CheckEmoji Community · the emoji forum
🏠 Home 🆕 What's new ❓ Unanswered 🔥 Popular 📡 RSS Members 👥 0 online
log in · register
Home › Society › Spirituality › Belonging, Appearance, Sacrifice?

Belonging, Appearance, Sacrifice?

Started by swiftcobra15 · · 👁 5 views · 50 replies

📡 Subscribe to replies

Participants swiftcobra15hollowviper72Jack Harris3Roger Hall15Alexander WatsonPaul Campbell3velvetpilot212Brian Doyle86nimblecobra79Alexander Parker69Ryan Wilson2mistybison
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#1 ·
Just wanted to add my two cents to this colorful discussion by cross-posting something I wrote on a movie forum where it didn't really get much traction:

I haven't actually seen the first one, but I thought this movie was fantastic. To me, it carries at least four major messages:

IT DOESN'T MATTER:

a) what race or kind of person you are,
b) what social class or status you come from,
c) what you look like,
it's all about who you ARE deep down.

It also offers such a beautiful depiction of what SACRIFICE truly means:
The "King" makes a sacrifice, shedding his human appearance to embrace his TRUE (frog) self.
Essentially, he sacrifices the illusion (the false persona) to gain the truth (his real identity).
Of course, most people would rather cling to a lie than face the truth.

I'm really hoping to see some thoughts on that idea of sacrifice. 😉
hollowviper72 hollowviper72 Regular
268 messages
joined May 2004
#2 ·
So, you're telling me Shrek 2 is basically just a thematic mirror of Shrek 1? Man... I really went in expecting them to push the envelope and bring something totally fresh to the table.

But honestly, looking at it through a different lens—in today's world, it feels like everyone is becoming increasingly obsessed with outward appearances and those shallow first impressions... there's just less and less interest in actually seeing people for who they truly are. It makes you wonder—under the crushing weight of all those masks we wear, how much longer can a human face actually survive..?
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#3 ·
swiftcobra15 said:I’m talking about true, voluntary self-sacrifice here. Nobody just "reflexively" jumps in front of a bullet without even thinking about the fact they won't survive the impact.

But sometimes you *do* jump on pure instinct, without a single thought other than needing to save someone else. 😁
Very few people would actually step up in a life-or-death moment if they had enough time to sit there and weigh the consequences for themselves... 😁
...that he sacrificed his physical body so that he could live freely in spirit.

Personally, I’d say he just neglected the physical side of things. 😁
Or maybe he just risked it all for what he believed in. To me, that doesn't feel like "sacrifice" so much as just being incredibly consistent with your principles—whatever the cost, even if it means losing your head... 😁

It seems like we're using the same word to describe two totally different concepts, which is probably why we're bumping heads here...
Roger Hall15 Roger Hall15 Active Member
107 messages
joined Jul 2003
#4 ·
hollowviper72 said:Me? Well, they’d have to catch me first. 😛

I wonder if that dread of our own fleeting existence stems from some deep-seated memory of all the things we let slip away—those versions of ourselves that never quite materialized because they ended up suffocated under the weight of the shallow masks we build for the world.

Is it tempting? Only to people who haven't actually stopped to calculate the cost. Hyuuuumaaaans. 😉 The fallout has always been pretty much irrational...

I didn't mean that literally. 🙄 Unless you're holding something back? 😬

I can't say for sure if it comes from there or if it was already sitting there waiting,😁 but fear is definitely the driving force here, big time. 😉

Most people find it attractive. They don't think about it because—maybe—they just can't. If you've ever felt fear, and I mean the kind where you're absolutely shitless, then you understand how much power it carries. Sometimes it just paralyzes a person. People will go looking for a lie if a truth isn't handed to them on a silver platter.
Freedom is one of those illusions.
What we call freedom isn't even close to the real thing. 😉
Alexander Watson Alexander Watson Member
45 messages
joined Jul 2004
#5 ·
swiftcobra15 said:Isn't that the core of any sacrifice? Letting go of the lie to return to what is true.

So, following movie logic here...
If someone gives up their life for you—making a "sacrifice" because they're the one dying instead of you—does that suddenly mean they stop being a fake person?

It’s a pretty lovely sentiment to toss at someone who just died for you, I suppose.

A sacrifice certainly has an essence, but it isn't the one you're talking about.
Alexander Watson Alexander Watson Member
45 messages
joined Jul 2004
#6 ·
swiftcobra15 said:IT DOESN'T MATTER:

a) what race or ethnicity you belong to
b) what social class you come from
c) what you look like,
it’s only about who you ARE.


a) You're head over heels for an amazing girl. You love her endlessly. But her father is a Black man who absolutely despises white people. Do you even stand a chance?

b) You finally want to take your fiancée out to a fancy restaurant. Maybe she wants it, maybe you do, or maybe there's some other reason entirely. But you're broke. She needs a formal dress, you need a tuxedo. And then there's the bill. It would certainly help to be part of the wealthy elite, wouldn't it?

c) There's a woman who has dreamed of being a TV news anchor her entire life. But she isn't conventionally attractive. She's plain and has incredibly pale skin. Is any major network actually going to hire her?

Maybe we're just dreamers, you and I...
But we both know that's not how this world works.
So next time you make a post like this, please clarify that it's just your personal opinion and has nothing to do with reality.
Paul Campbell3 Paul Campbell3 Regular
259 messages
joined Feb 2004
#7 ·
hollowviper72 said:So Shrek 2 is basically just a carbon copy of Shrek 1 in terms of its message? Man. I really thought they’d come up with something fresh.

Yeah, look at the world today—everyone is obsessed with appearances and shallow impressions. People don't bother seeing anyone for who they actually are anymore. How long can a human face even survive under the weight of all those masks?

And what do you mean "who people are"? Does anyone actually know themselves, let alone anyone else?
I honestly have no clue what you're trying to get at here.
Besides, my take on Shrek is that his kiss was what actually woke up that part of the princess that matched his own true essence.
If some perfect prince had kissed her, she would've just stayed that superficial beauty from the beginning.
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#8 ·
swiftcobra15 said:It’s such a beautiful illustration of what sacrifice actually means:
The "King" sacrifices himself, shedding his human appearance to embrace his TRUE (froggy) form.
So, he’s sacrificing the illusion—that false persona—to gain the truth, his actual self.
Of course, most people would much rather cling to a lie than face the truth...

I'm looking forward to seeing your thoughts, specifically on the idea of sacrifice. 😉

I haven't watched that crap and honestly don't plan to (the commercials alone were stupid enough to make me lose money), so I won't talk about the movie itself, just that snippet you shared.

What exactly is the king sacrificing to whom?
If I'm following you, he’s losing his old self to gain his new self. He's essentially just evolving...
Can something you do entirely for your own sake even be called a sacrifice? Especially when you're just ditching something worse to get something better?

Like one of our more distinguished forum regulars once put it—sacrifice is basically a transaction, and I have to agree with him there. If I sacrifice something to God, or to you, or to anyone else, I'm not just doing it for the hell of it. There's always an exchange involved.
But can a person really strike a deal with themselves? 😁
hollowviper72 hollowviper72 Regular
268 messages
joined May 2004
#9 ·
Paul Campbell3 said:What kind of people are we even talking about here? And how much can anyone actually know about who someone really is?
I’m not quite sure I follow your point there.
Beyond that, I got the impression from watching Shrek that it was his kiss that actually awakened that part of the princess which mirrors his own essence.
If she had been kissed by some stereotypical prince, she would have just remained that superficial, pretty girl she was at the start.

Well, yeah... it's about love's true form. Shrek loved her for what she actually was deep down—though, let's be honest, we all saw what that "soul" looked like, given that whole mess with the spiderweb wool and the frog bubble thing.
Had a prince kissed her, she would've stayed just another pretty face, because a prince would have only ever seen the surface level version of her.

Maybe "love's true form" could also be interpreted as "true love's form"... because real love only happens when you embrace someone entirely, flaws and all.

And honestly, everyone knows who they are and what they're made of... the issue is whether they'll actually look into their own souls or if they'll just look away from their true essence. Not everyone is comfortable with themselves. That's where this whole need for masks comes from.
Roger Hall15 Roger Hall15 Active Member
107 messages
joined Jul 2003
#10 ·
hollowviper72 said:Everyone knows exactly who they are deep down, really... the only issue is whether they actually have the guts to look themselves in the eye and face their own core. Not everyone is happy with what they find there, which is pretty much why people feel this constant need to put on masks and play parts.

They really ought to know, I suppose; you’d think by now it would be common sense to understand your own nature. 😬

I mean, how is someone supposed to feel satisfied when they're actively avoiding their true self? (Though, honestly, some people manage it quite well.) Those masks we wear are certainly more appealing and feel a lot more human, providing a pretty solid foundation for feeling content. It's superficial, sure, but when it comes to our own lives, who really cares about being deep? 😢
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#11 ·
Jack Harris3 said:I haven't seen that garbage, and I have no intention of watching it (

As far as I'm concerned, he loses his fake persona and gains his true self. He’s essentially just evolving.
😁

😁 You might not have watched it, but you certainly explained it!
The "king" jumped in front of Shrek when the wicked fairy godmother swung her wand (he jumped in front of a bullet😉 ) and reverted back to his "true" (frog) form. So, he sacrificed himself (for Shrek?) and was no longer a fake human, but a real frog. He gave up his false identity to gain his true one.
Isn't that the essence of any sacrifice: letting go of the lie to return to the truth?

What did Jesus "sacrifice," and what did He gain?
hollowviper72 hollowviper72 Regular
268 messages
joined May 2004
#12 ·
Roger Hall15 said:They really ought to know. Honestly, you’d think it would be common sense by now. 😬

How can someone who constantly turns away from their own true essence ever feel fulfilled? (And let's be real, some people find plenty of satisfaction there.) Masks are seductive—they feel more human, more approachable—and they provide a pretty solid foundation for a superficial kind of happiness. It's shallow, sure, but who actually cares when it's our own lives we're playing with? 😢

We can keep kidding ourselves until tomorrow comes, but the truth doesn't change: if you're satisfied with a mask, you're living a surface-level existence. People love to say "ignorance is bliss," but let's call it what it is—that only works for people who lack the strength or the sheer willpower to face reality. And honestly? Who cares... except for us. It doesn't matter if everyone else is content with a hollow, performative way of being. What matters is whether *we* can live like that. Personally, I can't. That's why I strip those masks away the second I feel them starting to settle on me. I want to live this life as my actual self, not just some "figment of imagination." Theories and philosophical debates aside, this life is the only one we are absolutely certain we have. We might as well try to live it with some actual freedom...
Jack Harris3 Jack Harris3 Regular
451 messages
joined Dec 2002
#13 ·
swiftcobra15 said:😁 She hasn't even seen it, yet she's talking about it like an expert...

My comment is a direct response to what you wrote. There isn't really any other way to read it... 😛
You could've just laid out the whole scene from the start so we weren't left guessing... 😁
The King actually jumped right in front of Shrek when that wicked Fairy Godmother swung her wand... he basically took a bullet for him...😉 So, he basically went back to his "true" self... you know, that froggy persona. He made this huge sacrifice—for Shrek, I guess?—just to stop pretending to be someone he wasn't. He shed that fake identity and finally embraced who he really was deep down. A real frog at last...
Isn't that just the core of every sacrifice... letting go of the lies and finally finding your way back to the truth...

So, what exactly did Jesus "sacrifice," and what was the payoff on the other side?... It’s one of those big, heavy questions that really makes you stop and think for a second... I mean, if you look at it from a certain angle, the cost seems almost impossible to wrap your head around... He gave up everything, didn't he?... His physical life, his comfort, even his connection to the earthly realm... It was all laid out there on the line... And yet, when you weigh that against what was gained... the idea of reconciling everything with God... it changes the whole equation... It's hard to put into words without getting lost in the weeds, but it's definitely worth pondering...

At its core, every single victim is just being traded like a commodity... just like I said before... 😁
It’s always been that way... people sacrificing virgins just to keep some monster from tearing the rest of the village apart, or offering up livestock hoping God might show a little mercy... others giving up maidens just to beg for rain. It’s always a trade-off... you give one thing up just to get something else back...

Based on the scene as it's described... I don't really see them as a victim... though again, I'm just going by the description provided... 😁It’s just... you know, it becomes this automatic reflex. You don't even think about it. It’s just that split second where you see someone in trouble and you move... just trying to help someone out of danger...
It’s just instinct, really... if you see a kid fall into the water, you don't stop to run a mental checklist of the risks or worry about whether you might drown too... you just jump. You don't even think about it... you just move...

Sacrifice isn't some kind of knee-jerk reaction... it doesn't just happen on autopilot. It’s a conscious choice. A deliberate, voluntary decision made with a clear head and a steady heart... you have to go into it knowing exactly what it costs. 😁

So, I was thinking about this one version of the story where Jesus didn't actually sacrifice anything... and honestly, he didn't really gain anything either... just an interesting way to look at it...
If we’re really looking at the Bible, it says right there that he was sent to preach, live his life, and die the way he died, doesn't it? When you lay it out like that, it almost feels like God sacrificed him to Himself... which honestly seems like a massive waste of time. I mean, if there's only one God, who is He even trying to justify anything to? Why would He need this whole grand production just to suddenly flip the script... and then there's the whole idea that Jesus supposedly died for human sins. Just so people could be forgiven, so the resurrection thing actually works, blah blah blah...
It’s like... couldn't God have just figured out a way to fix things without sending him straight into the jaws of death? I mean, seriously... what gives...

Another way to look at it is that Jesus was just a total genius who had a knack for spotting all the rot within the Jewish community back then. He saw what was going on and, like any true revolutionary, decided he had to change things up. He called out the religious leaders, flipped their laws on their head, and preached that everyone has an equal shot with God... rather than just some "chosen" few getting all the perks...
He just stuck to his guns until the very end... died for what he believed in, through and through...

Man, thank goodness there isn't any damage... 😁
Roger Hall15 Roger Hall15 Active Member
107 messages
joined Jul 2003
#14 ·
hollowviper72 said:You can try to pull the wool over my eyes until the sun comes up if you really want to, but the reality of the situation doesn't change—anyone who’s perfectly content just staring at the mask is nothing more than a superficial soul. People love to lean on that old "ignorance is bliss" cliché, but honestly, that only works for the folks who lack the backbone or the actual desire to uncover the truth. Not that it matters much in the grand scheme of things, because at the end of the day, nobody cares about any of this except for us.

It really doesn't matter whether everyone else is content just skating by on a superficial existence, because what actually matters is whether we can manage that ourselves. Personally, I just can't do it. That’s why I make it a point to strip away the masks the second I feel them starting to settle on me, because I have this deep-seated need to live this life as my actual self, rather than some curated figment of someone's imagination. Stories and theories aside, this life is the only one we can be certain we actually possess, so it seems only logical that we should at least try to live it with a sense of genuine freedom.

Most people. 😢
It all feels a bit too seductive, honestly, to suggest that we should just offer ourselves up for some kind of voluntary "ascent" or "descent" into the essence of things—you know, this whole idea of stripping away our masks and tossing aside our identities as if it were easy. It’s asking for a true sacrifice. And to be perfectly honest, I really do get those people who just don't have the strength or the willpower to go through with it. I truly do.

😬 No, no, no. 🙂
You’re out there doing something even worse. 😲
You’re just stripping away everyone else's masks. 😉 It’s really just a side effect, honestly. 😁 And that’s really just part of the whole sacrifice narrative, isn't it? Because, let's be honest, you're going to end up getting screwed over on a regular basis anyway. 😬
But honestly, you can't really help yourself, can you? It’s just how you're wired, deeper than anything else, and there isn't much anyone can do about it.
I can't really get into the weeds of explaining this any further right now, though I'm hoping you're following my train of thought. 🙂
velvetpilot212 velvetpilot212 Active Member
102 messages
joined Aug 2004
#15 ·
Everyone keeps harping on about how everyone nowadays is just playing a part, wearing masks, and pretending to be someone they aren't.
To me, it feels like most people today can't even begin to grasp what a human being actually is, or what we ought to be. I guess it’s all thanks to those endless—and if you ask me, totally shallow—"spiritual lessons" that get shoved down our throats everywhere we turn. It's like pouring vinegar over a pepper until it turns sour. I’m sure some genius will chime in and point out how delicious that sour pepper is now... whatever.
swiftcobra15 swiftcobra15 RegularOP
305 messages
joined Dec 2002
#16 ·
Jack Harris3 said:Sacrifice always involves an exchange—giving one thing up to gain another.

A true sacrifice isn't some knee-jerk reaction; it’s a conscious, voluntary choice made with intention. 😁

In my view, there's a version of the story where Jesus didn't actually sacrifice anything, nor did He gain anything from it.

Another way to look at it is that Jesus was simply a brilliant visionary who recognized the deep flaws within the Jewish community of His time and, like any true revolutionary, decided to change them.

I am specifically talking about purely voluntary sacrifice. Nobody jumps in front of a bullet "reflexively," thinking they'll somehow walk away from the impact.

You could argue that Jesus sacrificed nothing if you view Him as a highly evolved spiritual being, but as an unlearned atheist—or more accurately, an agnostic—I tend to simplify things: He gave up His physical body to live fully in Spirit.

In the East, they might say He liberated Himself from the flesh and the cycle of rebirth. But because "Christians" focus almost exclusively on the physical body (believing in a bodily resurrection, even for those torn apart by lions), they've turned the whole concept into a bit of a circus. 😉
hollowviper72 hollowviper72 Regular
268 messages
joined May 2004
#17 ·
Roger Hall15 said: 😬 Oh, absolutely not. 🙂
You’re actually making things much worse. 😲
By tearing down everyone else's masks, 😉 you're just triggering a side effect 😁 that falls right under the umbrella of sacrifice—mostly because you're going to end up getting kicked hard in the teeth for it. 😬


Me? Well, they'd have to catch me first. 😛

It all feels far too seductive to offer an "ascent" or a "descent" into pure nutrition—to do it voluntarily, to strip away those masks, to discard this or that. A true sacrifice. Honestly, I can empathize with those who lack both the strength and the will. I truly do.

I sympathize with them, certainly—but I don't understand them. Because, much like anything involving masks, that allure is nothing more than a temporary, superficial thing. It passes... and then what is left for a person to do at the twilight of their days, once they realize that not a single mask can shield them from the ultimate fate of all mortals? Death hast no masks. Does that fear of our own transience stem from some deep-seated memory of missed opportunities and the ghosts of people we never became, all stifled beneath the trivial masks of our own making?

People say that freedom and security aren't meant to coexist. Masks provide us with security—they ensure the world doesn't get a look at our "naked souls," as the saying goes. But with them, we lose our freedom, because every mask—just like every lie, really—requires constant, meticulous maintenance. We eventually dwindle down into master actors who aren't actually living their own lives...

Seductive? Only to those who haven't even begun to contemplate the cost. Hyuuuumaaaans. 😉 The consequences have always been utterly irrational...

Jack Harris3:

Quote:
Virgins were sacrificed to keep monsters from terrorizing the rest of the village, animals were offered so God might show mercy, and other maidens were given to God to bring the rain...
If I may offer a tiny digression—I personally think the ancient custom of "offering" virgins to dragons is quite worthy of respect and should be reinstated as soon as possible. 😬
Brian Doyle86 Brian Doyle86 Member
19 messages
joined Jan 2003
#18 ·
Alexander Watson said:a) You're head over heels for an amazing girl. You love her endlessly. But her father is a Black man who hates white people. Do you even stand a chance?

b) You finally decide to take your fiancée out to a fancy restaurant. Maybe she wants it, maybe you do, or maybe there's some other reason entirely. But you're broke. She needs a formal dress, you need a tuxedo. Then there's the bill. It would be nice to belong to the upper class, wouldn't it?

c) This girl has dreamed of being a TV news anchor her entire life. But she isn't exactly a looker. She's thin and has terrible skin. Will any network actually hire her?

a) If she’s normal and hasn't inherited her father's prejudices, you have a shot.
b) No. It's easier and nicer to just skip it. You can't buy love anyway.
c) She will, provided she has actual talent. If she's eloquent, knows her literature and philosophy, communicates well, and has a good voice, she'll make it. Skin issues are easy to fix with a little help. Do you honestly think every news anchor is a supermodel when they wake up? Makeup works wonders. 😉
p.s. let's not confuse a real anchor with a teleprompter reader. 😁
nimblecobra79 nimblecobra79 Member
40 messages
joined Jun 2003
#19 ·
Jack Harris3 said:In one version of the story, Jesus didn't actually sacrifice anything—nor did he gain anything.
If we’re going strictly by the Bible, it clearly states he was sent to preach, live his life, and die the way he died, right? So it looks like God just sacrificed him to Himself—which is a total joke because if there's only one God, he doesn't need some grand theatrical performance just to justify things. And then there's this whole idea that Jesus supposedly died for human sins. Like, for them to be forgiven or for the resurrection to even work, blah blah blah...
As if God couldn't have figured it out without sending His own son to die. Seriously.

No, God didn't just sacrifice him to Himself. Based on fundamental laws—the kind God built into the very fabric of existence since He is in everything—there's action and reaction. Every bad deed carries a consequence. That’s why Jesus, being perfectly pure, could nullify our mistakes through his sacrifice. It's how we break those endless cycles and move forward.
Anyone can sacrifice themselves for others—some people actually do it, literally taking on the suffering meant for someone else.

Change how you see God and things will start making a lot more sense to you.
😉
nimblecobra79 nimblecobra79 Member
40 messages
joined Jun 2003
#20 ·
Jack Harris3 said:[
IT DOESN'T MATTER:

a) what race or ethnicity you are
b) what social class you belong to
c) what you look like,
it’s only about who you ARE at your core.

👍 exactly

You must log in or register to reply here.

Log in Register

🔗 Similar threads