Can spirituality exist without God?

driftingraven122 said:So, how exactly do you plan on getting rid of that illusion? Isn't there some form of identification inherent in your attempt to fix it (assuming you're even trying)?

How am I supposed to get rid of something that isn't even real? Honestly, any "technique" designed to dismantle the ego is just mental gymnastics—it actually ends up reinforcing the whole illusion that the ego exists in the first place. It’s like trying to treat a disease when you aren't actually sick; if you go down that road, you're looking at a lifetime of treatment and guaranteed failure. It's the exact same story with the ego... it's pure schizophrenia. 😁

Edward Flores4 said:How am I supposed to get rid of something that isn't even real? Honestly, any "technique" designed to dismantle the ego is just mental gymnastics—it actually ends up reinforcing the whole illusion that the ego exists in the first place. It’s like trying to treat a disease when you aren't actually sick; if you go down that road, you're looking at a lifetime of treatment and guaranteed failure. It's the exact same story with the ego... it's pure schizophrenia. 😁

Wait, what do you mean it "doesn't exist"?

placidharbor7 said:Wait, what do you mean it "doesn't exist"?

It’s actually quite the opposite of how we define existence!

placidharbor7 said:Wait, what do you mean it "doesn't exist"?

That’s a fair question!🙂 If I get hit in the head during a dream and feel pain, that pain feels just as real to me as if it happened in my actual life. It's real because you don't really have a better way to distinguish what's real from what isn't, right?...

In other words, the ego is real—as long as you're identifying with it, it's nothing but pure reality to you.

Joseph Ramos11 said:That’s a fair question!🙂 If I get hit in the head during a dream and feel pain, that pain feels just as real to me as if it happened in my actual life. It's real because you don't really have a better way to distinguish what's real from what isn't, right?...

In other words, the ego is real—as long as you're identifying with it, it's nothing but pure reality to you.

And one for you too: who exactly is supposed to stop "identifying" themselves?

Edward Flores4 said:It’s actually quite the opposite of how we define existence!

So, I have to ask—what exactly is our reliable yardstick for measuring "existence" versus "non-existence"?

blue bird says:...Nagarjuna essentially demonstrates that everything relies on something else just to exist. Nothing exists in a vacuum. That’s what emptiness actually means—it's all about dependent origination (pratityasamutpada).

What Nagarjuna is really getting at is this:

placidharbor7 says:
The way we humans typically "perceive" things and events is
built entirely on comparisons and dualities. Once you strip away those distinctions—whether one vanishes, the other does, or they both disappear—all you're left with is an empty void in the middle of nowhere.

Everything else you mentioned (and I don't just mean in your specific example) is honestly just extra noise.

placidharbor7 said:And one for you too: who exactly is supposed to stop "identifying" themselves?

If you’re going by that logic, then "the one who started identifying" in the first place...😂

And if I'm feeling too lazy for elementary school math: No clue!🙂

My question is this: "Does God exist, or does anything else exist, in the absence of humanity?"

placidharbor7 said:So, I have to ask—what exactly is our reliable yardstick for measuring "existence" versus "non-existence"?

Look, since you're out here claiming the ego actually exists, the burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders. We can't see the ego directly—you know, through basic sight—and we certainly can't detect it indirectly via any modern tech, like an MRI, a CT scan, or even an X-ray. So, if you're arguing it doesn't exist, you don't really need to provide evidence. But the moment you step up and claim the ego *is* a real thing, then it’s your job to solve the whole dilemma of how we define a "reliable metric" for existence versus non-existence.

And since you're clearly a bit of an expert on these matters... I'm sure you'll have no trouble figuring that out.

By the way—what is this "ego" supposed to be, anyway?

Edward Flores4 said:How am I supposed to get rid of something that isn't even real? Honestly, any "technique" designed to dismantle the ego is just mental gymnastics—it actually ends up reinforcing the whole illusion that the ego exists in the first place. It’s like trying to treat a disease when you aren't actually sick; if you go down that road, you're looking at a lifetime of treatment and guaranteed failure. It's the exact same story with the ego... it's pure schizophrenia. 😁

I wasn't talking about resolving the ego—more like dismantling the illusion of its existence, I guess.

Edward Flores4 said:Look, since you're out here claiming the ego actually exists, the burden of proof is squarely on your shoulders. We can't see the ego directly—you know, through basic sight—and we certainly can't detect it indirectly via any modern tech, like an MRI, a CT scan, or even an X-ray. So, if you're arguing it doesn't exist, you don't really need to provide evidence. But the moment you step up and claim the ego *is* a real thing, then it’s your job to solve the whole dilemma of how we define a "reliable metric" for existence versus non-existence.

And since you're clearly a bit of an expert on these matters... I'm sure you'll have no trouble figuring that out.

By the way—what is this "ego" supposed to be, anyway?

It's everything you think you are and everything you use to define yourself. For example, your parents gave you a first name, you inherited a last name, you finished school to become an auto mechanic, and so on. All those things are parts of your ego, and you view reality through the lens of those self-definitions. Let’s say your name is Ivan Ivić and you hear people talking about how Ivan Ivić is lazy and useless. You’d feel hurt because Ivan Ivić is your identity; you’re deeply connected to that name on a subconscious level. Now, if your parents had named you William Shakespeare instead, and you heard people saying Ivan Ivić was lazy and useless, it wouldn't bother you one bit. In that case, you wouldn't subconsciously identify with that name, so an "attack" on that persona wouldn't feel like an attack on yourself. It’s the same with all the other labels and identities we pick up over time—whether they stick or just pass through—they are components of the ego that we identify with more or less...
The more you unconsciously identify with these pieces, the more of a slave you become, making you much easier to manipulate. For instance, if someone identifies strongly as a devout Catholic or a true American, corrupt politicians can easily pull their strings and send them off to fight a war in the name of faith (even in Iraq, who would've thought 🙂) just to serve their own financial interests. You see examples like that every single day...

God created "spirituality," so nothing exists without Him—including spirituality itself. 😳

driftingraven122 said:I wasn't talking about resolving the ego—more like dismantling the illusion of its existence, I guess.

When I was a kid, I used to think a rainbow was this physical, tangible thing—something you could actually touch that just happened to hang out between the rain and the sun. I was genuinely convinced that pilots could see them up close, and I used to wonder if they had to fly around them, or if a plane would just smash right through one. Eventually, I learned that a rainbow is really just light refracting through raindrops—there isn't some giant arc sitting "out there" in the sky... it exists entirely within my own perception. Even now, I still see rainbows, but knowing they aren't "real" doesn't change anything for me, much like it wouldn't cause any trouble for a pilot.

If pilots were taught differently, I bet a huge number of them would rather steer clear than try to test if they can fly through one. It’s funny—when you teach people they have an ego, most aren't exactly eager to double-check if that claim is even true... unfortunately. See, a rainbow is at least an optical illusion—you can point to why it happens—but the ego? That's an illusion of conviction. That makes the whole phenomenon even more fascinating to me; almost nobody tries to avoid rainbows, yet most people experience their own ego as something incredibly "solid" and beyond question. 🤷

Joseph Ramos11 said:It's everything you think you are and everything you use to define yourself. For example, your parents gave you a first name, you inherited a last name, you finished school to become an auto mechanic, and so on. All those things are parts of your ego, and you view reality through the lens of those self-definitions. Let’s say your name is Ivan Ivić and you hear people talking about how Ivan Ivić is lazy and useless. You’d feel hurt because Ivan Ivić is your identity; you’re deeply connected to that name on a subconscious level. Now, if your parents had named you William Shakespeare instead, and you heard people saying Ivan Ivić was lazy and useless, it wouldn't bother you one bit. In that case, you wouldn't subconsciously identify with that name, so an "attack" on that persona wouldn't feel like an attack on yourself. It’s the same with all the other labels and identities we pick up over time—whether they stick or just pass through—they are components of the ego that we identify with more or less...
The more you unconsciously identify with these pieces, the more of a slave you become, making you much easier to manipulate. For instance, if someone identifies strongly as a devout Catholic or a true American, corrupt politicians can easily pull their strings and send them off to fight a war in the name of faith (even in Iraq, who would've thought 🙂) just to serve their own financial interests. You see examples like that every single day...

So, if I'm following you, you're saying the ego is essentially just a hollow concept with no actual "objective" footing in reality? Like, in practical terms, it's just an arbitrary way we choose to frame ourselves and how we interact with everything else?

Sophia Murphy37 said:God created "spirituality," so nothing exists without Him—including spirituality itself. 😳

...and then the squirrel wrapped up the chocolate bar 🤣

Edward Flores4 said:So, if I'm following you, you're saying the ego is essentially just a hollow concept with no actual "objective" footing in reality? Like, in practical terms, it's just an arbitrary way we choose to frame ourselves and how we interact with everything else?

Not at all. The ego is as real and substantial as you let yourself believe it is. Think about it... Are you identified with your own name? Of course you are. Are you tied to your heritage, your traditions, or your customs? Absolutely. It might not always feel like a conscious thought, but on an emotional and subconscious level, it’s incredibly deep... deeper than you realize. When you sit down and dissect the different parts of the ego, it can start to feel like a total illusion, almost like a trick of the mind. But when you're just living life—driving to work, handling business, or caught up in your daily routine—that ego is very much there. It defines you, it drives your actions, and it runs your life. That makes it real...

Joseph Ramos11 said:Not at all. The ego is as real and substantial as you let yourself believe it is. Think about it... Are you identified with your own name? Of course you are. Are you tied to your heritage, your traditions, or your customs? Absolutely. It might not always feel like a conscious thought, but on an emotional and subconscious level, it’s incredibly deep... deeper than you realize. When you sit down and dissect the different parts of the ego, it can start to feel like a total illusion, almost like a trick of the mind. But when you're just living life—driving to work, handling business, or caught up in your daily routine—that ego is very much there. It defines you, it drives your actions, and it runs your life. That makes it real...

By that logic, wouldn't the same apply to someone dealing with schizophrenia and their hallucinations? They define those people, they dictate how they act and live their lives, so does that make them real too?

Edward Flores4 said:By that logic, wouldn't the same apply to someone dealing with schizophrenia and their hallucinations? They define those people, they dictate how they act and live their lives, so does that make them real too?

Do you really think us "normal" folks are all that different from someone dealing with schizophrenia? Just take a look around... all these wars, the mindless consumerism, senseless violence, drunk drivers, or people tearing through residential neighborhoods on motorcycles at eighty miles an hour...

Does our society actually seem normal to you?

😂

Joseph Ramos11 said:Not at all. The ego is as real and substantial as you let yourself believe it is. Think about it... Are you identified with your own name? Of course you are. Are you tied to your heritage, your traditions, or your customs? Absolutely. It might not always feel like a conscious thought, but on an emotional and subconscious level, it’s incredibly deep... deeper than you realize. When you sit down and dissect the different parts of the ego, it can start to feel like a total illusion, almost like a trick of the mind. But when you're just living life—driving to work, handling business, or caught up in your daily routine—that ego is very much there. It defines you, it drives your actions, and it runs your life. That makes it real...

Honestly, I feel just as much of an identity crisis as my old membership card from the local Blockbuster used to give me!

Joseph Ramos11 said:Not at all. The ego is as real and substantial as you let yourself believe it is. Think about it... Are you identified with your own name? Of course you are. Are you tied to your heritage, your traditions, or your customs? Absolutely. It might not always feel like a conscious thought, but on an emotional and subconscious level, it’s incredibly deep... deeper than you realize. When you sit down and dissect the different parts of the ego, it can start to feel like a total illusion, almost like a trick of the mind. But when you're just living life—driving to work, handling business, or caught up in your daily routine—that ego is very much there. It defines you, it drives your actions, and it runs your life. That makes it real...

I suppose it all comes down to how you were raised—you know, that foundational stuff—but it also really depends on how an individual actually perceives their heritage, those old traditions, and the rituals that make up a culture. It’s about whether or not you actually feel like a meaningful part of that whole manufactured "collective" identity. In my case? Not really... I've never felt even the slightest bit of a connection to that kind of thing.

Joseph Ramos11 said:Not at all. The ego is as real and substantial as you let yourself believe it is. Think about it... Are you identified with your own name? Of course you are. Are you tied to your heritage, your traditions, or your customs? Absolutely. It might not always feel like a conscious thought, but on an emotional and subconscious level, it’s incredibly deep... deeper than you realize. When you sit down and dissect the different parts of the ego, it can start to feel like a total illusion, almost like a trick of the mind. But when you're just living life—driving to work, handling business, or caught up in your daily routine—that ego is very much there. It defines you, it drives your actions, and it runs your life. That makes it real...

Look, for what you’re saying to actually hold any water, you’d need some kind of direct line into my subconscious—and let's be honest, you don't have that. You're also missing a pretty vital distinction here: the subconscious isn't necessarily the same thing as the unconscious. Think of consciousness like a cube sitting inside a sphere... essentially, your conscious mind acts as this "container" that tries to hold "N" number of cubic pieces of content pulled from the subconscious. Now, sure, that container probably won't ever be able to swallow every single subconscious element all at once—it just isn't built for that kind of volume—but any individual piece of the subconscious can definitely make its way up to the surface if you're actually looking for it.

See, I’m not just sitting here guessing... I actually know. 😉

Joseph Ramos11 said:Not at all. The ego is as real and substantial as you let yourself believe it is. Think about it... Are you identified with your own name? Of course you are. Are you tied to your heritage, your traditions, or your customs? Absolutely. It might not always feel like a conscious thought, but on an emotional and subconscious level, it’s incredibly deep... deeper than you realize. When you sit down and dissect the different parts of the ego, it can start to feel like a total illusion, almost like a trick of the mind. But when you're just living life—driving to work, handling business, or caught up in your daily routine—that ego is very much there. It defines you, it drives your actions, and it runs your life. That makes it real...

Why do you feel like you have to measure everything by your own yardstick? It’s easy to assume everyone operates exactly like we do, but people develop different automatic responses—it's just how they're wired. Maybe some folks actually put in the work to "rework" their old habits specifically so those patterns wouldn't be so rigid or overwhelming for them. Everything sitting inside my head is essentially a product of my own mind... which means, logically, it's just as subject to change as anything else—provided I actually want to change it. Do you really think once an automatic habit is formed, it's set in stone forever? I don't think so.