Spirituality and money

hollowpuma762 said:I mean, maybe it's because you can't exactly pull out a credit card to buy spiritual enlightenment.

Exactly. Spiritual progress only happens if God shows you mercy. But even then, a teacher guiding that journey isn't living on thin air; they still need food and water to survive.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:I get where you're coming from, but there's a massive gray area here. It's hard to judge what's actually high-quality when there are zero industry standards. Without any benchmarks or regulations, everything becomes a matter of opinion.

At the end of the day, spirituality isn't a technical skill you can just download from a lecture or master by skimming a book. Nobody's going to reach enlightenment just because they paid for some fancy Reiki workshop or a rebranding seminar. That said, having a solid guide can definitely point you in the right direction—provided that guide actually knows their stuff. And let’s be real, finding someone legitimate is tough these days when the market is flooded with "experts" who think reading two books makes them a guru. Still, everyone has to start somewhere.

A master sculptor is useless without his chisels.

People need to start with the fundamentals—things like astrology, tarot, or energy work—to build the foundation necessary to receive true spiritual wisdom from God.

Jeremy Scott said:A master sculptor is useless without his chisels.

People need to start with the fundamentals—things like astrology, tarot, or energy work—to build the foundation necessary to receive true spiritual wisdom from God.

I don't buy the idea that astrology, tarot, or bioenergy will reveal your inner secrets; they aren't even designed to point you in that direction. Think of it this way: a true "mentor" is someone who can hand you the right "keys," though finding the real deal is always a gamble. An enlightened mentor on the outside is essentially just an external version of the latent mentor you have to awaken within yourself. Of course, you don't strictly need an outside guide, but trying to navigate the journey solo is a much longer, more uncertain trek.

Jeremy Scott said:Exactly. Spiritual progress only happens if God shows you mercy. But even then, a teacher guiding that journey isn't living on thin air; they still need food and water to survive.

Real spiritual construction is carried out by a Being whose temple is still being built.
A teacher is just there to help; they aren't building someone else's house.

The teacher has a body and a mind, and they use them to earn a living. It's better that way—it keeps the transmission of spiritual knowledge from being dependent on material handouts. Plus, with a little side hustle, they can teach more and grow themselves in the process.

Jeremy Scott said:A master sculptor is useless without his chisels.

People need to start with the fundamentals—things like astrology, tarot, or energy work—to build the foundation necessary to receive true spiritual wisdom from God.

Look, an incredible stone carver isn't born that way; they become one through constant practice and applying what they learn through hard work.

First, you have to understand the fundamentals: who is the carver? What is the stone? What is the hand, the chisel, and the ultimate goal? You figure that out first... then you can go playing around with all those different techniques.

Michael Gonzalez77;

People like you are exactly why organized religion feels so broken. Look, I’m not saying these institutions don't exist, but if there were more people actually *getting* it, the church would be a legitimate solution for most folks walking through those doors. Sadly, that’s just not how it works. And honestly? It’s not even the fault of the churches themselves—it’s the people inside them. It's the crowd showing up but ignoring every basic principle, sticking to nothing but the empty rituals and formalities.

To be totally real with you, I’m lightyears behind most of the people I see at church who actually inspire me.
I mean the actual believers living right here in my neck of the woods.
The level of being filled with the Holy Spirit they have—and everything else that comes in that package, like inner peace, joy, inspiration, seeing the world through spiritual eyes, emotional maturity, strength, humility, loving your neighbor and all that jazz... man, I’d give anything to reach that level myself.

So, what is it about you that makes you feel so much better than them?

I won't even pretend I didn't notice how you basically brag about it through your own posts.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

People like you are exactly why organized religion feels so broken. Look, I’m not saying these institutions don't exist, but if there were more people actually *getting* it, the church would be a legitimate solution for most folks walking through those doors. Sadly, that’s just not how it works. And honestly? It’s not even the fault of the churches themselves—it’s the people inside them. It's the crowd showing up but ignoring every basic principle, sticking to nothing but the empty rituals and formalities.

To be totally real with you, I’m lightyears behind most of the people I see at church who actually inspire me.
I mean the actual believers living right here in my neck of the woods.
The level of being filled with the Holy Spirit they have—and everything else that comes in that package, like inner peace, joy, inspiration, seeing the world through spiritual eyes, emotional maturity, strength, humility, loving your neighbor and all that jazz... man, I’d give anything to reach that level myself.

So, what is it about you that makes you feel so much better than them?

I won't even pretend I didn't notice how you basically brag about it through your own posts.

You have to realize one thing right off the bat: you can't compare one person to another when it comes to spiritual growth. Everyone is building their own unique connection with the divine, so trying to measure yourself against someone else is completely pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world—like comparing cars or salaries—but in the realm of the spirit, it just doesn't make sense. It’s fundamentally misplaced.

Look, I don't see myself as being any better than anyone else. But let's be real—I'm not from Mars. I understand how people interact in society. Sure, you get one kind of connection at church, but that’s just one tiny slice of the world. There are countless other places where you learn how people actually live.
The struggles people face aren't just about the external circumstances—it’s more about how they process them. Honestly, the biggest hurdle isn't usually the situation itself, but that internal loop of negative thinking. It's so deeply personal that even a foundation like the Bible can't act as a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone. Sadly, there isn't just one single way to untangle that kind of mental knot.

If we could have actually pulled it off, we’d all be living as spiritually advanced beings by now, two thousand years down the line. But the problem isn't Hrostov's teaching—I honestly think that's perfection. The issue is the people who spent centuries watering down the original message and injecting all sorts of blasphemy into the sacred texts.

Look, I know that among those who claim to be spiritual leaders, there’s a certain group whose calling comes from deep within. If you’re someone who is truly open to receiving guidance—like you are—you can actually find some high-quality inspiration from them. But for everyone else? It just doesn't work that way. I’m not trying to judge anyone here; I’m just stating a plain fact. If it were different, then the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and every other major denomination would have managed to produce genuinely enlightened people by now. They’ve had centuries to get it right. We’re talking about people who are truly open, well-meaning, kind, and virtuous in every sense of the word—people without a single negative thought running through their heads, individuals filled with enough joy and empathy to even find understanding for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity would have practically created a billion saints by now.

That’s just not even close to the reality of the situation, which is exactly why I feel this way. It has nothing to do with what a church should ideally be; it’s more like how we talk about a democratic society—the concept is one thing, but the actual execution is nowhere near halfway to being realized.

If you look at the church as the ultimate pillar of spiritual growth and see the people inside as some kind of moral elite, that’s just your perspective. Personally, I see things differently. From where I stand, what people actually deal with is far more complicated than that. I'm not attacking the idea of churches or temples themselves. It’s just that human problems are incredibly layered and complex. A single sermon isn't going to magically rewire someone's brain or break the cycle of their own thought patterns. Most people are stuck in mental loops that fuel constant stress, negativity, and even chronic physical illnesses—all of which are directly tied to how they think. You can't solve that level of complexity with a one-size-fits-all message.

I truly believe that noble souls exist everywhere you look. You’ll find them within church leadership or out in the world, among those who call themselves Christians or even those who identify as atheists. They are there in Buddhism and Hinduism, found among groundbreaking scientists just as easily as among everyday working people.

I hope I managed to make my point clearly enough regarding my conclusion.

Imagine walking into a church in a city where everyone shows up without their psychological baggage—people who are truly thriving in Life, regardless of their bank accounts. People free from resentment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or uncontrolled lust; people living without constant pain or anxiety. I pray to God that every church, chapel, temple, and mosque in the world becomes a sanctuary for people like that. That’s exactly how it should be.

Jeremy Scott said:The saddest part is watching people happily shell out cash for a night at a bar, yet they balk at spending anything on their own spiritual growth.

We pour money into fleeting distractions while refusing to invest in the things that hold the secrets of eternity.

Look, plenty of people on a spiritual path hit some rough patches first—and yeah, that can definitely include things like drinking too much. People are naturally curious, they want to explore, and they want to experience everything life throws at them. It’s pretty standard. Once they realize that kind of lifestyle isn't for them, they move on.

Jeremy Scott said:A master sculptor is useless without his chisels.

People need to start with the fundamentals—things like astrology, tarot, or energy work—to build the foundation necessary to receive true spiritual wisdom from God.

There aren't any hard-and-fast rules here, trust me on this. You've got spiritual seekers who wake up through specific techniques and deep study, and then you've got others who haven't even poked around the spiritual side of things, yet suddenly they hit enlightenment out of nowhere.

Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

You missed my point entirely.
I'm saying that whether Peter is spiritually advanced or Zika is just a total fraud doesn't change the fact that my own spiritual growth is my responsibility. It doesn't depend on anyone else—my development is my duty. I am the one who has to evolve, while Peter and Zika have their own paths to walk. You can't compare my progress to anyone else's; it’s simply incomparable.
The fact that there are scammers out there pretending to be gurus or whatever—how does that affect my growth? It doesn't. At all.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

Everyone is the master of their own destiny and their own growth. Everyone has to strip away the things inside them that hold them back, primarily so they can experience what it truly means to be human as God's creation. That has nothing to do with whether someone believes in a specific doctrine or not; it's about how they think and how they act.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

I know exactly what motivates people and how they think, too. But I wasn't talking about making everyone think the same way. I was saying that Peter and Zika don't need to share the same thoughts, but they can both think in a way where they aren't filled with negativity or pitted against each other—especially not over trivialities or cultural, racial, or religious differences. To me, that's the mark of a more developed consciousness.

Psychology can try to tackle just about anything, but honestly, it rarely hits the mark when it's spread too thin. At the end of the day, it lacks the fundamental strength needed to actually fix the root cause of a problem.

The issue isn't the truth in the Bible itself. The real problem lies in those specific sections that were modified over centuries through various papal councils. There was even a chapter regarding reincarnation that used to be part of the Bible once upon a time. If we’re going to talk about Truth, we absolutely have to clarify things like cause and effect. We also need to address the concept of eternal hell. It makes no sense to claim God is Love while simultaneously suggesting He would take His most beloved followers and toss them into eternal torment. Living your life in constant fear of death or being persecuted in hell—or living in fear of God himself—is a total misconception. Even the whole concept of Satan is problematic; it all seems designed to act in direct opposition to actually living a Christ-like life.

Look, the Bible alone isn't enough for everyone to grasp and embrace the Truth about themselves. If it were, we’d be looking at literal armies of everyday saints. But here’s the thing: Truth sets you free. And when that happens, you finally become the kind of person capable of walking the path of Jesus. A person truly following Christ doesn't carry around envy, jealousy, hatred, or fear. They aren't weighed down by sadness or pity. They’re tolerant and free from those constant, systematic negative thoughts. Once you have that mental clarity—once you're no longer a slave to your emotions—you start seeing things exactly as they are. You stop focusing on what divides us and start seeing the common thread in human nature. That’s when the divisions finally disappear.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

Go ahead and argue that with those New Yorkers.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

When I use the word "saint," maybe I’m exaggerating a bit—but what I really mean is someone who truly deserves the title as one of God’s creations. I'm talking about a person who lives without those constant, systematic negative thoughts. Someone free from hatred, intolerance, or any kind of resentment toward people who are different. Imagine someone who isn't weighed down by fear, sadness, or pity. They have this steady, composed disposition; they aren't high-strung or anxious. They display a version of "normalcy" that doesn't align with the standard societal definition. See, most people you meet in a crowd deal with these internal struggles or neuroses, and in extreme cases, society even labels them as "deviant." But there's a higher level of peace that goes beyond that.

Real spirituality is measured by results. It isn’t about how many books you’ve read or what specific doctrine you follow; it’s about how you actually impact the people around you. Take the Bible or Christianity—it works the same way with Hinduism or Buddhism. They’ve all produced massive numbers of truly spiritual people because they focus on that core influence.
Look, I wasn't talking about religion. What I mean is that everyone has to find their own way to live out their spiritual life. Personal spiritual growth is an individual journey—it doesn't depend on the Bible, the Vedas, or any specific doctrine. Sure, if someone is truly dedicated to their faith and actually follows those core principles of growth, they can certainly evolve spiritually. But for most people? Organized religion usually just ends up being a cage.

Your interpretation of the Bible is personal to you. If there were a universal consensus on how to read it, we wouldn't be looking at 40,000 different sects today. I still believe that what Jesus spoke was the Holy Word, but over the last 1,700 years, so much dust has been kicked up around the meaning that it's hard to see clearly. Honestly, despite what people claim, the Bible as it exists today isn't providing the roadmap humanity needs to build a truly healthy society. It just isn't happening, much as we might want it to.

That doesn’t mean the core values found in all the world's major religions are exclusive to the Bible. Real values are part of our basic human nature; they just need to be cultivated. They don't necessarily have to stem from organized belief systems, but rather from a practical spirituality—which is exactly what Hrostos points toward. It's about substance over empty rituals or sterile ceremonies.

Spirituality is a personal journey. If you believe Christianity is the only way, then by all means, follow that path. I don't think it’s an easy road, far from it. But here is the reality: if the Bible had remained an uncorrupted, original source of truth over the last 2,000 years, this planet would be a much better place for growth. People might actually live up to the title of "humanity." But that isn't the case—just like it hasn't been with other doctrines that emerged from ancient spiritual traditions.

The idea that "God and I are one" might only be something a person can claim when they feel God's presence personally right here on Earth. You see this kind of sentiment all over the East, and there's really no doubt about it.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

Look, you completely misunderstood my point from the jump. I’m not trying to tear down Christian values at all. What I was actually saying is that 99% of people who call themselves Christians don't actually live with any spiritual intention. They don't bother with the actual work of being a decent human being—which is what being a true follower is all about. It’s about thinking right, speaking right, and doing right. It’s about genuinely loving your neighbor and loving God in a way that’s selfless and pure, rather than just making everything about yourself.

I don't follow any specific spiritual path or religion. My entire philosophy boils down to one simple doctrine: living out the Truth by sticking to three things—good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

I hold myself to high standards. Though, I wouldn't call them "extraordinary"—I’d just say they are basic human standards that most people simply fail to live up to for various reasons.

I’m not out here pointing fingers at anyone else, but I definitely hold myself accountable because there is no room for compromise when it comes to your spiritual life.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

A temple, as a physical structure, is a symbol of man and his divine attributes—the "temple of God." There is absolutely nothing boring about that.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

I couldn't agree more. I just wonder why people don't actually do that. Honestly, I see it even with those who show up to church or a mosque every single week. I’m not judging, I’m just observing—most people simply aren't spiritually tuned in. They might claim to be devout, religious, or regular attendees who pray every day, but if they don't actually live it out through their actions, they end up struggling with all sorts of unnecessary pain in their lives.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:I don't buy the idea that astrology, tarot, or bioenergy will reveal your inner secrets; they aren't even designed to point you in that direction. Think of it this way: a true "mentor" is someone who can hand you the right "keys," though finding the real deal is always a gamble. An enlightened mentor on the outside is essentially just an external version of the latent mentor you have to awaken within yourself. Of course, you don't strictly need an outside guide, but trying to navigate the journey solo is a much longer, more uncertain trek.

They won't. But they can spark an interest in spirituality.

Enlightenment isn't happening if you aren't interested in the first place.

A "mentor" is someone who can show you the right "keys," though finding the real ones is a different story entirely.

You don't need to go looking.

The moment you're actually ready for a spiritual upgrade, a teacher always seems to show up out of nowhere. 😉

It’s quite easy to buy spirituality these days—in fact, we see more and more people trying to peddle it like a commodity 😬—
but you simply cannot use spirituality to buy your way into wealth.

Jeremy Scott said:They won't. But they can spark an interest in spirituality.

Enlightenment isn't happening if you aren't interested in the first place.

A "mentor" is someone who can show you the right "keys," though finding the real ones is a different story entirely.

You don't need to go looking.

The moment you're actually ready for a spiritual upgrade, a teacher always seems to show up out of nowhere. 😉

Actually, that might not even be true. Throughout history, tons of people have reached enlightenment without ever even hearing the word. Enlightenment isn't about overthinking what spirituality is; it’s beyond thought. It all comes down to whether someone has created the right natural conditions for it to happen. If those conditions exist, the process is just natural—it happens on its own.

Jeremy Scott said:They won't. But they can spark an interest in spirituality.

Enlightenment isn't happening if you aren't interested in the first place.

A "mentor" is someone who can show you the right "keys," though finding the real ones is a different story entirely.

You don't need to go looking.

The moment you're actually ready for a spiritual upgrade, a teacher always seems to show up out of nowhere. 😉

That's exactly my point.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

People like you are exactly why organized religion feels so broken. Look, I’m not saying these institutions don't exist, but if there were more people actually *getting* it, the church would be a legitimate solution for most folks walking through those doors. Sadly, that’s just not how it works. And honestly? It’s not even the fault of the churches themselves—it’s the people inside them. It's the crowd showing up but ignoring every basic principle, sticking to nothing but the empty rituals and formalities.

To be totally real with you, I’m lightyears behind most of the people I see at church who actually inspire me.
I mean the actual believers living right here in my neck of the woods.
The level of being filled with the Holy Spirit they have—and everything else that comes in that package, like inner peace, joy, inspiration, seeing the world through spiritual eyes, emotional maturity, strength, humility, loving your neighbor and all that jazz... man, I’d give anything to reach that level myself.

So, what is it about you that makes you feel so much better than them?

I won't even pretend I didn't notice how you basically brag about it through your own posts.

It honestly fascinates me every single time how the ego always finds itself hit or called out—directly or indirectly—whenever someone expresses a perception of reality that doesn't quite align with their own. It’s like this intense need arises within that same ego to react and defend a belief system that it considers to be the absolute truth.

...and whether it’s actually true or not, well, nobody knows for sure—except God, of course. 🙂

Of course, it works the other way too, let's be clear—when one ego just coddles another ego that agrees with it and shares the same worldview.

Maybe it’s because you want to reach all those things so badly that they actually slip away from you. That desire for everything you see in someone else pulls you away from what is already inside you. You want something, and because you're chasing it, it stays just out of reach... and to truly "reach" what you listed earlier, you first have to accept everything in yourself that is the opposite of it. You have to honestly embrace your own inner darkness instead of just hunting for the things you wish you had.

...because, like Rumi would say, the more you search for peace, the more restlessness you find. Seek out the restlessness, and you will unexpectedly sink into a sea of tranquility.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

That is exactly how the Church—whether it's Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, whatever, or even cults—has behaved and continues to behave; they've always adjusted themselves to suit their own interests and benefits.

So what's the problem when someone else does the exact same thing?

Life is colorful in everything, including this famous "spirituality," whatever that means to anyone.

A supermarket full of colorful items: buy, sell, hurry up folks, we're almost out! 😁

We will keep sharing ourselves more and more and more... until we finally return to our true Self.
It’s all a game, and this Life is a game—funny, tragic, and beautiful.

The universe is really just a reflection of who you are.
If you can just stay open and gentle—that’s really how the whole universe works.
If you’re living with a closed mind and a rigid heart—well, that's exactly how the universe is going to feel to you.
If you’re divided within yourself, then everything around you—the whole universe—is going to feel just as fractured.
If you’re truly unique, then the entire universe is one-of-a-kind too.
Your truth isn't necessarily mine.
Just because you see things one way doesn't mean I have to see them that same way—and that’s perfectly fine.
If you change your perspective, the whole truth changes right along with it.
Change the truth, and you’ve basically teleported yourself into a whole different reality.
Open your eyes and actually look!
Open your ears and listen up!
Just accept everything!
Just let it all go!
Take it all in!
Be like water—formless and fluid.

I couldn't agree more.
The way a person thinks and acts—that’s something we all recognize, no matter where you go. It's pretty much universal.
Human behavior is honestly pretty predictable—it’s measurable, too—and if you know what you're doing, it's incredibly easy to manipulate.
It’s actually pretty well understood what makes people tick—what drives them, what keeps them up at night, how they tend to react when things get intense—you know?
Time is, more than successfully, I work in applied psychology.
If you take a little more time to really dive into the Bible, You'll see—it’s really about finding a way to rise above those repetitive patterns we all fall into. It addresses how to actually transcend the cycles of human behavior that most of us are just stuck in.
Claiming you’re somehow outside her boundaries—honestly, that sounds a little bit of a stretch to me.
I honestly don't think there's any basis in reality for insisting that all 8 billion of us are these completely individualized, one-of-a-kind behavioral units. It just doesn't hold up.

Real, true insight only comes from within—everything else is just dead knowledge. It’s nothing more than someone else's version of the truth that we end up swallowing whole without ever actually thinking for ourselves first.

Honestly, I feel like all this focus on building up our intellect doesn't actually give us anything real—it just pushes us further away from who we truly are. We end up getting this sense of arrogance, thinking we actually know what we're talking about when, in reality, we don't know a thing.

Searching for answers out there in space is really just the first step—and honestly, it’s a necessary one. But that journey only matters because it eventually leads you to the next stage: the realization that all those answers were already inside you all along. You don't find the truth out there; you realize that you actually *are* the answer.

What kind of blasphemy did they just drop in there? Regarding those spiritual truths—they just tossed them out.?
And who exactly told you that?

So, what’s the deal with all those other gospels that didn't make the cut? You know, the ones that aren't part of the four in the New Testament—the ones that were basically left out because of the church leadership and politics back in the day?
What’s the deal with the Gospel of Thomas, the Nag Hammadi library, and all that?

Spiritual warfare is a heavy thing—it demands way more from you than just some superficial intention or a passing interest. It’s a real grind.

Who told you that—or who even convinced you—that it’s going to be that difficult?
What exactly is this whole "spiritual warfare" thing—and why does it even have to be a "warfare" in the first place? 🤷

Christianity might not have produced a billion people, but it certainly produced thousands of saints. Honestly, if you just try to live out even one of the principles that inspired them—or just attempt to follow their lead—I guarantee you'll see some real spiritual progress.

A non-saint declaring someone else a saint... man, if that isn't just how things work. It’s got to be that way. 😬

It’s all just a game... honestly, there's no point in taking any of it too seriously. 🙂

Look, I get it... at first glance, church can seem pretty boring.
But true spiritual growth isn't about chasing some cheap thrill—you know, that instant rush where everything flashes before your eyes or you feel some weird cosmic buzz. It’s actually about how much it changes you deep down—how it connects you to your own conscience and opens your heart up to the people around you.

Who told you that, though? Where exactly did you read that it works that way?

Jeremy Scott said:They won't. But they can spark an interest in spirituality.

Enlightenment isn't happening if you aren't interested in the first place.

A "mentor" is someone who can show you the right "keys," though finding the real ones is a different story entirely.

You don't need to go looking.

The moment you're actually ready for a spiritual upgrade, a teacher always seems to show up out of nowhere. 😉

Honestly, maybe it only happens once you're completely drained—once you've let go of all those rigid concepts and the mental clutter we all carry around.

When you finally just move past—or transcend—the whole idea of "enlightenment" itself.

There are probably people who have never even heard the term, yet they’re living enlightened lives—just living authentically and in tune with nature.

You don't need to go looking for it.

The moment you're actually ready for a spiritual upgrade, some teacher always seems to pop up out of nowhere. 😉

Even if they turn out to be the "wrong" kind of teacher.😲 😁

^
There’s no such thing as a "bad" teacher—there are only "bad" students!
🧐

Honestly, there’s no such thing as a "bad" student—there are just students. 🧐

🙂 and honestly, there aren't even any students left—it's just this!
🧐

Actually, none of this even exists, because everything is simultaneously everything and nothing ---> Everything is Nothing! Nothing is Everything! 🧐

😁
But seriously, nothing is "Nothing" and nothing is "Everything"—it's like, neither exists because neither actually stays still.

It’s just this one moment, right? But even this moment isn't really "this" anymore because it's already shifted into something else. Everything is constantly morphing into the next "now"... Ugh... 🙂 who could ever catch or hold onto a single fixed moment...
Man 🤣 let Sisyphus deal with that mess.
Only this moment exists, but honestly, even that doesn't last, it just becomes the next thing... or...
Just look at this!

🙂 aaaaAAGHh...
Who even cares enough to stress about what exists when nothing actually stays put, which basically means nothing exists at all.
Or maybe it's just this. Honestly, let this moment change however it wants.
There's no way I can control this.

But I know Life exists, even if it never stands still 🧐

wearyowl29 said:Well, since our discussion on teaching went south, let’s pivot to something else: money and its relationship with everything else.

Cash is a necessity for everyone—whether you're a deep thinker, a jokester, a religious zealot, a devout believer, an atheist, or even a hardcore Marxist. Everybody needs it.

Let's be real: trying to survive in modern America without money is basically impossible.
While some folks are scraping by on pocket change, others can blow through thousands of dollars in a heartbeat, but money remains
absolutely essential for both the pauper and the tycoon alike.

Take a look at the major world religions. One that's everywhere here in the States is the Catholic Church. It's widely considered one of the wealthiest institutions out there (Jesop:In the name of God). Of course, their coffers have taken some hits lately due to the greed of certain servants and the massive settlements they've had to pay out regarding various scandals involving misconduct.

So, let's examine the wealth—or lack thereof—within organized religion.
The Church doesn't shy away from the donations of the faithful; in fact, the collection plate moves from person to person, and every little bit helps.
Money isn't something they turn their noses up at.

However, it seems much less welcome when someone tries to pursue spirituality on their own, outside the structure of an organized religion.

There's this common assumption that you just can't mix spirituality with finances. People act like true spiritual seekers should always have empty wallets. It's as if needing God doesn't also mean having earthly needs to take care of! I mean, come on—hermits are becoming a rare breed, and most of us can't exactly move to a cave, and let's face it, yogis thrive in much different climates than we do here.

It creates this weird impression that poverty itself attracts spirituality, and that being spiritual means you can't enjoy material comfort.
But those who dedicate their entire lives to spiritual growth or helping others still need a way to pay the bills.

Is experiencing personal hardship really the only way to develop one's soul or figure out how to live life?

Why do we insist that anyone seeking a higher path has to be broke?

At the end of the day, it's much worse to be spiritually bankrupt than it is to be comfortably well-off.
👍

It’s because people spend so much time pouring over the Bible and various Eastern texts. They all lean into that idea—you know the one—that it's easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy person to enter heaven. So why does that narrative stick?
Because, let's be real, money buys comfort. And when you have plenty of material wealth, it's easy to get lost in indulging the physical self. Some people hit their limit quickly, others take longer... and then you have those who find a way to balance pleasure with purpose—meditating in a Rolls-Royce, for instance. 😁