Is there anything beyond human perception?

Jessica Gonzalez7 MemberOP

11 messages
joined Mar 2005

#1 · Nov 15, 2007

The question is straightforward: is there anything that exists beyond our ability to perceive it?

Let’s look at it this way. Suppose someone is deaf, and a sound passes through the room. Does that sound actually exist if they cannot perceive it?
When I use the term "cannot perceive," I am referring to every possible avenue of perception. By definition, this means there isn't even a chance of accidentally sensing the vibration of that sound.

Now, consider the perspective of that individual. Does the sound you heard exist within their reality?
It does not. However, once you inform them that a sound occurred, they may attempt to imagine it in various ways, which serves to supplement their own reality. Without your input—that is, without the contribution from someone who did perceive the event—this deaf person would never even have the capacity to attempt to comprehend something like a sound.

Moving forward. Take an average person, place them in a room, and play a sound at a frequency that is entirely inaudible to the human ear. If asked what happened, they will say nothing. Hearing is merely one of many sensory possibilities, but let us assume this person had no other means of perceiving that sound.

The question remains:

If you were that person, does that sound exist at that exact moment while you are incapable of perceiving it?

placidranger Regular

339 messages
joined Sep 2004

#2 · Nov 15, 2007

If we aren't aware of it, it doesn't exist. Period.

placidranger Regular

339 messages
joined Sep 2004

#3 · Nov 15, 2007

I don't think a simple yes or no actually cuts it here.
For instance—I have no idea if God exists. I can't perceive such a thing, so answering the question feels impossible.

Jessica Gonzalez7 MemberOP

11 messages
joined Mar 2005

#4 · Nov 15, 2007

Whether we call them higher states of consciousness or expanded realities, it remains a fact that they allow for the comprehension of paradoxes that currently elude us—or rather, paradoxes that we lack the cognitive capacity to even perceive.

I find it quite compelling to draw comparisons between humans and animals. For instance, when an animal travels from one place to another, do you honestly believe it possesses any concept of being in America or Uzbekistan? It is incapable of grasping our supposed "expanded reality." To such a creature, the paradoxes we struggle to understand are just as inscrutable as they are to us; from the perspective of a higher consciousness with an expanded reality, our deepest questions are easily explained.

rustymaker5 Regular

352 messages
joined Mar 2008

#5 · Nov 15, 2007

Jessica Gonzalez7 said:Whether we call them higher states of consciousness or expanded realities, it remains a fact that they allow for the comprehension of paradoxes that currently elude us—or rather, paradoxes that we lack the cognitive capacity to even perceive.

I find it quite compelling to draw comparisons between humans and animals. For instance, when an animal travels from one place to another, do you honestly believe it possesses any concept of being in America or Uzbekistan? It is incapable of grasping our supposed "expanded reality." To such a creature, the paradoxes we struggle to understand are just as inscrutable as they are to us; from the perspective of a higher consciousness with an expanded reality, our deepest questions are easily explained.

They haven't a clue. Which basically means that America or Uzbekistan don't even exist to them.
It’s the same way an animal senses danger—say, an earthquake or a tidal wave—and just bolts, while we stay put and end up getting hit. The danger was always there, regardless of whether we were aware of it or not, right up until the moment it was too late.

So, everything exists, whether someone perceives it or not... it's just a different matter when the person who isn't perceiving it has no idea what's actually happening.

Kevin Flores87 Newcomer

4 messages
joined Nov 2007

#6 · Nov 15, 2007

If we link the perception of something unknown to an illusion, where that illusion aligns perfectly with reality at the exact moment it occurs (like a deaf person experiencing the concept of sound), then for that individual, the sound truly exists.

So, sound exists for a deaf person if there is even a mere illusion of it within them. It doesn't matter how they define it or how much experience they have. The realization that "yes, that was actually a sound" might only hit them later, during social interaction with a hearing person who possesses the awareness to define the event for them.

In that scenario, the deaf person experiences a realization where the moment of perceiving the sound and the moment of the illusion overlap—which isn't strictly necessary for the sound's existence, but it is vital for the actual comprehension of it.

Essentially, I believe sound exists if the mental state of a deaf person aligns with the sound itself at the moment it happens. Even if they can't prove it, simply because they didn't consciously perceive the alignment happening.

placidranger Regular

339 messages
joined Sep 2004

#7 · Nov 16, 2007

Jessica Gonzalez7;11293390 said:Through higher consciousness or expanded realities, it might be possible to grasp the paradoxes we can't wrap our heads around now—or perhaps we simply lack the cognitive capacity to perceive them. It all leads back to the same point.

I don't see what's paradoxical about this topic.
What's even the point of the opening question?
I find it interesting to compare humans to animals sometimes. For instance, when an animal travels somewhere, do you think it realizes it's in the US or Uzbekistan? It can't comprehend our version of an "expanded reality"—to them, our paradoxes are just like ours: things they can't understand. To a higher consciousness with an expanded reality, our deepest questions would be easy to explain.

So, you believe multiple layers of consciousness exist, and you're basing that theory on the existence of lower ones?

Jessica Gonzalez7 MemberOP

11 messages
joined Mar 2005

#8 · Nov 16, 2007

Kevin Flores87 said:If we link the perception of something unknown to an illusion, where that illusion aligns perfectly with reality at the exact moment it occurs (like a deaf person experiencing the concept of sound), then for that individual, the sound truly exists.

So, sound exists for a deaf person if there is even a mere illusion of it within them. It doesn't matter how they define it or how much experience they have. The realization that "yes, that was actually a sound" might only hit them later, during social interaction with a hearing person who possesses the awareness to define the event for them.

In that scenario, the deaf person experiences a realization where the moment of perceiving the sound and the moment of the illusion overlap—which isn't strictly necessary for the sound's existence, but it is vital for the actual comprehension of it.

Essentially, I believe sound exists if the mental state of a deaf person aligns with the sound itself at the moment it happens. Even if they can't prove it, simply because they didn't consciously perceive the alignment happening.

Yes, but the question was phrased differently. 🙂

Consider an average person placed in a room where a sound is played at a frequency far beyond the range of human hearing. If asked what happened, they would say nothing. Hearing is merely one of many sensory possibilities, but let us assume this person had no other way to sense that sound.

The question remains:

If you were that person, does that sound exist, right now, in this very moment while you are incapable of perceiving it?

This implies that perception cannot be used as information provided by someone else, because, in that specific moment, that information simply did not exist.

Jessica Gonzalez7 MemberOP

11 messages
joined Mar 2005

#9 · Nov 16, 2007

placidranger said:

Isn't that just basic logic?
While it's true that not everything can be laid out in a perfectly linear, logical sequence—given the numerous paradoxes we encounter—it is entirely reasonable to assume there are consciousnesses for whom reality is simply broader and more deeply understood than it is for us.

We shouldn't limit the definition of consciousness strictly to human awareness. Animals, plants, and everything surrounding us possesses its own mode of existence, which is to say, its own form of consciousness. Every entity acts according to the information available to it within its specific parameters. Water boils when heated. A human dies when subjected to extreme heat. Everything operates with the same level of consciousness relative to its own inherent capabilities.

lonesurfer6 Newcomer

2 messages
joined May 2008

#10 · Nov 16, 2007

Jessica Gonzalez7 said:The question is straightforward: is there anything that exists beyond our ability to perceive it?

Let’s look at it this way. Suppose someone is deaf, and a sound passes through the room. Does that sound actually exist if they cannot perceive it?
When I use the term "cannot perceive," I am referring to every possible avenue of perception. By definition, this means there isn't even a chance of accidentally sensing the vibration of that sound.

Now, consider the perspective of that individual. Does the sound you heard exist within their reality?
It does not. However, once you inform them that a sound occurred, they may attempt to imagine it in various ways, which serves to supplement their own reality. Without your input—that is, without the contribution from someone who did perceive the event—this deaf person would never even have the capacity to attempt to comprehend something like a sound.

Moving forward. Take an average person, place them in a room, and play a sound at a frequency that is entirely inaudible to the human ear. If asked what happened, they will say nothing. Hearing is merely one of many sensory possibilities, but let us assume this person had no other means of perceiving that sound.

The question remains:

If you were that person, does that sound exist at that exact moment while you are incapable of perceiving it?

"You aren't in the cosmos; the cosmos is in you." Nothing exists outside of our own minds, I suppose.

placidranger Regular

339 messages
joined Sep 2004

#11 · Nov 16, 2007

Jessica Gonzalez7 said:

Isn't that just basic logic?
While it's true that not everything can be laid out in a perfectly linear, logical sequence—given the numerous paradoxes we encounter—it is entirely reasonable to assume there are consciousnesses for whom reality is simply broader and more deeply understood than it is for us.

We shouldn't limit the definition of consciousness strictly to human awareness. Animals, plants, and everything surrounding us possesses its own mode of existence, which is to say, its own form of consciousness. Every entity acts according to the information available to it within its specific parameters. Water boils when heated. A human dies when subjected to extreme heat. Everything operates with the same level of consciousness relative to its own inherent capabilities.
Isn't that just basic logic?
While it's true that not everything can be laid out in a perfectly linear, logical sequence—given the numerous paradoxes we encounter—it is entirely reasonable to assume there are consciousnesses for whom reality is simply broader and more deeply understood than it is for us.

We shouldn't limit the definition of consciousness strictly to human awareness. Animals, plants, and everything surrounding us possesses its own mode of existence, which is to say, its own form of consciousness. Every entity acts according to the information available to it within its specific parameters. Water boils when heated. A human dies when subjected to extreme heat. Everything operates with the same level of consciousness relative to its own inherent capabilities.
Unfortunately, no. Since we haven't even begun to grasp the true nature of consciousness, making any absolute assumptions about it is pure guesswork. For all we know, "consciousness" might be a closed loop reserved strictly for humans—thanks to our specific brain structure—or perhaps primates or marine mammals.
We need a rigorous definition of consciousness first, and frankly, finding one will take a long time.

placidranger Regular

339 messages
joined Sep 2004

#12 · Nov 16, 2007

Think about watching a herd of elephants. If you start with the smallest one, you'll naturally assume there's a bigger one following—then an even larger one after that—but eventually, you hit the ceiling. You reach the biggest one.

Kevin Flores87 Newcomer

4 messages
joined Nov 2007

#13 · Nov 17, 2007

Jessica Gonzalez7 said:Yes, but the question was phrased differently. 🙂

Consider an average person placed in a room where a sound is played at a frequency far beyond the range of human hearing. If asked what happened, they would say nothing. Hearing is merely one of many sensory possibilities, but let us assume this person had no other way to sense that sound.

The question remains:

If you were that person, does that sound exist, right now, in this very moment while you are incapable of perceiving it?

This implies that perception cannot be used as information provided by someone else, because, in that specific moment, that information simply did not exist.

If we assume a person lacks developed hearing and that's their only way to catch a sound, then for them, that sound doesn't exist. But the sound *does* exist, because that was our starting premise. It just doesn't exist for that specific individual. As a phenomenon, the sound exists on its own terms.

Jessica Gonzalez7 MemberOP

11 messages
joined Mar 2005

#14 · Nov 17, 2007

Kevin Flores87 said:If we assume a person lacks developed hearing and that's their only way to catch a sound, then for them, that sound doesn't exist. But the sound *does* exist, because that was our starting premise. It just doesn't exist for that specific individual. As a phenomenon, the sound exists on its own terms.

Precisely.

Now, let us push the boundaries of the limits established by that response just a bit further.

The sound exists, but it does not exist for the subject under test, as they have absolutely no way to perceive it. Within their specific reality, the sound is non-existent.

Kevin Flores87 Newcomer

4 messages
joined Nov 2007

#15 · Nov 18, 2007

To be honest, I’m a little lost on what the opening question is actually getting at: "Is there something we cannot perceive?"

Was the point to hunt for an answer that proves whether something exists or doesn't exist —or perhaps just to argue for the existence of something specific that we simply lack the human capacity to sense? Because look, just because someone can't perceive something doesn't mean it isn't there. Maybe it just doesn't exist for certain beings that lack the hardware to detect it, while it remains perfectly real for others. On the flip side, if something truly doesn't exist at all, it's pretty much impossible to define what exactly that thing is that "doesn't exist" and therefore can't be perceived. Then there’s the third option: that something does exist, but it’s fundamentally unperceivable to anyone, anywhere. If that's the case, then its existence is essentially irrelevant. And if it's irrelevant, it lacks any real essence—unless, of course, its whole purpose is to be irrelevant, 🙂since even the insignificant things help maintain the balance🤷

Sandra Wilson68 Active Member

75 messages
joined Mar 2004

#16 · Nov 18, 2007

Is there anything out there that we just can't perceive?

No way!

The whole "is there anything we can't perceive?" question is usually a trap set by religious types. It’s their go-to move because their entire faith is built on that exact loophole—the idea that God exists specifically because He *can't* be perceived. For them, the fact that you can't see or touch Him isn't a flaw; it's their strongest argument. If they could actually prove His existence through perception, they wouldn't even need the faith part.

Look, take me for example. I don’t believe in God, and I don't buy into any of that "beyond perception" nonsense either. If I can't perceive it, it doesn't exist. Period.

Look, that doesn't make me a believer or anything. It’s not like I can actually prove there isn't something out there beyond what we can sense. My whole logic is basically built on my own perception of "everything that exists." To me, if it can't be perceived, it's not part of the equation. If it's outside that circle, it doesn't exist. Period.

How am I even supposed to prove that?

Look, it’s simple. It’s basically just how God perceives things. Based on that, I can easily knock out the three big existential, philosophical heavy hitters: WHAT exists, HOW it exists, and WHY it exists. The answers to those three questions cover "absolutely everything." So, anyone who actually gets them can confidently claim that there’s nothing else outside of this "absolute existence"—nothing outside of God himself. Because when you break down the answers to those three questions, it always boils down to the fact that "everything that exists" is ONE. And since everything is ONE, if you can fully wrap your head around even one tiny part of that ONE, you’re effectively perceiving the WHOLE thing at once. You're perceiving the entire, singular ALL.

People get tripped up because they can't wrap their heads around the fact that all the different things we see are actually just one single thing. They see variety and think it's separate, but they don't realize those differences are just various ways one singular reality manifests itself. This "one thing" has infinite power to show up in endless, wild ways—both inside our own heads and out in the physical world. We’re talking everything from an elementary particle or a beam of light to pure force and energy, or even something solid like an atom, a rock, a planet, a cell, a plant, an animal, or a human being. It's all the same stuff, just wearing different masks.

I won't beat around the bush. If you want the most efficient way to wrap your head around "everything that exists" as a single entity, you have to start by perceiving yourself as a tiny fragment of that one "All-Being." Once you get that, you realize the end result is this: a human being is simply Consciousness existing as a force—a phenomenon known as the "survival instinct." This instinct isn't just some reaction; it’s a self-contained force. It is its own reason, cause, purpose, and consequence. It pulls this off by wielding seven essential physical and mental tools required for anything to exist independently. We're talking about effort, willpower, perception (both sensory and intuitive), feeling (the sense of good and evil), memory, thought, and understanding. Through these faculties, consciousness—this survival instinct—gathers experience and knowledge. And with that knowledge, it gains the power to manifest itself in infinite, mind-blowing ways, both internally and out in the world.

And there it is. That’s the whole damn truth about "everything that exists." Like I said before: once you actually get yourself—once you truly perceive who you are at the core—you’ve essentially figured out everything else. You don't need to go hiking over some mountain range, crossing rivers or oceans just to see what’s on the other side. Why bother? Because you already know that whatever lies beyond any hill, river, or sea is exactly the same thing that you are. Maybe it shows up in a slightly different shape or state, but who cares? At the end of the day, consciousness—that raw drive to exist—is what matters. It's the thing that exists on its own. By using those seven physical and mental faculties to evolve, gain experience, and stack knowledge, that essence can mold itself into whatever form or state it wants to be. Period.

Hey there.

rustygull12 Newcomer

5 messages
joined Apr 2007

#17 · Nov 19, 2007

To me, the most profound inquiries are those where one essentially holds oneself up as the ultimate yardstick for reality. Does something truly exist if we lack the capacity to perceive it? In my estimation, it is far more pertinent to ask whether something exists simply because our senses allow us to grasp it. After all, our sensory faculties are far too flawed and limited to be considered absolute benchmarks, which makes posing such questions somewhat futile in the grand scheme of things.

Hannah Barnes Member

13 messages
joined Nov 2007

#18 · Nov 19, 2007

Do we even truly exist if some extraterrestrial entity from a distant galaxy can't even perceive us?
The galaxy spans millions of light-years, and there is simply no way for us to ever establish contact with them through any conceivable means...

Sandra Wilson68 Active Member

75 messages
joined Mar 2004

#19 · Nov 20, 2007

Frederick,

"Quote:"

I honestly think asking if something "exists" is a bit of a moot point—it’s really just about whether we have the capacity to perceive it.

"Existence" and "perception" aren't always on the same page. Take our senses, for example. Just because we perceive physical forces or material objects that make up the universe doesn't mean those things actually "exist" in any objective sense. You can't use what you feel to prove reality. In fact, if you really sit down and dissect what the word "existence" even means, it becomes pretty obvious: the material universe doesn't actually exist at all.

How is that even possible?

Look, you can't claim the entire material universe is just a collection of physical and mental actions performed by some subject's consciousness. Consciousness—the actual subject doing the heavy lifting—is the only thing that ABSOLUTELY exists. Everything else? It’s all relative. It only "exists" in the moment consciousness is busy performing those actions. Take running, for example. You can't say "running" exists as its own thing. Running is just the physical act of a runner. In that scenario, the runner is the subject performing the action. But even then, the runner only exists if they aren't just another set of physical and mental actions being carried out by some deeper subject behind them. And that’s exactly what's happening. It’s not just about the runner; it’s the entire material universe. Behind everything lies an invisible, unknowable consciousness that treats the whole universe as its own physical and mental expression. While it's acting, the universe looks like it "exists." The second that action stops, the whole damn universe vanishes like it was never even there. And since consciousness isn't material, you can't sense it or prove it through your five senses. Sensory perception won't get you anywhere. The only way to know it's there is through non-sensory means—specifically self-perception, or self-awareness. That's how consciousness proves itself to itself: by recognizing the physical and mental actions it knows it is performing. It all circles back to that Descartes quote: "I think, therefore I am."

This whole thing basically implies that matter doesn't even exist. It’s all just physical and mental activity from consciousness itself. When consciousness exerts itself—when it moves and works—we perceive that effort as force, or what we call energy. The second that movement stops, the energy vanishes too. It just turns into this shapeless, non-material, static field—space. If you actually try to sense it, it feels like nothing is there, making it look like matter and energy are just popping out of thin air.

Look, when it comes to sensory perception and actual cognition, you can't use your senses as some kind of yardstick or proof that anything even exists. Period. That means the only way to actually prove existence is through non-sensory perception—the kind where the observer can finally prove that they, and they alone, absolutely exist while everything else is just noise.

There’s this massive philosophical tradition called Hinduism that's built entirely on this specific way of looking at matter, life, and nature. It explains things perfectly. Here’s a quote from Hindu philosophy that paints the whole picture. I actually used this same quote a few days ago over in that thread about why we even exist and what the point of it all is.

At its core, the universe is just one unified field of natural laws. It’s non-material, timeless, unmanifested—basically, totally inactive. Think of it as this massive "nothingness" that serves as the origin and cause of absolutely everything. Everything exists within it—every big thing, every tiny detail, every world, every shape, and every connection—but only as a principle. It’s all just an idea, a latent possibility waiting to happen. A clear conscience.And once even the smallest fragment of that pure consciousness breaks away... It kicks into gear and goes active. Once it starts getting dynamic, it turns into something real—into matter, into a living thing, into the entire universe.. Look, it’s fully self-aware because it *is* pure consciousness. It possesses this massive, infinite power of self-organization, fueled by its creativity and acting as the unified field for every single ability and possibility out there. Its very nature is perfection, harmony, and bliss—and anything born from it carries that same essence. It stays blissful.

rustygull12 Newcomer

5 messages
joined Apr 2007

#20 · Nov 20, 2007

"In light of this, when we address the realm of sensory perception and cognitive processing, one simply cannot rely upon it as a definitive metric or concrete proof of any actual existence."
Well, they aren't wrong, are they? It strikes me as a rather futile exercise to even bother asking whether something exists if we lack the fundamental capacity to perceive it in the first place.

Is there anything beyond human perception?

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