Monument to Francisco Franco removed

Matthew Harris2 said:Spain is easily the most progressive country in Europe. Hats off to them. Everyone, even the absolute morons, has rights now. 🙏 Last year I was in Madrid and Toledo and I was blown away by the country, the people, and the society in general. Most people there can't stand conservatives or the holy church and lean socialist. What else is there to say? It's HEAVEN ON EARTH 🙏

Are you kidding me right now? This is getting ridiculous. At this rate, we'll be legally recognizing marriages between livestock and humans just because "feelings matter"... what a joke... 😂
Spain is a total disaster of a country... Nature shouldn't have made it this way just so everyone else can point and laugh...

Matthew Harris2 said:Spain is easily the most progressive country in Europe. Hats off to them. Everyone, even the absolute morons, has rights now. 🙏 Last year I was in Madrid and Toledo and I was blown away by the country, the people, and the society in general. Most people there can't stand conservatives or the holy church and lean socialist. What else is there to say? It's HEAVEN ON EARTH 🙏

Yeah, right. Just some isolated case of suburban kids suddenly acting like they're obsessed with socialism... 😂

Terry Lopez45 said:🤣

Come on, Taft—admit it, you only like Frank because his Moroccan troops brought him the victory and the power.😍

Changing the subject slightly: Franco simply did not deserve a monument. He was a modern dictator who held contempt for liberalism and democracy; sure, there were many worse than him, but that doesn't change the fact that he was a bad leader.

The worst part of all this is that a monument symbolizes a legacy for future generations, and young Americans shouldn't have to live in the shadow of a Fascist dictator.

I think there might be a rather significant logical fallacy in your reasoning, where you seem to be applying modern standards to people and events from the past. Perhaps if we look at it differently, Frank's achievements included thwarting the communist revolution, protecting the nation from the devastation of WWII, and strengthening national identity and pan-Spanish nationalism—which, while maybe not viewed favorably from a Catalan or Basque perspective, did manage to keep the nation unified. Then there was the successful "national reconciliation" project following the civil war, and finally, perhaps most importantly, his somewhat atypical awareness of his own mortality, which motivated him to prepare the way for a restoration of the monarchy to preserve Spanish sovereignty and national focus after his passing, while simultaneously leaving enough room for citizens to eventually organize the country according to future needs.

Because of those factors, I feel that Frank does indeed deserve monuments in Spain.

However, I suspect that some future generations might run into quite a bit of trouble if they start looking for people from our current era of "liberal democracy" to build monuments to... maybe Tony Blair? Angela Merkel? José Manuel Barroso? Hmm... I suppose a new topic is forming in my mind...😕

vividrider3 said:Sure, he was "clever" enough to kill over 300,000 of his own countrymen—that's how clever he was. I don't know how much intelligence you need to have to suck up to a common murderer and dictator.

And let's not forget he also murdered
Josip Broz Marshall... and look what he left us... a total disaster! Nobody is out here worshiping Francisco Franco. Instead... I'm just sitting here wondering... who exactly are we putting on a pedestal... and why? What kind of logic are we even using?
Our big idol was a man who sanctioned mass killings... all under the banner of "justice" and "anti-fascism" and some glorious future?
And at the end of the day... where did this "bright future" actually lead us? Because his so-called anti-fascist heroes... they just ended up breeding the worst kind of thugs and criminals!
Meanwhile... just down the road... that "fascist" left behind actual order and a decent future for his people (especially compared to our catastrophic shared history and endless blunders)!

vividrider3 said:The monument to that criminal dictator—a man who slaughtered his own people—has finally been taken down. It’s funny how certain anti-Western, hardline communist types always seem to find ways to spin the narrative whenever something goes against their agenda.

When did they take down the Marshall-like statue? 🤣

But seriously, Franco's movement was back on track, but those Spanish Communists, anarchists, and socialists were just too extreme. Even George Orwell, a guy who swore by the left, ended up renouncing communism after seeing how they treated anyone who didn't fall in line—even their own people...

Lisa Walker31 said:And let's not forget he also murdered
Josip Broz Marshall... and look what he left us... a total disaster! Nobody is out here worshiping Francisco Franco. Instead... I'm just sitting here wondering... who exactly are we putting on a pedestal... and why? What kind of logic are we even using?
Our big idol was a man who sanctioned mass killings... all under the banner of "justice" and "anti-fascism" and some glorious future?
And at the end of the day... where did this "bright future" actually lead us? Because his so-called anti-fascist heroes... they just ended up breeding the worst kind of thugs and criminals!
Meanwhile... just down the road... that "fascist" left behind actual order and a decent future for his people (especially compared to our catastrophic shared history and endless blunders)!

I am not interested in Marshall because he isn't the point. That said, I view Marshall as a criminal, just like Francisco Franco. However, your idealization of a common murderer and dictator is fascinating. How can you speak of a "bright future" when a dictator slaughters 300,000 innocent people? Do you honestly think the families of those victims look back and thank Francisco Franco for his version of a bright future? It is truly incredible how some people think. From an economic standpoint, one could argue about the supposed benefits Franco left behind for the people of Spain.

Hey, vividrider3, does it really not bother you that Americans killed a million and a half people in Iraq? And yet, you’re still out here backing them to go after Iran.

swiftcrane96 said:Hey, vividrider3, does it really not bother you that Americans killed a million and a half people in Iraq? And yet, you’re still out here backing them to go after Iran.

Don't go throwing numbers around like that. It can get dangerous...

Well, my bad, here goes: about a million http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_de...aspx?NewsId=88

swiftcrane96 said:Well, my bad, here goes: about a million http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_de...aspx?NewsId=88

That number just comes from some article I saw...

The death toll was probably closer to 350,000 or 500,000, mostly due to all those internal fights between Sunnis and Shiites...

swiftcrane96 said:Hey, vividrider3, does it really not bother you that Americans killed a million and a half people in Iraq? And yet, you’re still out here backing them to go after Iran.

Your numbers are wrong, and I have no idea how this relates to the topic, much less how Americans are responsible for the exact death toll in Iraq.

vividrider3 said:I am not interested in Marshall because he isn't the point. That said, I view Marshall as a criminal, just like Francisco Franco. However, your idealization of a common murderer and dictator is fascinating. How can you speak of a "bright future" when a dictator slaughters 300,000 innocent people? Do you honestly think the families of those victims look back and thank Francisco Franco for his version of a bright future? It is truly incredible how some people think. From an economic standpoint, one could argue about the supposed benefits Franco left behind for the people of Spain.

Oh my god... even you are being a total jerk regarding my so-called "idealization" of Francisco Franco. Seriously... I am not idealizing anyone... I'm just weighing the pros and cons. I've been looking at Marshall and Franco side-by-side, and I've come to the conclusion that... well, in the end, Francisco actually turned out to be the "better" man! (Even though, like so many other idiots from the old regime... I'm still slightly under the spell of our late, great, charismatic leader😍 the second Marshall😉))