Theosophy

Gregory Jackson said:

Man, I was just thinking about this earlier, but honestly? It’s such a scruffy little thing. Like, seriously, just a total ragamuffin of a pup. I guess you could say it’s looking a bit rough around the edges, if you know what I mean, maybe even a little bit bedraggled. Just one of those messy, unkempt little creatures that somehow still manages to be kind of endearing in its own weird way, I suppose. kaže:
I mean, those worlds he’s always going on about... they don't actually exist, at least not any the way he describes them, I guess. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying things like Devahan or astral planes aren't real concepts out there somewhere, but his descriptions just don't have anything to do with the reality of it all. I actually have that little pamphlet, Devahan Enterprises, sitting around—honestly, I wasn't even interested in it when I was a kid, but I decided to flip through it again last night just to see if it hit differently now that I'm older, but yeah, it was pretty much nothing. For starters, it doesn't really connect to Devahan Enterprises at all; it doesn't offer a single coherent idea about what any of this is, and once you finish reading it, you're probably just left feeling more confused than when you started. It feels like West only heard about the Devahan level from Leadbeater, and then he just took it at face value without having any sort of context or anything else to compare it to, which is kind of wild. The only thing in that whole booklet that actually relates to Devahan is the title itself, and then everyone starts debating whether he actually understood what Devahan meant or if he was just throwing around terms like astral planes to sound smart. But honestly, I don't think Leadbeater knew anything about any of it; he was just spinning his own theories about Devahan and these various planes and whatnot. I've even poked through some of his other writings, and they're all pretty much useless and nonsensical, too. At best, you might walk away with a totally wrong impression because, I suppose, if you don't have a clue what you're talking about, you can just ramble about whatever pops into your head, right? Everything he wrote is just kind of empty and doesn't explain a single thing. I was rereading Devahan Enterprises again last night, and if anyone were to ask me, "Hey, so you read it, what does it actually say about the Devahan level?" I'd probably just stare at them blankly. 🤔🤔🤔 I mean, I guess you couldn't really try to summarize that for anyone, because honestly, there's just nothing there to work with, you know? It’s like trying to explain a blank sheet of paper or something, which probably wouldn't be much of a conversation starter either, I suppose.
I honestly feel like my two previous posts on this thread actually managed to capture more of the essence of Devahan Enterprises—like, you know, that specific aftertaste, the actual flavor profile, even the scent of it all—than what you could ever hope to find in the entirety of Leadbeater's whole body of work, I guess.

I mean, I’ve been sitting here thinking about this, and I’m honestly just so curious, you know? Like, how can anyone even begin to claim that Leadbeater has "mastered Devahan," or maybe just partially mastered those astral planes, when the whole thing is kind of a loop? It’s like, if someone is basing their entire understanding of what Devahan actually is—or even what those astral realms are even about—strictly on what they’ve heard from Leadbeater himself, then doesn't that basically mean they don't actually know anything at all? It feels like they might just be completely and utterly confused on those specific points, I guess.

I mean, I guess I just don't really see any actual contribution from Leadbeater to anything at all, if that makes sense? Like, I've been sitting here thinking about it, and honestly, maybe I'm just missing something, but I truly can't wrap my head around what they're actually bringing to the table.So, look, this guy clearly doesn't have the slightest clue about the astral plane, or how those layers actually work, or even what Devahan is really all about, but he’s managed to stir up such a massive mess that now we’ve got people out here making all these wild claims based on his total nonsense. It's like, they're trying to argue about what he supposedly controlled or didn't control, which is just silly because, honestly, he didn't rule over anything at all, I guess. But hey, if anyone thinks I'm totally off base here, feel free to try and change my mind, I suppose!

So, what are we even supposed to do if we haven't had any of those astral experiences yet, and we don't have any Devahan training either? I mean, I guess you’re probably out there hunting for some kind of super reliable source to guide you, even if that means digging through something like Leadbeater's work. Honestly, there’s actually a lot of good stuff tucked away in his writings, and I really think there's something useful for everyone, regardless of where they are on their path. Like, maybe you can find a specific instruction from a master or just a more advanced student that fits your current vibe, whether you're looking for deep spiritual insights or just something practical that works for someone managing a household or something along those lines. It's all in there somewhere, I suppose.
I mean, Daskalos is honestly incredible and he really speaks from the heart based on his own lived experiences, which I love, but you know, I guess there just isn't any place where you can find his deep dives or concentrated writings specifically about the astral plane or that noetic realm—what he calls the Devahan level. It’s more like you just pick up little bits and pieces of insight here and there while he’s busy explaining other topics, so you have to kind of piece the puzzle together yourself, I suppose.
I mean, honestly, I guess most people don't actually need to get bogged down in all the gritty, nitty-gritty details of the theory itself, you know? It’s more like... maybe they just need that little nudge of perspective regarding what happens after we leave this physical plane, which I suppose could have all sorts of huge implications—hopefully positive ones, anyway—on how we choose to view the world we're living in right now.

Man, I actually had this one experience back when I was a college student that felt totally surreal, like I was caught in some kind of lucid dream or maybe even an astral projection session—I was playing around with this specific technique at the time, you know?—but honestly, by the time I woke up the next morning, I wasn't even sure if I’d just had a wild dream or what actually happened. I never really managed to pull it off again, though I guess I didn't exactly go out of my way to try either, since there are plenty of other ways to level up your practice anyway. But yeah, I always love hearing about what you guys are going through and catching those firsthand accounts from people who actually do this stuff.

Just to jump in and stick up for Leadbeater for a second, I mean, the guy basically said multiple times that trying to put those worlds into words is an almost impossible task, and that any description is probably going to feel pretty hollow or just totally incomplete. So, I guess it’s kind of easy to nitpick if someone really wants to be critical, right? It might actually be more helpful if we could get some recommendations for someone else who maybe handled that kind of world-building a bit better.

Oh, absolutely. This should clear up quite a bit.

Paul Ross2 said:Oh, absolutely. This should clear up quite a bit.

Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche

Thanks, I’ll definitely give that a look. I’m really hoping Rinpoche goes a bit deeper than just the immediate post-mortem stuff, and honestly, I’m crossing my fingers that the language isn't too heavily tied to strict Buddhist terminology—otherwise, I might be stuck hovering over a dictionary the whole time.

I'm mostly curious about the actual roadmap of progress after we leave this material life, you know? Like, the whole process of moving through various astral planes after death while working through the exhaustion of desires, eventually hitting that second death, reaching Devachan, and all that good stuff... basically, what life and development actually look like in those spaces between incarnations.

Paul Rogers94 said:Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche

I mean, honestly, it feels like every other Buddhist teacher you come across goes by the name Rinpoche, I guess.👍

Gregory Jackson said:I mean, honestly, it feels like every other Buddhist teacher you come across goes by the name Rinpoche, I guess.👍

The term Rinpoche—it’s essentially synonymous with Gollum’s "Precious." Back home, people tend to translate it simply as "Gold," but that misses the mark entirely; it actually refers to something truly precious.

I remember him from back before the internet was even a thing. Now that he’s online... well, it's interesting to watch. He seems to share that same specific trait found in Leadbeater—and let's not forget Osho Rajneesh (if we can ever forget the whole saga involving those 100 Gold Rolls-Royces and the endless parade of young women). Of course, we had our own localized, slightly smaller-scale versions of that particular brand of chaos right here in the States—think of someone like Don Ante Baković and his Jeep Grand Cherokee, or even how Aziz Makaj (Franjo Miličević) wasn't exactly far off from that orbit either.

The accusations leveled against Sogyal Rinpoche—ranging from sexual and physical assault to the blatant misuse of charitable funds—aren't exactly recent developments; in fact, they stretch all the way back to the 1970s. One has to wonder: how much longer can such systemic issues remain under the surface?

Back in 1994, a massive $10 million civil lawsuit was leveled against Sogyal Rinpoche. The core of the allegation? That he allegedly leveraged his authority as a spiritual mentor to coerce a female student into a sexual relationship. It wasn't just a simple accusation, either—the legal complaint went much further, citing claims of intentional infliction of emotional distress, a breach of fiduciary duty, and even outright assault and battery. Ultimately, the whole matter was settled out of court, avoiding a public trial.

Back in 2011, some rather serious allegations resurfaced—this time brought to light by journalist Mary Finnigan, who, if you recall, was actually the primary author behind the original piece back in 1995.

Back in 2014, Marion Dapsance concluded a grueling seven-year investigation into the life and actions of Sogyal Rinpoche. It wasn't just abstract allegations, either—by 2016, *Time* magazine had published the harrowing testimony of "Mimi," a former long-term assistant to Sogyal Rinpoche, who detailed the systematic sexual and psychological abuse she and her colleagues were forced to endure. Then there was the internal fallout: in 2015, Olivier Raurich, who had served as the longtime director of Rigpa France, resigned from the organization—not just for a change of pace, mind you, but as an outright protest against what he described as a suffocatingly dictatorial atmosphere. To top it all off, another survivor finally found the courage to go public during the June 13, 2017, broadcast of the American investigative program *Brandpunt*. One has to wonder: how much longer could such a culture of control actually persist?

Gregory Jackson said:Thanks, I’ll definitely give that a look. I’m really hoping Rinpoche goes a bit deeper than just the immediate post-mortem stuff, and honestly, I’m crossing my fingers that the language isn't too heavily tied to strict Buddhist terminology—otherwise, I might be stuck hovering over a dictionary the whole time.

I'm mostly curious about the actual roadmap of progress after we leave this material life, you know? Like, the whole process of moving through various astral planes after death while working through the exhaustion of desires, eventually hitting that second death, reaching Devachan, and all that good stuff... basically, what life and development actually look like in those spaces between incarnations.

it hit me hard back when I thought nothing could impress me anymore

You need some prior knowledge—there’s probably some kind of glossary involved...

And you always have to know what's being discussed. If you're reading something like Jacob Boheme's Morning Glow in the East, you won't understand a thing unless you study the spirit of the language used at that time. For instance, if you don't immediately link the bitterness, acidity, and sweetness he constantly mentions back to the gunas (tamas, rajas, and sattva), then the whole reading experience is completely pointless...

Dammit, you have to have some points of reference to compare things against; you have to be able to recognize them within a broader context and find where they actually fit.

It took me about ten years to truly grasp a little booklet that was written in just three days—to the point where I can say I "see through it"—but it was worth it. 🙂

Just pick up the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying; I'm sure you won't have any trouble with it.

Paul Ross2 said:The term Rinpoche—it’s essentially synonymous with Gollum’s "Precious." Back home, people tend to translate it simply as "Gold," but that misses the mark entirely; it actually refers to something truly precious.

I remember him from back before the internet was even a thing. Now that he’s online... well, it's interesting to watch. He seems to share that same specific trait found in Leadbeater—and let's not forget Osho Rajneesh (if we can ever forget the whole saga involving those 100 Gold Rolls-Royces and the endless parade of young women). Of course, we had our own localized, slightly smaller-scale versions of that particular brand of chaos right here in the States—think of someone like Don Ante Baković and his Jeep Grand Cherokee, or even how Aziz Makaj (Franjo Miličević) wasn't exactly far off from that orbit either.

The accusations leveled against Sogyal Rinpoche—ranging from sexual and physical assault to the blatant misuse of charitable funds—aren't exactly recent developments; in fact, they stretch all the way back to the 1970s. One has to wonder: how much longer can such systemic issues remain under the surface?

Back in 1994, a massive $10 million civil lawsuit was leveled against Sogyal Rinpoche. The core of the allegation? That he allegedly leveraged his authority as a spiritual mentor to coerce a female student into a sexual relationship. It wasn't just a simple accusation, either—the legal complaint went much further, citing claims of intentional infliction of emotional distress, a breach of fiduciary duty, and even outright assault and battery. Ultimately, the whole matter was settled out of court, avoiding a public trial.

Back in 2011, some rather serious allegations resurfaced—this time brought to light by journalist Mary Finnigan, who, if you recall, was actually the primary author behind the original piece back in 1995.

Back in 2014, Marion Dapsance concluded a grueling seven-year investigation into the life and actions of Sogyal Rinpoche. It wasn't just abstract allegations, either—by 2016, *Time* magazine had published the harrowing testimony of "Mimi," a former long-term assistant to Sogyal Rinpoche, who detailed the systematic sexual and psychological abuse she and her colleagues were forced to endure. Then there was the internal fallout: in 2015, Olivier Raurich, who had served as the longtime director of Rigpa France, resigned from the organization—not just for a change of pace, mind you, but as an outright protest against what he described as a suffocatingly dictatorial atmosphere. To top it all off, another survivor finally found the courage to go public during the June 13, 2017, broadcast of the American investigative program *Brandpunt*. One has to wonder: how much longer could such a culture of control actually persist?

Fair observation—if only he’d actually notice any wisdom worth sifting through, that would be something...

I once posted a quote from Ramana Maharshi on Facebook—paired with that classic image of him sitting on a tiger skin—and honestly, it was hilarious. Not one of his hardcore followers noticed the profound wisdom in his words... instead, everyone just lost their minds over the fact that he was sitting on the hide of a dead tiger. Typical...

And that’s exactly why it’s such a nightmare for people to separate the wheat from the chaff...

Wasn't Zar Buddha a king, just like Janak?

Beyond that, Sogyal Rinpoche falls under the Milarepa lineage—that whole "crazy wisdom" thing—which is defined by those avadhutas and mahasiddhas who are essentially intoxicated by divine madness... people for whom conventional rules just don't apply. Nothing. The norms were always there—those standards that the people living in... Red quarters. They were literally waking up hookers through intercourse—if someone like that spat on you or hurled insults at you, it was considered a massive blessing. That single act would completely strip away a person's negative karma. Sogyal Rinpoche’s behavior is entirely consistent with that logic and his actual state of being... if people only acted that way by merely imitating divine madness, it wouldn't just be useless, it would be... Any behavior that doesn't align with our true state of being—it just causes harm... nothing more, nothing less.Then you’re just kidding yourself...

Even within Sufi mysticism, you find two distinct currents—one follows a standard, pretty disciplined path... Naqshbandi...and the other one is... Malamatiyya What exactly is this "path of blame" concept? It’s the idea that you have to go out and commit actual transgressions just to connect with the divine—essentially acting out your darkest impulses to confront the shadow you hide behind a mask of socially acceptable morality...

So, let me get this straight—neither how someone acts nor what they own can serve as any kind of yardstick for spirituality...

Paul Ross2 said:I’m lost. What language is this sentence even written in—and is it actually a coherent sentence? While the Greeks certainly valued the Laconic style, "Laconic" feels like a complete misnomer in this context.

My bad, I'm typing this on my phone and autocorrect is driving me crazy!
What the sentence is trying to get at is that you just can't quantify inspiration with math.

Paul Rogers94 said:Fair observation—if only he’d actually notice any wisdom worth sifting through, that would be something...

I once posted a quote from Ramana Maharshi on Facebook—paired with that classic image of him sitting on a tiger skin—and honestly, it was hilarious. Not one of his hardcore followers noticed the profound wisdom in his words... instead, everyone just lost their minds over the fact that he was sitting on the hide of a dead tiger. Typical...

And that’s exactly why it’s such a nightmare for people to separate the wheat from the chaff...

Wasn't Zar Buddha a king, just like Janak?

Beyond that, Sogyal Rinpoche falls under the Milarepa lineage—that whole "crazy wisdom" thing—which is defined by those avadhutas and mahasiddhas who are essentially intoxicated by divine madness... people for whom conventional rules just don't apply. Nothing. The norms were always there—those standards that the people living in... Red quarters. They were literally waking up hookers through intercourse—if someone like that spat on you or hurled insults at you, it was considered a massive blessing. That single act would completely strip away a person's negative karma. Sogyal Rinpoche’s behavior is entirely consistent with that logic and his actual state of being... if people only acted that way by merely imitating divine madness, it wouldn't just be useless, it would be... Any behavior that doesn't align with our true state of being—it just causes harm... nothing more, nothing less.Then you’re just kidding yourself...

Even within Sufi mysticism, you find two distinct currents—one follows a standard, pretty disciplined path... Naqshbandi...and the other one is... Malamatiyya What exactly is this "path of blame" concept? It’s the idea that you have to go out and commit actual transgressions just to connect with the divine—essentially acting out your darkest impulses to confront the shadow you hide behind a mask of socially acceptable morality...

So, let me get this straight—neither how someone acts nor what they own can serve as any kind of yardstick for spirituality...

I was referring to this:

Drew Moore5 said:Look, unlike many other theosophists, Leadbiter actually had genuine insight into the astral plane, which was widely recognized. However, that doesn't apply to Devahan, which operates on an entirely different level.
The astral plane is essentially a realm of images that sit behind reality. Devahan, on the other hand, is a realm of sound behind reality. Even if his description of Devahan isn't perfect, I suspect he would agree with that distinction. Honestly, Devahan can't really be described systematically; you can only approach it through certain outlines or principles.

To recap: Leadbiter was an Anglican priest who joined the Theosophical Society, got kicked out, then got let back in, eventually becoming a bishop for the so-called Free Catholic Church in Australia. He was also initiated into Freemasonry during that time.

He faced accusations regarding teaching boys assigned to him about masturbation. Without passing judgment ourselves, we should look at the consensus of his contemporaries. A significant number of Theosophical Society members, including Annie Besant, pushed for his expulsion. And he was expelled. We won't dwell on the specific accusation from one boy regarding his sexuality, but the fact remains: Besant, who basically ran the Society, eventually changed her mind and allowed him back in.
Aleister Crowley wrote in 'The Equinox' that he was a "senile sexual maniac."

Then there's Krishnamurti, which is a whole different story. As the son of a Theosophical Society member (convenient, right?), he was intended to be the vessel for some sort of Messiah, though nobody was quite sure which one. After a few years, he walked away and headed to Australia. Once Krishnamurti matured, he tried to reject the labels people forced upon him, but it was a losing battle. He practically had no choice. Fortunately, Krishnamurti himself was a decent person, even if his personality was crushed under a massive burden.

Since your avatar is the Ukrainian flag, it suggests that your emotions are driving your logic. That’s not necessarily a catastrophe at your level—that's how most people operate. But it becomes dangerous if those emotions push you toward action (like changing an avatar, for instance), because emotions are the easiest things to manipulate.

All of this feels somewhat reminiscent of the Chod ritual.

Gregory Jackson said:

Man, I was just thinking about this earlier, but honestly? It’s such a scruffy little thing. Like, seriously, just a total ragamuffin of a pup. I guess you could say it’s looking a bit rough around the edges, if you know what I mean, maybe even a little bit bedraggled. Just one of those messy, unkempt little creatures that somehow still manages to be kind of endearing in its own weird way, I suppose. kaže:
I mean, those worlds he’s always going on about... they don't actually exist, at least not any the way he describes them, I guess. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying things like Devahan or astral planes aren't real concepts out there somewhere, but his descriptions just don't have anything to do with the reality of it all. I actually have that little pamphlet, Devahan Enterprises, sitting around—honestly, I wasn't even interested in it when I was a kid, but I decided to flip through it again last night just to see if it hit differently now that I'm older, but yeah, it was pretty much nothing. For starters, it doesn't really connect to Devahan Enterprises at all; it doesn't offer a single coherent idea about what any of this is, and once you finish reading it, you're probably just left feeling more confused than when you started. It feels like West only heard about the Devahan level from Leadbeater, and then he just took it at face value without having any sort of context or anything else to compare it to, which is kind of wild. The only thing in that whole booklet that actually relates to Devahan is the title itself, and then everyone starts debating whether he actually understood what Devahan meant or if he was just throwing around terms like astral planes to sound smart. But honestly, I don't think Leadbeater knew anything about any of it; he was just spinning his own theories about Devahan and these various planes and whatnot. I've even poked through some of his other writings, and they're all pretty much useless and nonsensical, too. At best, you might walk away with a totally wrong impression because, I suppose, if you don't have a clue what you're talking about, you can just ramble about whatever pops into your head, right? Everything he wrote is just kind of empty and doesn't explain a single thing. I was rereading Devahan Enterprises again last night, and if anyone were to ask me, "Hey, so you read it, what does it actually say about the Devahan level?" I'd probably just stare at them blankly. 🤔🤔🤔 I mean, I guess you couldn't really try to summarize that for anyone, because honestly, there's just nothing there to work with, you know? It’s like trying to explain a blank sheet of paper or something, which probably wouldn't be much of a conversation starter either, I suppose.
I honestly feel like my two previous posts on this thread actually managed to capture more of the essence of Devahan Enterprises—like, you know, that specific aftertaste, the actual flavor profile, even the scent of it all—than what you could ever hope to find in the entirety of Leadbeater's whole body of work, I guess.

I mean, I’ve been sitting here thinking about this, and I’m honestly just so curious, you know? Like, how can anyone even begin to claim that Leadbeater has "mastered Devahan," or maybe just partially mastered those astral planes, when the whole thing is kind of a loop? It’s like, if someone is basing their entire understanding of what Devahan actually is—or even what those astral realms are even about—strictly on what they’ve heard from Leadbeater himself, then doesn't that basically mean they don't actually know anything at all? It feels like they might just be completely and utterly confused on those specific points, I guess.

I mean, I guess I just don't really see any actual contribution from Leadbeater to anything at all, if that makes sense? Like, I've been sitting here thinking about it, and honestly, maybe I'm just missing something, but I truly can't wrap my head around what they're actually bringing to the table.So, look, this guy clearly doesn't have the slightest clue about the astral plane, or how those layers actually work, or even what Devahan is really all about, but he’s managed to stir up such a massive mess that now we’ve got people out here making all these wild claims based on his total nonsense. It's like, they're trying to argue about what he supposedly controlled or didn't control, which is just silly because, honestly, he didn't rule over anything at all, I guess. But hey, if anyone thinks I'm totally off base here, feel free to try and change my mind, I suppose!

So, what are we even supposed to do if we haven't had any of those astral experiences yet, and we don't have any Devahan training either? I mean, I guess you’re probably out there hunting for some kind of super reliable source to guide you, even if that means digging through something like Leadbeater's work. Honestly, there’s actually a lot of good stuff tucked away in his writings, and I really think there's something useful for everyone, regardless of where they are on their path. Like, maybe you can find a specific instruction from a master or just a more advanced student that fits your current vibe, whether you're looking for deep spiritual insights or just something practical that works for someone managing a household or something along those lines. It's all in there somewhere, I suppose.
I mean, Daskalos is honestly incredible and he really speaks from the heart based on his own lived experiences, which I love, but you know, I guess there just isn't any place where you can find his deep dives or concentrated writings specifically about the astral plane or that noetic realm—what he calls the Devahan level. It’s more like you just pick up little bits and pieces of insight here and there while he’s busy explaining other topics, so you have to kind of piece the puzzle together yourself, I suppose.
I mean, honestly, I guess most people don't actually need to get bogged down in all the gritty, nitty-gritty details of the theory itself, you know? It’s more like... maybe they just need that little nudge of perspective regarding what happens after we leave this physical plane, which I suppose could have all sorts of huge implications—hopefully positive ones, anyway—on how we choose to view the world we're living in right now.

Man, I actually had this one experience back when I was a college student that felt totally surreal, like I was caught in some kind of lucid dream or maybe even an astral projection session—I was playing around with this specific technique at the time, you know?—but honestly, by the time I woke up the next morning, I wasn't even sure if I’d just had a wild dream or what actually happened. I never really managed to pull it off again, though I guess I didn't exactly go out of my way to try either, since there are plenty of other ways to level up your practice anyway. But yeah, I always love hearing about what you guys are going through and catching those firsthand accounts from people who actually do this stuff.

Just to jump in and stick up for Leadbeater for a second, I mean, the guy basically said multiple times that trying to put those worlds into words is an almost impossible task, and that any description is probably going to feel pretty hollow or just totally incomplete. So, I guess it’s kind of easy to nitpick if someone really wants to be critical, right? It might actually be more helpful if we could get some recommendations for someone else who maybe handled that kind of world-building a bit better.

It seems to me we’re talking about the exact same state of being; the distinction is really just a matter of semantics. Personally, I tend to lean toward the term 'lucid dreaming' simply because it avoids those heavy-handed paranormal connotations, plus the induction techniques for lucid dreams are much more clearly documented and plentiful compared to the various methods suggested for astral travel.

As for the Theosophists, I suspect they truly did perceive and interact with those layers, those entities, and those elementals... but I also suspect those things don't exist in the same concrete, objective sense that our material reality does.

Paul Ross2 said:I was referring to this:

All of this feels somewhat reminiscent of the Chod ritual.

ah, okay...
I thought you were replying to Gregory Jackson🙂

Charles Wood73 said:It seems to me we’re talking about the exact same state of being; the distinction is really just a matter of semantics. Personally, I tend to lean toward the term 'lucid dreaming' simply because it avoids those heavy-handed paranormal connotations, plus the induction techniques for lucid dreams are much more clearly documented and plentiful compared to the various methods suggested for astral travel.

As for the Theosophists, I suspect they truly did perceive and interact with those layers, those entities, and those elementals... but I also suspect those things don't exist in the same concrete, objective sense that our material reality does.

Now, an OBE is its own beast entirely. It involves a specific kind of dissociation where the brain fundamentally shifts how it constructs the sense of self. And honestly? It can happen under circumstances that have absolutely nothing to do with sleeping.

The weird part about astral projection is that the induction process can look identical to WilD. Both involve trying to consciously fall asleep, both hit that same MABA state and sensory overload, and they even use the same tricks. For example, both groups might visualize some far-off destination until it feels "real," or try to mentally climb out of bed (OBE)—the actual sensation is identical. But for some reason, one group realizes they're dreaming, while the other is convinced they've actually drifted into the astral plane.

Since a lucid dream is defined by being aware that you're dreaming, and the people who think they're having an astral projection aren't aware they're dreaming—they actually think the whole thing is happening in real life—I'm not so sure you can call astral projection "lucid dreaming." To me, it sounds more like just a hyper-realistic dream.

darkraven said:Now, an OBE is its own beast entirely. It involves a specific kind of dissociation where the brain fundamentally shifts how it constructs the sense of self. And honestly? It can happen under circumstances that have absolutely nothing to do with sleeping.

The weird part about astral projection is that the induction process can look identical to WilD. Both involve trying to consciously fall asleep, both hit that same MABA state and sensory overload, and they even use the same tricks. For example, both groups might visualize some far-off destination until it feels "real," or try to mentally climb out of bed (OBE)—the actual sensation is identical. But for some reason, one group realizes they're dreaming, while the other is convinced they've actually drifted into the astral plane.

Since a lucid dream is defined by being aware that you're dreaming, and the people who think they're having an astral projection aren't aware they're dreaming—they actually think the whole thing is happening in real life—I'm not so sure you can call astral projection "lucid dreaming." To me, it sounds more like just a hyper-realistic dream.

True enough. Lucid dreamers know they’re dreaming, astral travelers believe they’re in the astral realm, shamans claim to be wandering through one of three or nine different worlds, and partygoers know they managed to score some top-shelf stuff this time around... meanwhile, anthropologists will tell you the difference isn't found in the insight or the sensation itself, but rather in the cultural framework used to label it. 😬

I can wrap my head around all of them, except for the folks who blindly follow Leadbeater and his crowd instead of just trying things out for themselves to see what’s actually there. A gram of practice is worth more than a ton of theory.

Charles Wood73 said:True enough. Lucid dreamers know they’re dreaming, astral travelers believe they’re in the astral realm, shamans claim to be wandering through one of three or nine different worlds, and partygoers know they managed to score some top-shelf stuff this time around... meanwhile, anthropologists will tell you the difference isn't found in the insight or the sensation itself, but rather in the cultural framework used to label it. 😬

I can wrap my head around all of them, except for the folks who blindly follow Leadbeater and his crowd instead of just trying things out for themselves to see what’s actually there. A gram of practice is worth more than a ton of theory.

🙂 is 🙂

It's time for the people to revive their spirituality

Charles Wood73 said:True enough. Lucid dreamers know they’re dreaming, astral travelers believe they’re in the astral realm, shamans claim to be wandering through one of three or nine different worlds, and partygoers know they managed to score some top-shelf stuff this time around... meanwhile, anthropologists will tell you the difference isn't found in the insight or the sensation itself, but rather in the cultural framework used to label it. 😬

I can wrap my head around all of them, except for the folks who blindly follow Leadbeater and his crowd instead of just trying things out for themselves to see what’s actually there. A gram of practice is worth more than a ton of theory.

The problem is, I don't have the means to procure the goods. Not even an ounce. I just don't have those kinds of connections.

Charles Wood73 said:It seems to me we’re talking about the exact same state of being; the distinction is really just a matter of semantics. Personally, I tend to lean toward the term 'lucid dreaming' simply because it avoids those heavy-handed paranormal connotations, plus the induction techniques for lucid dreams are much more clearly documented and plentiful compared to the various methods suggested for astral travel.

As for the Theosophists, I suspect they truly did perceive and interact with those layers, those entities, and those elementals... but I also suspect those things don't exist in the same concrete, objective sense that our material reality does.

I mean, sure, but there's such a super thin line between a lucid dream and astral travel because, if you really think about it, a lucid dream *is* basically astral travel. And it's not even just about the lucid part. We’re actually heading out into the astral realm every single night, though we do it totally unconsciously, and since our brains aren't really trained to handle jumping through dimensions, we just end up dragging back this messy jumble of fragments—if we remember anything at all. Meanwhile, while we're out there, these spiritual energy forces (some might call them Archangels of the elements, I guess) are busy working on repairing our physical bodies.

Charles Wood73 said:It seems to me we’re talking about the exact same state of being; the distinction is really just a matter of semantics. Personally, I tend to lean toward the term 'lucid dreaming' simply because it avoids those heavy-handed paranormal connotations, plus the induction techniques for lucid dreams are much more clearly documented and plentiful compared to the various methods suggested for astral travel.

As for the Theosophists, I suspect they truly did perceive and interact with those layers, those entities, and those elementals... but I also suspect those things don't exist in the same concrete, objective sense that our material reality does.

Well, they do exist within a non-material reality—sort of a world with a slightly higher vibration than this physical one. This material world we're in is kind of like the tiniest little nesting doll in a massive set, wrapped in an astral layer, then a mental layer, and then who knows what else beyond that. We already have all these different bodies surrounding our physical one right now, and I guess you could say each body corresponds to the next realm we'll inhabit after this one. That seems pretty straightforward to me, anyway.

Paul Rogers94 said:Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, Sogyal Rinpoche

I was just sitting here reading this, and man, it hits you right in the gut from the very first page. It basically argues that death is the most significant spiritual milestone we'll ever face, and because of that, we really ought to spend our entire lives preparing for it... which, I suppose, is actually quite logical when you think about it. 🙂

Paul Rogers94 said:it hit me hard back when I thought nothing could impress me anymore

You need some prior knowledge—there’s probably some kind of glossary involved...

And you always have to know what's being discussed. If you're reading something like Jacob Boheme's Morning Glow in the East, you won't understand a thing unless you study the spirit of the language used at that time. For instance, if you don't immediately link the bitterness, acidity, and sweetness he constantly mentions back to the gunas (tamas, rajas, and sattva), then the whole reading experience is completely pointless...

Dammit, you have to have some points of reference to compare things against; you have to be able to recognize them within a broader context and find where they actually fit.

It took me about ten years to truly grasp a little booklet that was written in just three days—to the point where I can say I "see through it"—but it was worth it. 🙂

Just pick up the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying; I'm sure you won't have any trouble with it.

Speaking of Tibet... 🙂 Honestly, after I managed to survive my first 24 hours over there while chugging four liters of water and basically climbing mountains without any oxygen, I think I can probably handle this book too, I guess.

Gregory Jackson said:I mean, sure, but there's such a super thin line between a lucid dream and astral travel because, if you really think about it, a lucid dream *is* basically astral travel. And it's not even just about the lucid part. We’re actually heading out into the astral realm every single night, though we do it totally unconsciously, and since our brains aren't really trained to handle jumping through dimensions, we just end up dragging back this messy jumble of fragments—if we remember anything at all. Meanwhile, while we're out there, these spiritual energy forces (some might call them Archangels of the elements, I guess) are busy working on repairing our physical bodies.

Well, they do exist within a non-material reality—sort of a world with a slightly higher vibration than this physical one. This material world we're in is kind of like the tiniest little nesting doll in a massive set, wrapped in an astral layer, then a mental layer, and then who knows what else beyond that. We already have all these different bodies surrounding our physical one right now, and I guess you could say each body corresponds to the next realm we'll inhabit after this one. That seems pretty straightforward to me, anyway.

There’s definitely some truth to that. Sometimes I have these... weird 'dreams.' They aren't lucid, or even semi-lucid; I never once stopped to wonder if I was actually dreaming while it was happening. Instead, I’d just suddenly become aware that I was experiencing something that felt phenomenologically identical to an out-of-body experience, where I could move around and think completely freely. But I wasn't trying to trigger them, and I definitely wasn't attempting any kind of intentional "separation" from my body.

I have this one vague memory of briefly waking up during one of these episodes and feeling this unintentional 'surge' upward, but honestly, I have no clue how to recreate it, and it's nothing like my usual way of inducing an OBE.

These explorations into unusual "out-of-body" consciousness phenomena are quite intriguing. Perhaps someone here might possess insight regarding the process of separating from one's physical form while in a state of full wakefulness, with eyes wide open. It felt almost like a mere overture to everything that followed.

To provide context, thirteen years ago, I was sitting outdoors in nature, simply waiting for the workday to conclude. About half an hour prior, I experienced a peculiar sensation—a strange feeling that something was about to occur.
I wasn't dwelling on any specific thoughts; I was merely relaxing and observing the landscape and the distant islands from a pine-covered clearing.
Suddenly, I felt myself slowly sliding out of my physical body toward the right side. I reached a point where I was halfway out. It was a completely conscious "slipping" away from the physical vessel, which remained entirely static.
The "entity" that emerged from the physical body was translucent, ethereal, and perhaps the most weightless sensation I have ever experienced through any form of consciousness. It was akin to direct perception without the need to reflect upon what was being observed. Pure consciousness, nothing more.

After several minutes, a progressively stronger pulling force began to act upon the physical part of my body, dragging me back toward my previous "normal" state. It was as if the physical body alone cannot sustain itself for long without what we might call a carrier, and without this "consciousness" of the physical form, the body cannot truly be conscious. Perhaps the body would simply become a zombie. But what would happen to a conscious body?
This persisted well into the evening, characterized by this incessant tugging as the body sought to pull my conscious self—which is essentially who I am—back into the integrated, default setting of a complete human being. It was a surreal experience to walk and drive my car home 🤣 feeling separated. Someone would undoubtedly describe it as being distracted. 😉

I do not consume any intoxicants, nor do I use any drugs. 🤣
From a psychological or psychiatric standpoint, this experience caused no harm to my mind or body, aside from providing a profound perception and a different perspective when viewing life outside of man's material and intellectual planes.

Does anyone happen to have information regarding a similar experience?