing of another. Rather than fleeing from it, one should simply come to terms with it.

Our little back-and-forth discussions here are just as pointless, yet we persist. 😉 There is an answer buried somewhere in that contradiction, but what good does it do when the "I" keeps popping up? "I want this," or "I feel that." This persistent, annoying "I" constantly insists there is a connection between myself and everything "outside" of me, even though I haven't the slightest clue who I actually am. It's pure madness. 🙂

Last night, I dreamed I was homeless, and once again, I felt that familiar anxiety about where I’d sleep and how I’d survive. No matter how much or how little one possesses, there always seems to be some trivial distraction preventing true freedom of being. It feels like every resistance is futile. If only one could simply let the current take them, wherever it might lead...🤔

ironharbor8 said:Our little back-and-forth discussions here are just as pointless, yet we persist. 😉 There is an answer buried somewhere in that contradiction, but what good does it do when the "I" keeps popping up? "I want this," or "I feel that." This persistent, annoying "I" constantly insists there is a connection between myself and everything "outside" of me, even though I haven't the slightest clue who I actually am. It's pure madness. 🙂

Last night, I dreamed I was homeless, and once again, I felt that familiar anxiety about where I’d sleep and how I’d survive. No matter how much or how little one possesses, there always seems to be some trivial distraction preventing true freedom of being. It feels like every resistance is futile. If only one could simply let the current take them, wherever it might lead...🤔

In my estimation, that is perhaps the wisest thing said in this entire thread.
The moment you find yourself dwelling on those thoughts—even if they come wrapped in questions—I suspect there is no fear left to be found...

ironharbor8 said:Our little back-and-forth discussions here are just as pointless, yet we persist. 😉 There is an answer buried somewhere in that contradiction, but what good does it do when the "I" keeps popping up? "I want this," or "I feel that." This persistent, annoying "I" constantly insists there is a connection between myself and everything "outside" of me, even though I haven't the slightest clue who I actually am. It's pure madness. 🙂

Last night, I dreamed I was homeless, and once again, I felt that familiar anxiety about where I’d sleep and how I’d survive. No matter how much or how little one possesses, there always seems to be some trivial distraction preventing true freedom of being. It feels like every resistance is futile. If only one could simply let the current take them, wherever it might lead...🤔

you will eventually reach that point 😉
even without reading Rhonda Byrne

I am actually reading *The Secret* for the first time... it is quite interesting how she speaks from her own lived experience.
For her, as it was for me once upon a time, that process unfolded entirely spontaneously... back when I would go looking for something destructive... some nonsense on the internet that would only plant seeds of doubt in my mind... and then, out of nowhere, my computer would simply shut down... just like that...
Yet, at other times, positive links from my favorites would open up seemingly by accident... truly, one time, a link opened itself... a mouse click occurred when I hadn't even touched the device... how? Who knows.
To me, all of this felt perfectly normal. ☕
Had it been someone else, or perhaps myself in the past, such things might have caused a shock.

What I mean to say is, once that "liberation" begins, it moves forward effortlessly... and seeing as you possess these internal impulses, I see there is no fear.😉

placidharbor7 said:

Mark Twain says:


CHAPTER XI
THE MYSTERIOUS STRANGER

"It is true, that which I have revealed to you; there is no God, no universe, no human race, no earthly life, no heaven, no hell. It is all a dream - a grotesque and foolish dream. Nothing exists but you. And you are but a thought - a vagrant thought, a useless thought, a homeless thought, wandering forlorn among the empty eternities!"

He vanished, and left me appalled; for I knew, and realized, that all he had said was true.😁😁😁

Mr. Twain lingers a bit too long on that whole "dream" concept—honestly, it might have been better if he hadn't stumbled upon it at all!
As long as there is even one single "station" or "anchor" to hold onto, I say we just hang this kind of nihilism out to dry, my fellow Truth Seekers!

Isn't your own stronghold just an "imagined lack of a stronghold"? 😉🙄😁

I want to say... I don't think there are any actual steps here, no sharp edges or sudden thresholds...

It’s more about learning to navigate this "universe," this sense of balance that is CONSTANTLY SHIFTING AND REFORMING!!

No sacrifices required, no long distances to travel.
Someone was telling me that in Buddhist traditions, the final test before reaching "Nirvana" is the refusal to be enslaved by the very act of not being enslaved—and apparently, that's where so many people stumble...
In my own journey so far, I haven't leaned on a single spiritual technique or even finished a whole book—honestly, I suspect that TECHNIQUES, FORMS, and things like that are precisely what lead to stagnation.

Spirituality is simply living life to its absolute fullest.
For instance, I’ve never sat in a lotus position for long periods; if I have, it’s been with my eyes open, maybe with some music playing or something... yet I am progressing perfectly... because progress needs to happen R E A L L Y from within.
Take me now, for example; I’m not doing anything particularly "smart," and I could probably meditate quite well, but my free-spirited nature just gets in the way.
And I’ve made peace with that. Now I see that it’s actually BECAUSE OF THAT that I’m moving forward—because I don't force myself into something that feels unnatural.

I don't doubt that one day I might sit in a lotus position for an entire hour, but that will only happen when it feels COMPLETELY natural. Until then, I don't need it.

steeleagle13 said:Isn't your own stronghold just an "imagined lack of a stronghold"? 😉🙄😁

Everything we call a "fact" or a "belief" is really just a collection of words, thoughts, and lived experiences—basically, it’s all just us sitting around chatting! Even when we dive into deep topics like spirituality, isn't it all just part of that same human flow? When we open our mouths to speak, we're really just weaving together everything we think we know into something new. Isn't that fascinating?
"Lack of support" is really just another way of describing that sense of "emptiness" you hear about when people talk about New York City! I could go on about it forever!
It’s really only for those who have actually found themselves staring into that "void" at least once in their lives. I know, I know—it sounds completely illogical, totally senseless, and honestly, just plain empty. But isn't that exactly how it feels?

But seriously, what actually gives an Awakened person their credibility? Is it just that quiet hunch a Seeker gets—that nagging feeling that the Awakened is talking about something they’ve truly, undeniably "lived through"? It’s that sense that even if they can't quite pin it down into a news report or a detailed description of an "experience," there's still a profound truth behind their words. After all, isn't it the Seeker, rather than the Awakened, who struggles most with how to put those feelings into words? It’s that inherent leaning within a Seeker toward...
These "metaphysical" reports aren't just a mirror reflecting what's happening deep inside him; they also act as a bit of an incentive for the Awakened one to just keep rambling on forever! Honestly, it’s such a strange way to communicate, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any other way to go about it. Isn't it wild how that works?

Hey there, master! Just a friendly heads-up: don't forget that absolutely everything being said right now is a total lie.

placidharbor7 said:Everything we call a "fact" or a "belief" is really just a collection of words, thoughts, and lived experiences—basically, it’s all just us sitting around chatting! Even when we dive into deep topics like spirituality, isn't it all just part of that same human flow? When we open our mouths to speak, we're really just weaving together everything we think we know into something new. Isn't that fascinating?
"Lack of support" is really just another way of describing that sense of "emptiness" you hear about when people talk about New York City! I could go on about it forever!
It’s really only for those who have actually found themselves staring into that "void" at least once in their lives. I know, I know—it sounds completely illogical, totally senseless, and honestly, just plain empty. But isn't that exactly how it feels?

But seriously, what actually gives an Awakened person their credibility? Is it just that quiet hunch a Seeker gets—that nagging feeling that the Awakened is talking about something they’ve truly, undeniably "lived through"? It’s that sense that even if they can't quite pin it down into a news report or a detailed description of an "experience," there's still a profound truth behind their words. After all, isn't it the Seeker, rather than the Awakened, who struggles most with how to put those feelings into words? It’s that inherent leaning within a Seeker toward...
These "metaphysical" reports aren't just a mirror reflecting what's happening deep inside him; they also act as a bit of an incentive for the Awakened one to just keep rambling on forever! Honestly, it’s such a strange way to communicate, and unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any other way to go about it. Isn't it wild how that works?

Hey there, master! Just a friendly heads-up: don't forget that absolutely everything being said right now is a total lie.

What makes an awakened person convincing is ONLY AND ONLY THE SEEKER !!! If that seeker FEELS what the awakened one is talking about!!!!!
In that moment, the seeker is essentially awakened too. They can feel it intuitively without needing anything to be clear; time passes until it clicks, until that specific "consciousness" crystallizes and they finally understand what the awakened one was getting at...
we could call it synchronicity...
A master's teaching is worth absolutely nothing 😁 in terms of one's own "experience" of emptiness, unless maybe it counts for him 😁—which would make it just as worthless as all the empty religions in the world. Take the Buddha, for example; he claims to have experienced something, and now people have been bowing to him for 2,500 years.😉

Master, don't forget—everything that is said is a LIE.

And Truth at the same time. 😁
If this specific shell (this little universe) weren't the way it is, it could destroy itself (from within itself)—meaning the mind wouldn't be indestructible (the consciousness), and everything mentioned in that book from the Himalayas in the first post of this thread could actually happen. But the "shell" of the "mind" is eternal, whereas "experiences of emptiness" DO NOT last forever, haha. So those are just experiences and lies (and truth) too.😲

steeleagle13 said:What makes an awakened person convincing is ONLY AND ONLY THE SEEKER !!! If that seeker FEELS what the awakened one is talking about!!!!!
In that moment, the seeker is essentially awakened too. They can feel it intuitively without needing anything to be clear; time passes until it clicks, until that specific "consciousness" crystallizes and they finally understand what the awakened one was getting at...
we could call it synchronicity...
A master's teaching is worth absolutely nothing 😁 in terms of one's own "experience" of emptiness, unless maybe it counts for him 😁—which would make it just as worthless as all the empty religions in the world. Take the Buddha, for example; he claims to have experienced something, and now people have been bowing to him for 2,500 years.😉

Master, don't forget—everything that is said is a LIE.

And Truth at the same time. 😁
If this specific shell (this little universe) weren't the way it is, it could destroy itself (from within itself)—meaning the mind wouldn't be indestructible (the consciousness), and everything mentioned in that book from the Himalayas in the first post of this thread could actually happen. But the "shell" of the "mind" is eternal, whereas "experiences of emptiness" DO NOT last forever, haha. So those are just experiences and lies (and truth) too.😲

Master, "ineffability" goes beyond both lies and truths equally. There’s really no need to label the obvious impossibility of describing a certain "state" as either a lie or a truth. You'd only ever do that if you were trying to bridge the gap when communicating with a seeker.

Maybe we don't even need to let go of anything?😵

How can you say that? 😉 Those who view life as a burden feel an inherent need to be liberated from it. Most holy books conveniently manufacture a crisis at the beginning just so they can offer a solution at the end, convincing you that it's exactly what you need.

I wouldn't say holy books are the problem, per se. They can actually be pretty useful up to a certain point. I mean, if you look at them as symbolism to help you find freedom—or, I guess, to pull everything from the outside into your inner self—then they can work. It’s about becoming more aware of your higher Self, which is who you actually are. I agree with you, though, that they don't just hand you the answers. The actual solution for finding that freedom, or doing that internal shift, lies within the person. Not the physical body, but the one inhabiting it. The part of you tucked away inside. Some people call it the spirit, the soul, or whatever else.

jademarlin26 said:How can you say that? 😉 Those who view life as a burden feel an inherent need to be liberated from it. Most holy books conveniently manufacture a crisis at the beginning just so they can offer a solution at the end, convincing you that it's exactly what you need.

It’s honestly no surprise that satori is often described as "dropping the burden," and why it’s frequently accompanied by laughter. I mean, it really is kind of hilarious once you realize that everything was perfectly fine from the jump—the only actual issue was believing you had a problem in the first place, a problem that someone else, or some "holy book," promised could fix for you.

casualmoose82 said:I wouldn't say holy books are the problem, per se. They can actually be pretty useful up to a certain point. I mean, if you look at them as symbolism to help you find freedom—or, I guess, to pull everything from the outside into your inner self—then they can work. It’s about becoming more aware of your higher Self, which is who you actually are. I agree with you, though, that they don't just hand you the answers. The actual solution for finding that freedom, or doing that internal shift, lies within the person. Not the physical body, but the one inhabiting it. The part of you tucked away inside. Some people call it the spirit, the soul, or whatever else.

Look, there’s a perfect example right there where the language itself reveals the flaw... "the one who carries the body"... it sounds like some poor soul "trapped" inside their own sack of bones and meat, dragging it around like it's a punishment... as if the body and the soul aren't one and the same. It’s like treating them as two separate entities that are constantly bothering one another. It's pure schizophrenia.🙂

@Edward Flores4, look, when you quote someone, just quote the whole thing instead of cherry-picking bits out of context. And calling me schizophrenic? Honestly, you'll have to answer for that—not to me, and not even to God, however you view Him—but to yourself. I guess all that outside knowledge you've gathered, whatever form it takes, is useful and might actually help you on your Path. That’s basically what freedom of choice is about. As for whether the soul and body are one and the same, that’s your own mental construct; I wouldn't even bother commenting on it, I'll just say—it's your call.

A wise person knows better than to judge others, because in doing so, they've already judged themselves....

casualmoose82 said:@Edward Flores4, look, when you quote someone, just quote the whole thing instead of cherry-picking bits out of context. And calling me schizophrenic? Honestly, you'll have to answer for that—not to me, and not even to God, however you view Him—but to yourself. I guess all that outside knowledge you've gathered, whatever form it takes, is useful and might actually help you on your Path. That’s basically what freedom of choice is about. As for whether the soul and body are one and the same, that’s your own mental construct; I wouldn't even bother commenting on it, I'll just say—it's your call.

A wise person knows better than to judge others, because in doing so, they've already judged themselves....

What does "judging" mean to you specifically, and why is self-condemnation considered a negative outcome? How exactly is it harmful?

casualmoose82 said:@Edward Flores4, look, when you quote someone, just quote the whole thing instead of cherry-picking bits out of context. And calling me schizophrenic? Honestly, you'll have to answer for that—not to me, and not even to God, however you view Him—but to yourself. I guess all that outside knowledge you've gathered, whatever form it takes, is useful and might actually help you on your Path. That’s basically what freedom of choice is about. As for whether the soul and body are one and the same, that’s your own mental construct; I wouldn't even bother commenting on it, I'll just say—it's your call.

A wise person knows better than to judge others, because in doing so, they've already judged themselves....

Honestly, I’m struggling to see how the idea of "becoming more aware of your Higher Self" could be anything other than schizophrenic in this context.🤷

The fact that you labeled me a schizophrenic—well, you'll have to answer for that. Not to me, and not even to God, regardless of how you perceive or don't perceive Him, but to yourself.

Schizophrenia is really just a byproduct of being literate, so we’re all a little bit schizophrenic in our own way... some more than others. There’s really no need to get all worked up about it.

Any external knowledge, in whatever form it takes, is useful and can assist you on your Path. That’s what freedom of choice is all about.

See, all knowledge is just the past, and making choices through the lens of the past is nothing more than a meaningless loop of repeating that same past. Besides... having a choice isn't actually freedom. Real freedom is when there is no choice left to make.

Whether the soul and the body are one and the same is your own mental construct—I wouldn't even bother commenting on it, I'll just say: You say.

How sharp-witted.🙄
Of course I say it... just like everything you say—you say it. And just like everything I say—I say it.☕

A wise man knows it isn't right to judge another, because by doing so, he has already judged himself...

What exactly is so "wise" about a sentiment that anyone can boil down into such a shallow generalization?

If that were true, everyone would be a sage. A truly wise person is someone who knows how to judge correctly, and a brave, wise person is the one who actually does it when they feel it's necessary.

Refraining from judgment is just postmodern relativism—it's cowardice and a lack of critical thinking wrapped up in a mutual expectation of staying quiet.

So yes—I say.🤣

jademarlin26 said:What was the point of all those eons of evolution if we are just meant to be stones? One can breathe deeply and still remain unattached, refusing to be swept up by existence. Perhaps the secret to non-attachment lies precisely in the absurdity of it all—living simply for the sake of living, rather than chasing some grand purpose.

As for sadness, it is an inevitability in this temporal realm we inhabit. It is perfectly natural to feel sorrow when loss is baked into our daily reality, where one life is built upon the passing of another. Rather than fleeing from it, one should simply come to terms with it.

Isn't that just another concept we cling to, one that merely gives us the illusion of mental freedom? It certainly feels more comfortable to believe the entire universe reshaped itself for our benefit, making us unique stars in an infinite expanse. It’s much easier than believing in concepts like inherent flaw, life as suffering, or divine judgment after death. But isn't that just another modern idea adopted by today's logical skeptic? Perhaps people embrace these notions just to navigate a life defined by transience and lack of meaning. Could the very act of clinging to such an idea be, in its essence, the ultimate form of non-attachment?

Edward Flores4 said:It’s honestly no surprise that satori is often described as "dropping the burden," and why it’s frequently accompanied by laughter. I mean, it really is kind of hilarious once you realize that everything was perfectly fine from the jump—the only actual issue was believing you had a problem in the first place, a problem that someone else, or some "holy book," promised could fix for you.

Look, there’s a perfect example right there where the language itself reveals the flaw... "the one who carries the body"... it sounds like some poor soul "trapped" inside their own sack of bones and meat, dragging it around like it's a punishment... as if the body and the soul aren't one and the same. It’s like treating them as two separate entities that are constantly bothering one another. It's pure schizophrenia.🙂

No, you just don't get what kind of "trapped" we're actually talking about here. 😉😁

steeleagle13 said:No, you just don't get what kind of "trapped" we're actually talking about here. 😉😁

Just show me who’s got you held captive, and I’ll set you free!

Edward Flores4 said:Just show me who’s got you held captive, and I’ll set you free!

Archimedes, stick to your circles.

Edward Flores4 said:Honestly, I’m struggling to see how the idea of "becoming more aware of your Higher Self" could be anything other than schizophrenic in this context.🤷

The fact that you labeled me a schizophrenic—well, you'll have to answer for that. Not to me, and not even to God, regardless of how you perceive or don't perceive Him, but to yourself.

Schizophrenia is really just a byproduct of being literate, so we’re all a little bit schizophrenic in our own way... some more than others. There’s really no need to get all worked up about it.

Any external knowledge, in whatever form it takes, is useful and can assist you on your Path. That’s what freedom of choice is all about.

See, all knowledge is just the past, and making choices through the lens of the past is nothing more than a meaningless loop of repeating that same past. Besides... having a choice isn't actually freedom. Real freedom is when there is no choice left to make.

Whether the soul and the body are one and the same is your own mental construct—I wouldn't even bother commenting on it, I'll just say: You say.

How sharp-witted.🙄
Of course I say it... just like everything you say—you say it. And just like everything I say—I say it.☕

A wise man knows it isn't right to judge another, because by doing so, he has already judged himself...

What exactly is so "wise" about a sentiment that anyone can boil down into such a shallow generalization?

If that were true, everyone would be a sage. A truly wise person is someone who knows how to judge correctly, and a brave, wise person is the one who actually does it when they feel it's necessary.

Refraining from judgment is just postmodern relativism—it's cowardice and a lack of critical thinking wrapped up in a mutual expectation of staying quiet.

So yes—I say.🤣

Well, I'm glad you're owning up to it; it definitely shows in your writing.👍
I suppose anyone who admits it deserves to be taken seriously.😲

It just seems weird to me that the mod lets these kinds of diagnoses slide while deleting stuff that's actually funny.🙄
If you're going to be a moderator, maybe just do the job properly for once.☕