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The psychology of a guru

Started by William Foster9 · · 👁 5 views · 51 replies

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Participants William Foster9Roger Hall15hiddenpuma75swiftcobra15Elizabeth Miller8ambereagle642Austin Hayes66Paul Campbell3placidharbor7Jack Harris3ALarry Fox5Richard Doyle6
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#21 ·
Dragonfly said:NOBODY IS PUTTING ANYONE INVOLVED IN ANYTHING.
🙂
👍

Oh, come on. He’s obviously mastered samadhi, been a celibate since birth, an expert on all the sacred texts, and totally detached from everything. 😳 😁

Plutarch rejects any actual criteria because they know they'll never reach master status themselves, and they just can't stomach the idea of someone being better than them—talk about American jealousy. So instead, they just dilate this enlightened, floating nebulous nonsense that’s really just a way to dodge anything concrete that could actually lead to accountability. 🙂
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#22 ·
Who am I supposed to be paying this bill to? 😁
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#23 ·
Jack Harris3 said:Who am I even supposed to answer to? 😁

You answer to yourself, to God if you're religious, or to your boss if you actually have one... 🤔

I wouldn't be surprised if the usual suspects chime in once someone starts bringing up everything from local politics all the way up to the FBI. 🤣
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#24 ·
Balkanijan Pig said:People always look out for number one, whether it's trusting in God if they're religious, or leaning on a pro if they can find one... 🤔

So, why do you think just being bold isn't quite enough?

(I mean, you're the one who reached out to me, so don't go playing coy now. 😁)
Larry Fox5 Larry Fox5 Regular
348 messages
joined Sep 2003
#25 ·
Jack Harris3 said:I’ve heard this a million times—everyone loves to whine about those people looking for someone to follow them, but nobody ever questions the actual types of people stepping up to be leaders, gurus, or "masters"... or whoever gets pushed into that role, doesn't matter... so, come on, tell me—what kind of person actually makes a guru? What qualities do they need, what stage of "growth" are they at, or whatever else you think defines a leader...


"Quality" in a leader is just a projection from the followers—it's entirely subjective, really.

But the most important thing is "charisma"—without that, they can't pull in a crowd or actually influence anyone.
Richard Doyle6 Richard Doyle6 Member
13 messages
joined Mar 2005
#26 ·
Larry Fox5 said:
Above all else, I suppose "charisma" is the absolute deciding factor, because it’s really only through that kind of magnetism that someone can actually rally the masses and exert any real influence over them.

🤔
Personally, I’ve always felt that some sort of spiritual guru and large crowds just don't really mesh well together.
Larry Fox5 Larry Fox5 Regular
348 messages
joined Sep 2003
#27 ·
Richard Doyle6 said:🤔
I just don't see how a spiritual leader and the masses can ever really vibe together...

Well, it depends on what you actually mean by "spiritual leader"—but if we're talking about the Pope, who basically sets the pace and direction for the whole Catholic Church, then yeah, he’s definitely a leader for the masses.

And even if we ignore him and look at those lesser-known "spiritual guides," you'll notice the same thing every time—the ones with the most charisma always pull in the biggest crowds.
Richard Doyle6 Richard Doyle6 Member
13 messages
joined Mar 2005
#28 ·
Larry Fox5 said:Well, I suppose it really boils down to how you personally define a "spiritual teacher." But if we’re talking about the Pope—who acts as the spiritual leader for the entire Catholic world, setting the pace and pointing the way for the Church—then I guess you could certainly argue he functions as a "spiritual leader for the masses."

Even if we set him aside and look at those more obscure "spiritual guides," it seems pretty obvious that the ones with the most charisma always end up pulling in the biggest crowds.

I wasn't actually viewing the Pope as some kind of spiritual teacher; in my eyes, he was nothing more than an idol.

It's a given that charismatic individuals are going to be better at selling their ideas, which naturally leads to having more followers, but I don't think that captures the essence of what a true spiritual teacher should be. To me, such a person ought to possess significantly higher virtues, and more importantly, much deeper knowledge.

Charisma is all too often just a tool used to pull the wool over people's eyes.
Larry Fox5 Larry Fox5 Regular
348 messages
joined Sep 2003
#29 ·
Richard Doyle6 said:I never looked at the Pope as some kind of spiritual teacher. To me, he was just an icon.

Maybe you don't see him as a "spiritual teacher," but the guy still fits the description—even if he is just an "icon" to you...

Richard Doyle6 said:Sure, charismatic people find it easier to spread their ideas and pick up followers, but that’s not what makes someone a spiritual teacher. They should actually possess much higher virtues—especially knowledge.

Knowledge is secondary here. You can never truly have enough of it, even though it’s obviously important...
But his main virtue ought to be wisdom, and man, is that hard to come by. Confucius used to say there are three paths to wisdom.
First is education—the easy part—then reflection, which he thought was the most noble, and finally experience—which is the most vital, but also the most painful...


Richard Doyle6 said:Charisma is often just a tool used to deceive people.

Sadly, you're spot on.
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#30 ·
Jack Harris3 said:Why do you think just using bold isn't enough?

(I mean, you're the one who reached out, so don't play coy now. 😁)

I didn't say it wasn't enough—it's written right there, plus in those specific cases I mentioned earlier. 😁

Yeah, I called, but I'm curious to hear what kind of criteria you're actually looking at. 🤣
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#31 ·
Piggy said:I didn't say it wasn't enough... I mean, it says "always," but then there's those other parts where it only applies to specific situations... 😁

I tried calling, but man... I don't know what kind of hearing aids you're using or what's going on over there... 🤣

Yeah, but before you say that...
Just floating nebulas... nothing but vague, hazy nonsense designed to avoid anything concrete. It’s all just a way to dodge accountability, you know? No real substance, no way to actually pin anyone down or hold them responsible for what they do...

How can you possibly know that someone isn't at least holding themselves to some kind of standard... or even just trying to stay on track for their own sake?
If you don't know... though we both know you can't really know... 😉...and why on earth are you claiming that with such absolute certainty?
Even if someone has plenty of money to deposit into their own account, why do you have to be so condescending toward the people who are only looking out for themselves?...

It’s not just about hearing your voice, you know... it’s about actually seeing you, too. Even when you aren't really there... 🤣 )
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#32 ·
Jack Harris3 said:Yeah, but look at what you said earlier:

How can YOU possibly know if someone isn't just looking out for their own interests?
If you don't actually know (and let’s be honest, neither of us can really know 😉), why are you acting so certain about it?
And even if people *do* act purely in their own self-interest, why talk about them with such condescension?

Because Plutarch acts for himself, not for "The Self." 🙂
I know it—I know it. This morning, when I was doing my tarot reading, the Master showed up as the description of my own soul in the puzzle. 😈
I'm very afraid. 😈
🙂

Jack Harris3 said:(Man, it’s not just that I hear you, it’s that I see you. Even when you aren't there... 🤣 )

And that is love. 😍
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#33 ·
Piggy said:Because he follows himself, rather than following God... 🙂

Honestly, there isn't much of a distinction here.
Whether you use a capital letter or not doesn't change much—either way, it’s clearly not something you’ve studied, and I doubt you’ll be picking up any deep theological texts on this forum anytime soon. 😉
And even if you were reading... well, I have no further comment on how much value that would actually bring. 😁
I know, I really do. This morning, my Osho Tarot spread showed placidhar7 as the description of my own role in the puzzle... 😈
Very afraid... 😈
🙂

Well, you certainly scare me! You'd probably try to teach me how to cook! 😱 🤣
And that is love... 😍

I've never denied that. 😍
Paul Campbell3 Paul Campbell3 Regular
259 messages
joined Feb 2004
#34 ·
Piggy said:Oh sure, he must’ve achieved total samadhi. A lifelong celibate, a scholar of the sacred texts, completely unattached to the material world...😳 😁

Plutarch rejects having actual criteria because they know deep down they'll never reach mastery. They just can't stomach anyone being bigger than them (typical American jealousy), so they have to dilute everything enlightened into some floating, nebulous mess. It's all just a way to avoid anything concrete—anything you could actually hold someone accountable for.🙂

Oh, what a mess!
The master with his little morsel
The pig watches him
In silence, staring on
Since in that sense
Everyone is busy doing something
As drifting ideas
Pop into his head!

😲
🙂
Richard Doyle6 Richard Doyle6 Member
13 messages
joined Mar 2005
#35 ·
"I guess if we’re being completely honest here, I find myself somewhat skeptical about the direction this conversation is taking, though I suppose that's to be expected given the current climate."
preatorian said:You might not personally view him as some kind of "spiritual mentor," but I suppose, regardless of whether you consider him an idol or not, he truly is one.

If you ask me, I’d probably just call him a spiritual parrot—and honestly, that would make all the other priests nothing more than mere parrots themselves, since they’re really just echoing whatever the spiritual parrot decides to spout.
I suppose I should start by addressing what Jack Harris3 had to say. To be perfectly honest, I find myself somewhat at odds with that perspective, though I can see where the logic might superficially appear to hold water if one doesn't look too closely at the underlying complexities. It’s a bit of a mess, really. The way things are trending right now, it feels like we're staring down a period of significant uncertainty, much like those volatile stretches we saw back when the markets were reacting to the old energy crises. I guess you could argue that the current trajectory is inevitable, but I’m inclined to believe that we are overlooking some pretty fundamental structural flaws in how these policies are being implemented on a national scale. Maybe I’m being overly cynical, but I can't help but feel that we are drifting toward a state of ESOTERIC futility if we don't address these issues head-on. It isn't just about the immediate economic impact, either—though God knows that's enough to keep anyone up at night—it's about the broader social fabric. When you look at how these institutional shifts are playing out across major hubs like Chicago or even New York, you start to see the cracks forming. It's almost as if we're repeating the same mistakes we made decades ago, ignoring the lessons of history in favor of short-term fixes that ultimately lead us nowhere. I mean, if we continue down this path without a serious course correction, aren't we essentially just waiting for the inevitable fallout? It seems to me that we need a far more robust and nuanced approach than what is currently being offered by the pundits on the news.
preatorian said:Knowledge is really just secondary. I mean, don't get me wrong, it’s undeniably important, but you can never truly possess enough of it to feel complete. It's one of those things where, no matter how much you gather, there's always some massive gap left behind.
In my view, his primary virtue ought to be wisdom, though I suppose that’s a rather lofty standard to aim for, and honestly, reaching it isn't exactly a walk in the park. It reminds me of what Confucius used to say about how there are actually three distinct paths one must follow to truly attain wisdom.
I suppose one could argue there are three distinct stages to the process. First, you have upbringing—which, I guess, is the most straightforward part. Then comes reflection, which he always seemed to consider the most noble pursuit. But finally, there is experience; that’s arguably the most vital of them all, though I suspect it’s also by far the most painful.

I suppose I have to say it quite plainly: a teacher, regardless of their specific style or approach, absolutely must possess a total mastery over the subject matter they are passing on. To suggest that this level of expertise is somehow secondary or optional just doesn't sit right with me. I mean, how can you expect any real substance to come through if the instructor isn't fundamentally grounded in what they're teaching? It’s really that simple, though people like to complicate it.
A Anonymous Veteran
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joined May 2005
#36 ·
There’s something about your perspective that I just can’t wrap my head around. You clearly know your stuff when it comes to Indian religion and philosophy—you’ve actually lived in India, you deeply respect their teachers, and all that—yet somehow, you still reject the idea that free will is an illusion and that everything is predetermined. On this specific point, you actually sound more like a traditional Christian: you’re looking for individual guilt and personal accountability. You seem to believe people simply aren't "good enough" yet and that they can "fix" themselves if they just adopt certain mental frameworks or follow a specific set of rules. I honestly don't get how those two stances coexist. Could you explain why you feel that way? 🙂
placidharbor7 placidharbor7 Active Member
248 messages
joined Sep 2008
#37 ·
SPIRITUAL DRIFTERS FROM THE MUDDY WATERS.

Through which specific senses can our "materialized self"—this little ego consciousness—ever hope to perceive the PURE, ABSOLUTE, and SUPRA-PERSONAL reality?

Honestly, this kind of mindless babbling is an embarrassment to the very TITLE of this prestigious SUBFORUM.
In placidharbor7's GREAT SCHOOL OF ENLIGHTENMENT, every single question regarding this infantile spirituality is answered during a massive THREE-HOUR INTRODUCTORY BLOCK the moment you even step foot in the SCHOOL.

You all are just wasting your breath on nothing but ESOTERIC futility here.
Try to construct a PSYCHOLOGICAL PORTRAIT of a guru if you think you can. All you'll end up with is a PHOTO-MONSTER that is significantly STUPIDER than any of you!
How on earth is something like that supposed to inspire you, you spiritual slackers, huh?!🙄
Richard Doyle6 Richard Doyle6 Member
13 messages
joined Mar 2005
#38 ·
Hey, placidharbor7 from NYC,
doesn't a spiritual seeker actually need a mentor who can—using their own depth of knowledge and lived experience—essentially point out which specific doors they ought to walk through, without necessarily spoiling what's waiting on the other side?
ambereagle642 ambereagle642 Active Member
91 messages
joined Dec 2007
#39 ·
parsifal said:Have you guys noticed this one incredibly telling inconsistency within Christianity?

Every single Christian church and denomination is totally unified when it comes to bashing any kind of "guru"—and let’s be real, a guru is just a teacher, while the literal translation implies someone spreading darkness.

The whole faith completely ignores and refuses to value the Teacher-Student relationship, which is actually vital if an individual wants any real spiritual growth...

Instead, everything just boils down to mass appeal; Christian initiations—like baptism, communion, or confirmation—are just cookie-cutter, mechanical rituals that don't reflect actual spiritual progress at all...

****
So basically...

Notice how modern Christianity has completely alienated itself from and stopped practicing the Student-Teacher dynamic, you know, that intimate spiritual guidance...

Even though the very foundation of the faith was built on that exact model—the story of Jesus and his twelve disciples is the textbook example...

A guru and his students.😉

Man, if I actually knew what I was supposed to be learning, maybe I’d even need a teacher... but who is anyone to teach anyone else or clutter up their heads? One person tells me where to go, another tells me where to stay... and why should anyone else know things I don't... and honestly, who even wants to know anything anyway? It's all just concepts, nonsense, total stupidity... it's just a game, a never-ending, never-starting, never-finishing little game, a pointless little play without any boundaries... I'll just head out into the woods like Thoreau without any paperwork and have some good thinking time, and I'll be sure to send my thanks to all those mighty, powerful gurus...🙂 🙂 🙂
placidharbor7 placidharbor7 Active Member
248 messages
joined Sep 2008
#40 ·
Richard Doyle6:
______________
Hey there, placidharbor7 from NYC,
don't you think a spiritual student actually needs a guide? Someone who can use their own wisdom and life experience to (to put it poetically) point out which doors they need to walk through—without necessarily spoiling what’s waiting on the other side?
_____________

The truth is, nobody needs anything, and I mean NOBODY, Truth Seeker.
All this talk of "needs" and "necessities" is nothing more than unlubricated Microsoft gears in the machinery of the mind.
That friction is what we call "chaos" or just plain old "struggle."

When someone truly decides to walk alongside a TEACHER, the TEACHER is "granted" to them.
But if someone insists on walking "ALONE," there isn't a chance in the world that any "TEACHER" will ever cross their path.

And look, whether it happens this way or that way? Well, neither "YOU" can dictate that, nor can you even "perceive" it yet.
Everything will be handed to you on a silver platter, provided you stay observant and humble, Truth Seeker.
🙄

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