The Guilt Trip

Was just reading.
Every time we get attached to someone?
Well, we’re constantly in some kind of relationship, whether it's obvious or not.
Fear of loss? Please, no way.
In my opinion, freedom isn't actually freedom if the cost is The Unbearable Lightness of Being.
Actually, let me rephrase: if the price is unbearable, then what's the point? Why bother enjoying its benefits?

So we end up circling back to guilt, right?
When the price tag gets that high, you start feeling guilty toward yourself... or toward someone else.
But that’s not quite it.

You know what true freedom feels like? Right now. It's the fact that I logged back on just to give you an answer.
And I don't feel guilty about it. Not by my own standards, anyway. A while ago, I wouldn't have even thought to mention it. 🙂

Sandra Parker3 said:Just one more thing:

People don't just aim for some "middle ground."

Free from what, exactly?
If you're thinking about getting into a relationship, you don't necessarily have to be "free" to do that.

And even then, I don't think anyone is looking to "bind" themselves or "submit" in the way you're describing.

Also, yeah, I agree that morality is an internal compass, not something forced on us from the outside. But isn't having that internal code enough to make someone "unfree"?

And if the cost of staying true to yourself is too high... then that's not really freedom, Samuel Miller21.
The concept of "cost" is also an internal judgment. It's about being able to look yourself in the mirror. 🙂

@fr., I'm actually heading to bed now; I'll go back and read through this rambling mess once I'm sober................. 🙂

If morality is truly an internal category and isn't being shoved down our throats by someone else, then why on earth would it make us unfree? 😕
Are you talking about those moments where we actually want to be immoral, yet we end up self-restricting our own ability to act amorally? Or is it something else altogether...?

Either way, my take is that guilt only kicks in when we act in direct opposition to how we feel we ought to behave. And we really should strive to act according to that inner compass... because honestly, that seems like our best shot at actually being free... which, if you ask me, just means finally being at peace with ourselves.

So "amoral."

You nailed it, rustymaker5 (that second part of your post) 🙂

(ugh, I'm so tired)

Sandra Parker3 said:Was just reading.
Every time we get attached to someone?
Well, we’re constantly in some kind of relationship, whether it's obvious or not.
Fear of loss? Please, no way.
In my opinion, freedom isn't actually freedom if the cost is The Unbearable Lightness of Being.
Actually, let me rephrase: if the price is unbearable, then what's the point? Why bother enjoying its benefits?

So we end up circling back to guilt, right?
When the price tag gets that high, you start feeling guilty toward yourself... or toward someone else.
But that’s not quite it.

You know what true freedom feels like? Right now. It's the fact that I logged back on just to give you an answer.
And I don't feel guilty about it. Not by my own standards, anyway. A while ago, I wouldn't have even thought to mention it. 🙂

That is precisely the point. Humans are creatures designed for attachment, yet the moment we attach ourselves to something, we surrender a portion of our autonomy. Consider a mother: she is significantly less free in her daily actions than a woman without children, yet that mother possesses a much richer emotional life—even if it comes at the expense of certain freedoms.
A mother has far less time to focus solely on herself; she is constrained by the constant worry for her child, and she faces the weight of guilt whenever she steps out for a moment and leaves them with a nanny or a sitter.

Freedom feels wonderful when one is being suppressed—when one is under the thumb of overbearing parents, an obsessive partner, a demanding spouse, a grueling job, or a stifling environment. In those moments, freedom is like oxygen; without it, we would suffocate.

On the other hand, a person who is entirely free is someone who depends on no one emotionally—someone whom no one can trigger with feelings of guilt or fear. In other words, they are someone completely detached from the rest of humanity.
And such a level of freedom is actually unbearable for a human being; it is the precipice where one might reach for a gun and end it all. (It is quite similar to the first scenario, where one is utterly suffocated.)

Humanity is always oscillating between these two extremes: total freedom and the complete absence of it.
Both the total lack of freedom and absolute, unattached freedom are intolerable for a person who simultaneously craves individuality (following their own inner impulses) and feels a fundamental need to connect with others.

Kyle Nelson2 said:So... I’m sitting here having coffee with this girl from the forum, just talking through life stuff, and this one "theory" kind of popped into my head.

I guess I wonder... how much are we, as a society—as a civilization (though maybe this only applies to Abrahamic religions)—basically hardwired to act out of guilt? Like, is every sense of freedom we feel actually just us releasing ourselves from that guilt, or maybe forcing it onto someone else?

Let's look at it like this...
Religion...
From the time we're kids, we're taught that Adam messed up and now we're all somehow responsible for it. So, Bog is great and full of love, sure, but he leaves this seed of self-destruction inside us... we're the ones at fault, and we have to make amends for it.

And then there's upbringing. We're usually raised to be "good," and if we act morally or positively, we get rewarded with attention, approval, a hug, whatever. It's basically conditional behavior. It's not that we're inherently guilty, but we feel guilty if we don't act the way we're supposed to...

How much does guilt hang over our heads in everyday relationships, like some constant Sword of Damocles? We won't treat someone poorly because we have this mental click that it's wrong, and our conscience starts eating us alive.
Or that feeling of guilt when we aren't living up to the perfect image we try so hard to project to the world.

I’ve run into these scenarios myself, and honestly, I've even taken advantage of them before.

For example:

1) A while back, I was in this quasi-relationship with a girl. Even though my feelings were stronger and I was being totally selfless—which, let's face it, I always am—she wasn't reciprocating. Eventually, she did something shitty, and I just turned around and walked away. It felt easier for me because, in my mind, she was labeled as "bad" (and it's easy to walk away from someone you've labeled bad), while she was left haunted by this massive sense of guilt because of her own vanity and the fact that I refused to talk to her.
Then, months later, I said one single thing to her that lifted that guilt away... and she went right back to her old self. Just like I thought. She didn't learn a damn thing.
The pain didn't serve any purpose for growth, and my—unfortunately accurate—hunch that she'd show her true colors played out perfectly.

2) I was talking to a friend who cut ties with her parents because they did something wrong—they were immoral or dishonest for a moment.
She felt this huge weight lift off her shoulders and could finally walk away with a clear conscience.

But it makes me wonder: how much of that was really *her*, and how much was her just acting as an object rather than a subject? How much was her ego pulling the strings and giving her permission to leave?

Personally, I think it is...

But anyway, she's just an example of those mental clicks we all carry around.
That urge to avoid feeling guilty instead of just acting how we actually want to act.

Because, frankly, we just want to...

Wasn't Crawley right when he said the only Bog a person needs is themselves?
I have a feeling that...

Not that I'm saying I'm an egoist... more like, I'm just being who I am.
Not doing good just to boost my reputation in someone else's eyes, but just because I want to do good... or bad... or whatever.

Well... he was 👍

And honestly, I think guilt is just an unnecessary weight to carry.

Everyone born into this Christian-rooted "civilization" is guilty by default. You’re guilty just because you exist. The very foundation of your being is built on guilt, which is how they turn people into passive slaves. It’s how they punish us—by making our existence itself a crime.

Jamie Wilson3 said:Everyone born into this Christian-rooted "civilization" is guilty by default. You’re guilty just because you exist. The very foundation of your being is built on guilt, which is how they turn people into passive slaves. It’s how they punish us—by making our existence itself a crime.

Honestly, if I could just strip away the whole baptism sacrament and be done with it, I totally would.

quietpilot87 said:Honestly, if I could just strip away the whole baptism sacrament and be done with it, I totally would.

Look, someone splashing some holy water on your head doesn't mean anything if you decide it doesn't.
And trying to scrap the whole thing? That's just forcing your own version of "truth" on everyone else. You're basically doing exactly what they do...

Samuel Miller21 said:This is a fascinating topic, deeply intertwined with our very definition of freedom. After all, guilt serves as one of those fundamental mechanisms that constrains our liberty.

I suspect many people overlook a vital truth: human beings were never actually designed for absolute, unbridled freedom..
It brings to mind a poignant line from poetry: "Will freedom ever learn how to sing, in the way that the enslaved once sang of it?"

Whether we look at organized religion, conservative political frameworks, or even the institution of marriage—these are all ways in which we voluntarily surrender a portion of our autonomy.
A believer submits to Bog, a citizen commits to a political ideology, a spouse yields to their partner... and there is a certain inherent beauty in that sacrifice, a sense of purpose that can only be forged through the weight of lived experience.

When we exist in total freedom, we are light, airy, and unburdened... yet, in that lightness, we lose our roots, our purpose, and our significance.
Guilt, fear, and those other heavy emotions may be difficult, but they are essential and unavoidable for anyone who dares to truly feel and to remain connected to others.

Yeah, sure. Freedom is just about making choices, but that leaves you hanging... sometimes you choose something just to please everyone else and end up miserable because you're starving for something real, and other times it's the exact opposite. It all comes down to how much we actually care about the weight of those choices.

Jonathan Mitchell said:Look, someone splashing some holy water on your head doesn't mean anything if you decide it doesn't.
And trying to scrap the whole thing? That's just forcing your own version of "truth" on everyone else. You're basically doing exactly what they do...

So what you're saying is, if I hold you against your will like some kind of slave, and you try to break free, you'd be just as much of a villain as I am...

So, this discussion kind of spiraled into some weird tangents. 😵
I’m gonna break this down in plain English—layman style—before that sharp-tongued critic kicks me off this PDF. 😬
Personal freedom is my top priority.
But when I talk about freedom, I mean the freedom to set my own rules and decide my own boundaries.
Basically, if someone tries to dictate how I live or pressure me into something by using fear tactics—claiming "you have to do this or else X will happen"—I’m just not interested. Of course, I play by the rules of the land because I’m a civilized person living in a society, not some outlaw. I respect legitimacy.
Naturally, things have to work that way.
Don't get me wrong, I care what people think, but it’s definitely not the most important thing to me.
That’s actually what 🙄 was trying to get across in the original post.
A lot of the paths we take in life—our actions, our thoughts, our general direction—are dictated by deep-seated guilt or the fear of consequences from things we've done or others have done.
It spans everything from family and friends to your spouse or partner.
The problem is, we waste way too much time overthinking how we appear to others and constantly questioning whether we even have the permission to be ourselves...

Samuel Miller21 said:That is precisely the point. Humans are creatures designed for attachment, yet the moment we attach ourselves to something, we surrender a portion of our autonomy. Consider a mother: she is significantly less free in her daily actions than a woman without children, yet that mother possesses a much richer emotional life—even if it comes at the expense of certain freedoms.
A mother has far less time to focus solely on herself; she is constrained by the constant worry for her child, and she faces the weight of guilt whenever she steps out for a moment and leaves them with a nanny or a sitter.

Freedom feels wonderful when one is being suppressed—when one is under the thumb of overbearing parents, an obsessive partner, a demanding spouse, a grueling job, or a stifling environment. In those moments, freedom is like oxygen; without it, we would suffocate.

On the other hand, a person who is entirely free is someone who depends on no one emotionally—someone whom no one can trigger with feelings of guilt or fear. In other words, they are someone completely detached from the rest of humanity.
And such a level of freedom is actually unbearable for a human being; it is the precipice where one might reach for a gun and end it all. (It is quite similar to the first scenario, where one is utterly suffocated.)

Humanity is always oscillating between these two extremes: total freedom and the complete absence of it.
Both the total lack of freedom and absolute, unattached freedom are intolerable for a person who simultaneously craves individuality (following their own inner impulses) and feels a fundamental need to connect with others.

Look, I completely disagree with you here.
Being a mom doesn't automatically make you less free than someone who isn't.
At the end of the day, everyone sets their own boundaries—or lives by the ones already set for them.

A woman with a child who is actually free in her soul might deal with way less fear and guilt than someone else who’s totally shackled by social expectations and rigid norms.

I don't get why you think leaving a kid with a sitter or anyone else should cause guilt at all. 😕
And honestly, what kind of guilt develops when you stay home all the time just to avoid feeling bad about handing them off to someone else?
It's just guilt turned inward or projected onto others...
I really don't follow your logic....

Oh right, I almost forgot. We aren't seeing eye to eye on this one either.
The idea that having a kid leads to a "richer emotional life" 😕
Why would that be? And apparently, according to you, at the cost of your freedom too....
I think the balance between freedom and emotional depth works a little differently than that.... 🙂

Jamie Wilson3 said:So what you're saying is, if I hold you against your will like some kind of slave, and you try to break free, you'd be just as much of a villain as I am...

And who mentioned anything about being a villain, you sweet summer child!?
this could actually spiral into...
but if you're aiming for that whole era of American slavery, then my answer is yes—I'd be a villain. Think about why that is.

And while we're on the subject of theft, let's get real for a second.
everyone is stealing something.

I suppose I was being a bit too intense there... trying to explain things through the lens of absolute freedom isn't always the most effective approach...🤷
Ultimately, my point was simply that guilt isn't necessarily the monster people make it out to be.
I personally struggled quite a bit with an overwhelming sense of guilt in the past, but now that I’ve managed to let much of it go, I realize that those feelings actually served a purpose in my life. Guilt acted as a motivator for so many things; it provided a sense of direction whenever I felt like I was about to veer off course for the fifteenth time.

Fear? There’s a flip side to everything, right?
The thing is, when we set our own moral standards, we basically leave ourselves plenty of room to feel guilty about it too. 😉
Autocorrect?
Balance?

It’s just a fact of life that every single one of us carries both light and dark sides within us... you can't really have one without the other, because if you did, you wouldn't even be able to define who you are in the first place.
The whole thing really boils down to balance. That tiny little fraction that tips the scales toward one side or the other... well, that comes down entirely to our own choices, our conscience, our morals, and honestly, just how self-aware we actually are about our true nature.
The second you start feeling that pang of guilt, it means that—at least for a fleeting moment—we made the wrong call, or at the very least, we realize there was a better path we could have taken instead.
What matters most is making sure we don't let outside forces dictate how we feel or try to force any kind of guilt upon us... as long as it's coming from within ourselves, we can actually learn to handle it.

I suppose I’ve only ever felt a real sense of guilt when a woman gave me a chance, and I just... didn't show up for her. That feels like my biggest mistake, I guess.

rustymaker5 said:It’s just a fact of life that every single one of us carries both light and dark sides within us... you can't really have one without the other, because if you did, you wouldn't even be able to define who you are in the first place.
The whole thing really boils down to balance. That tiny little fraction that tips the scales toward one side or the other... well, that comes down entirely to our own choices, our conscience, our morals, and honestly, just how self-aware we actually are about our true nature.
The second you start feeling that pang of guilt, it means that—at least for a fleeting moment—we made the wrong call, or at the very least, we realize there was a better path we could have taken instead.
What matters most is making sure we don't let outside forces dictate how we feel or try to force any kind of guilt upon us... as long as it's coming from within ourselves, we can actually learn to handle it.

I wouldn't say it's easier to deal with our own guilt... honestly, it's just one big vicious cycle. And that "internal" guilt is built up because we're social creatures and all that...
But I couldn't care less what my neighbor down the street thinks. What would actually kill me is if someone I actually love and respect had something to say about it. For myself? That's the hardest part to forgive...

rustymaker5 said:It’s just a fact of life that every single one of us carries both light and dark sides within us... you can't really have one without the other, because if you did, you wouldn't even be able to define who you are in the first place.
The whole thing really boils down to balance. That tiny little fraction that tips the scales toward one side or the other... well, that comes down entirely to our own choices, our conscience, our morals, and honestly, just how self-aware we actually are about our true nature.
The second you start feeling that pang of guilt, it means that—at least for a fleeting moment—we made the wrong call, or at the very least, we realize there was a better path we could have taken instead.
What matters most is making sure we don't let outside forces dictate how we feel or try to force any kind of guilt upon us... as long as it's coming from within ourselves, we can actually learn to handle it.

Maybe we actually made the right choice, but we just haven't figured out how to live with it yet. Is that where that feeling comes from?
We can work through it and push past it 🙂

But regardless, we made our choice, whether driven by our gut or someone else's pressure.

Jonathan Mitchell said:I wouldn't say it's easier to deal with our own guilt... honestly, it's just one big vicious cycle. And that "internal" guilt is built up because we're social creatures and all that...
But I couldn't care less what my neighbor down the street thinks. What would actually kill me is if someone I actually love and respect had something to say about it. For myself? That's the hardest part to forgive...

A "vicious cycle" makes it sound like change is impossible. And like finding peace is out of reach.

Freedom is just a state of mind—a deep, private thing happening inside your own conscience.

It’s that inner voice accusing you and defending you behind all those walls we build up.