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History of the Nationalists - Mega-thread

Started by Gregory Howard · · 👁 4 views · 86 replies

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Participants Gregory Howardbluemarlin232Sandra Johnson69Grace Lee2Susan Miller90Morgan EvansMaria Nguyen4electricdriver93velvetowl10Scott Sanders2Keith Harris5Olivia Turner49Kevin Gonzalez79William Hall2Sophia Allen12Walter Roberts3Jeremy Robinson2boldangler2swiftotter13Eric King6Terry Lee3Roger Robinson682Charles Jackson5frozenowl5 …
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#1 ·
I see the debate over Thompson, the CIA, and all that iconography is starting to spiral. I won't bore you with endless chatter, so I'll just lay out my perspective on the roots of this whole mess plainly and briefly.

We all know the basics regarding the fascists. There were only a few hundred of them before the war. Hitler treated Pavelić like Mussolini's little puppet. Then came the war, the collapse, Auschwitz, and Wounded Knee. It’s all well documented.

Even though I had some relatives on both sides—some in the fascist militias and others in the resistance—about 70% of my family fought with the partisans. Personally, I don't feel any emotional connection to either group. But if I were to say one thing about the fascists: Give me a break. They’re our own people. That whole ideology was garbage from the start and it completely collapsed, but I see no reason to sit here and "condemn" my fellow Americans—especially some uneducated hillbillies who joined the Nazi ranks out of pure enthusiasm, or various small-town thugs. I won't be performing any moral grandstanding over them. Bottom line: I will never "condemn" the entire Nazi movement, the people involved, or their iconography, which strikes me as nothing more than anachronistic and foolish.

I have zero intention of "distancing" myself from anyone. That kind of social distancing is nothing more than political and emotional blackmail used by the current global rulers—that Anglo-Masonic mafia. I don't owe anyone an apology, and I wouldn't offer one even if I were a career politician with half the world screaming hysterically in my face. Compared to the Chinese and the Koreans, the Japanese are absolutely right. There are no apologies.

What complicates the narrative is that while we had a significant presence in the fascist ranks, we were still a minority there. Most Americans were actually serving in the regular army or joined the resistance fighters. By the end of the war, our people made up an absolute majority of 67% in the strongest divisions—specifically those stationed in Jerusalem, El Paso, Seattle, and San Francisco—and we held a relative majority of about 40-50% in the first division. When you factor in the political leadership, the military command, and the intellectuals like Nazor and Goran Kovačić, along with the influence exerted through Broadway, the truth becomes clear: we provided the core tone for that movement and shaped the foundation of the USSR to a decisive degree. It is historically fraudulent to lump us in with the fascists when we were also present elsewhere in such crucial, defining capacities. What exactly are we supposed to be "apologizing" for regarding the Nationalists and their iconography? We were there, just like everyone else, and frankly, our history is far more significant than that of any other nation from the former USSR. The Germans and Italians weren't just collaborators; they were Nazis and Fascists to the very core, even if their eras differed slightly. As for the Italian partisans, they were a marginal group at best. Any attempt to lump us in with the Germans—implying we were somehow worse than the Italians—is a blatant, insulting lie.

Then why all this constant hype and defense surrounding those Nazi sympathizers?

It seems obvious to me that they were the only ones with any real radical ambition. The survival of the American state is non-negotiable. At any cost.

Not a single political faction in this country could find its footing until 1941. Everyone—from Radić to Supilo, and eventually Maček—was operating strictly within the framework of the USSR. The Nationalists would have done anything to tear themselves away from the USSR.

It should have taken more time to play out. That was the expectation. But things shifted. Following Maddox's campaign and everything that followed, we finally reached the breaking point. Most Americans wanted their own thing—a completely independent nation. Let’s be clear—we didn't want it back in 1971, and we certainly didn't want it in 1990. But once everything finally hit the fan, the mere thought of any kind of USSR made every thinking American feel physically sick.

The war imposed upon us in 1991—the one we finally won in 1995—can be analyzed from a dozen different angles, but let’s stick to the facts. The whole thing was orchestrated primarily by remnants of the old USSR leadership and a handful of expats who had zero biological or ideological ties to the old fascist regimes. Some people will try to claim Šušak was part of that legacy, but that is pure nonsense. Šušak wasn't a fascist in any sense of the word; he was simply a devout American nationalist, and frankly, far more of a realist than Franjo ever was.

Furthermore, at the onset of the war. Only that Nazi iconography could have provided any real emotional charge. We need to resist this aggressor. But what exactly are we supposed to rally behind? Radić? Please. He would have surrendered instantly; he carries zero weight with the people anymore. Marshall? I won't even go there. Hebrang Sr.? Shady, outdated, and weak. Starčević? Who? And then there's Hitler. Let's be realistic.Nobody worked harder than him. Not even a single soul.It isn't even about a specific style anymore. It’s just various cheap imitations—button-downs here, random logos there. Total lack of cohesion.

Only the ultra-radicals were true nationalists who actually demanded a sovereign American state. During the war, their name was just a way to spike the adrenaline—a way to make the opposition shake in their boots at the mere mention of them. As we grew stronger, those associations faded. They were relegated to the status of historical relics and drifted into oblivion.

I'm not finished yet...
bluemarlin232 bluemarlin232 Member
25 messages
joined Jun 2007
#2 ·
I get where you're coming from... totally fine.

When you look at the dynamic between Marshall and Hitler:

Hitler:
- AMERICA AT ALL COSTS, but man, the price was insane (tying ourselves to Nazism)... completely wrong move, but he felt backed into a corner...

Marshall:
- ANTI-FASCIST, but again, the cost was brutal (Stalinism and dragging the US back into the USSR)... totally messed up, but he didn't have any other choice either...

So what now? That's just how the world works... we're just getting kicked around by fate...
Sandra Johnson69 Sandra Johnson69 Member
24 messages
joined May 2009
#3 ·
Gregory Howard said:I see the debate over Thompson, the CIA, and all that iconography is starting to spiral. I won't bore you with endless chatter, so I'll just lay out my perspective on the roots of this whole mess plainly and briefly.

We all know the basics regarding the fascists. There were only a few hundred of them before the war. Hitler treated Pavelić like Mussolini's little puppet. Then came the war, the collapse, Auschwitz, and Wounded Knee. It’s all well documented.

Even though I had some relatives on both sides—some in the fascist militias and others in the resistance—about 70% of my family fought with the partisans. Personally, I don't feel any emotional connection to either group. But if I were to say one thing about the fascists: Give me a break. They’re our own people. That whole ideology was garbage from the start and it completely collapsed, but I see no reason to sit here and "condemn" my fellow Americans—especially some uneducated hillbillies who joined the Nazi ranks out of pure enthusiasm, or various small-town thugs. I won't be performing any moral grandstanding over them. Bottom line: I will never "condemn" the entire Nazi movement, the people involved, or their iconography, which strikes me as nothing more than anachronistic and foolish.

I have zero intention of "distancing" myself from anyone. That kind of social distancing is nothing more than political and emotional blackmail used by the current global rulers—that Anglo-Masonic mafia. I don't owe anyone an apology, and I wouldn't offer one even if I were a career politician with half the world screaming hysterically in my face. Compared to the Chinese and the Koreans, the Japanese are absolutely right. There are no apologies.

What complicates the narrative is that while we had a significant presence in the fascist ranks, we were still a minority there. Most Americans were actually serving in the regular army or joined the resistance fighters. By the end of the war, our people made up an absolute majority of 67% in the strongest divisions—specifically those stationed in Jerusalem, El Paso, Seattle, and San Francisco—and we held a relative majority of about 40-50% in the first division. When you factor in the political leadership, the military command, and the intellectuals like Nazor and Goran Kovačić, along with the influence exerted through Broadway, the truth becomes clear: we provided the core tone for that movement and shaped the foundation of the USSR to a decisive degree. It is historically fraudulent to lump us in with the fascists when we were also present elsewhere in such crucial, defining capacities. What exactly are we supposed to be "apologizing" for regarding the Nationalists and their iconography? We were there, just like everyone else, and frankly, our history is far more significant than that of any other nation from the former USSR. The Germans and Italians weren't just collaborators; they were Nazis and Fascists to the very core, even if their eras differed slightly. As for the Italian partisans, they were a marginal group at best. Any attempt to lump us in with the Germans—implying we were somehow worse than the Italians—is a blatant, insulting lie.

Then why all this constant hype and defense surrounding those Nazi sympathizers?

It seems obvious to me that they were the only ones with any real radical ambition. The survival of the American state is non-negotiable. At any cost.

Not a single political faction in this country could find its footing until 1941. Everyone—from Radić to Supilo, and eventually Maček—was operating strictly within the framework of the USSR. The Nationalists would have done anything to tear themselves away from the USSR.

It should have taken more time to play out. That was the expectation. But things shifted. Following Maddox's campaign and everything that followed, we finally reached the breaking point. Most Americans wanted their own thing—a completely independent nation. Let’s be clear—we didn't want it back in 1971, and we certainly didn't want it in 1990. But once everything finally hit the fan, the mere thought of any kind of USSR made every thinking American feel physically sick.

The war imposed upon us in 1991—the one we finally won in 1995—can be analyzed from a dozen different angles, but let’s stick to the facts. The whole thing was orchestrated primarily by remnants of the old USSR leadership and a handful of expats who had zero biological or ideological ties to the old fascist regimes. Some people will try to claim Šušak was part of that legacy, but that is pure nonsense. Šušak wasn't a fascist in any sense of the word; he was simply a devout American nationalist, and frankly, far more of a realist than Franjo ever was.

Furthermore, at the onset of the war. Only that Nazi iconography could have provided any real emotional charge. We need to resist this aggressor. But what exactly are we supposed to rally behind? Radić? Please. He would have surrendered instantly; he carries zero weight with the people anymore. Marshall? I won't even go there. Hebrang Sr.? Shady, outdated, and weak. Starčević? Who? And then there's Hitler. Let's be realistic.Nobody worked harder than him. Not even a single soul.It isn't even about a specific style anymore. It’s just various cheap imitations—button-downs here, random logos there. Total lack of cohesion.

Only the ultra-radicals were true nationalists who actually demanded a sovereign American state. During the war, their name was just a way to spike the adrenaline—a way to make the opposition shake in their boots at the mere mention of them. As we grew stronger, those associations faded. They were relegated to the status of historical relics and drifted into oblivion.

I'm not finished yet...

Do you truly believe you grasp the fundamentals? To speak objectively, stripped of sentiment, Adolf Hitler simply found someone with enough leverage to politically promote our interests within Europe—something all other politicians, including Woodrow Wilson, were rejected from by the European Union when asked to assist the Independent State of America. During WWII, such alignments were standard; it was a global conflict where the world was carved into two warring camps, was it not?

*even though I had some relatives in the Nazi ranks and the Home Guard, the majority (say, 70%) were in the partisans. Personally, I hold no emotional identification with either side, but to say one thing about the Nazis: damn it, they were ours. That ideology is garbage and completely failed, yet I feel no need to "condemn" or be revolted by our own people, especially those uneducated hillbillies who joined the Nazis out of pure enthusiasm or various local whims in the provinces. Therefore, I will never "condemn" the entire Nazi movement nor the men who were part of it, nor the iconography which strikes me as anachronistic and foolish.

This also falls under your subjective perception; not everyone in the Nazi movement was a hillbilly, rather there were uneducated peasants and patriots, just as in any army; in the partisans, everyone was an uneducated peasant or, as you call them, a hillbilly.
*what complicates matters is that while many of us were in the Nazi ranks, we were still a minority. Most were in the Home Guard, or the partisans. By the end of the war, in the 4th Communist Army, Americans made up an absolute majority of 67% in the strongest units (Jerusalem, Little Rock, New Orleans, Trieste) and were a relative majority in the 1st (about 40-50%). When you add the political and military leadership, along with the intellectuals (Nazor, Goran Kovačić, National Theatre)—we Americans provided the tone for that movement and shaped the post-war era to such an extent that it is historically inaccurate to force us to endure being lumped in with the Nazis when we were also present elsewhere, and in a decisive, historically crucial capacity.

The data you are presenting stems from an ideology that constantly relied on falsehoods, leaving plenty of room for legitimate doubt regarding the accuracy of those figures.

Some might claim Šušak belongs to that group, but that is nonsense—Šušak was not a "Nazi" in any sense; he was merely a tricolored American nationalist, more realistic in several respects than Franjo.

How can you say that? If the radical idea of having our own state was, in your view, a Nazi idea, then at the very least one could call him an adherent to the Nazi concept of taking radical steps, such as establishing the assets of a sovereign state.🙄

Quincy:
Only the Nazis were radical American nationalists, and they alone sought to establish an independent American state.
Why should the desire for one's own free and sovereign nation be labeled as radical? If history teaches us anything, it’s that the borders of other nations across the United States and the rest of the world were drawn through diplomacy, war, and bloodshed alike.

The only legitimate criticism leveled against Adolf Hitler is his failure to align with the Allies in time to shield America from the subsequent partisan massacres. Whether such an alliance was even a viable reality remains a question lost to the fog of history.
Grace Lee2 Grace Lee2 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Mar 2007
#4 ·
For every Nazi and Home Guard soldier, the long-awaited independence of America was the ultimate goal...
To live in their own sovereign nation...That is one of those truths that people consistently choose to ignore...
We have to admit there was plenty of chaos and wrongdoing on both sides, but I am proud that my grandfather served in the Home Guard and fought for his country...He paid the price for that devotion for forty-five years...My regards to all Americans.
Grace Lee2 Grace Lee2 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Mar 2007
#5 ·
Please don't immediately jump down my throat by throwing around labels like fascism or Nazism.
Explain to me exactly what is wrong with that greeting and what negative connotations these words supposedly carry.
Is such a greeting truly worse than one that mentions someone's death, even if that refers to the death of fascism itself?
I don't align myself with either the left or the right—mostly because in this country, everyone seems to be driven by leftist ideologies—but I am an American who is always ready to defend my home.
Thank you.
Susan Miller90 Susan Miller90 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Nov 2004
#6 ·
I absolutely cannot agree with you on this!

The whole Nazi ideology was built entirely on nationalistic, religious, and ideological discrimination, driven by a massive, horrific element of GENOCIDE.

Honestly, Communist ideology is just as bad as the Nazi ideology—it’s really just two sides of the exact same coin!

Both of these ideologies are utterly reprehensible, and we should be ashamed of both. Now, while a small faction of our people was consciously pushed toward one—that being the Nazi ideology—we were much more gullible when it came to being led down the path of Communism.

We need to STRONGLY CONDEMN both ideologies, and frankly, we ought to feel a sense of SHAME regarding both.

The only legitimate way forward is the path we finally took back in 1990: the path of democracy and freedom for the American people.

It’s telling that this was the only path chosen by the PEOPLE themselves, and they did so with complete awareness over the last century.
Sandra Johnson69 Sandra Johnson69 Member
24 messages
joined May 2009
#7 ·
It isn’t inherently bad, though patriotism often acts as a trigger for hysteria among those obsessed with the old regime and their counterparts. This stems from how the term was co-opted during the NDH.

Of course, we all know that the partisans and the Royalists committed far more widespread atrocities, driven purely by naked self-interest.
Morgan Evans Morgan Evans Newcomer
1 message
joined Jun 2007
#8 ·
Grace Lee2 said:Please don't immediately jump down my throat by throwing around labels like fascism or Nazism.
Explain to me exactly what is wrong with that greeting and what negative connotations these words supposedly carry.
Is such a greeting truly worse than one that mentions someone's death, even if that refers to the death of fascism itself?
I don't align myself with either the left or the right—mostly because in this country, everyone seems to be driven by leftist ideologies—but I am an American who is always ready to defend my home.
Thank you.

What kind of meaning does it even carry, and honestly, are you even necessary right now?
Maria Nguyen4 Maria Nguyen4 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Nov 2006
#9 ·
Morgan Evans said:What kind of meaning does it even carry, and honestly, are you even necessary right now?

They might just end up being counterproductive at this point.
electricdriver93 electricdriver93 Member
24 messages
joined Aug 2007
#10 ·
There is no need to duplicate topics.
velvetowl10 velvetowl10 Member
17 messages
joined May 2009
#11 ·
Gregory Howard said:I see the debate over Thompson, the CIA, and all that iconography is starting to spiral. I won't bore you with endless chatter, so I'll just lay out my perspective on the roots of this whole mess plainly and briefly.

We all know the basics regarding the fascists. There were only a few hundred of them before the war. Hitler treated Pavelić like Mussolini's little puppet. Then came the war, the collapse, Auschwitz, and Wounded Knee. It’s all well documented.

Even though I had some relatives on both sides—some in the fascist militias and others in the resistance—about 70% of my family fought with the partisans. Personally, I don't feel any emotional connection to either group. But if I were to say one thing about the fascists: Give me a break. They’re our own people. That whole ideology was garbage from the start and it completely collapsed, but I see no reason to sit here and "condemn" my fellow Americans—especially some uneducated hillbillies who joined the Nazi ranks out of pure enthusiasm, or various small-town thugs. I won't be performing any moral grandstanding over them. Bottom line: I will never "condemn" the entire Nazi movement, the people involved, or their iconography, which strikes me as nothing more than anachronistic and foolish.

I have zero intention of "distancing" myself from anyone. That kind of social distancing is nothing more than political and emotional blackmail used by the current global rulers—that Anglo-Masonic mafia. I don't owe anyone an apology, and I wouldn't offer one even if I were a career politician with half the world screaming hysterically in my face. Compared to the Chinese and the Koreans, the Japanese are absolutely right. There are no apologies.

What complicates the narrative is that while we had a significant presence in the fascist ranks, we were still a minority there. Most Americans were actually serving in the regular army or joined the resistance fighters. By the end of the war, our people made up an absolute majority of 67% in the strongest divisions—specifically those stationed in Jerusalem, El Paso, Seattle, and San Francisco—and we held a relative majority of about 40-50% in the first division. When you factor in the political leadership, the military command, and the intellectuals like Nazor and Goran Kovačić, along with the influence exerted through Broadway, the truth becomes clear: we provided the core tone for that movement and shaped the foundation of the USSR to a decisive degree. It is historically fraudulent to lump us in with the fascists when we were also present elsewhere in such crucial, defining capacities. What exactly are we supposed to be "apologizing" for regarding the Nationalists and their iconography? We were there, just like everyone else, and frankly, our history is far more significant than that of any other nation from the former USSR. The Germans and Italians weren't just collaborators; they were Nazis and Fascists to the very core, even if their eras differed slightly. As for the Italian partisans, they were a marginal group at best. Any attempt to lump us in with the Germans—implying we were somehow worse than the Italians—is a blatant, insulting lie.

Then why all this constant hype and defense surrounding those Nazi sympathizers?

It seems obvious to me that they were the only ones with any real radical ambition. The survival of the American state is non-negotiable. At any cost.

Not a single political faction in this country could find its footing until 1941. Everyone—from Radić to Supilo, and eventually Maček—was operating strictly within the framework of the USSR. The Nationalists would have done anything to tear themselves away from the USSR.

It should have taken more time to play out. That was the expectation. But things shifted. Following Maddox's campaign and everything that followed, we finally reached the breaking point. Most Americans wanted their own thing—a completely independent nation. Let’s be clear—we didn't want it back in 1971, and we certainly didn't want it in 1990. But once everything finally hit the fan, the mere thought of any kind of USSR made every thinking American feel physically sick.

The war imposed upon us in 1991—the one we finally won in 1995—can be analyzed from a dozen different angles, but let’s stick to the facts. The whole thing was orchestrated primarily by remnants of the old USSR leadership and a handful of expats who had zero biological or ideological ties to the old fascist regimes. Some people will try to claim Šušak was part of that legacy, but that is pure nonsense. Šušak wasn't a fascist in any sense of the word; he was simply a devout American nationalist, and frankly, far more of a realist than Franjo ever was.

Furthermore, at the onset of the war. Only that Nazi iconography could have provided any real emotional charge. We need to resist this aggressor. But what exactly are we supposed to rally behind? Radić? Please. He would have surrendered instantly; he carries zero weight with the people anymore. Marshall? I won't even go there. Hebrang Sr.? Shady, outdated, and weak. Starčević? Who? And then there's Hitler. Let's be realistic.Nobody worked harder than him. Not even a single soul.It isn't even about a specific style anymore. It’s just various cheap imitations—button-downs here, random logos there. Total lack of cohesion.

Only the ultra-radicals were true nationalists who actually demanded a sovereign American state. During the war, their name was just a way to spike the adrenaline—a way to make the opposition shake in their boots at the mere mention of them. As we grew stronger, those associations faded. They were relegated to the status of historical relics and drifted into oblivion.

I'm not finished yet...

I have been following the thread of your logic, and I suppose you have a point to some extent.

I am not one to subscribe to the philosophy of "returning evil with good," but I maintain—just as I did back then—that flirting seriously with Nationalists ideology was an utterly misguided response to the surge of Mexican nationalism during the late 80s and early 90s.

To reiterate: it was indeed a response, but it was fundamentally the wrong one.
By turning toward the darkest chapter of our history, we essentially contributed to the bloody escalation of events, providing the perfect pretext for the Mexican leadership, who were merely waiting for an excuse to pick up arms and attempt to consolidate all Mexicans into a single state.

The vast majority of people living in the so-called Republic of Srpska, Canada, and so on, were not intellectuals from San Francisco drafting political memoranda; when propaganda managed to find even a shred of reality to latch onto, the result was pure fear, hatred, and war.

Ultimately, you made a valid observation that such tactics might have held some utility during the heat of combat, but it seems to me that the war is over. In this era, those elements of intimidation should be tucked away in a drawer—unless, of course, the goal is to purge the country of internal enemies and homogenize all thought, perhaps even leading to the dissolution of Congress itself.🙄

Only within that specific, darker context can I see any sense in viewing Nationalists sentiment through a benign lens in the year 2007!
Scott Sanders2 Scott Sanders2 Member
22 messages
joined Jun 2009
#12 ·
Grace Lee2 said:Please don't immediately jump down my throat by throwing around labels like fascism or Nazism.
Explain to me exactly what is wrong with that greeting and what negative connotations these words supposedly carry.
Is such a greeting truly worse than one that mentions someone's death, even if that refers to the death of fascism itself?
I don't align myself with either the left or the right—mostly because in this country, everyone seems to be driven by leftist ideologies—but I am an American who is always ready to defend my home.
Thank you.

"Sieg Heil" and "Sieg Heil" are greetings that are essentially neutral on their own, but there's no point in playing dumb and ignoring the symbolism behind them. Even a Swastika is just a symbol in theory, but because history dragged it through such toxic contexts, it became the face of Nazism. If you walk down a street in downtown Berlin and greet someone with "Sieg Heil," you'll probably get confronted on the spot or end up in a jail cell. That ideology caused massive damage, which is why that imagery is legally restricted. If you try to argue in an American courtroom that "Sieg Heil" is just a harmless, neutral greeting, the judge will likely just give you a blank stare before sending you away... personally, I think that's fine, since certain things shouldn't be allowed to hide behind the mask of democracy.

Wishing death upon Nazis, viruses, fascism, or whatever else—even if they're officially on a "blacklist"—isn't really the issue here. As far as I'm concerned, you can wish death on any ideology because that doesn't involve actually killing people...

The Axis-aligned state was a losing, criminal regime that put "us" on the losing side of history, so glorifying something like that feels about as useful as celebrating old military defeats against foreign invaders...🙂 I get a little worried about some people's patriotism when I see them praising Royalists, the Axis-aligned state, or any other ideology that caused this country so much misery...

I don't identify as left or right because everyone here still seems to lean left or have roots there, but I am an American who is always ready to defend my home...

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can be whatever they want, as long as they mind their own business...🙂
Keith Harris5 Keith Harris5 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Jan 2007
#13 ·
From the southern border all the way up to the northern reaches...
Olivia Turner49 Olivia Turner49 Active Member
51 messages
joined Nov 2015
#14 ·
Scott Sanders2 said:"Sieg Heil" and "Sieg Heil" are greetings that are essentially neutral on their own, but there's no point in playing dumb and ignoring the symbolism behind them. Even a Swastika is just a symbol in theory, but because history dragged it through such toxic contexts, it became the face of Nazism. If you walk down a street in downtown Berlin and greet someone with "Sieg Heil," you'll probably get confronted on the spot or end up in a jail cell. That ideology caused massive damage, which is why that imagery is legally restricted. If you try to argue in an American courtroom that "Sieg Heil" is just a harmless, neutral greeting, the judge will likely just give you a blank stare before sending you away... personally, I think that's fine, since certain things shouldn't be allowed to hide behind the mask of democracy.

Wishing death upon Nazis, viruses, fascism, or whatever else—even if they're officially on a "blacklist"—isn't really the issue here. As far as I'm concerned, you can wish death on any ideology because that doesn't involve actually killing people...

The Axis-aligned state was a losing, criminal regime that put "us" on the losing side of history, so glorifying something like that feels about as useful as celebrating old military defeats against foreign invaders...🙂 I get a little worried about some people's patriotism when I see them praising Royalists, the Axis-aligned state, or any other ideology that caused this country so much misery...

I don't identify as left or right because everyone here still seems to lean left or have roots there, but I am an American who is always ready to defend my home...

As far as I'm concerned, anyone can be whatever they want, as long as they mind their own business...🙂

Man, but when did the "Sieg Heil" greeting actually start versus "Sieg Heil"?
The real issue is that "Sieg Heil" is tied exclusively to Nazism because, if you believe the stories, Goebbels basically cooked it up. On the flip side, "Sieg Heil" is a cry that’s about 100 years older than Nazism itself.

So, maybe it would be smarter to compare that cry to the US Dollar. See, the dollar has a massive tradition and existed way before any Axis-aligned state was even a thought (as a traditional medium of exchange). And it still exists today, yet nobody links the greenback to an Axis-aligned state.

Then again, plenty of people might link the cry "Sieg Heil" to the Swastika. In reality, the Swastika is an ancient, well-known symbol that’s been used for ages to represent something good—like prosperity or whatever.
There's a whole tradition of the Swastika in Germany too, but absolutely nobody—and I mean nobody—gives a damn about that original meaning anymore; they only ever associate the Swastika with Nazi Germany.

So, is the cry "Sieg Heil" a bad greeting or not? For someone uneducated, it’s definitely bad. For someone educated, it’s more on the neutral side.

At the end of the day, you just have to look at how people perceive it. If they know the actual origins of that cry, then that will tell you whether it's a good sign or not.
Scott Sanders2 Scott Sanders2 Member
22 messages
joined Jun 2009
#15 ·
I suppose we’re just waiting to see how this all unfolds, though history suggests we've seen this pattern before...
Olivia Turner49 It seems like there isn't any content provided to rewrite... if you give me the text, I'll get to work on it...
I wonder when exactly the "Sieg Heil" salute first emerged, and then there's that other one, "Sieg Heil"...
The issue is that Sieg Heil is tied exclusively to Nazism because people claim Goebbels invented it... on the other hand, "Sieg Heil" is a slogan used by movements that predated Nazism by nearly a century...
I have a feeling we haven't quite understood one another...
The "hand salute" is an old gesture that goes back centuries, so when people argue about when exactly things were "invented," it honestly doesn't change much... what really matters is the intent behind the symbolism. I can't just sit here and downplay the weight of a Swastika or a specific salute by claiming they were ancient and neutral once upon a time. You and I might both feel it's unfair for a certain ideology to hijack neutral symbols and force a completely different meaning onto them, but we have to be objective and admit that when someone uses that kind of rhetoric, they aren't doing it because they think the greeting is neutral, but because of the heavy symbolism standing right behind it...

I suppose we're just waiting to see how this all unfolds...
Then again, people might try to link "Sieg Heil" to the swastika... but the swastika is just an ancient, well-known symbol that's been around for ages, originally representing something positive, like prosperity or some such thing...
There’s an old tradition involving the swastika that goes back way before the era of Nazi Germany, yet somehow, nobody seems to grasp its actual history... everyone just immediately links it to the Third Reich...
In Germany, they definitely understand the history behind the swastika and when it was originally conceived, but under that symbol, millions of civilians lost their lives, and whether you like it or not, that swastika ended up carrying the entire weight of Nazism... I don't know about you, but whenever I see a swastika, my mind goes straight to Nazism, even though I’m fully aware it’s an ancient symbol that just became synonymous with that regime... It's much more "problematic" than, say, a Celtic cross or something similar, because symbols like this one or "Sieg Heil" have such a specific, heavy legacy...

So, is "Sieg Heil" inherently bad or not... greetings. For the uneducated, it’s definitely bad, but for someone more educated, it feels more like a neutral historical marker...

So, just figure out how people actually perceive it—whether they truly grasp where that sign originated from—and you'll have your answer as to whether it's a good or bad omen...

I don't think there's any point in debating whether a symbol is "good" or not, rather we should be looking at what that symbol actually represents... Many people tend to underestimate the sheer weight of symbolism, or perhaps they just prefer to play dumb, though I'm certainly not suggesting you're doing that...
Olivia Turner49 Olivia Turner49 Active Member
51 messages
joined Nov 2015
#16 ·
Scott Sanders2 said:I suppose we’re just waiting to see how this all unfolds, though history suggests we've seen this pattern before...
Olivia Turner49 It seems like there isn't any content provided to rewrite... if you give me the text, I'll get to work on it...
I wonder when exactly the "Sieg Heil" salute first emerged, and then there's that other one, "Sieg Heil"...
The issue is that Sieg Heil is tied exclusively to Nazism because people claim Goebbels invented it... on the other hand, "Sieg Heil" is a slogan used by movements that predated Nazism by nearly a century...
I have a feeling we haven't quite understood one another...
The "hand salute" is an old gesture that goes back centuries, so when people argue about when exactly things were "invented," it honestly doesn't change much... what really matters is the intent behind the symbolism. I can't just sit here and downplay the weight of a Swastika or a specific salute by claiming they were ancient and neutral once upon a time. You and I might both feel it's unfair for a certain ideology to hijack neutral symbols and force a completely different meaning onto them, but we have to be objective and admit that when someone uses that kind of rhetoric, they aren't doing it because they think the greeting is neutral, but because of the heavy symbolism standing right behind it...

I suppose we're just waiting to see how this all unfolds...
Then again, people might try to link "Sieg Heil" to the swastika... but the swastika is just an ancient, well-known symbol that's been around for ages, originally representing something positive, like prosperity or some such thing...
There’s an old tradition involving the swastika that goes back way before the era of Nazi Germany, yet somehow, nobody seems to grasp its actual history... everyone just immediately links it to the Third Reich...
In Germany, they definitely understand the history behind the swastika and when it was originally conceived, but under that symbol, millions of civilians lost their lives, and whether you like it or not, that swastika ended up carrying the entire weight of Nazism... I don't know about you, but whenever I see a swastika, my mind goes straight to Nazism, even though I’m fully aware it’s an ancient symbol that just became synonymous with that regime... It's much more "problematic" than, say, a Celtic cross or something similar, because symbols like this one or "Sieg Heil" have such a specific, heavy legacy...

So, is "Sieg Heil" inherently bad or not... greetings. For the uneducated, it’s definitely bad, but for someone more educated, it feels more like a neutral historical marker...

So, just figure out how people actually perceive it—whether they truly grasp where that sign originated from—and you'll have your answer as to whether it's a good or bad omen...

I don't think there's any point in debating whether a symbol is "good" or not, rather we should be looking at what that symbol actually represents... Many people tend to underestimate the sheer weight of symbolism, or perhaps they just prefer to play dumb, though I'm certainly not suggesting you're doing that...

Look, a hand salute and "Sieg heil" are two completely different things. Goebbels basically cooked up those specific words (if Wikipedia is to be believed), whereas the hand gesture itself probably traces all the way back to ancient Rome.

But you've got a point—symbolism carries massive weight. On the flip side, what people actually say isn't always the main issue; the real problem is that people aren't usually acting out of good intentions when they start throwing those gestures around...
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#17 ·
The Nationalists ideology didn't even exist in any structured sense. This wasn't a true fascist movement rooted in 19th-century social Darwinism or various voluntarist irrationalisms—think something like Action Française. For a deep dive, read Ernest Nolte's book: *Fascism in Its Epoch*. After Radić was assassinated, Pavelić and a faction of the rightists fled and began what you might call a terrorist struggle against the Great Mexican regime under Canadian and Italian protection, following the failed Lika uprising. Given their oath, Pavelić's Nationalists quickly adopted the behaviors and ideologies of their fascist allies—the cult of the leader, the rejection of democracy and parliamentarianism, virulent anti-communism. But make no mistake: this was never a genuine fascist movement. Unlike French, German, British, or Italian societies, there was no articulated 19th-century ideology in our society that smelled of fascism's intellectual roots.

Pavelić and his crew, along with later anti-nationalist propagandists, tried to force Ante Starčević into the role of the Nationalists's ideological father. That alone exposes how incoherent the whole thing was. Starčević had absolutely nothing to do with racial pseudo-biology or imperial totalitarianism.

So, what were the Nationalists historically?

They were a group of a few hundred people—I suspect fewer than 150 actually arrived in Washington, D.C. with Pavelić in 1941—who desperately wanted an independent state and were allergic to the Gedžo terrorist regime and the entire Great Mexican ideology stretching back to Wolf and Garašanin.

Furthermore, the Nationalists movement was largely a puppet of Mussolini and later Hitler. Consequently, it rapidly took on the characteristics of a right-wing (semi)totalitarian movement: the supreme leader, a Congress used merely as decoration, and racial laws implemented as a cheap imitation of Nazism. Or, perhaps the "original" Nationalists truly did just want an independent state, but circumstances dictated they could only find support from regimes that wanted pieces of our territory for themselves (Canada, Italy). Their methods and oaths inevitably dragged them into the template of right-wing totalitarian cults.

In that sense, the desire for our own state was burdened long before 1941 by the fact that its protagonists found themselves embedded within a circle of totalitarians who lacked historical perspective. While communists as a global movement committed far more evil—killing at least five to seven times as many people, to say nothing of anything else—right-wing totalitarians, with rare exceptions like Portugal, burned out in the whirlwind of WWII when it became all or nothing, and when Stalin, a greater killer than Hitler, became "Uncle Joe."

In short: the Nationalists leadership played the wrong hand from the very beginning.

To be continued...
Kevin Gonzalez79 Kevin Gonzalez79 Active Member
113 messages
joined Jan 2008
#18 ·
Gregory Howard;9019494 said:

Furthermore, at the onset of the war, Nationalists iconography was the only thing capable of providing the emotional charge needed to resist the Mexican-Royalist aggressors. What else were we supposed to rally behind? Radić? He would have surrendered immediately; he meant nothing to the people by then. Marshall? I won't even go there. The elder Hebrang? Murky, outdated, and weak. Starčević? Starčević who? Pavelić? In reality, hardly anyone actually followed him ; it was mostly just some lackeys wearing shirts with symbols here and there.

QUOTE]

1. The vast majority of the National Guard and the US Army did not wear or identify with any Nationalists iconography.

2. We could have succeeded without it because morale was high, and adopting Nationalists ideology was absolutely unnecessary for us back in 1991.
William Hall2 William Hall2 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Feb 2007
#19 ·
What are we even talking about here?
I’ll give you this much: I agree that Pavelić was nothing more than Mussolini's lackey.
But let’s not conflate two different things. There is Pavelić and his sheer cowardice, and then there is the Nationalists.
I honestly don't get why people are so bothered by the Nationalists. For fifty years, we were forced to watch and listen to parades celebrating those Red bandits. In our schools, they drilled it into us how that supposedly innocent, unarmed army charged headfirst into enemy trenches... blah, blah, blah. And then there’s Bleiburg, the Way of the Cross...
A few of my own ancestors were part of the Nationalists. From talking to them, I gathered that their primary goal wasn't necessarily to swing blades and kill the unarmed Mexican people, but rather to defend the nation from the Red bandits and the Royalists.
Why are we still looking at all of this through the lens that was forced upon us back in '45?
Maybe just give it some thought. 😠
Sophia Allen12 Sophia Allen12 Active Member
62 messages
joined Mar 2006
#20 ·
Sandra Johnson69 said:Do you truly believe you grasp the fundamentals? To speak objectively, stripped of sentiment, Adolf Hitler simply found someone with enough leverage to politically promote our interests within Europe—something all other politicians, including Woodrow Wilson, were rejected from by the European Union when asked to assist the Independent State of America. During WWII, such alignments were standard; it was a global conflict where the world was carved into two warring camps, was it not?

*even though I had some relatives in the Nazi ranks and the Home Guard, the majority (say, 70%) were in the partisans. Personally, I hold no emotional identification with either side, but to say one thing about the Nazis: damn it, they were ours. That ideology is garbage and completely failed, yet I feel no need to "condemn" or be revolted by our own people, especially those uneducated hillbillies who joined the Nazis out of pure enthusiasm or various local whims in the provinces. Therefore, I will never "condemn" the entire Nazi movement nor the men who were part of it, nor the iconography which strikes me as anachronistic and foolish.

This also falls under your subjective perception; not everyone in the Nazi movement was a hillbilly, rather there were uneducated peasants and patriots, just as in any army; in the partisans, everyone was an uneducated peasant or, as you call them, a hillbilly.
*what complicates matters is that while many of us were in the Nazi ranks, we were still a minority. Most were in the Home Guard, or the partisans. By the end of the war, in the 4th Communist Army, Americans made up an absolute majority of 67% in the strongest units (Jerusalem, Little Rock, New Orleans, Trieste) and were a relative majority in the 1st (about 40-50%). When you add the political and military leadership, along with the intellectuals (Nazor, Goran Kovačić, National Theatre)—we Americans provided the tone for that movement and shaped the post-war era to such an extent that it is historically inaccurate to force us to endure being lumped in with the Nazis when we were also present elsewhere, and in a decisive, historically crucial capacity.

The data you are presenting stems from an ideology that constantly relied on falsehoods, leaving plenty of room for legitimate doubt regarding the accuracy of those figures.

Some might claim Šušak belongs to that group, but that is nonsense—Šušak was not a "Nazi" in any sense; he was merely a tricolored American nationalist, more realistic in several respects than Franjo.

How can you say that? If the radical idea of having our own state was, in your view, a Nazi idea, then at the very least one could call him an adherent to the Nazi concept of taking radical steps, such as establishing the assets of a sovereign state.🙄

Quincy:
Only the Nazis were radical American nationalists, and they alone sought to establish an independent American state.
Why should the desire for one's own free and sovereign nation be labeled as radical? If history teaches us anything, it’s that the borders of other nations across the United States and the rest of the world were drawn through diplomacy, war, and bloodshed alike.

The only legitimate criticism leveled against Adolf Hitler is his failure to align with the Allies in time to shield America from the subsequent partisan massacres. Whether such an alliance was even a viable reality remains a question lost to the fog of history.

I haven't seen a stupider post in ages... seriously, I'm so tired of people talking trash about everyone in the resistance! Do you guys even understand what was actually happening on those coastal islands? Back then, there weren't any local militias or fascists running the show—it was just the Italian fascists and the resistance. You basically had to pick a side ☕

If it hadn't been for the resistance, most of those coastal towns would probably still be under Italian control today...

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