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Language and Culture: Asset or Liability?

Started by Edward Flores4 · · 👁 6 views · 80 replies

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Participants Edward Flores4bluetiger13swiftcobra15Keith Lee2James Lee77coastalskipper92casualwolf12loneorca34Matthew OrtizElizabeth Ruiz65Michelle Sanders72Mark Torres14George Chavez8electricdriver93bluebison70
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 RegularOP
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#1 ·
This is just a follow-up to that wild discussion we were having over in the "modesty" thread—here are the snippets from the posts that actually kicked things off:

by ja glavom i bradom:
...I’ve got a question for you, because this specific concept really caught my eye:
The awareness of being beyond the need for culture is what people usually call enlightenment.

It sounds pretty fascinating—because if that's true, then by defining what culture actually is, we could at least get a rough idea of what "enlightenment" looks like. So, what I'm wondering is... what exactly do you mean when you use the word "culture"?

by garizla:
Think of it like this: to help clarify the whole enlightenment thing, this definition seems to fit best: culture is the sum total of symbols and meanings that define a society and its activities.

Based on that, enlightenment could be seen as emerging from that entire world of symbols and meanings.

Personally, I struggle with that idea—and the issue, for me, really boils down to how we perceive nature. I think I mentioned something about this a few posts back. "Modesty" is already a tricky concept to pin down, but man, language itself is even more of a headache...

That's why I can't really view enlightenment as some sort of extra-cultural or extra-physical experience. Maybe the only way to look at it is as an awareness of the act of labeling itself.
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 RegularOP
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#2 ·
The first real "red flag" I see in that description of culture is that it doesn't actually define what culture IS—it just describes how it shows up and how we abstract it from reality!

I think a massive part of the puzzle is where culture actually "originates"—whether it serves a specific purpose or if it’s just a byproduct of larger forces. We need to look at how it forms within social processes, how it gets spread around, and where these "cultural expansions" even come from in the first place.

To put it simply, my take is that culture is essentially the effect of leadership—it's what happens when certain individuals identify values and push them onto the masses, whether those values are intellectual, ideological, stereotypical, or even aggressive. I also lean toward the idea that authority itself is a cultural construct; basically, an authority figure is just someone we believe truly understands and embodies our cultural norms better than we do ourselves.

In this sense, culture acts like a role model designed to guide the crowd toward being more predictable. Every culture has its own taboos that serve to stigmatize the core motives of whatever came before it—which, to me, is a pretty compelling argument that culture is something manufactured and imposed. It’s a "top-down creation" rather than some organic, slow evolution.

What do you think about this broader view of culture? Do you see any holes in this logic?
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 RegularOP
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#3 ·
Before I let this slip my mind, I really think we need to talk about how much language actually drives that whole "top-down" cultural engineering model. It’s almost like the media acts as a constant referee, constantly blaming our vocabulary for why cultural norms shift—as if changing a few words magically rewrites our values. To me, political correctness feels like one of those massive institutional tools designed specifically to shut down debate. They wrap everything up in this neat little package of "decency" and "civility," which sounds great on paper, but its real function is to kill off any meaningful critique. When you frame dissent as being "impolite," you end up fostering a culture that essentially rewards mediocrity and discourages people from pointing out when things go wrong. It creates this feedback loop where we stop holding anyone accountable, effectively steering the entire flow of public thought away from anything deemed "culturally unacceptable."
bluetiger13 bluetiger13 Member
20 messages
joined Dec 2007
#4 ·
Edward Flores4 said:And before I forget—language plays a massive role in this whole "top-down culture" thing. Media outlets constantly weaponize language to reshape cultural norms. Political correctness is basically just a tool used to shut down debate under the guise of being "polite" or "respectful." It forces culture to push this idea of tolerance for failure and a lack of critical thinking, which ultimately guts our standards and steers everyone away from any thought deemed "socially unacceptable."

I honestly have no clue what you're getting at here—feels like you might be struggling with how to actually define "culture."

Culture includes everything from mainstream pop culture to niche subcultures—it's even what you personally choose to say, write, or create. It’s all part of it. Are we talking about whether someone wants to act like an animal or a rock? That's not really the point, right?
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 RegularOP
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#5 ·
bluetiger13 said:I honestly have no clue what you're getting at here—feels like you might be struggling with how to actually define "culture."

Culture includes everything from mainstream pop culture to niche subcultures—it's even what you personally choose to say, write, or create. It’s all part of it. Are we talking about whether someone wants to act like an animal or a rock? That's not really the point, right?

I think that hits the nail right on the head—that's actually the core of this whole discussion. Culture isn't some measurable physical phenomenon like gravity or electromagnetism, so we're never going to land on one single, "absolutely correct" definition. It's a massive, sprawling concept, but I think it helps if we narrow our focus to culture as a specific linguistic categorization—one that inherently carries weight regarding the value of those categories themselves.

By that, I don't mean things like being polite to your neighbors or, well, not relieving yourself in public. That's where the confusion usually starts... people use the word "culture" to describe everything from social etiquette and communication styles to folk traditions, motifs, music, fine arts, language, and even a nation's history. Even fashion and the designer clothing industry fall under that umbrella. We end up dealing with foreign cultures that simultaneously act as our "non-culture," or various subcultures within the same society that constantly clash with one another, and so on and so forth...

The term "culture" is just a little too broad to be useful sometimes. To say anything meaningful about it without immediately contradicting half of those categories, we really have to strip away the general context and define our terms more precisely.

do you want to be a monkey, or a dog? maybe they have their own culture too. do you want to be a rock, or sand, or what?

Maybe take a breather, or perhaps try finding some folks to chat with who share a bit more of your cultural background.
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#6 ·
But looking at this from a practical standpoint:

culture is simply how Homo Sapiens exists.
A human being can truly only exist within the framework of culture.
Keith Lee2 Keith Lee2 Active Member
117 messages
joined Dec 2006
#7 ·
swiftcobra15 said:
But looking at this from a practical standpoint:

culture is simply how Homo Sapiens exists.
A human being can truly only exist within the framework of culture.

Am I totally off base if I say this:

but from a practical standpoint—say:

conformism is just how Homo Sapiens functions.
we basically can't exist without conformism.


(and even here in the online world of conformism)
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 Regular
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#8 ·
Keith Lee2 said:Am I totally off base if I say this:

but from a practical standpoint—say:

conformism is just how Homo Sapiens functions.
we basically can't exist without conformism.


(and even here in the online world of conformism)

Humanity thrives through culture, and for most people, that means embracing conformism. 👎

On a forum like this, you have to follow certain ground rules to keep things civil,
but I wouldn't go so far as to call that conformism. 🙂

James Lee77 James Lee77 Active Member
172 messages
joined Jan 2012
#9 ·
So, there are basically two different ways to look at Aristotle’s "definitions of man"— Man, I can't stop thinking about that whole *zoon politikon* concept. It’s like, we’re basically wired to be social creatures, right? I guess it’s just part of being human—we aren't meant to go it alone. Maybe that's why everything feels so intense lately. Just some food for thought, I guess. "Social animal," you know... that living thing that thrives in... I guess I'm just overthinking things, but honestly? It feels like we’re all just drifting through this giant, messy urban sprawl without any real sense of direction. Maybe it's just me, though.It looks like you only sent a fragment! I can't really work with just a couple of words and some punctuation. Send over the full post you want me to tackle, and I'll get right on it. I'm ready to flip it into something that sounds totally natural and American. I guess I'm just totally lost on how to get into Zoom... like, seriously, does anyone actually know where the login button is? Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I feel like I'm hitting a wall here. Help a guy out! It’s like... that living, breathing thing that talks? They just sort of click together. I mean, at the end of the day, humans are basically just social animals that live in groups. That's just how it works, I guess.I mean, honestly? It’s all about that old-school communism vibe. I guess we're just seeing it all over again.Just because he’s talking, that's why... I guess. Maybe? I guess I'm just gonna say it... communist.It’s all about that connection, you know? Like, people talk and actually engage because they’re part of a community. It just goes both ways.

Culture is basically just the shared story of a group of people, I guess. It’s what brings everyone together.

I mean, anyone talking about living outside of culture is basically proving they're part of one just by speaking. Like, you’re participating in the culture and helping shape its whole collective story just by opening your mouth. It’s kind of wild when you think about it.

Conformism is basically just participating in culture without actually creating anything; but I guess not everything that counts as being part of a culture is mindless conformity.
coastalskipper92 coastalskipper92 Active Member
85 messages
joined Nov 2008
#10 ·
James Lee77 said:So, there are basically two different ways to look at Aristotle’s "definitions of man"— Man, I can't stop thinking about that whole *zoon politikon* concept. It’s like, we’re basically wired to be social creatures, right? I guess it’s just part of being human—we aren't meant to go it alone. Maybe that's why everything feels so intense lately. Just some food for thought, I guess. "Social animal," you know... that living thing that thrives in... I guess I'm just overthinking things, but honestly? It feels like we’re all just drifting through this giant, messy urban sprawl without any real sense of direction. Maybe it's just me, though.It looks like you only sent a fragment! I can't really work with just a couple of words and some punctuation. Send over the full post you want me to tackle, and I'll get right on it. I'm ready to flip it into something that sounds totally natural and American. I guess I'm just totally lost on how to get into Zoom... like, seriously, does anyone actually know where the login button is? Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I feel like I'm hitting a wall here. Help a guy out! It’s like... that living, breathing thing that talks? They just sort of click together. I mean, at the end of the day, humans are basically just social animals that live in groups. That's just how it works, I guess.I mean, honestly? It’s all about that old-school communism vibe. I guess we're just seeing it all over again.Just because he’s talking, that's why... I guess. Maybe? I guess I'm just gonna say it... communist.It’s all about that connection, you know? Like, people talk and actually engage because they’re part of a community. It just goes both ways.

Culture is basically just the shared story of a group of people, I guess. It’s what brings everyone together.

I mean, anyone talking about living outside of culture is basically proving they're part of one just by speaking. Like, you’re participating in the culture and helping shape its whole collective story just by opening your mouth. It’s kind of wild when you think about it.

Conformism is basically just participating in culture without actually creating anything; but I guess not everything that counts as being part of a culture is mindless conformity.

You did a good thing, reminding me.

What exactly constitutes philosophy? Is it merely an academic pursuit? A way of life, perhaps? It isn't just something I engage in when I decide to log on to a discussion forum... is it?
This also brings to mind how I was recently racking my brain over that very same Aristotelian observation.

And doesn't that all boil down to culture? It’s everything, really.

Back then, it was merely my own spontaneous stream of consciousness... a series of fleeting realizations and internal shifts. Or perhaps just a wandering thought process? It’s hard to say.

I’ve reached a rather sobering conclusion lately. It seems I have been allowing that inner political animal to constrain me far more than I ever realized. How much of my own perspective am I actually stifling just to fit within certain societal boundaries? 😉 Because he places such constraints on the truth, one finds themselves forced to pursue it through philosophy instead. Is that not the inevitable result? 😂
If we hadn't abandoned nature, perhaps we wouldn't have strayed so far from the truth. But then again, we’d just be savages, wouldn't we? Not that everyone shares my particular enthusiasm for the idea—at least, not in my dreams. 😍

Culture, language... it all traces back to that Aristotelian idea of being a political animal, doesn't it? But then again, everything comes with its own price tag.

And just like that, we were set—to be crushed.

Which implies that conformism is actually quite alright? Since the conformist doesn't bother with critical thinking, they never realize they've walked straight into a trap—not that there's much difference in the end, is there? ☕ )

So... what exactly constitutes culture? Is it merely a collection of shared habits, or does it run deeper than that? One finds oneself wondering if we are simply products of our surroundings, or if there is some underlying essence that defines us. Is it the art we consume, the way we speak, or perhaps just the quiet, unwritten rules that govern our daily interactions in an American suburb? It is a question that seems to invite endless deliberation, yet provides so little clarity.

It isn't about what she preaches, nor is it about where she’s actually heading—since, frankly, she doesn't even seem to know that herself. And it certainly isn't about who spends their time following her lead...

Culture is quite simple, really—isn't it? Or perhaps it's anything but. One wonders where the line is drawn between true expression and mere imitation. Is it the shared values that bind us, or just the habits we pick up without thinking? It feels rather straightforward on the surface, yet when you peel back the layers, everything becomes so much more complicated. Is there even a point in trying to define it? Form.Form, doesn't it? It always seems to impose its own set of limits.

And that, I suppose, is the only definition of form worth having. At least, if you ask me.

So, does it even matter if culture is meant to convey a certain spirit? Perhaps not. It seems the goal is merely to slice it up and mold it into something manageable. And really, is it any wonder that culture eventually dies off, only to give way to a civilization complete with all its various metastases?

Forms are mortal. Or perhaps they are simply fleeting? It makes one wonder if anything truly holds its shape in this life. One moment there is structure, and the next... nothingness. Is permanence even an attainable goal? I suspect not. 🤷

It’s a bit of a mess, isn't it? The real issue lies in what they actually produce—we end up creating these new iterations, which then proceed to butcher the spirit all over again. Is that not the cycle?

So, what happens now that I’ve become the resident political pundit? Even for someone like me—who, truth be told, would have been perfectly content just sitting on the sidelines and enjoying the view—I suppose the fact remains. I am. What follows?
I simply cannot be some uncivilized brute, Friday. I find myself compelled to continue living a life surrounded by culture. ☕

Has anyone else noticed? It’s everywhere today. Truly everywhere.
From pâté. 😍
Everything seems to be drifting toward these artsy-farty blogs lately, as if they’re some kind of modern miracle. Is it really all that special?
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 RegularOP
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#11 ·
James Lee77 said:So, there are basically two different ways to look at Aristotle’s "definitions of man"— Man, I can't stop thinking about that whole *zoon politikon* concept. It’s like, we’re basically wired to be social creatures, right? I guess it’s just part of being human—we aren't meant to go it alone. Maybe that's why everything feels so intense lately. Just some food for thought, I guess. "Social animal," you know... that living thing that thrives in... I guess I'm just overthinking things, but honestly? It feels like we’re all just drifting through this giant, messy urban sprawl without any real sense of direction. Maybe it's just me, though.It looks like you only sent a fragment! I can't really work with just a couple of words and some punctuation. Send over the full post you want me to tackle, and I'll get right on it. I'm ready to flip it into something that sounds totally natural and American. I guess I'm just totally lost on how to get into Zoom... like, seriously, does anyone actually know where the login button is? Maybe I'm just overthinking it, but I feel like I'm hitting a wall here. Help a guy out! It’s like... that living, breathing thing that talks? They just sort of click together. I mean, at the end of the day, humans are basically just social animals that live in groups. That's just how it works, I guess.I mean, honestly? It’s all about that old-school communism vibe. I guess we're just seeing it all over again.Just because he’s talking, that's why... I guess. Maybe? I guess I'm just gonna say it... communist.It’s all about that connection, you know? Like, people talk and actually engage because they’re part of a community. It just goes both ways.

Culture is basically just the shared story of a group of people, I guess. It’s what brings everyone together.

I mean, anyone talking about living outside of culture is basically proving they're part of one just by speaking. Like, you’re participating in the culture and helping shape its whole collective story just by opening your mouth. It’s kind of wild when you think about it.

Conformism is basically just participating in culture without actually creating anything; but I guess not everything that counts as being part of a culture is mindless conformity.

I don't think anyone was actually talking about "existing outside" of culture—it's more about having an awareness of what culture actually *is*. There's this realization that once print media became a thing, culture transformed into something incredibly artificial, forced, and frankly, unhealthy. Think about it: editors at major American newspapers don't just edit text; they essentially architect the entire cultural landscape. It feels like more time and energy goes into a glossy beer ad in a Sunday paper than into any actual investigative journalism or thoughtful editorial content. Those ads look world-class, while the articles themselves feel like they were written for people who can barely grasp basic concepts. If we accept that a culture is defined by what it prioritizes, then it's painfully obvious that our modern "culture" shifted its focus from people to products ages ago. Instead of promoting human values, it pushes status symbols and consumerism. So, what is this thing we're dealing with? Is it even culture at all, or are we just using the word "culture" out of sheer sentimentality because it makes us feel a little more comfortable?

If there's anyone on this forum who honestly believes they’ve managed to enrich, change, or shape culture through their own work or mere presence—please, step forward. I'd love to see it. But from where I'm sitting, culture today is susceptible to almost everything except the very people who are forced to live within it.

Just because we can't "escape" culture doesn't mean we have to blindly accept it, or that we aren't allowed to maintain a healthy, critical distance from it. As long as we keep believing in "culture" as if it's something inherently ours to cherish, it’s going to continue having a devastating effect on the individual.
coastalskipper92 coastalskipper92 Active Member
85 messages
joined Nov 2008
#12 ·
Edward Flores4 said:I don't think anyone was actually talking about "existing outside" of culture—it's more about having an awareness of what culture actually *is*. There's this realization that once print media became a thing, culture transformed into something incredibly artificial, forced, and frankly, unhealthy. Think about it: editors at major American newspapers don't just edit text; they essentially architect the entire cultural landscape. It feels like more time and energy goes into a glossy beer ad in a Sunday paper than into any actual investigative journalism or thoughtful editorial content. Those ads look world-class, while the articles themselves feel like they were written for people who can barely grasp basic concepts. If we accept that a culture is defined by what it prioritizes, then it's painfully obvious that our modern "culture" shifted its focus from people to products ages ago. Instead of promoting human values, it pushes status symbols and consumerism. So, what is this thing we're dealing with? Is it even culture at all, or are we just using the word "culture" out of sheer sentimentality because it makes us feel a little more comfortable?

If there's anyone on this forum who honestly believes they’ve managed to enrich, change, or shape culture through their own work or mere presence—please, step forward. I'd love to see it. But from where I'm sitting, culture today is susceptible to almost everything except the very people who are forced to live within it.

Just because we can't "escape" culture doesn't mean we have to blindly accept it, or that we aren't allowed to maintain a healthy, critical distance from it. As long as we keep believing in "culture" as if it's something inherently ours to cherish, it’s going to continue having a devastating effect on the individual.


the culture of the spirit

the spirit of consumerism😉

we don't call it culture out of sentimentality; we do it out of habit.😉
not everyone does, obviously.

from feudal serf to big spender
this wonderful life of purchasing power
🙂
casualwolf12 casualwolf12 Member
32 messages
joined Jan 2008
#13 ·
Keith Lee2 said:Am I totally off base if I say this:

but from a practical standpoint—say:

conformism is just how Homo Sapiens functions.
we basically can't exist without conformism.


(and even here in the online world of conformism)

I suspect you might be wrong on that point, though I cannot say for certain...
if humans were strictly limited to conformity, where would the perpetual friction between dominant culture and counterculture originate? It is true that countercultures have grown somewhat lethargic—they "talk the talk, but don't walk the walk," if you will 😁—yet they remain present, operating just beneath the radar... if only to continue preaching their specific ideologies. 🤷
loneorca34 loneorca34 Member
15 messages
joined Sep 2008
#14 ·
I don't even know where to start with this one. Honestly, I was just sitting here thinking about how much stuff changes, you know? Like, one day everything feels solid, and then—bam—everything shifts. It’s kind of wild when you really stop to look at it. I was actually talking to a friend about something similar the other day while we were grabbing coffee in Chicago, and we ended up going down this huge rabbit hole about how little control we actually have over the big things. Anyway, my brain is just buzzing with all this. What do you guys think? Is it just me, or is everything feeling a bit more... unsettled lately? I feel like I'm constantly trying to catch my breath just to keep up with the pace of it all. Just a thought. Or maybe a lot of thoughts. I can never tell. kaže:
So, I’ve been chewing on this whole idea of that "expanded" view of culture—you know, the one where everything from high art down to a random TikTok trend or a greasy burger joint is all lumped together under the same umbrella. Honestly? It’s a lot to wrap my head around. On one hand, I kind of love it. It feels more... I don't know, honest? Like, if we only talk about stuff like Shakespeare or those massive Broadway shows, we're basically ignoring how most people actually live their lives. Real life happens in the suburbs, at the local diner, or while you're scrolling through your phone on the subway. Including all that grit and everyday stuff makes the whole concept feel more human, less like some dusty museum exhibit. But man, I can't help but wonder if we're losing something vital in the process. If *everything* is culture, then does *anything* actually matter? It’s like when my buddy tried to argue that a bag of Flamin' Hot Cheetos was just as culturally significant as a masterpiece hanging in the MoMA. I mean, sure, they're iconic, but there's a certain weight, a certain craft, to the classics that you just don't get from a snack food. I worry that by stretching the definition so thin, we might end up diluting the things that actually challenge us or push us to be better. If we stop making distinctions, do we lose the ability to say, "Hey, this is truly extraordinary"? It’s a fine line to walk between being inclusive and just being... well, messy. What do you guys think? Am I just being old-fashioned, or is there a real risk in flattening everything out?

Man, you really started off on a super pessimistic note there! 😁

I’m gonna try to be as thorough as I possibly can here, so please, forgive me if this turns into a bit of a novel... honestly. Most of this is just what I can pull from my own memory, though I am leaning heavily on an old notebook of mine to keep things straight, so bear with me—some of these details might feel a little broad or general.

I mean, look, at its core, culture is basically just this massive, tangible, emotional web of human connection—you know? It’s everything we pour into texts, the images we stare at, even those little gestures we make without thinking. It’s the actual fabric of how we live together.
So, this whole idea really started picking up steam toward the end of the 18th century. It was mostly these German Romantics who were getting pretty fed up with how much French thought was dominating everything back then. I mean, you have to understand—at that time, the French were absolutely obsessed with this grand concept of "civilization." They were basically riding that wave hard, trying to push their way of thinking on everyone else, and it just drove the German intellectuals crazy.
When you really sit down and think about what "civilization" actually means... it’s more than just buildings or technology, you know? It’s that whole layer of stuff we wrap around ourselves—our logic, our manners, the way we carry ourselves, even the specific way we speak. It’s basically everything that separates a modern American from what people used to call "barbarians." You know the type—those folks who were seen as just pure instinct, totally unrefined, living without any of those social filters we rely on every single day. It's that sense of polish that makes us feel distinct.
Back in the day, you had these romanticists over in Germany who were just constantly at odds with their king. It was such a mess! They were always breathing down his neck because he was obsessed with French philosophy. Can you believe that? They felt like he was basically turning his back on his own people—ignoring the local artists and all those brilliant intellectuals right there at home—just to chase after what was trendy in France. And don't even get me started on the language thing. They were furious that he was prioritizing French over their own native tongue. It’s wild how much ego and cultural pride can stir up drama like that.
So, I was digging through some old files and stumbled upon these letters written by Shiller back in 1795. Honestly, I can’t even remember who he was actually writing to, or if there were dozens more just sitting around somewhere. But man, what he says about France really sticks with me. He basically argued that they were leaning way too hard on pure reason. His whole point was that you’ve gotta factor in the body, too—because let's face it, logic can explain just about anything, but it can't exactly explain itself. It feels like we're seeing this happen again today, where standards of taste have just completely shattered. There's no unity left. You can't just look at what the high-society elites like and call it a rule anymore; that kind of unquestionable authority is dead and gone. It’s actually pretty wild because the Germans used to look at France and see nothing but a barbaric state that cared way too much about surface-level form. For Shiller, though, true culture is something much deeper—something archaic, rooted in our actual senses. He was actually being pretty gentle in his critique, trying to find a middle ground between those two extremes. He called this balancing act the "play impulse," which is basically this drive to find a shared framework of agreement. Of course, he was mostly talking about art, but you can see how it applies to everything else, right?
You know, when you look at Goethe, his whole perspective really starts to make sense once you consider how much literature he felt was losing its spark back then. He was actually pushing for this comparative way of studying different civilizations—which, let's be honest, was a pretty wild idea at the time. Most people were just focused on conquest, you know? Just taking over and moving on. But he wanted to understand. And when it comes to the whole debate over civilization and culture, he was totally on the same page as Shiller. It’s that classic tug-of-war we always talk about: pure reason versus raw emotion.
So, you've got these two guys, right? And over the years, a whole swarm of intellectuals has basically built their entire legacies on top of them. It’s like they laid the foundation, and everyone else just kept adding floors to the building. Take Raymond Williams, for example—he’s out there deep in his feelings, totally rethinking what we actually mean when we talk about "culture." He breaks it down like this:
Culture isn't just some dusty thing you find in a museum—it’s more like this massive, invisible web woven right into our daily chats, whether we're just gossiping over coffee or debating big stuff in the public square. It’s layered, you know? It touches everything from the symbols we use to the weird little habits we all share. Because it's everywhere, "culture" has basically become this rhetorical tool itself. Its meaning keeps shifting depending on who's using it and where. Honestly, it's such a broad term that Hartley points out how it's totally multi-discursive. That's just a fancy way of saying it isn't stuck in one box; it can mean as many different things as there are different ways to talk about it.

Back during the Enlightenment era, people used to toss around the terms "culture" and "civilization" like they were basically the same thing. It was all part of this big push to frame culture as the ultimate symbol of progress. Basically, the rising middle class started using it as their main weapon against the old-school aristocracy—you know, those elites who had always been the face of French "civilization." It was their way of saying, "Hey, we're moving forward, and you're just stuck in the past."

So, I was sitting here thinking about Raymond Williams—you know, that guy we were talking about? It turns out he actually lays out three different ways to define culture. Three! It’s kind of wild how much depth there is when you really start digging into his work. It's not just one simple thing; it's layered, like how you might look at a classic movie versus just the way people hang out at a local diner on a Friday night. There's so much more to unpack than I first thought.
The "Ideal"—it’s basically this whole concept of polishing humans up to fit these universal standards and values. But honestly? I think there's a huge flaw in how he defines it. He just completely ignores the reality of social circumstances. It’s like he doesn't even care about the distinction between reaching some lofty peak of human development and actually, you know, having enough food on the table and meeting basic material needs. You can't really talk about perfecting the soul if people are struggling just to get by.

Documentary—think of it as this massive collection of mental imagery and imagination that acts like a storage unit for human thought and lived experience.
This basically birtched a whole branch of critical work that heads in a few different directions: it can highlight the absolute best of us (like an idealist would), it can zoom in on specific little pieces, or it can grow into this big historical critique that tries to link everything back to a specific tradition or the society that actually produced it. The only real headache with this definition is that you can't just boil culture down to what’s been written in books, nor can you ever really rip it away from the rest of what makes life, well, life.

Social—this is more about describing a specific way of living where certain meanings and values aren't just stuck in fine art or academic stuff, but show up in our institutions and how we act every single day. Or, if you want the short version, it’s the total sum of a way of life.
We really have to give Raymond Williams credit here; he’s the one who moved the whole concept of "culture" out of that stuffy, elitist bubble of "eternal values" and dropped it right into the messy, everyday experience of real people.

For me, the most fascinating bit about culture as a concept is this idea of webs of meaning. Geertz argues that humans are basically tangled up in a web of meanings they spun themselves, and our job is to try and crystallize those meanings. So, if we look at it analytically, we can define culture as this battlefield where everyone is fighting over what things mean. When we read the meaning behind a product or a text, we're looking at a production process with all sorts of social outcomes happening at different stages of its creation. We read a text as a byproduct of the context—the specific time and place it was born into. The tricky part is how differently everyone interprets those meanings, especially when every single interpretation tries to assert itself as the final, ultimate rulebook.

So, now we get to your take:
Your perspective is pretty structuralist, with a healthy helping of Marxism mixed in, 😁 and it mostly revolves—led by Foucault—around power dynamics. That brings us to the idea of hegemony, which is basically when an ideology is pushed so successfully that the ones promoting it (let's call them "the authorities") convince the people being targeted (let's call them "the public") to actually *want* to be part of that ideology. In a nutshell? It's colonization with consent. Talk about power at its peak.
casualwolf12 casualwolf12 Member
32 messages
joined Jan 2008
#15 ·
Edward Flores4 said:I don't think anyone was actually talking about "existing outside" of culture—it's more about having an awareness of what culture actually *is*. There's this realization that once print media became a thing, culture transformed into something incredibly artificial, forced, and frankly, unhealthy. Think about it: editors at major American newspapers don't just edit text; they essentially architect the entire cultural landscape. It feels like more time and energy goes into a glossy beer ad in a Sunday paper than into any actual investigative journalism or thoughtful editorial content. Those ads look world-class, while the articles themselves feel like they were written for people who can barely grasp basic concepts. If we accept that a culture is defined by what it prioritizes, then it's painfully obvious that our modern "culture" shifted its focus from people to products ages ago. Instead of promoting human values, it pushes status symbols and consumerism. So, what is this thing we're dealing with? Is it even culture at all, or are we just using the word "culture" out of sheer sentimentality because it makes us feel a little more comfortable?

If there's anyone on this forum who honestly believes they’ve managed to enrich, change, or shape culture through their own work or mere presence—please, step forward. I'd love to see it. But from where I'm sitting, culture today is susceptible to almost everything except the very people who are forced to live within it.

Just because we can't "escape" culture doesn't mean we have to blindly accept it, or that we aren't allowed to maintain a healthy, critical distance from it. As long as we keep believing in "culture" as if it's something inherently ours to cherish, it’s going to continue having a devastating effect on the individual.

It seems to me that the internet is the savior of culture. Culture, which has been disseminated from the top down since the days of Google, is undergoing a radical transformation thanks to the web. Fanzines, for instance, utilized this relatively well by pivoting toward online editions (though many certainly perished in the transition). Blogs are perhaps the best thing to happen to culture; do not be misled by the notion that blogs are merely "online diaries" for frustrated teenagers. That specific judgment is precisely what suggests that "culture" has been successfully imposed upon you from above...

Regarding culture and participating in it (and thus, the unconditional conformity that some might call it—or at least, that is how I interpret it), I can speak for myself. I feel like a member of this certain "culture," yet simultaneously, I refuse to accept certain cultural tenets that I find disagreeable—such as the idea that wealth is the sole metric of success. What does that make me? A conformist? A semi-conformist? A non-conformist? Perhaps a subversive conformist? I haven't the slightest clue, and truthfully, I am unsure how useful it is to attach labels to oneself (or to others).

Forgive the lack of coherence; if anyone manages to discern something interesting from this rambling, I shall be pleased. 🙂

(@shamantrixx - I am quoting your post because it compelled me to think aloud; please do not mistake this for a direct "rebuttal" to any specific point of yours.)
bluetiger13 bluetiger13 Member
20 messages
joined Dec 2007
#16 ·
someone wrote:... culture—the whole way of life...
so far, I guess we’ve basically concluded that fighting against culture is a losing game.

shamanatrixx—I’m not sure if you’re pushing back against one specific culture or just "culture" as the entire framework of how we live our lives?

I mean, there are always countercultures out there—plus, you can always build your own thing if you hate everything else currently on the menu.

...or maybe you're just totally against culture itself (which is a valid "cultural" stance, honestly—there’s been plenty written about that since Rousseau)

then you've got nature on the other side of the coin.

but personally? I don't think there's anything else for a human being.

There’s no such thing as some "authentic" self that exists before language kicks in. Maybe I’m just a product of brainwashing, but it feels like I’m constantly navigating through language—struggling, shedding layers of cultural nonsense, failing to shake off certain parts, and being exactly who I am because of it. Language birthed me and raised me—it's how I conclude, choose, and crave freedom. Not some empty, pre-discursive freedom, but a freedom found within language—one that’s lived-in and played with.
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 RegularOP
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#17 ·
loneorca34 said:
I don't even know where to start with this one. Honestly, I was just sitting here thinking about how much stuff changes, you know? Like, one day everything feels solid, and then—bam—everything shifts. It’s kind of wild when you really stop to look at it. I was actually talking to a friend about something similar the other day while we were grabbing coffee in Chicago, and we ended up going down this huge rabbit hole about how little control we actually have over the big things. Anyway, my brain is just buzzing with all this. What do you guys think? Is it just me, or is everything feeling a bit more... unsettled lately? I feel like I'm constantly trying to catch my breath just to keep up with the pace of it all. Just a thought. Or maybe a lot of thoughts. I can never tell. kaže:
So, I’ve been chewing on this whole idea of that "expanded" view of culture—you know, the one where everything from high art down to a random TikTok trend or a greasy burger joint is all lumped together under the same umbrella. Honestly? It’s a lot to wrap my head around. On one hand, I kind of love it. It feels more... I don't know, honest? Like, if we only talk about stuff like Shakespeare or those massive Broadway shows, we're basically ignoring how most people actually live their lives. Real life happens in the suburbs, at the local diner, or while you're scrolling through your phone on the subway. Including all that grit and everyday stuff makes the whole concept feel more human, less like some dusty museum exhibit. But man, I can't help but wonder if we're losing something vital in the process. If *everything* is culture, then does *anything* actually matter? It’s like when my buddy tried to argue that a bag of Flamin' Hot Cheetos was just as culturally significant as a masterpiece hanging in the MoMA. I mean, sure, they're iconic, but there's a certain weight, a certain craft, to the classics that you just don't get from a snack food. I worry that by stretching the definition so thin, we might end up diluting the things that actually challenge us or push us to be better. If we stop making distinctions, do we lose the ability to say, "Hey, this is truly extraordinary"? It’s a fine line to walk between being inclusive and just being... well, messy. What do you guys think? Am I just being old-fashioned, or is there a real risk in flattening everything out?

Man, you really started off on a super pessimistic note there! 😁

I’m gonna try to be as thorough as I possibly can here, so please, forgive me if this turns into a bit of a novel... honestly. Most of this is just what I can pull from my own memory, though I am leaning heavily on an old notebook of mine to keep things straight, so bear with me—some of these details might feel a little broad or general.

I mean, look, at its core, culture is basically just this massive, tangible, emotional web of human connection—you know? It’s everything we pour into texts, the images we stare at, even those little gestures we make without thinking. It’s the actual fabric of how we live together.
So, this whole idea really started picking up steam toward the end of the 18th century. It was mostly these German Romantics who were getting pretty fed up with how much French thought was dominating everything back then. I mean, you have to understand—at that time, the French were absolutely obsessed with this grand concept of "civilization." They were basically riding that wave hard, trying to push their way of thinking on everyone else, and it just drove the German intellectuals crazy.
When you really sit down and think about what "civilization" actually means... it’s more than just buildings or technology, you know? It’s that whole layer of stuff we wrap around ourselves—our logic, our manners, the way we carry ourselves, even the specific way we speak. It’s basically everything that separates a modern American from what people used to call "barbarians." You know the type—those folks who were seen as just pure instinct, totally unrefined, living without any of those social filters we rely on every single day. It's that sense of polish that makes us feel distinct.
Back in the day, you had these romanticists over in Germany who were just constantly at odds with their king. It was such a mess! They were always breathing down his neck because he was obsessed with French philosophy. Can you believe that? They felt like he was basically turning his back on his own people—ignoring the local artists and all those brilliant intellectuals right there at home—just to chase after what was trendy in France. And don't even get me started on the language thing. They were furious that he was prioritizing French over their own native tongue. It’s wild how much ego and cultural pride can stir up drama like that.
So, I was digging through some old files and stumbled upon these letters written by Shiller back in 1795. Honestly, I can’t even remember who he was actually writing to, or if there were dozens more just sitting around somewhere. But man, what he says about France really sticks with me. He basically argued that they were leaning way too hard on pure reason. His whole point was that you’ve gotta factor in the body, too—because let's face it, logic can explain just about anything, but it can't exactly explain itself. It feels like we're seeing this happen again today, where standards of taste have just completely shattered. There's no unity left. You can't just look at what the high-society elites like and call it a rule anymore; that kind of unquestionable authority is dead and gone. It’s actually pretty wild because the Germans used to look at France and see nothing but a barbaric state that cared way too much about surface-level form. For Shiller, though, true culture is something much deeper—something archaic, rooted in our actual senses. He was actually being pretty gentle in his critique, trying to find a middle ground between those two extremes. He called this balancing act the "play impulse," which is basically this drive to find a shared framework of agreement. Of course, he was mostly talking about art, but you can see how it applies to everything else, right?
You know, when you look at Goethe, his whole perspective really starts to make sense once you consider how much literature he felt was losing its spark back then. He was actually pushing for this comparative way of studying different civilizations—which, let's be honest, was a pretty wild idea at the time. Most people were just focused on conquest, you know? Just taking over and moving on. But he wanted to understand. And when it comes to the whole debate over civilization and culture, he was totally on the same page as Shiller. It’s that classic tug-of-war we always talk about: pure reason versus raw emotion.
So, you've got these two guys, right? And over the years, a whole swarm of intellectuals has basically built their entire legacies on top of them. It’s like they laid the foundation, and everyone else just kept adding floors to the building. Take Raymond Williams, for example—he’s out there deep in his feelings, totally rethinking what we actually mean when we talk about "culture." He breaks it down like this:
Culture isn't just some dusty thing you find in a museum—it’s more like this massive, invisible web woven right into our daily chats, whether we're just gossiping over coffee or debating big stuff in the public square. It’s layered, you know? It touches everything from the symbols we use to the weird little habits we all share. Because it's everywhere, "culture" has basically become this rhetorical tool itself. Its meaning keeps shifting depending on who's using it and where. Honestly, it's such a broad term that Hartley points out how it's totally multi-discursive. That's just a fancy way of saying it isn't stuck in one box; it can mean as many different things as there are different ways to talk about it.

Back during the Enlightenment era, people used to toss around the terms "culture" and "civilization" like they were basically the same thing. It was all part of this big push to frame culture as the ultimate symbol of progress. Basically, the rising middle class started using it as their main weapon against the old-school aristocracy—you know, those elites who had always been the face of French "civilization." It was their way of saying, "Hey, we're moving forward, and you're just stuck in the past."

So, I was sitting here thinking about Raymond Williams—you know, that guy we were talking about? It turns out he actually lays out three different ways to define culture. Three! It’s kind of wild how much depth there is when you really start digging into his work. It's not just one simple thing; it's layered, like how you might look at a classic movie versus just the way people hang out at a local diner on a Friday night. There's so much more to unpack than I first thought.
The "Ideal"—it’s basically this whole concept of polishing humans up to fit these universal standards and values. But honestly? I think there's a huge flaw in how he defines it. He just completely ignores the reality of social circumstances. It’s like he doesn't even care about the distinction between reaching some lofty peak of human development and actually, you know, having enough food on the table and meeting basic material needs. You can't really talk about perfecting the soul if people are struggling just to get by.

Documentary—think of it as this massive collection of mental imagery and imagination that acts like a storage unit for human thought and lived experience.
This basically birtched a whole branch of critical work that heads in a few different directions: it can highlight the absolute best of us (like an idealist would), it can zoom in on specific little pieces, or it can grow into this big historical critique that tries to link everything back to a specific tradition or the society that actually produced it. The only real headache with this definition is that you can't just boil culture down to what’s been written in books, nor can you ever really rip it away from the rest of what makes life, well, life.

Social—this is more about describing a specific way of living where certain meanings and values aren't just stuck in fine art or academic stuff, but show up in our institutions and how we act every single day. Or, if you want the short version, it’s the total sum of a way of life.
We really have to give Raymond Williams credit here; he’s the one who moved the whole concept of "culture" out of that stuffy, elitist bubble of "eternal values" and dropped it right into the messy, everyday experience of real people.

For me, the most fascinating bit about culture as a concept is this idea of webs of meaning. Geertz argues that humans are basically tangled up in a web of meanings they spun themselves, and our job is to try and crystallize those meanings. So, if we look at it analytically, we can define culture as this battlefield where everyone is fighting over what things mean. When we read the meaning behind a product or a text, we're looking at a production process with all sorts of social outcomes happening at different stages of its creation. We read a text as a byproduct of the context—the specific time and place it was born into. The tricky part is how differently everyone interprets those meanings, especially when every single interpretation tries to assert itself as the final, ultimate rulebook.

So, now we get to your take:
Your perspective is pretty structuralist, with a healthy helping of Marxism mixed in, 😁 and it mostly revolves—led by Foucault—around power dynamics. That brings us to the idea of hegemony, which is basically when an ideology is pushed so successfully that the ones promoting it (let's call them "the authorities") convince the people being targeted (let's call them "the public") to actually *want* to be part of that ideology. In a nutshell? It's colonization with consent. Talk about power at its peak.

Thanks for putting in the work—you really covered a lot of ground there. To be honest, I was actually looking for your take on those specific cultural niches where rejecting the status quo is basically a path toward enlightenment, but hey, no worries 🙂
casualwolf12 casualwolf12 Member
32 messages
joined Jan 2008
#18 ·
bluetiger13 said:someone wrote:... culture—the whole way of life...
so far, I guess we’ve basically concluded that fighting against culture is a losing game.

shamanatrixx—I’m not sure if you’re pushing back against one specific culture or just "culture" as the entire framework of how we live our lives?

I mean, there are always countercultures out there—plus, you can always build your own thing if you hate everything else currently on the menu.

...or maybe you're just totally against culture itself (which is a valid "cultural" stance, honestly—there’s been plenty written about that since Rousseau)

then you've got nature on the other side of the coin.

but personally? I don't think there's anything else for a human being.

There’s no such thing as some "authentic" self that exists before language kicks in. Maybe I’m just a product of brainwashing, but it feels like I’m constantly navigating through language—struggling, shedding layers of cultural nonsense, failing to shake off certain parts, and being exactly who I am because of it. Language birthed me and raised me—it's how I conclude, choose, and crave freedom. Not some empty, pre-discursive freedom, but a freedom found within language—one that’s lived-in and played with.

that... culture has no opposition, no antithesis... 👍
Edward Flores4 Edward Flores4 RegularOP
428 messages
joined Mar 2008
#19 ·
casualwolf12 said:It seems to me that the internet is the savior of culture. Culture, which has been disseminated from the top down since the days of Google, is undergoing a radical transformation thanks to the web. Fanzines, for instance, utilized this relatively well by pivoting toward online editions (though many certainly perished in the transition). Blogs are perhaps the best thing to happen to culture; do not be misled by the notion that blogs are merely "online diaries" for frustrated teenagers. That specific judgment is precisely what suggests that "culture" has been successfully imposed upon you from above...

Regarding culture and participating in it (and thus, the unconditional conformity that some might call it—or at least, that is how I interpret it), I can speak for myself. I feel like a member of this certain "culture," yet simultaneously, I refuse to accept certain cultural tenets that I find disagreeable—such as the idea that wealth is the sole metric of success. What does that make me? A conformist? A semi-conformist? A non-conformist? Perhaps a subversive conformist? I haven't the slightest clue, and truthfully, I am unsure how useful it is to attach labels to oneself (or to others).

Forgive the lack of coherence; if anyone manages to discern something interesting from this rambling, I shall be pleased. 🙂

(@shamantrixx - I am quoting your post because it compelled me to think aloud; please do not mistake this for a direct "rebuttal" to any specific point of yours.)

And beyond just changing, it’s becoming decentralized, which—if I’m being honest—is actually what gets me most excited about all this.

- don't let anyone trick you into thinking blogs are just "internet diaries" for frustrated teenagers... if that's how you see them, it probably means "culture" has been successfully spoon-fed to you from above...

You seem pretty comfortable with that whole "top-down" model of culture—or maybe it's just my impression?

...I feel like I belong to this certain "culture," but at the same time, I can't get behind some of its cultural settings that I just don't agree with—like the idea that wealth is the ultimate measure of success and all that... so, what does that make me?

Well, it depends... if your own standards are higher than those set by society, then that makes you a humanist—or, at the very least, someone who is intellectually and ethically developed.

If your standards are lower than society's... then I guess it's the exact opposite... though, hey, what do I know?! 🙂

...maybe a subversive conformist? I have no clue, and honestly, I'm not even sure how useful it is to slap labels on ourselves (or anyone else, for that matter)...

No. You just live your life however you can, while maintaining a healthy skepticism toward society's declared values and sticking to your own whenever you possibly can.

As for the labels... there's no need to pin them on other people... but you can't really avoid doing it to yourself. That said, it’s worth being thoughtful about it, because having the wrong ideas about your own priorities and values can turn into some pretty "expensive" mistakes.
Matthew Ortiz Matthew Ortiz Newcomer
7 messages
joined Sep 2008
#20 ·
Culture is, in a Freudian sense, just our way of defending ourselves against the raw forces of nature. It’s built on two pillars: repressing our instincts (otherwise, even the most hardcore totalitarian would have to accept repression just to survive) and coercion (because let's face it, people don't just wake up excited to go to work). This mental toolkit includes all those tools of force and prohibition that are baked into being human. Most of the time, culture doesn't need external muscle to stop us from acting on basic impulses like murder or cannibalism, but when someone does break those internal rules, we lean on social hierarchies to separate "civilized" humans from animals, turning culture into a forced way of living together. That’s why we have compensatory mechanisms, most notably religion. Religion acts as a psychological inventory and a universal neurotic compulsion, fueled by instinctual repression and fear, all aimed at shielding us from nature. We basically anthropomorphized nature by giving it a Freudian paternal character—since religion functions through a father-son dynamic via the entry and performance of le nom du père. So, religion becomes this weird mix of longing and dread, dogma and reflection, serving as a payoff for cultural coexistence. The real kicker is: if religion is a subset of culture and also an illusion (and I don't mean "illusion" as in something impossible, just something fabricated), then is culture itself just one big illusion?

When it comes to language, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis suggests that language actually shapes the structure of a culture. If Westerners categorize the world using nouns, verbs, adjectives, and so on, what does that say about our cultural makeup compared to a system that classifies everything by edible fruits, moving creatures, elements like water and fire, or dangerous things like violence and women? 😉

Ever since that Psammetichian experiment where they tried to find the oldest culture by isolating twins from birth (which resulted in them first saying bekkos, a Phrygian word for bread, leading to some quick deductions), language and culture have been linked. But there's this endless philosophical and linguistic debate over which one is the parent and which is the subset. From that historical anecdote told by Herodotus in History all the way to Derridean deconstruction of metaphysical oppositions, it’s clear that language, thought, and lifestyle are all tangled up. Ultimately, it feels like everything boils down to sociological interactionism or behaviorism reacting to linguistic signs. Does Derrida need to deconstruct the nature-culture opposition too? Probably. Especially following the Heideggerian idea that a metaphysician tries to philosophize about nature to rise above it, while actually being entirely defined by it. In the end, the subject just becomes an object, and we basically need a Peirce to bridge logic and philosophy with sociology and psychology to turn this mess of differences into a coherent structure. Or a system. Not a "system."

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