Getting way too soft/tolerant lately

Ever heard that phrase, "I hate Black people and racists"?

One thing I've been noticing on these forums lately. I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems pretty obvious...

I've noticed that the people who go out of their way to brag about being liberal, open-minded, or tolerant often end up being the biggest chauvinists and racists.

Like, you see women who constantly talk about fighting for gender equality, but then they turn around and defend women who commit violence against men. It's like women can never be wrong, and men are just trash who are always at fault.🙄

And what about those self-proclaimed "leftists" who make excuses for communist atrocities?

I once read an atheist saying we should basically have a holocaust for all religions. But that same person will start whining the second a church official says anything about atheists.

For example, there are tons of people who say, "No, I'm not a right-winger or a racist, I just don't like Mexicans and I don't want to see a mosque in my neighborhood."

Or someone claiming to love Jews while simultaneously backing an Iranian president who’s calling for the destruction of Israel and stuff.

What do you guys think about people like that?

Let’s start by asking ourselves what tolerance actually means. Does it mean we truly understand and accept what we are tolerating in any given instance? Or does it sometimes just mean, "I don't really want to dig into this," while clinging to the image of being a tolerant, liberal person who isn't bothered by anything? It feels like some people permit everything not because they grasp the nuances, but simply because they want to maintain distance from certain people or social phenomena. They basically say, "Look, I get where they're coming from, but please, just take your hand off my shoulder so I can move on." In eras that allow for it, tolerance even becomes a status symbol or a marketable commodity—which explains the growing dissonance we see today.
If I am truly going to reflect on something, I need to put myself in a position where I confront the things that actually bother me and ask why they cause discomfort. But nowadays, the concept of tolerance is being used as a tool for brainwashing. A mind that is convinced of its own tolerance often fails to think critically about the specific issue at hand; it remains "tolerant" by default, granting permission for everything, which ultimately turns that person into the perfect, unquestioning consumer.

Anthony Taylor393 said:Ever heard that phrase, "I hate Black people and racists"?

One thing I've been noticing on these forums lately. I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems pretty obvious...

I've noticed that the people who go out of their way to brag about being liberal, open-minded, or tolerant often end up being the biggest chauvinists and racists.

Like, you see women who constantly talk about fighting for gender equality, but then they turn around and defend women who commit violence against men. It's like women can never be wrong, and men are just trash who are always at fault.🙄

And what about those self-proclaimed "leftists" who make excuses for communist atrocities?

I once read an atheist saying we should basically have a holocaust for all religions. But that same person will start whining the second a church official says anything about atheists.

For example, there are tons of people who say, "No, I'm not a right-winger or a racist, I just don't like Mexicans and I don't want to see a mosque in my neighborhood."

Or someone claiming to love Jews while simultaneously backing an Iranian president who’s calling for the destruction of Israel and stuff.

What do you guys think about people like that?

Everyone claims they’re exactly who they ought to be—it's just classic hypocrisy. Personally, I don't buy it when someone calls themselves "tolerant" or "liberal"—I wait for their actual views to prove them right or wrong. Usually, if someone goes out of their way to say they're tolerant, that's my cue to watch them even closer, because they rarely are.

Then you've got the ones with no backbone at all—either they have no opinions, or they're too terrified to voice them, which leads to being completely contradictory.

I have zero patience for those who preach intolerance. Lastane, would you consider me intolerant for feeling that way?

Anthony Taylor393 said:Ever heard that phrase, "I hate Black people and racists"?

One thing I've been noticing on these forums lately. I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems pretty obvious...

I've noticed that the people who go out of their way to brag about being liberal, open-minded, or tolerant often end up being the biggest chauvinists and racists.

Like, you see women who constantly talk about fighting for gender equality, but then they turn around and defend women who commit violence against men. It's like women can never be wrong, and men are just trash who are always at fault.🙄

And what about those self-proclaimed "leftists" who make excuses for communist atrocities?

I once read an atheist saying we should basically have a holocaust for all religions. But that same person will start whining the second a church official says anything about atheists.

For example, there are tons of people who say, "No, I'm not a right-winger or a racist, I just don't like Mexicans and I don't want to see a mosque in my neighborhood."

Or someone claiming to love Jews while simultaneously backing an Iranian president who’s calling for the destruction of Israel and stuff.

What do you guys think about people like that?

Well, everyone’s got their own reasons for acting the way they do.
I’ve actually noticed a bit of a pattern lately—it seems like the more someone tries to brag about a specific positive trait, the more it feels like they're actually overcompensating for a total lack of it. It’s almost like a psychological tell.

So, what are you really hoping to get out of this discussion?

My whole philosophy starts with a simple premise: you should be free to do whatever you want, provided you aren't hurting anyone else in the process.

For instance, if I say I’m fine with gay marriage or Pride parades—which I am—it’s because I don't see how living that way harms a single soul. But when someone starts making a massive scene protesting those rights, it sends a signal to me. It suggests they might eventually end up standing in the middle of Central Park with a Molotov cocktail in their hand, looking to cause actual harm. And when it comes to people like that... well, I have zero tolerance. That's where the line gets drawn.

Nicole James said:I have zero patience for those who preach intolerance. Lastane, would you consider me intolerant for feeling that way?

So, what's the plan? Are we actually throwing Molotov cocktails at the bigots together? 🥳

redmarlin3 said:My whole philosophy starts with a simple premise: you should be free to do whatever you want, provided you aren't hurting anyone else in the process.

For instance, if I say I’m fine with gay marriage or Pride parades—which I am—it’s because I don't see how living that way harms a single soul. But when someone starts making a massive scene protesting those rights, it sends a signal to me. It suggests they might eventually end up standing in the middle of Central Park with a Molotov cocktail in their hand, looking to cause actual harm. And when it comes to people like that... well, I have zero tolerance. That's where the line gets drawn.

😈 This is one of those very common ways people oversimplify things that are actually quite complex...

In the real world, that just doesn't work. First off, there is no universal definition of what constitutes "harming" someone. Everyone has their own set of values, and what one person considers harmful, another might see as perfectly fine. Beyond that, it’s rarely a matter of avoiding harm altogether—it’s usually about deciding how much "minimal" harm is acceptable based on someone else's highly subjective criteria.

So, while the "live and let live" principle sounds incredibly easy and even cool, in practice, it ends up meaning whatever anyone wants it to mean, depending entirely on how they choose to define their own rules.

Mind if I jump in here? Honestly, I can't stand intolerant people either...

But now we're hitting on this super interesting dilemma: do the people who hate intolerance actually end up hating themselves in the process? 😬

lonegardener said:😈 This is one of those very common ways people oversimplify things that are actually quite complex...

In the real world, that just doesn't work. First off, there is no universal definition of what constitutes "harming" someone. Everyone has their own set of values, and what one person considers harmful, another might see as perfectly fine. Beyond that, it’s rarely a matter of avoiding harm altogether—it’s usually about deciding how much "minimal" harm is acceptable based on someone else's highly subjective criteria.

So, while the "live and let live" principle sounds incredibly easy and even cool, in practice, it ends up meaning whatever anyone wants it to mean, depending entirely on how they choose to define their own rules.

Every single fix seems to just spawn a whole new set of headaches, doesn't it? It’s like we’re constantly running on a treadmill, sweating through our shirts just to stay in the exact same spot... why even bother sometimes? You solve one issue, and suddenly three more pop up out of nowhere, staring you right in the face. It makes you wonder if there's actually such a thing as progress, or if we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic... 😈 😁

lonegardener said:😈 This is one of those very common ways people oversimplify things that are actually quite complex...

In the real world, that just doesn't work. First off, there is no universal definition of what constitutes "harming" someone. Everyone has their own set of values, and what one person considers harmful, another might see as perfectly fine. Beyond that, it’s rarely a matter of avoiding harm altogether—it’s usually about deciding how much "minimal" harm is acceptable based on someone else's highly subjective criteria.

So, while the "live and let live" principle sounds incredibly easy and even cool, in practice, it ends up meaning whatever anyone wants it to mean, depending entirely on how they choose to define their own rules.

I’ve got a real soft spot for the Declaration of Human Rights... 😍 She’s supposed to be "universal." Right. As if...

lonegardener said:😈 This is one of those very common ways people oversimplify things that are actually quite complex...

In the real world, that just doesn't work. First off, there is no universal definition of what constitutes "harming" someone. Everyone has their own set of values, and what one person considers harmful, another might see as perfectly fine. Beyond that, it’s rarely a matter of avoiding harm altogether—it’s usually about deciding how much "minimal" harm is acceptable based on someone else's highly subjective criteria.

So, while the "live and let live" principle sounds incredibly easy and even cool, in practice, it ends up meaning whatever anyone wants it to mean, depending entirely on how they choose to define their own rules.

If we’re really going to go down this road and start relativizing everything, then fine... I guess we should probably stop and question whether every single breath we take or step we move is causing harm to someone else first. Might as well be thorough about it, right?

lonegardener said:😈 This is one of those very common ways people oversimplify things that are actually quite complex...

In the real world, that just doesn't work. First off, there is no universal definition of what constitutes "harming" someone. Everyone has their own set of values, and what one person considers harmful, another might see as perfectly fine. Beyond that, it’s rarely a matter of avoiding harm altogether—it’s usually about deciding how much "minimal" harm is acceptable based on someone else's highly subjective criteria.

So, while the "live and let live" principle sounds incredibly easy and even cool, in practice, it ends up meaning whatever anyone wants it to mean, depending entirely on how they choose to define their own rules.

We really ought to be looking at every single case on an individual basis. We need to nail down exactly where the line is drawn when it comes to infringing on someone else's freedom and personal integrity... and then figure out how we're actually supposed to respond to that.

redmarlin3 said:Every single fix seems to just spawn a whole new set of headaches, doesn't it? It’s like we’re constantly running on a treadmill, sweating through our shirts just to stay in the exact same spot... why even bother sometimes? You solve one issue, and suddenly three more pop up out of nowhere, staring you right in the face. It makes you wonder if there's actually such a thing as progress, or if we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic... 😈 😁

I’ve got a real soft spot for the Declaration of Human Rights... 😍 She’s supposed to be "universal." Right. As if...

If we’re really going to go down this road and start relativizing everything, then fine... I guess we should probably stop and question whether every single breath we take or step we move is causing harm to someone else first. Might as well be thorough about it, right?

We really ought to be looking at every single case on an individual basis. We need to nail down exactly where the line is drawn when it comes to infringing on someone else's freedom and personal integrity... and then figure out how we're actually supposed to respond to that.

Paper can handle just about anything... especially a pile of beautiful wishes.

redmarlin3 said:Every single fix seems to just spawn a whole new set of headaches, doesn't it? It’s like we’re constantly running on a treadmill, sweating through our shirts just to stay in the exact same spot... why even bother sometimes? You solve one issue, and suddenly three more pop up out of nowhere, staring you right in the face. It makes you wonder if there's actually such a thing as progress, or if we're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic... 😈 😁

I’ve got a real soft spot for the Declaration of Human Rights... 😍 She’s supposed to be "universal." Right. As if...

If we’re really going to go down this road and start relativizing everything, then fine... I guess we should probably stop and question whether every single breath we take or step we move is causing harm to someone else first. Might as well be thorough about it, right?

We really ought to be looking at every single case on an individual basis. We need to nail down exactly where the line is drawn when it comes to infringing on someone else's freedom and personal integrity... and then figure out how we're actually supposed to respond to that.

Of course. In fact, I think we're actually on the same page... except I'm not the one practicing relativism here. I'm simply observing the current reality, whether people like it or not. Isn't it a plain fact that conflicting value systems are floating all around us? Look, this isn't about my personal opinion; it's just an observation you can see everywhere. The very existence of these different value systems means that everyone defines "harm" differently. No declaration can erase that truth. In fact, one could argue that any attempt to force a "universal" value system onto everyone is itself a fundamental violation of the right to define what one values!

So, what is an indecisive person like me supposed to do? Set my own boundaries and criteria? Align myself with the system that impresses me most? Or just go with whatever seems to be the most popular? How do you handle it?

Honestly, I feel like people rarely stop to actually think about what’s coming out of their mouths. Should we really label someone a bigot or some other horrible thing just because of one single comment? Maybe not. But if that kind of rhetoric is just part of their core identity—their whole way of being—then it clearly points to some deep-seated internal conflicts they haven't figured out how to resolve yet. I don't have a strong personal stance on this, though I certainly wouldn't want to be surrounded by people who think like that... still, I'm just not ready to condemn someone over one massive blunder. (Which, if I'm being real, happens way more often than you'd think)

lonegardener said:Paper can handle just about anything... especially a pile of beautiful wishes.

Of course. In fact, I think we're actually on the same page... except I'm not the one practicing relativism here. I'm simply observing the current reality, whether people like it or not. Isn't it a plain fact that conflicting value systems are floating all around us? Look, this isn't about my personal opinion; it's just an observation you can see everywhere. The very existence of these different value systems means that everyone defines "harm" differently. No declaration can erase that truth. In fact, one could argue that any attempt to force a "universal" value system onto everyone is itself a fundamental violation of the right to define what one values!

So, what is an indecisive person like me supposed to do? Set my own boundaries and criteria? Align myself with the system that impresses me most? Or just go with whatever seems to be the most popular? How do you handle it?

Exactly.
And saying "live and let live" actually implies that you should bother considering a value system that isn't yours—meaning you adjust your own behavior to account for someone else's totally different definition of harm.

In practice, it's not actually that hard; you usually find you can pull off that little mental gymnastic quite easily if you actually give a damn.😁

silentnomad23 said:Let’s start by asking ourselves what tolerance actually means. Does it mean we truly understand and accept what we are tolerating in any given instance? Or does it sometimes just mean, "I don't really want to dig into this," while clinging to the image of being a tolerant, liberal person who isn't bothered by anything? It feels like some people permit everything not because they grasp the nuances, but simply because they want to maintain distance from certain people or social phenomena. They basically say, "Look, I get where they're coming from, but please, just take your hand off my shoulder so I can move on." In eras that allow for it, tolerance even becomes a status symbol or a marketable commodity—which explains the growing dissonance we see today.
If I am truly going to reflect on something, I need to put myself in a position where I confront the things that actually bother me and ask why they cause discomfort. But nowadays, the concept of tolerance is being used as a tool for brainwashing. A mind that is convinced of its own tolerance often fails to think critically about the specific issue at hand; it remains "tolerant" by default, granting permission for everything, which ultimately turns that person into the perfect, unquestioning consumer.

It really is. It's become incredibly trendy to claim you're "tolerant," acting like you understand everyone and everything without ever passing judgment, simply because......
people say what they're supposed to say at first, but eventually... by the third time around, they start saying what they actually think, and you don't have to wait long to see it happen 🙂

Sandra Parker3 said:Exactly.
And saying "live and let live" actually implies that you should bother considering a value system that isn't yours—meaning you adjust your own behavior to account for someone else's totally different definition of harm.

In practice, it's not actually that hard; you usually find you can pull off that little mental gymnastic quite easily if you actually give a damn.😁

Do you honestly believe that?

From where I'm sitting, looking at the broader sweep of civilization, I suspect it's a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be...

lonegardener said:Paper can handle just about anything... especially a pile of beautiful wishes.

Of course. In fact, I think we're actually on the same page... except I'm not the one practicing relativism here. I'm simply observing the current reality, whether people like it or not. Isn't it a plain fact that conflicting value systems are floating all around us? Look, this isn't about my personal opinion; it's just an observation you can see everywhere. The very existence of these different value systems means that everyone defines "harm" differently. No declaration can erase that truth. In fact, one could argue that any attempt to force a "universal" value system onto everyone is itself a fundamental violation of the right to define what one values!

So, what is an indecisive person like me supposed to do? Set my own boundaries and criteria? Align myself with the system that impresses me most? Or just go with whatever seems to be the most popular? How do you handle it?

This is where those cultural patterns really start to show through. Obviously, value systems aren't one-size-fits-all; they're incredibly diverse. Neither you nor I can truly wrap our heads around what it's like to live among the Maasai or navigate the chaos of a massive metropolis like Tokyo. All we can really do is assume that every single human being is entitled to certain fundamental rights... regardless of where they land on the map.

lonegardener said:Paper can handle just about anything... especially a pile of beautiful wishes.

Of course. In fact, I think we're actually on the same page... except I'm not the one practicing relativism here. I'm simply observing the current reality, whether people like it or not. Isn't it a plain fact that conflicting value systems are floating all around us? Look, this isn't about my personal opinion; it's just an observation you can see everywhere. The very existence of these different value systems means that everyone defines "harm" differently. No declaration can erase that truth. In fact, one could argue that any attempt to force a "universal" value system onto everyone is itself a fundamental violation of the right to define what one values!

So, what is an indecisive person like me supposed to do? Set my own boundaries and criteria? Align myself with the system that impresses me most? Or just go with whatever seems to be the most popular? How do you handle it?

Exactly. Personally, I don't see much point in getting dragged into these debates where I feel like I have to defend my own position. If everything was just "settled" and there was nothing left to argue about, this whole forum would be a pretty boring place to hang out... 😍

lonegardener said:Paper can handle just about anything... especially a pile of beautiful wishes.

Of course. In fact, I think we're actually on the same page... except I'm not the one practicing relativism here. I'm simply observing the current reality, whether people like it or not. Isn't it a plain fact that conflicting value systems are floating all around us? Look, this isn't about my personal opinion; it's just an observation you can see everywhere. The very existence of these different value systems means that everyone defines "harm" differently. No declaration can erase that truth. In fact, one could argue that any attempt to force a "universal" value system onto everyone is itself a fundamental violation of the right to define what one values!

So, what is an indecisive person like me supposed to do? Set my own boundaries and criteria? Align myself with the system that impresses me most? Or just go with whatever seems to be the most popular? How do you handle it?

Alright, here's what I actually consider worth something... For myself... Look, just because he thinks he’s in charge doesn't mean he actually has the right to force his will on everyone else, or act like he can call the shots on this matter...

Take this example: there’s always someone out there who thinks being gay is some kind of sickness or a mental disorder. They’ll swear up and down they would NEVER be gay themselves, even if they’re secretly carrying those feelings deep down. But honestly, as long as they aren't interacting with gay people—as long as those people aren't bothering them or messing with their way of life... On a personal level... Look, regardless of whatever value system you're trying to push... he shouldn't have any right to go sticking his nose into their lives like that. It’s just not right...

Quincy:

lonegardener I think I've said this before, but let me just lay it out clearly... people really need to stop overcomplicating things when the answer is staring them right in the face. It’s like watching someone struggle to open a door that says "pull" when they're clearly pushing with everything they've got. You see it all the time in these discussions, where everyone starts circling around the point, adding layers of unnecessary noise, instead of just addressing the actual issue at hand. It's frustrating, honestly. You try to make a simple, logical argument, and suddenly you're being told you're missing some deep, esoteric nuance that doesn't actually exist. It's just fluff. Pure fluff designed to make people feel smarter than they actually are... which, let's be honest, happens more often than it should. Anyway, my point stands. If we can't agree on the basic facts, there's no sense in even having the conversation... So, what’s a guy like me supposed to do when he can't make up his mind? Am I expected to just sit here and draw up my own set of rules and boundaries from scratch? Or should I just lean into the established system that actually commands some respect... or maybe just go with whatever happens to be the most popular trend at the moment? How exactly do you handle it...

What should someone who can't make up their mind actually do? Honestly, I don't know. It’s just not my style to go around pushing my views on everyone else.
If we all operate under our own internal compass, then that naturally brings certain boundaries and standards into play. Maybe the least painful way to set those rules is pretty simple: just don't cause anyone physical or mental distress, and don't strip away anyone's freedom, dignity, or right to speak their mind...
Looking back at what I just wrote, it sounds like one of those tired old clichés you hear in a self-help book, but maybe that’s not such a bad thing in itself. That's how I handle things; whether that's the most popular way to live, though... I couldn't tell you. 🤷

It’s kind of ironic when I think about how I used to be... well, let's just say I wasn't nearly as tolerant back then.
And then I signed up for this forum. 😉

When you notice someone pivoting between two completely contradictory stances on the same topic, it’s a dead giveaway that they don't actually care about the subject at hand;
they’re really just trying to manipulate the conversation toward some other agenda.

It seems to me that these types cling to their moral high ground only when there’s an audience watching—it's purely performative, not a matter of personal conviction. But the moment you actually challenge them with a direct, pointed question, they tend to stumble, lose their footing, and lash out.
...And honestly, they'll probably hold a grudge against you for the rest of their lives.🙂

"Being tolerant" sounds like such a beautiful, noble concept. But honestly? It’s incredibly easy to be tolerant toward things that feel worlds away from your own life.

I don't want to paint everyone with the same brush or make sweeping generalizations about "everyone," so instead, I'll just share something deeply personal from my own life.

I always believed—truly, I did—that I was an open-minded person and that being gay was perfectly fine. That was until a close friend of mine came out to me, and it felt like a bolt of lightning had struck my brain. In that moment, I realized just how many subconscious biases I actually held. It turns out it's remarkably easy to preach "live and let live" when the reality isn't knocking on your own front door.
He is still a wonderful friend today, and honestly, we’ve both grown immensely through our respective relationships. But back then, it was something I truly had to work to accept and adjust to. I had to do some serious internal heavy lifting to dismantle my own supposed liberalism and realize that accepting difference is one thing when it's happening somewhere else, but it's a completely different beast when it hits home.

(Just to be crystal clear, I wasn't trying to pressure him to "change" or anything like that 😁 😁 😁)

As for today, all I know is that I am constantly striving to be tolerant and progressive. But I also know that I haven't quite reached that goal yet. Because if a Muslim colleague were to invite me over to his house and drop me into a world that is fundamentally different from mine, I know I wouldn't have all the answers immediately. It would take some time. I think the only real difference between people is that some will take the necessary time to process and embrace diversity, while others will simply reject it outright.

Anthony Taylor393 said:Ever heard that phrase, "I hate Black people and racists"?

One thing I've been noticing on these forums lately. I don't want to offend anyone, but it seems pretty obvious...

I've noticed that the people who go out of their way to brag about being liberal, open-minded, or tolerant often end up being the biggest chauvinists and racists.

Like, you see women who constantly talk about fighting for gender equality, but then they turn around and defend women who commit violence against men. It's like women can never be wrong, and men are just trash who are always at fault.🙄

And what about those self-proclaimed "leftists" who make excuses for communist atrocities?

I once read an atheist saying we should basically have a holocaust for all religions. But that same person will start whining the second a church official says anything about atheists.

For example, there are tons of people who say, "No, I'm not a right-winger or a racist, I just don't like Mexicans and I don't want to see a mosque in my neighborhood."

Or someone claiming to love Jews while simultaneously backing an Iranian president who’s calling for the destruction of Israel and stuff.

What do you guys think about people like that?

Interesting question. If I’m following you, you’re looking for consistency. Basically, the double standards are what’s getting under your skin. To actually have consistent views and a coherent worldview, you pretty much need two things: first, people have to actually think for themselves, and second, they have to stay objective. In my experience, 95% of people don't think for themselves at all; they just adopt whatever script their group hands them—whether it's a political party, a religious sect, or whatever. On top of that, the media manufactures public opinion, and people just swallow it whole without a second thought.
Being objective is also incredibly hard for a ton of different reasons. If you're interested, check out this article http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten.../320/5880/1177

lonegardener said:Do you honestly believe that?

From where I'm sitting, looking at the broader sweep of civilization, I suspect it's a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be...

It’s not about believing, I know it's true.

What kind of "glance at civilization," even a casual one, 😁
isn't really just about you and your own attitudes and how you act?

The whole "live and let live" thing basically boils down to staying out of business that isn't yours
which makes things much easier.
I'm pretty sure most people instinctively know where that line is drawn.
If you’re hell-bent on making life miserable for someone or some group, there’s nothing that’ll stop you.

So, the issue isn't some failure to balance value systems or whatever—it's just that you simply want to.