Italy - Italian Republic

So, what's the latest scoop from the Italian Republic? Any updates on the politics—elections, the economy, or those classic North vs. South debates?
I couldn't find any newer threads 🤷

Sarah Newman2 said:We aren't primitive by nature; we've just been crushed by oppressors for centuries, which has left us stuck with this inferiority complex.

And unfortunately, that submissive mindset persists too.

Use this thread to dump everything you think about Italy and the Italian people.

Berlusconi is making a comeback!

🙂
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Can someone who actually speaks Italian explain the whole Silvio Berlusconi phenomenon to me?
Who is even voting for this guy? I was reading somewhere that about 25% of Italians would vote for him again.
The man polarizes society not just in Italy, but globally. To some, he’s an untouchable king; to others, he’s just an old, immoral pervert.
What are the actual odds of Silvio becoming Prime Minister again?

It looks like Prime Minister Mario Monti will run as a centrist candidate in the upcoming elections.
http://www.mizonews.net/world/italy-...2013-election/

Here is how the polls are looking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_It...neral_election

PD at 36% - Democratic Left
PdL at 18% - Berlusconi
M5S at 13% - Five Star Movement (led by a comedian)🤷
Lega Nord is sitting around 4%

The Italians and their incredibly chaotic political scene definitely deserve their own dedicated thread.

😢 This thread is pretty dead so far.

ELECTION DATE FEBRUARY 24: Italy sits in limbo as Monti prepares for a showdown with Berlusconi / Inoslav Bešker
ROME - The political tug-of-war regarding the next general election date seems to have landed on February 24, 2013. President Giorgio Napolitano essentially gave the nod on Wednesday night, though he’s clearly trying to navigate around Silvio Berlusconi's latest moves.

Napolitano previously suggested that elections should happen in the first half of April, provided that Congress manages to pass the Stabilization Act (which includes the 2013 budget) and pushes through about five or six other reforms that Maria Monti's technical government originally introduced as decrees. Since Berlusconi's party pulled its support from Monti's administration, Monti was forced to announce he would step down immediately after the Stabilization Act passes, which is expected by the end of this week.
The People's Freedom Maneuver

This timing effectively kills any chance of changing the electoral law—a move that Roberto Calderoli himself called a total mess back in 2006. His goal then was to prevent a stable majority in the Senate, knowing full well that the center-left led by Romano Prodi was likely to win.

Fast forward to now, and Berlusconi's People's Freedom party spent the last few days stalling the debate over the upcoming national budget in the Senate. It's a classic Berlusconi maneuver: try to buy some time while flooding TV screens with enough presence to win back lost voters, hoping to flip the polls and snatch a victory. At the very least, he’s successfully creating the same kind of chaos in the Senate that we saw back in 2006.

Mario Monti is being used as a pawn in these maneuvers too. He turned down the chance to lead the center-right coalition, but following a Wednesday afternoon meeting with Pier Ferdinando Casini—the leader of several small centrist parties—and his own Democratic Party ministers, Andrea Riccardi and Enzo Moaver, Casini signaled that Monti will back their group. Their platform aligns with Monti's agenda, which also has the backing of the European People's Party, effectively isolating Berlusconi from his own allies.

Bersani left out in the cold

As a result, the center-left and their prime ministerial candidate, Pier Luigi Bersani, find themselves isolated. This is a huge shift, considering that just a few months ago, everyone assumed Bersani on one side and Casini and Fin on the other would easily form a moderate coalition.

According to current polling, Bersani's camp is looking at about 38% of the vote, while Berlusconi is sitting around 15%. That’s what the Democrats were counting on too, though they’re now praying for a massive surge since Monti personally enjoys higher approval ratings than Bersani.

To make matters even more chaotic, Congress might not decide on the rules for signature collection for non-incumbent parties until Thursday. The current government is maneuvering to make things easier for groups claiming the "Monti" mantle, while making life difficult for the Left Ecology Freedom party (which is in a coalition with Bersani's Democratic Party) and especially the anti-establishment Five Star Movement led by the eccentric Beppe Grillo. Grillo's movement is also polling at 15%, which could seriously disrupt the plans of the traditional political heavyweights.

Couldn't find a more recent thread on this

Anyone who missed the screening at Cannes probably could have found it easily yesterday.

It’s an intense, pretty jarring documentary. It uses a massive natural disaster—like that huge earthquake in L'Aquila—to really dig into the state of the nation and what "democracy" actually looked like in the Italian Republic under Berlusconi.
I guess it asks how much the government actually gives a damn about disaster victims, and what crisis management is supposed to look like in the first place.☕

Let Berlusconi come back, or let the Democrats or Republicans take over—I honestly don't care. But having Monti there, someone nobody actually voted for, just acting as a glorified babysitter for the big banks? I hope he gets out of Italy immediately. If he leaves, there’s a much better chance we won't see another one of these types popping up somewhere else elsewhere.

Where on earth did you—and honestly, a bunch of other people too—get this idea that nobody actually voted for Monti? Where is this nonsense coming from? Besides, did Americans even get to pick Milanović? I don't recall seeing his name on a single ballot for Prime Minister.

Look, Monti became PM in the exact same way Milanović did—which is basically how it works in almost every country running a parliamentary system. You run the elections, a majority forms in the legislature, and they pull a leader out of their own ranks. Whether you call him Monti, rowdyowl, or Milanović... it’s all the same deal. So, all this talk about Monti being an "unelected" leader is just falling for some really silly propaganda.

And by the way, where exactly is Monti supposed to go, since you're insisting he needs to leave Italy immediately? The guy is a born Italian! The fact that he’s a total workhorse for the technocrats is a completely different conversation...

rowdyowl said:Let Berlusconi come back, or let the Democrats or Republicans take over—I honestly don't care. But having Monti there, someone nobody actually voted for, just acting as a glorified babysitter for the big banks? I hope he gets out of Italy immediately. If he leaves, there’s a much better chance we won't see another one of these types popping up somewhere else elsewhere.

Well, it looks like Monti is actually going to be fighting for power against the centrist coalition (led by the Christian Democratic Party).
Some polls are already putting him at 10-15%, and apparently, even Vatican City is backing him, according to what I'm reading in the news.

Carol Newman2 said:Well, it looks like Monti is actually going to be fighting for power against the centrist coalition (led by the Christian Democratic Party).
Some polls are already putting him at 10-15%, and apparently, even Vatican City is backing him, according to what I'm reading in the news.

Even if he grabs 20% of the seats in Congress, who cares? That's nothing. 🤷

I’ve never been a fan of his approach. Honestly, I don't care if they hold three elections in a row—unless we're facing an actual war, I have zero interest in a technical government.

rowdyowl said:Even if he grabs 20% of the seats in Congress, who cares? That's nothing. 🤷

I’ve never been a fan of his approach. Honestly, I don't care if they hold three elections in a row—unless we're facing an actual war, I have zero interest in a technical government.

That 20% holds all the cards. Honestly, this crisis is worse than going to war. In a war, at least you have "work" to do.😁 High unemployment is a crime against humanity.

Jesse Fisher2 said:

Couldn't find a more recent thread on this

Anyone who missed the screening at Cannes probably could have found it easily yesterday.

It’s an intense, pretty jarring documentary. It uses a massive natural disaster—like that huge earthquake in L'Aquila—to really dig into the state of the nation and what "democracy" actually looked like in the Italian Republic under Berlusconi.
I guess it asks how much the government actually gives a damn about disaster victims, and what crisis management is supposed to look like in the first place.☕

The clowns over at the Democratic Party really should’ve watched this one......
With all due respect, lady...

Does anyone actually have the scoop on this "Five Star Movement" thing? (honestly, what a goofy name for a political party🙄).

From what I can gather browsing Wikipedia, they don't seem to have a solid platform to speak of; it all looks like pure populism aimed at taking swipes at the old-school political establishment. Does anyone know if they actually have a real plan or manifesto, or is this just another bandwagon movement riding on media hype?

I feel like this lack of a clear agenda is actually pretty scary, especially since it looks like they might actually become the second biggest player in the game...

Robert Clark4 said:Does anyone actually have the scoop on this "Five Star Movement" thing? (honestly, what a goofy name for a political party🙄).

From what I can gather browsing Wikipedia, they don't seem to have a solid platform to speak of; it all looks like pure populism aimed at taking swipes at the old-school political establishment. Does anyone know if they actually have a real plan or manifesto, or is this just another bandwagon movement riding on media hype?

I feel like this lack of a clear agenda is actually pretty scary, especially since it looks like they might actually become the second biggest player in the game...

All I know is that the whole movement is being led by a comedian.

Carol Newman2 said:All I know is that the whole movement is being led by a comedian.

Honestly, that one detail pretty much spells it all out for me.

This party is basically just built to be likable and play to the crowd. You’ve got populists led by a famous comic who are shouting for direct democracy, acting skeptical about the EU, and suddenly they're environmentalists too... It’s all just too perfect to be true, you know? It reminds me a bit of those old-school labor unions back in the day—they always seem to have a magic fix for every single problem, yet they spend half their time praying to God that they never actually end up in power.

I mean, I guess it might actually be better if Mario Monti took the lead for the opposition. At this rate, the Democrats are almost certainly going to cruise into office.

Robert Clark4 said:Honestly, that one detail pretty much spells it all out for me.

This party is basically just built to be likable and play to the crowd. You’ve got populists led by a famous comic who are shouting for direct democracy, acting skeptical about the EU, and suddenly they're environmentalists too... It’s all just too perfect to be true, you know? It reminds me a bit of those old-school labor unions back in the day—they always seem to have a magic fix for every single problem, yet they spend half their time praying to God that they never actually end up in power.

I mean, I guess it might actually be better if Mario Monti took the lead for the opposition. At this rate, the Democrats are almost certainly going to cruise into office.

Let Joe Biden shake things up, it won't hurt much...😉

Nancy Wood6 said:Where on earth did you—and honestly, a bunch of other people too—get this idea that nobody actually voted for Monti? Where is this nonsense coming from? Besides, did Americans even get to pick Milanović? I don't recall seeing his name on a single ballot for Prime Minister.

Look, Monti became PM in the exact same way Milanović did—which is basically how it works in almost every country running a parliamentary system. You run the elections, a majority forms in the legislature, and they pull a leader out of their own ranks. Whether you call him Monti, rowdyowl, or Milanović... it’s all the same deal. So, all this talk about Monti being an "unelected" leader is just falling for some really silly propaganda.

And by the way, where exactly is Monti supposed to go, since you're insisting he needs to leave Italy immediately? The guy is a born Italian! The fact that he’s a total workhorse for the technocrats is a completely different conversation...

😕 Since when did you think anyone actually elected Monti? Who would it have been? A head of state who wasn't even democratically elected himself? When you look at the resumes of both Monti and Napolitano, the conclusions are pretty obvious... That's why I agree with Kyle Reese that he needs to step down as soon as possible—not by flying off to the moon like you seem to imagine, but by stepping down from power and calling for new elections.

Look, please stop meddling in things you don't quite grasp 😳! Mario Monti was picked by the parliamentary majority—just like Zoran Milanović, just like Merkel, or even the newly appointed Japanese PM Abe... So, yeah, Monti was elected through a perfectly legal, democratic process... In none of these scenarios were citizens voting for them directly; instead, party lists (or specific candidates in districts) were chosen, and then those party caucuses or groups of elected officials selected the government led by Monti, Milanović, Merkel, or Abe...

It wasn't some Napolitano who chose Monti. Napolitano simply reached out to Monti to ask him to form a government, which—let's be real—he couldn't have done without the green light from the parliamentary majority!!! It was what you'd call a "technocratic" government, so what? The bottom line is that this administration, and Monti’s entire role, was accepted by the parliamentary majority that actually won the elections... If you want an American comparison for Monti taking charge, think about how Jadranka Kosor stepped in to lead after Sanders resigned... Was Jadranka directly elected to that spot? Nope. But did she take over that position democratically? Absolutely she did.

People here clearly have no clue what's going on at all.

P. S. Man, imagine how much better things would be if technocratic—or rather, meritocratic—structures actually ran the country instead of this partisan political machine... Personally, after seeing so many years of history pass by under our current setup, it's crystal clear to me that this whole system where everyone gets to circle whatever name they want on a ballot every four years isn't true democracy—it's just plain stupidity. Only a meritocratic system can actually produce success. Imagine if teachers and professors directly chose the Secretary of Education, or doctors and medical experts chose the Secretary of Health, or professional soldiers chose the Secretary of Defense, or police officers and security pros chose the Secretary of Homeland Security... and then once they were chosen, they could pick their own leader from within. Until we get to that point, until meritocracy actually functions, we're just spinning our wheels...

Carol Newman2 said:Use this thread to dump everything you think about Italy and the Italian people.

Berlusconi is making a comeback!

🙂
----------

Can someone who actually speaks Italian explain the whole Silvio Berlusconi phenomenon to me?
Who is even voting for this guy? I was reading somewhere that about 25% of Italians would vote for him again.
The man polarizes society not just in Italy, but globally. To some, he’s an untouchable king; to others, he’s just an old, immoral pervert.
What are the actual odds of Silvio becoming Prime Minister again?

It looks like Prime Minister Mario Monti will run as a centrist candidate in the upcoming elections.
http://www.mizonews.net/world/italy-...2013-election/

Here is how the polls are looking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_It...neral_election

PD at 36% - Democratic Left
PdL at 18% - Berlusconi
M5S at 13% - Five Star Movement (led by a comedian)🤷
Lega Nord is sitting around 4%

The Italians and their incredibly chaotic political scene definitely deserve their own dedicated thread.

The legend of Beppe Grillo🙏 🙏 🙏

Nancy Wood6 said:Look, please stop meddling in things you don't quite grasp 😳! Mario Monti was picked by the parliamentary majority—just like Zoran Milanović, just like Merkel, or even the newly appointed Japanese PM Abe... So, yeah, Monti was elected through a perfectly legal, democratic process... In none of these scenarios were citizens voting for them directly; instead, party lists (or specific candidates in districts) were chosen, and then those party caucuses or groups of elected officials selected the government led by Monti, Milanović, Merkel, or Abe...

It wasn't some Napolitano who chose Monti. Napolitano simply reached out to Monti to ask him to form a government, which—let's be real—he couldn't have done without the green light from the parliamentary majority!!! It was what you'd call a "technocratic" government, so what? The bottom line is that this administration, and Monti’s entire role, was accepted by the parliamentary majority that actually won the elections... If you want an American comparison for Monti taking charge, think about how Jadranka Kosor stepped in to lead after Sanders resigned... Was Jadranka directly elected to that spot? Nope. But did she take over that position democratically? Absolutely she did.

People here clearly have no clue what's going on at all.

P. S. Man, imagine how much better things would be if technocratic—or rather, meritocratic—structures actually ran the country instead of this partisan political machine... Personally, after seeing so many years of history pass by under our current setup, it's crystal clear to me that this whole system where everyone gets to circle whatever name they want on a ballot every four years isn't true democracy—it's just plain stupidity. Only a meritocratic system can actually produce success. Imagine if teachers and professors directly chose the Secretary of Education, or doctors and medical experts chose the Secretary of Health, or professional soldiers chose the Secretary of Defense, or police officers and security pros chose the Secretary of Homeland Security... and then once they were chosen, they could pick their own leader from within. Until we get to that point, until meritocracy actually functions, we're just spinning our wheels...

When a technical government pops up in a country like the United States, it might not be a huge deal, but when you see this happening in Italy—a massive, wealthy, globally significant power—it feels incredibly unsettling.
And here’s another thing: when Italians vote for specific parties, they already know who is going to lead the government. You don't just pick a leader after the fact; the administration is formed based on those choices.
Honestly, given the tone you're using, I have zero interest in continuing this debate with you, but just so we're clear, I feel exactly the same way about you.

Carol Newman2 said:That 20% holds all the cards. Honestly, this crisis is worse than going to war. In a war, at least you have "work" to do.😁 High unemployment is a crime against humanity.

But honestly, Monty didn't exactly impress me...

Like I’ve said before, people like that care way more about banking stability than the average person on the street. 🤷

I'm really not a fan of this whole technical government trend popping up across Europe. It's not like those setups magically fix unemployment rates anyway. 🤷