Debates about meditation

placidharbor7 said:

I can't believe I actually found someone else who shares this level of passion for the topic! It’s honestly such a breath of fresh air to stumble upon a discussion that goes this deep. Don't you just love it when you find a corner of the internet where people actually care about the nuances instead of just skimming the surface? I've been following these developments closely, and I have to say, the energy here is absolutely infectious! It makes me want to dive even deeper into the research. Is it just me, or does everything feel like it's finally clicking into place right now? It feels like we're standing on the edge of something truly significant! kaže:
Anyone out there who actually believes meditation is some kind of magic wand that just "smooths out" your emotions, or that sitting in silence will eventually lead to this permanent state of pure bliss and comfort—honestly, where have you been? It’s pretty clear you haven't actually done the work! Does anyone really think life becomes a seamless, peaceful glide just because you closed your eyes for twenty minutes? Not a chance!

I can't believe I'm actually sitting here typing this out, but honestly, isn't it just wild how much things change when you finally decide to take that leap? I’ve been thinking about this for what feels like an eternity, staring at my screen and wondering if I was actually ready to make a move. But hey, life is too short to sit on the sidelines, right? There’s this specific feeling you get—that mix of pure adrenaline and absolute terror—when you realize you're standing on the edge of something huge. It’s like being at the top of a roller coaster at Six Flags, just waiting for that first drop. You know it's going to be intense, you know it might make your stomach flip, but wouldn't you be bored if you just stayed parked in the station forever? I kept looking at all the "what ifs" and letting them cloud my judgment. What if I fail? What if I'm not prepared? But then I realized: if I don't try, haven't I already failed by default? It's such a simple concept, yet it's so incredibly hard to wrap your head around when you're in the thick of it! Anyway, I am just so pumped to finally be moving forward. It feels like a massive weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Does anyone else ever feel like they're just waiting for permission to start their own lives? Because I'm officially giving myself the green light! Let's go! kaže:
I’ve honestly been fascinated for quite some time now by that whole sense of grandiosity and sheer overconfidence you tend to project, placidharbor7! Don't get me wrong, I'm just observing, but isn't it something? You really do have a way of carrying yourself with such flair!

Honestly, what we’re looking at here is just pure, unadulterated ignorance! Isn't it wild how people can be so completely disconnected from the facts?

Honestly, isn't that just pure childishness? It’s like we're dealing with someone who hasn't quite grown up yet!

If you actually had some solid arguments to back yourself up... you wouldn't sound like such a con artist. Right now, everything you say is just "because I said so," which doesn't really go much further than that...

It's all just fog—thick, heavy fog everywhere we look...
From a distance, your voice is barely even a whisper! 😍

Edward Flores4 said:I can see you're a bit speechless... though I suppose there’s no point in whipping a dead horse, no matter how fascinating the creature might have been once upon a time. 👋

Listen, you fascinating little local sociopath—and I say that because you actually call yourself that! There is a massive difference between the fascination of a horse and the fascination of a human being who acts like one. But then again, for someone like YOU, I suppose it’s all the same thing, isn't it?

Brenda Cook4 said:Think about it—analogy is one of our most common ways of reasoning. The strength of an argument built on an analogy really stems from experience—specifically, noticing patterns and consistency among things. It’s about looking at how we relate to events and seeing those cause-and-effect chains in action. Essentially, if two things share certain traits, we naturally assume they are similar in all their core principles.

...I’d venture to guess that the first thing you notice—the one thing shared by everything—is just how fleeting everything truly is...

...on the flip side, that kind of experience preceding deep meditation might have been a single moment of pure somatic bliss in a dark cave. Picture some early ancestor after a grueling hunt, maybe after deciding to whip up a little herbal tonic😁 (who knows what life was actually like for our poor ancestors? It probably wasn't "easy." To me, it feels more like a dream world, occasionally interrupted by physical reality—just intense cascades of imagery before that visual gallery got pushed into the subconscious once language evolved and verbal thought started taking over the mind)...🤷

I mean, come on—you really think it was just "one single pleasant moment" that sparked all the spirituality and religion we see across the globe today?

wearymason36 said:I’ve always resonated with Osho’s take on meditation—the idea that it’s a state achieved by detaching oneself from the stream of consciousness. Most people mistake meditation for deep contemplation; they say things like, "Last night, I meditated on Jesus" or "on Siddhartha." To me, that isn't it. Real meditation is about stepping back from the flow of thought, or at least attempting to 🙂. You can't just kill off your thoughts without chemical assistance. The only way is through detached observation—positioning yourself like a cold, objective camera inside your own psyche. When you engage in deliberate contemplation, you're actively working to shape your thoughts using intellect and logic. But with detachment, the effort is only required at the start, while you work to become aware of your internal observer and how it reacts to the subconscious surge. Once you pull away, it’s like climbing out of a raging river to simply sit and watch the waterfall.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the term "meditation" is being used to describe two diametrically opposed concepts here. In my view, nobody is wrong; we just need to be explicit about which definition we’re using during a conversation.

Even if you don't consider him an enlightened being, Shree Rajneesh Bhagwan Osho had this incredible knack for pushing Seekers to relentlessly hunt for real answers regarding meditation. His deep philosophical background and the way he fostered such an open, inquisitive atmosphere definitely helped him achieve that.

wearymason36 said:I’ve always resonated with Osho’s take on meditation—the idea that it’s a state achieved by detaching oneself from the stream of consciousness. Most people mistake meditation for deep contemplation; they say things like, "Last night, I meditated on Jesus" or "on Siddhartha." To me, that isn't it. Real meditation is about stepping back from the flow of thought, or at least attempting to 🙂. You can't just kill off your thoughts without chemical assistance. The only way is through detached observation—positioning yourself like a cold, objective camera inside your own psyche. When you engage in deliberate contemplation, you're actively working to shape your thoughts using intellect and logic. But with detachment, the effort is only required at the start, while you work to become aware of your internal observer and how it reacts to the subconscious surge. Once you pull away, it’s like climbing out of a raging river to simply sit and watch the waterfall.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the term "meditation" is being used to describe two diametrically opposed concepts here. In my view, nobody is wrong; we just need to be explicit about which definition we’re using during a conversation.

But honestly? Those who truly know don't even bother worrying about these "two diametrically opposed meanings."

placidharbor7 said:Listen, you fascinating little local sociopath—and I say that because you actually call yourself that! There is a massive difference between the fascination of a horse and the fascination of a human being who acts like one. But then again, for someone like YOU, I suppose it’s all the same thing, isn't it?

Give me a break... since you brought it up, let's actually look at what we can learn from these "self-proclaimed" titles of yours.

I call myself a local sociopath, which is clearly a social shortcoming.

You call yourself a MASTER, which is—let's be honest—supposedly a virtue.

If we plug that into the equation, which goes something like this:
To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect.

...it becomes incredibly obvious who the actual defect is here, and who actually possesses a shred of self-awareness. ☕

...there is a massive difference between being fascinated by a horse and being a man who loves horses. But I guess to someone like YOU, everything is just the same.

None of that even matters compared to how "fascinating" your masterly persona is. Failing to realize you don't get it? That's the real defect... "MASTER." 😉

Live long and prosper!

placidharbor7 said:Even if you don't consider him an enlightened being, Shree Rajneesh Bhagwan Osho had this incredible knack for pushing Seekers to relentlessly hunt for real answers regarding meditation. His deep philosophical background and the way he fostered such an open, inquisitive atmosphere definitely helped him achieve that.

But honestly? Those who truly know don't even bother worrying about these "two diametrically opposed meanings."

Those who know, stay silent—and those who talk, clearly have no clue!

Oh, please... why don't you enlighten us a bit more with all that "wisdom" and your little "controller" theory? 😍

jademarlin26 said:It seems to me that you *are* that stream, so I am not entirely sure who is supposed to be detaching from whom.😕

Meditation doesn't have any connection at all to either the "observer" or the "observed."
placidharbor7 already pointed out that we really ought to start by defining what meditation *isn't* first.

Brenda Cook4 said:It isn't really about "opposite meanings." It's more that meditation is this broad umbrella term. Underneath it, you have meditation in the narrow sense, and then you have contemplation (think of things like samatha and vipassana; their methods, aims, and results are quite distinct).

Think of it this way:
We concentrate because we want to reach the Goal.
We meditate because we want to live in the heart of the Goal.
We contemplate because we want to become the Goal.

...so, if our aim is to truly grasp the nature of reality, we aren't looking to "detach from consciousness." Instead, we practice vipassana, which is nothing less than a penetrating vision born from a focused state of mind. What we're doing isn't escaping consciousness; it's actually waking it up—developing the capacity to truly see and understand...

...but there are plenty of experts out there who could explain that much better than I can...

Brenda Cook4 said:It isn't really about "opposite meanings." It's more that meditation is this broad umbrella term. Underneath it, you have meditation in the narrow sense, and then you have contemplation (think of things like samatha and vipassana; their methods, aims, and results are quite distinct).

Think of it this way:
We concentrate because we want to reach the Goal.
We meditate because we want to live in the heart of the Goal.
We contemplate because we want to become the Goal.

...so, if our aim is to truly grasp the nature of reality, we aren't looking to "detach from consciousness." Instead, we practice vipassana, which is nothing less than a penetrating vision born from a focused state of mind. What we're doing isn't escaping consciousness; it's actually waking it up—developing the capacity to truly see and understand...

...but there are plenty of experts out there who could explain that much better than I can...

As long as there is an "us," a "me," or an "I" involved—it isn't true meditation..

placidharbor7 said:Meditation doesn't have any connection at all to either the "observer" or the "observed."
placidharbor7 already pointed out that we really ought to start by defining what meditation *isn't* first.

Is it just me, or is talking about yourself in the third person a total red flag for egocentrics struggling with an inferiority complex?

wearymason36 said:Alright, I think there’s been a fundamental misunderstanding regarding the concept of the 'stream of consciousness.'

It is an undeniable fact that the subconscious mind runs hundreds of background processes during our daily routine—most of which we aren't even aware of. These manifest as dreams while we sleep, or, in the case of mental health struggles, as psychological disorders.

Meditation can unlock these processes, essentially allowing us to observe them with focus, but it is difficult to watch them without getting sucked in. I wasn't referring to disconnecting from consciousness through numbness, but rather choosing not to get swept away by those constant torrents of thought.

Sometimes, our goal is actually the exact opposite: intentionally diving into a specific train of thought to find answers about ourselves.

Regardless, the paradoxical truth remains: true mental relaxation is one of the hardest things to achieve.

Total silence—honestly, it might be the only way to make it happen.

Edward Flores4 said:Give me a break... since you brought it up, let's actually look at what we can learn from these "self-proclaimed" titles of yours.

I call myself a local sociopath, which is clearly a social shortcoming.

You call yourself a MASTER, which is—let's be honest—supposedly a virtue.

If we plug that into the equation, which goes something like this:
To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect.

...it becomes incredibly obvious who the actual defect is here, and who actually possesses a shred of self-awareness. ☕

...there is a massive difference between being fascinated by a horse and being a man who loves horses. But I guess to someone like YOU, everything is just the same.

None of that even matters compared to how "fascinating" your masterly persona is. Failing to realize you don't get it? That's the real defect... "MASTER." 😉

Live long and prosper!

And honestly? I think I'm way bigger than that!

Edward Flores4 said:Give me a break... since you brought it up, let's actually look at what we can learn from these "self-proclaimed" titles of yours.

I call myself a local sociopath, which is clearly a social shortcoming.

You call yourself a MASTER, which is—let's be honest—supposedly a virtue.

If we plug that into the equation, which goes something like this:
To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect.

...it becomes incredibly obvious who the actual defect is here, and who actually possesses a shred of self-awareness. ☕

...there is a massive difference between being fascinated by a horse and being a man who loves horses. But I guess to someone like YOU, everything is just the same.

None of that even matters compared to how "fascinating" your masterly persona is. Failing to realize you don't get it? That's the real defect... "MASTER." 😉

Live long and prosper!

Intellectual breakthroughs are basically just LEGO bricks for people like shamantrixx!

Edward Flores4 said:Give me a break... since you brought it up, let's actually look at what we can learn from these "self-proclaimed" titles of yours.

I call myself a local sociopath, which is clearly a social shortcoming.

You call yourself a MASTER, which is—let's be honest—supposedly a virtue.

If we plug that into the equation, which goes something like this:
To realize that you do not understand is a virtue; Not to realize that you do not understand is a defect.

...it becomes incredibly obvious who the actual defect is here, and who actually possesses a shred of self-awareness. ☕

...there is a massive difference between being fascinated by a horse and being a man who loves horses. But I guess to someone like YOU, everything is just the same.

None of that even matters compared to how "fascinating" your masterly persona is. Failing to realize you don't get it? That's the real defect... "MASTER." 😉

Live long and prosper!

A "defect" only exists if the OBJECT actually possesses certain attributes and qualities, shamantrixx!

Edward Flores4 said:Is it just me, or is talking about yourself in the third person a total red flag for egocentrics struggling with an inferiority complex?

Or maybe it’s just egocentrics who are fully aware of their own hang-ups talking about themselves no matter what pronoun they use, shamantrixx?🙂

placidharbor7 said:And honestly? I think I'm way bigger than that!

Intellectual breakthroughs are basically just LEGO bricks for people like shamantrixx!

A "defect" only exists if the OBJECT actually possesses certain attributes and qualities, shamantrixx!

What I’m actually talking about is the act of doubling down on your own confusion—which is lightyears away from this "intellectual realization" nonsense you spend all day rambling about.

A "defect" only exists as long as a GIVEN entity possesses specific attributes and qualities, Edward Flores4.

Look, I have no idea who taught you what or where you picked up that philosophy, but they clearly gave you a raw deal. Honestly, trying to hide the gaps in your logic by hiding behind pseudo-intellectual fog like using terms like "given entity" is just a desperate attempt to sell blind people a pair of sunglasses.

So, why don't you enlighten us, "Master"... what exactly defines this "entity," and does your obsession with "giving" things have some weird subtext I should know about?

From where I'm sitting... it just looks like a fresh batch of smoke and mirrors. 🤷

placidharbor7 said:Or maybe it’s just egocentrics who are fully aware of their own hang-ups talking about themselves no matter what pronoun they use, shamantrixx?🙂

Oh, really?

As far as I know, standard American grammar suggests using the first person when you're talking about yourself. Honestly, switching to the third person during a direct conversation is usually seen as one of those early red flags for an ego problem. We have a saying here about people who "act like they're their own boss" even when they aren't—it's a hallmark of someone with a massive ego and huge ambitions, but without actually having the skills to back them up. So, they resort to this weird "self-referencing" thing, talking about themselves in the third person to sound more important than they are.

This whole attempt at making excuses is pretty pathetic... you're basically just selling snake oil here!

Edward Flores4 said:What I’m actually talking about is the act of doubling down on your own confusion—which is lightyears away from this "intellectual realization" nonsense you spend all day rambling about.

A "defect" only exists as long as a GIVEN entity possesses specific attributes and qualities, Edward Flores4.

Look, I have no idea who taught you what or where you picked up that philosophy, but they clearly gave you a raw deal. Honestly, trying to hide the gaps in your logic by hiding behind pseudo-intellectual fog like using terms like "given entity" is just a desperate attempt to sell blind people a pair of sunglasses.

So, why don't you enlighten us, "Master"... what exactly defines this "entity," and does your obsession with "giving" things have some weird subtext I should know about?

From where I'm sitting... it just looks like a fresh batch of smoke and mirrors. 🤷

Haha, oh man... those Tupamaros!😂

I can't believe I'm actually sitting here typing this out, but honestly, where do we even begin? Is it just me, or does it feel like everything is moving at a hundred miles an hour lately? It’s absolutely wild! I was thinking about it earlier today while grabbing a coffee, and it hit me—how often do we actually stop to process what’s happening around us? We get so caught up in the daily grind, the endless notifications, and the constant rush that we miss the big picture entirely. Isn't that just the craziest thing? We’re all sprinting toward a finish line that keeps moving further away! Anyway, I wanted to jump in here because I’ve been reflecting on some of the things we’ve discussed recently. There’s so much energy in this community, and I love it! It really gets my heart racing to see everyone sharing their thoughts with such passion. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? What if we all took just a second to breathe and look at things from a different angle? Wouldn't the world be a whole lot more interesting if we did? I’m feeling incredibly optimistic about where things are heading, even with all the chaos. There’s always a silver lining if you look hard enough, right? Let’s keep this momentum going! I can't wait to hear what everyone else thinks about this. What’s on your mind today? Don't be shy—let's get a real conversation started! kaže:
So, placidharbor7, you’re really going to put me on the spot like that? You're asking for a definition of "DATOST"? Honestly, where do I even begin? It sounds like one of those heavy, technical terms they throw around just to make things sound more complicated than they actually are! But seriously, what exactly are we talking about here? Are we diving into some deep, philosophical concept, or is this some niche industry jargon that only a handful of people actually use? Sometimes these terms feel like they were invented just to keep us all on our toes! What do you think? Is it just fancy talk, or is there some real substance behind it that I'm missing?

Honestly, DATOST is basically everything! It’s all there. Someone really needs to step up and overhaul the way we handle deep, introspective discourse here in America—but hey, looking at you, I don't think you're quite cut out for the job, are you?

Edward Flores4 said:Oh, really?

As far as I know, standard American grammar suggests using the first person when you're talking about yourself. Honestly, switching to the third person during a direct conversation is usually seen as one of those early red flags for an ego problem. We have a saying here about people who "act like they're their own boss" even when they aren't—it's a hallmark of someone with a massive ego and huge ambitions, but without actually having the skills to back them up. So, they resort to this weird "self-referencing" thing, talking about themselves in the third person to sound more important than they are.

This whole attempt at making excuses is pretty pathetic... you're basically just selling snake oil here!

That’s just how you roll—everything is just "as far as I know" with you.
KNOWING—to you, the whole government is just a total Google.

Dear "expert,"

It’s unfortunate to see you spiraling into such an inferiority complex. Your posts suggest you're clinging to that tired "I'm enlightened while you're all mere mortals" trope just to mask a desperate need for validation. It’s classic ego-stroking—a psychological crutch used by people who lack genuine confidence. You hide behind this facade of "mystical insight" to pretend you've transcended life's struggles, when really, it’s just a defense mechanism against being an outcast. Like a cornered animal puffing itself up to look bigger than it is, you use this pathetic rhetoric to shield your fragility. I’d suggest popping this bubble before reality hits you hard enough to shatter that monument you've built to yourself.

I'm being blunt here: if you don't snap out of this, you're headed for a massive reality check. I'm not calling you an idiot, a narcissist, or any other label; I'm simply offering some honest advice.

wearymason36 said:Dear "expert,"

It’s unfortunate to see you spiraling into such an inferiority complex. Your posts suggest you're clinging to that tired "I'm enlightened while you're all mere mortals" trope just to mask a desperate need for validation. It’s classic ego-stroking—a psychological crutch used by people who lack genuine confidence. You hide behind this facade of "mystical insight" to pretend you've transcended life's struggles, when really, it’s just a defense mechanism against being an outcast. Like a cornered animal puffing itself up to look bigger than it is, you use this pathetic rhetoric to shield your fragility. I’d suggest popping this bubble before reality hits you hard enough to shatter that monument you've built to yourself.

I'm being blunt here: if you don't snap out of this, you're headed for a massive reality check. I'm not calling you an idiot, a narcissist, or any other label; I'm simply offering some honest advice.

The topic here is the debate over meditation, truth seeker. I mean, shouldn't someone calling themselves an "expert" be the most knowledgeable person in the room when it comes to meditation, right? Well, before you jump in, why don't you first figure out if you actually know more or less about this stuff than our friend placidharbor7? Once you've done that, feel free to try and analyze his "expert" psychological profile.

To kick things off, placidharbor7 will tell you straight up: you personally haven't even come close to experiencing what he truly understands and defines as meditation.

placidharbor7 said:The topic here is the debate over meditation, truth seeker. I mean, shouldn't someone calling themselves an "expert" be the most knowledgeable person in the room when it comes to meditation, right? Well, before you jump in, why don't you first figure out if you actually know more or less about this stuff than our friend placidharbor7? Once you've done that, feel free to try and analyze his "expert" psychological profile.

To kick things off, placidharbor7 will tell you straight up: you personally haven't even come close to experiencing what he truly understands and defines as meditation.

I probably haven't, but since it clearly didn't work for you, I couldn't care less. You’ve twisted the concept of meditation to fit your own ego, so naturally, you're the only one who holds the "secrets." They say a person is their own greatest obstacle to spirituality. If that's the case, you're basically Mount Denali.

placidharbor7 said:That’s just how you roll—everything is just "as far as I know" with you.
KNOWING—to you, the whole government is just a total Google.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that you're constantly talking about yourself in the third person. It’s a weird little habit, and honestly, you're sharing that rare "virtue" with guys like Ljub Česić Rojs, the headman, and that one local political figure. 😁

By the way, I think it’s pretty obvious to everyone here how transparent you're being—trying to dodge criticism by pivoting the conversation and throwing out half-baked arguments.

Give my best to Ljub Česić Rojs if you run into him... though I'm sure you'll talk about him in the third person too. 🤣