Theosophy

George Wood2 said:These explorations into unusual "out-of-body" consciousness phenomena are quite intriguing. Perhaps someone here might possess insight regarding the process of separating from one's physical form while in a state of full wakefulness, with eyes wide open. It felt almost like a mere overture to everything that followed.

To provide context, thirteen years ago, I was sitting outdoors in nature, simply waiting for the workday to conclude. About half an hour prior, I experienced a peculiar sensation—a strange feeling that something was about to occur.
I wasn't dwelling on any specific thoughts; I was merely relaxing and observing the landscape and the distant islands from a pine-covered clearing.
Suddenly, I felt myself slowly sliding out of my physical body toward the right side. I reached a point where I was halfway out. It was a completely conscious "slipping" away from the physical vessel, which remained entirely static.
The "entity" that emerged from the physical body was translucent, ethereal, and perhaps the most weightless sensation I have ever experienced through any form of consciousness. It was akin to direct perception without the need to reflect upon what was being observed. Pure consciousness, nothing more.

After several minutes, a progressively stronger pulling force began to act upon the physical part of my body, dragging me back toward my previous "normal" state. It was as if the physical body alone cannot sustain itself for long without what we might call a carrier, and without this "consciousness" of the physical form, the body cannot truly be conscious. Perhaps the body would simply become a zombie. But what would happen to a conscious body?
This persisted well into the evening, characterized by this incessant tugging as the body sought to pull my conscious self—which is essentially who I am—back into the integrated, default setting of a complete human being. It was a surreal experience to walk and drive my car home 🤣 feeling separated. Someone would undoubtedly describe it as being distracted. 😉

I do not consume any intoxicants, nor do I use any drugs. 🤣
From a psychological or psychiatric standpoint, this experience caused no harm to my mind or body, aside from providing a profound perception and a different perspective when viewing life outside of man's material and intellectual planes.

Does anyone happen to have information regarding a similar experience?

We are going to see more and more of this: people will attempt to shove everything they fail to comprehend into the categories of psychiatry and psychopharmaceuticals. Astral projection and an Out-of-body experience—much like remote viewing—are neither psychiatric phenomena nor the byproduct of drug use.
Our drive to rationalize is a natural impulse, yet the less people understand physics, the more they search for "proof" within physics that all of this is nonsense. The further they drift from medical science, the more they assume these states are mere pathologies. And as our culture trends toward massive shopping malls and new iterations of religious devotion to money (think Bitcoin, freelance sites like Upwork, various e-commerce platforms), people aren't just drifting away from the spiritual—they are becoming fundamentally incapable of grasping that anything exists outside of the monetary, material realm. This is made all the easier by a world that constantly bribes them with electric cars, e-scooters, high-end computers simulating reality, social media, robotics, and those endless fairy tales about artificial intelligence.

George Wood2 said:These explorations into unusual "out-of-body" consciousness phenomena are quite intriguing. Perhaps someone here might possess insight regarding the process of separating from one's physical form while in a state of full wakefulness, with eyes wide open. It felt almost like a mere overture to everything that followed.

To provide context, thirteen years ago, I was sitting outdoors in nature, simply waiting for the workday to conclude. About half an hour prior, I experienced a peculiar sensation—a strange feeling that something was about to occur.
I wasn't dwelling on any specific thoughts; I was merely relaxing and observing the landscape and the distant islands from a pine-covered clearing.
Suddenly, I felt myself slowly sliding out of my physical body toward the right side. I reached a point where I was halfway out. It was a completely conscious "slipping" away from the physical vessel, which remained entirely static.
The "entity" that emerged from the physical body was translucent, ethereal, and perhaps the most weightless sensation I have ever experienced through any form of consciousness. It was akin to direct perception without the need to reflect upon what was being observed. Pure consciousness, nothing more.

After several minutes, a progressively stronger pulling force began to act upon the physical part of my body, dragging me back toward my previous "normal" state. It was as if the physical body alone cannot sustain itself for long without what we might call a carrier, and without this "consciousness" of the physical form, the body cannot truly be conscious. Perhaps the body would simply become a zombie. But what would happen to a conscious body?
This persisted well into the evening, characterized by this incessant tugging as the body sought to pull my conscious self—which is essentially who I am—back into the integrated, default setting of a complete human being. It was a surreal experience to walk and drive my car home 🤣 feeling separated. Someone would undoubtedly describe it as being distracted. 😉

I do not consume any intoxicants, nor do I use any drugs. 🤣
From a psychological or psychiatric standpoint, this experience caused no harm to my mind or body, aside from providing a profound perception and a different perspective when viewing life outside of man's material and intellectual planes.

Does anyone happen to have information regarding a similar experience?

That's either a consequence of improper exercises you're doing, a habit from this life, a leftover from a past life, or something else entirely.

The body doesn't move; rather, consciousness changes. We all have a built-in mechanism for when this happens, which is that we automatically withdraw from it because it's such an unusual experience, unlike anything we normally encounter.

There's a danger lurking in the near future here: that everyone will "have" their own version of spirituality that they feel satisfied with. For you, it might be something significant that left a mark, but in reality, it isn't anything special. The potential danger is that it could lead you down the wrong path.

Remember, evil is also spiritual; it has a spiritual origin. The nature of good and evil is not a trivial matter at all.

darkraven said:There’s definitely some truth to that. Sometimes I have these... weird 'dreams.' They aren't lucid, or even semi-lucid; I never once stopped to wonder if I was actually dreaming while it was happening. Instead, I’d just suddenly become aware that I was experiencing something that felt phenomenologically identical to an out-of-body experience, where I could move around and think completely freely. But I wasn't trying to trigger them, and I definitely wasn't attempting any kind of intentional "separation" from my body.

I have this one vague memory of briefly waking up during one of these episodes and feeling this unintentional 'surge' upward, but honestly, I have no clue how to recreate it, and it's nothing like my usual way of inducing an OBE.

Can someone please refresh my memory—what exactly is an OBE and what's the best way to induce one?

Gregory Jackson said:Can someone please refresh my memory—what exactly is an OBE and what's the best way to induce one?

Out-of-body experience. An out-of-body experience.
My apologies if that was intended as a rhetorical question and I managed to misinterpret the intent.

Paul Ross2 said:Out-of-body experience. An out-of-body experience.
My apologies if that was intended as a rhetorical question and I managed to misinterpret the intent.

Thanks, I always just thought of that as an astral projection thing. I'd love to hear some stories though—like, what did you actually see or where did you end up going?

Gregory Jackson said:Can someone please refresh my memory—what exactly is an OBE and what's the best way to induce one?

An OBE—short for out-of-body experience—is basically when your consciousness or your sense of "self" feels totally detached from your physical body. It’s like your perspective shifts, and suddenly you’re observing the world from a vantage point that doesn't match where your physical body is actually sitting.

What most people call "astral projection" is really just the more esoteric, spiritual way of interpreting this exact phenomenon.

There are tons of ways to induce it. Personally, I stumbled onto this by accident: I find it easiest to trigger during a hypnopompic state—that weird, hazy transition period when you're slowly drifting from sleep back into wakefulness.

If I can catch myself in that specific headspace and realize I'm just lying there in bed, I'll try to "get up." But I don't move a muscle physically; I just use pure intention. Once I do that, I get this sensation of my "body" rising out of bed, though it feels nothing like actual physical movement. If I pull it off, I feel like I'm standing right there in my room next to the bed. My "self" isn't where my body is (which, at that moment, I’m not even aware of), and if I start looking around, I see my surroundings from a perspective that definitely doesn't align with where my physical eyes would be. That's the OBE. After that, I usually find myself in some sort of secondary body, exploring the area. Sound familiar?

Gregory Jackson said:Thanks, I always just thought of that as an astral projection thing. I'd love to hear some stories though—like, what did you actually see or where did you end up going?

Perhaps it would be best if I shared an experience of my own first. And since psychologists seem to love insisting that we only truly remember those specific milestones from years ending in a three or a five...
They are wrong.
In my case, I can recall what feels like day zero.
Back then, I could essentially levitate above my bed—and I don't mean an Out-of-body experience, which involves exiting the physical frame, but rather the exact opposite: drifting upward and occasionally sinking back down. I felt more "out" than "in." As for the surroundings? Everything was bathed in blue. Just endless shades of blue.

Paul Ross2 said:Perhaps it would be best if I shared an experience of my own first. And since psychologists seem to love insisting that we only truly remember those specific milestones from years ending in a three or a five...
They are wrong.
In my case, I can recall what feels like day zero.
Back then, I could essentially levitate above my bed—and I don't mean an Out-of-body experience, which involves exiting the physical frame, but rather the exact opposite: drifting upward and occasionally sinking back down. I felt more "out" than "in." As for the surroundings? Everything was bathed in blue. Just endless shades of blue.

Honestly, I get that all the time too. Sometimes everything shifts to yellow, and on the rare occasions when it happens, it’s like this weird, faint brownish tint. It feels exactly like I'm staring through some colored lens or a filter.
Anyone here actually have a clue what might be causing this? 🤔

Drew Moore5 said:That isn't a judgment, though. It's just a fact.

By making this post, you're essentially passing judgment yourself. You're picking a side.

One doesn't take the "opposing side" (the Leadb. side), but rather moves away from the side of God. In other words, one surrenders every judgment to an instance or energy higher than themselves.
That is quite literally the only right thing to do.
Because when you judge someone else, you are actually judging yourself.

Paul Rogers94 said:Image and sound are inseparable—one is born from the understanding gained through the experience of Devahan, and Devahan carries its own specific description: a sun rising over the mountains accompanied by powerful thunder (from a clear sky)—that image belongs to that sound; the sound is inseparable from the image.

I once started a thread titled is the universe real or unreal—here are some of my insights derived directly from that experience, just passing them along for the sake of clarity;

Is the manifest universe real or unreal?
It is neither real nor unreal.
It can only be real or unreal from a limited perspective.
Take, as a parable, the sight of the sun over the mountains.>
Is it rising or setting?
It is either rising or setting only from the viewpoint of the observer.
In itself, the sun knows nothing of rising or setting.
The sun doesn't even know it is the sun (it simply IS).
Conceptualization begins and ends within the mind.
From the "viewpoint" of the Absolute, there are no sunrises or sunsets.
Nor is there any sun that rises or sets.
The story of rising and setting is merely a fabrication.
Just like the story of reality and unreality.
There is nothing that is real or unreal.
Everything simply *is* as it is, without the narrative attached.
From the standpoint of relative consciousness—the standpoint of the mind—it necessarily must be either rising or setting.
The mind "forces" you to adopt a viewpoint, so depending on where you look from, it is either rising or setting.
By its very nature, the mind lacks the capacity to grasp any idea that does not have its opposite.
For the mind, no absolute category exists; it reduces everything to its own level.
Meaning, it must be either real or unreal, either existing or non-existing.
The mind is the universe.
The mind consists of mental contents.
The mind cannot experience absolute reality directly; instead, it perceives it through concepts and ideas.
What we commonly refer to as reality (the manifest universe) is merely our interpretation—the interpretation of the mind.
Directly experienced reality knows nothing of concepts or minds.
From the "standpoint" of the Absolute, there is no compulsion to conceptually define one's viewpoint (and that is precisely the "freedom from" that spirituality actually strives for).
For the Absolute, there are no concepts.
There is no existence or non-existence.
There is no reality or unreality.
There is no absolute or relative.
There is no me and others.

There is nothing to choose, nor is there anyone to do the choosing.
There is no separation from the so-called supreme reality.
Nor is there anyone striving toward it.
Because there is nothing except the supreme reality.
Except we don't know that.

This game of enlightenment is merely a play of the mind.

Consequently, for the mind, there is no such thing as an absolute, and for the Absolute, there is no such thing as a mind.

Everything you've written here is also conceptualization.
Essentially, it is an attempt to conceptualize the Non-conceptual secret.😉

In religion, this is called godlessness: the desire to be more than what you are, to see more than you can, to comprehend more than you have been given.
From your limited perspective, you are trying to reach the Unlimited, to step outside of perspective itself, to exit who you are right here and now by denying both: the Here and the Now...
In doing so, you prevent the Unlimited, Reality, That Which Is, the Truth, the Absolute, etc., from being.

Here is how I see it: the Invisible desired to see itself, but to do so, it had to clothe itself in the Visible. The phenomena of the relative, apparent world are the garments the Invisible donned so it could manifest itself. Thus, the Invisible is simultaneously every one of those garments and every phenomenon of the visible world—and yet, it is none of them.
What you are attempting is to unclothe the Invisible 😬, to strip it of the garment through which it alone can manifest itself, thereby terminating its—or its own—Game.

Is it possible that the Invisible—or Reality itself—is trying to shed its clothing through you?
How can we verify this?
By the results, of course.
Are you actually capable of being neither the garment nor the mind?
No. 😛
Therefore, something else within you is operating—a secondary will running alongside the will of the Invisible. That second force is the ego, and by its very nature, it is powerless against the Invisible. You cannot simply stop using your mind, and even if you manage to do so, you remain tethered to a physical body. This means any "struggle," or even just a simple reluctance toward the mind and body, is unnecessary, unnatural, and predetermined to fail.
Just be what you are—here and now.
Be the Moment.
Be the Illusion.
Be a Limited Point of View—that is, a perspective.
Be a slobby little pet, if that is truly what you want; if that is the specific lens through which the Invisible wishes to observe itself. 🙂

I believe that is the fundamental task and the sole purpose of manifestation: to fully be whatever one is in any given moment.
That is, with the caveat that the most difficult perspective imaginable is the one where the Invisible denies itself. It is the perspective where it plays a game of self-rejection, constructing an ego—an invisible enemy—to attack the very mind and body that serve as its instruments for existing within the relative and manifest world.

Paul Ross2 said:So what’s the actual issue?

Musical consonance usually boils down to ratios of small integers. Now, 4.056879877? That isn't a ratio of small integers.
A minor second is 16:15, a major second is 9:8, a major seventh is 16:9, and a minor seventh is 15:8. Then there’s the tritone—a staple in American jazz—which is 45/32, supposedly forbidden by the Church during the Middle Ages, who went as far as labeling it the "DEMONIC INTERVAL."

Here is another video regarding that notorious tritone (which some people claim is the soul of jazz, if not blues itself):

(At the 5:50 mark, the guy explains why it sounds dissonant, essentially describing the concept of SMALL INTEGER ratios in his own way—for instance, how 3:2 (a fifth) sounds consonant compared to something like sqrt(2)/1. Since sqrt(2) isn't an integer, you might approximate that ratio as 14:10 or 7:5, or even 45:32, given that 1.40625 is quite close to the square root of 2—we are talking about a difference only in the third decimal place here).

And now we arrive at the real question: why does our brain—or our ear—crave these small integer ratios? I won't be answering that, because frankly, the truth would likely disappoint most of you.

Is it just nerves...? 🙄

I can't recall exactly where I read this—it was ages ago—but there was a theory that the entire process of development and evolution actually serves one purpose: to strengthen and refine the nervous system.
It's almost as if the nerve is the core essence, the fundamental conductor, the sensory organ through which we receive the divine or the soul.

On a side note: I read Steiner a long time ago, and back then, he was a balm for my naive soul; I loved every sentence, the rhythm, the flow, the gentleness, and the ideas that felt like medicine and a breath of fresh air at the time...
I went back to read him today after several decades of silence, and honestly, it feels like I'm just spinning in circles ;( He repeats the same thing from the start to the end of the text, circling around the title as if it were an absolute claim, but he doesn't actually support that claim with any arguments. He just restates it in different ways... it's like a lullaby... or as if he's trying to hypnotize me into a state of mild resentment toward whatever his claim is. He puts me into a trance when what I am actually doing is waiting, hunting for something to feed my mind—something to give me information, actual substance I can chew on... instead, he just tosses me a bone to gnaw on, ensuring at least my teeth 😎 stay safe, and my jaw doesn't have to work too hard... there isn't much thinking involved... (you've probably heard Plečkov's assertion that a clenched jaw goes hand-in-hand with so-called "brain activity": deliberately relax your jaw and you'll shatter your usual grueling stream of thought... you break the elements 🙂

The body is a marvel.

Sorry for the tangent.

Why do we love "small integer ratios"?

(Does anyone else immediately think of the Fibonacci sequence and the golden ratio when they hear that?)

Gregory Jackson said:Thanks, I’ll definitely give that a look. I’m really hoping Rinpoche goes a bit deeper than just the immediate post-mortem stuff, and honestly, I’m crossing my fingers that the language isn't too heavily tied to strict Buddhist terminology—otherwise, I might be stuck hovering over a dictionary the whole time.

I'm mostly curious about the actual roadmap of progress after we leave this material life, you know? Like, the whole process of moving through various astral planes after death while working through the exhaustion of desires, eventually hitting that second death, reaching Devachan, and all that good stuff... basically, what life and development actually look like in those spaces between incarnations.

On an intellectual and informational level, the best explanations I've found came from Tibetan teachings (The Book of Life and Death) and Steiner’s lectures regarding the interval between death and rebirth.👍

Later, I "supplemented" that knowledge with certain pieces of so-called angelic literature😁—specifically the works of Barbara B. Brennan. Her perspective felt credible to me precisely because she approaches things as a physicist. I’ve never been able to resonate with those gurus from the East; I’ve always gravitated toward Western thinkers. It makes me wonder if I was simply "learning" through a different channel back then.🙄

Charles Wood73 said:True enough. Lucid dreamers know they’re dreaming, astral travelers believe they’re in the astral realm, shamans claim to be wandering through one of three or nine different worlds, and partygoers know they managed to score some top-shelf stuff this time around... meanwhile, anthropologists will tell you the difference isn't found in the insight or the sensation itself, but rather in the cultural framework used to label it. 😬

I can wrap my head around all of them, except for the folks who blindly follow Leadbeater and his crowd instead of just trying things out for themselves to see what’s actually there. A gram of practice is worth more than a ton of theory.

🤣

Charles Wood73 said:True enough. Lucid dreamers know they’re dreaming, astral travelers believe they’re in the astral realm, shamans claim to be wandering through one of three or nine different worlds, and partygoers know they managed to score some top-shelf stuff this time around... meanwhile, anthropologists will tell you the difference isn't found in the insight or the sensation itself, but rather in the cultural framework used to label it. 😬

I can wrap my head around all of them, except for the folks who blindly follow Leadbeater and his crowd instead of just trying things out for themselves to see what’s actually there. A gram of practice is worth more than a ton of theory.

👍

Sandra Murphy33 said:Is it just nerves...? 🙄

I can't recall exactly where I read this—it was ages ago—but there was a theory that the entire process of development and evolution actually serves one purpose: to strengthen and refine the nervous system.
It's almost as if the nerve is the core essence, the fundamental conductor, the sensory organ through which we receive the divine or the soul.

On a side note: I read Steiner a long time ago, and back then, he was a balm for my naive soul; I loved every sentence, the rhythm, the flow, the gentleness, and the ideas that felt like medicine and a breath of fresh air at the time...
I went back to read him today after several decades of silence, and honestly, it feels like I'm just spinning in circles ;( He repeats the same thing from the start to the end of the text, circling around the title as if it were an absolute claim, but he doesn't actually support that claim with any arguments. He just restates it in different ways... it's like a lullaby... or as if he's trying to hypnotize me into a state of mild resentment toward whatever his claim is. He puts me into a trance when what I am actually doing is waiting, hunting for something to feed my mind—something to give me information, actual substance I can chew on... instead, he just tosses me a bone to gnaw on, ensuring at least my teeth 😎 stay safe, and my jaw doesn't have to work too hard... there isn't much thinking involved... (you've probably heard Plečkov's assertion that a clenched jaw goes hand-in-hand with so-called "brain activity": deliberately relax your jaw and you'll shatter your usual grueling stream of thought... you break the elements 🙂

The body is a marvel.

Sorry for the tangent.

Why do we love "small integer ratios"?

(Does anyone else immediately think of the Fibonacci sequence and the golden ratio when they hear that?)

Addressing this requires a lengthy explanation. I will provide one detailed response.
Broadly speaking, ratios of small numbers distribute impacts across a wide frequency spectrum, ensuring they don't mask specific frequency ranges. Masking—or shadowing—is dangerous in nature because it renders us deaf to certain noises that could signal an attacker. Something along those lines; beyond that, it’s simply training our neural networks to fundamentally dislike being struck.

To touch upon one aspect of the impact: wave propagation, including sound, is described by differential equations. A harmonic oscillator—which is the basis for all musical instruments—is described by a simple second-order differential equation (the so-called harmonic oscillator equation).
With linear differential equations, it holds true that the sum of solutions is also a solution, as is the difference of solutions.

If we have two tones, we will hear both their sums and their differences. In reality, we won't hear the sums, as they would likely end up extremely high, even in the ultrasonic range, but we certainly hear the differences.
If two tones are very close together, that difference is small. And it is this difference that we perceive as an impact.
An impact can completely destroy the sonic image of everything else, effectively making us insensitive to things occurring around us.

I won't go further there... that leads into logarithms, and then why we possess logarithmic senses...

But let's look at the Fibonacci sequence.
As we know, it looks like this: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144...

In truth, however, it is a discrete analog to the exponential function. It possesses similar properties. What constitutes a difference in discrete terms is what constitutes a derivative (the ratio of differentials) in continuous ones. Thus, if we differentiate an exponential function, we arrive back at an exponential function.
If we create gnomons (the first differences, the differences of neighbors) of the Fibonacci sequence, we simply get the Fibonacci sequence again.
Our senses are logarithmic—or rather, inverse-exponential—waveguides. Sound travels best when impedance differences are adjusted via an exponential horn. This is why trumpets, vintage gramophone needles, and even modern high end audio systems utilize exponential horns.

This is why Fibonacci appears here. Naturally, his golden ratio is represented everywhere in nature, and the reason is the avoidance of crowding. When something grows—for instance, sunflower seeds expanding from the center outward—they expand, but so do the ones surrounding them. It cannot happen that they bunch up in one spot in space. It is optimal for them to expand such that each new one arrives at the so-called golden angle. You derive this angle by taking the golden ratio of 360°: 360/phi = 222.49°. However, that leans too far to one side, so we take the smaller angle from the other side, which is 360 - 222.49 = 137.5°. That is the golden angle.
When seeds grow such that each new one appears at the center at 137.5° relative to the previous one, they will, as they grow, experience minimal crowding.
The result: patterns known as Phyllotaxis spirals. We see them everywhere—in flowers, on pinecones, and so on.

If you count the spirals moving right versus those moving left, you'll find that those numbers are simply two consecutive terms in the Fibonacci sequence.

Essentially, the Fibonacci sequence itself serves as a template for what we might call asymmetrical growth. For instance:
Imagine splitting something down the middle. You start with 1 on the left and 1 on the right.
Now, suppose you continue dividing, but with a delay—an asymmetry.
You divide the left side, while the right side lags behind, remaining undivided for a moment.
Now you have 2 on the left and 1 on the right.
Next, you split one part of the left side while the other part waits; meanwhile, the right side finally catches up because its turn to be divided has arrived. Now you're looking at 3 on the left and 2 on the right.
Continuing this pattern of staggered division, you’ll reach 5 on the left and 3 on the right.
Then 8 on the left and 5 on the right. It's quite clear that the right side is always playing catch-up.
If you follow this logic far enough, you realize you are constructing the Fibonacci sequences.
Furthermore, the ratios—2:1, 3:2, 5:3, 8:5, 13:8, and so on—all converge toward the Golden Ratio.

The Golden Ratio is derived from the formula (1+sqrt(5))/2, which yields approximately 1.618033989.

Deriving this formula isn't particularly difficult:
when you divide something such that the ratio of the larger part to the smaller part is the same as the ratio of the whole to the larger part—that is, b:a = (a+b):b—it becomes easy to demonstrate that this leads to a quadratic equation whose solutions are the Golden Ratio and its inverse.
That is to say, 1.618 and 0.618.
The value 1.618 is roughly 1.666, which corresponds to a 4:3 ratio, while 0.618 is close to 2:3.
We are essentially dealing with thirds here. This explains why the "rule of thirds" is so vital in American fine arts, as the Golden Ratio can be approximated using these thirds.
It goes without saying that in music, a 4:3 ratio produces a perfect fourth, which sounds harmonious. A 3:2 ratio produces a fifth, which is equally consonant.

Historically, the Greeks developed a vast array of intervals based on these small integer ratios, turning it into a legitimate spiritual science. This brings to mind what Ghika once remarked: "The harmony of the sirens is like a planetary broadcast of the harmony of the spheres."

I am quoting this from a forum, though it is also found in Matila Ghika's book, *Philosophy and Mysticism of Number*:

Actually, within those harmonic analyses provided two pages ago, he is describing the Pythagorean concept of the TETRACHORD LYRE. The Tetrachord Lyre wasn't a practical musical instrument meant for daily performance, but rather a conceptual one. It was an instrument with equally tensioned strings of lengths 6, 8, 9, and 12, through which it was possible to derive all proportions and most musical intervals. To the Pythagoreans, the concept of the tetractys held divine significance (which is why, in prayer, they would say: "You who created both Gods and men").

The tetractys is typically visualized as ten spheres arranged in a "pyramid" or triangle configuration, consisting of 4, 3, 2, and 1 spheres (with 4 in the base row, followed by 3, then 2, and finally 1 at the apex).

If anyone finds this interesting, feel free to read—if not, just skip it; it might be a bit tedious:

An arithmetic ratio—which is essentially comparing two measurable quantities—is a specific instance of a standard logical operation. That operation involves:
1° Perceiving the functional relationship or the hierarchy of values between two objects.
2° Distinguishing or comparing those values, whether qualitatively or quantitatively.

If the ratio serves as a quantitative measure, it takes the form and properties of an arithmetic or algebraic fraction, $a/b$.
A proportion is simply the equivalence of two ratios—an analogous relationship between two comparisons, namely $a/b = c/d$.
A geometric proportion can consist of any number of terms:
a) A discontinuous proportion where $a/b = c/d = e/f = \dots$
b) A continuous proportion where $a/b = b/c = c/d \dots$

The ratio $a/b$ could be compound $(a+b)/b$, divided $(a-b)/b$, or inverted $a/(a-b)$.
From these, one can construct ten distinct types of proportions:
1° Multiple proportions.
2° Superparticular (the whole plus a part of the whole, divided by the whole), for example:
- Sesquialtera $(x + 1/2x)/x$ (a fifth)
- Sesquitertial $(x + 1/3x)/x$ (a fourth)
3° Superbipartite (the whole plus two parts of the whole, divided by the whole)—$5/3$.
Supertripartite (the whole plus three parts of the whole, divided by the whole)—$7/4$.
4° Multiple superparticular, such as:
Double sesquialtera $(2x+1/2x)/x$
Triple sesquialtera $(3x+1/2x)/x$
5° Multiple superbipartite.
6° - 10° Their respective inversions, such as submultiple...
The Pythagoreans back in Sicily had already established the three most significant types of proportions that can be expressed algebraically as:
$b-a = d-c$ — arithmetic proportion ($1, 2, 3$)
$a/b = c/d$ — continuous geometric ($1, 2, 4$)
$1/b - 1/a = 1/d - 1/c$ — harmonic ($2, 3, 6$)
These three proportions can be represented as:
$(c-b)/(b-a) = c/c = 1$
$(c-b)/(b-a) = c/b$
$(c-b)/(b-a) = c/a$
Alongside these, there remain seven others:
$(b-a)/(c-b) = c/a$ ($3, 5, 6$)
$(c-a)/(c-b) = c/a$ ($6, 7, 9$)
$(b-a)/(c-b) = b/a$ ($2, 4, 5$)
$(c-a)/(b-a) = b/a$ ($4, 6, 7$)
$(b-a)/(c-b) = c/b$ ($1, 4, 6$)
$(c-a)/(c-b) = b/a$ ($3, 5, 8$) — Fibonacci
$(c-a)/(b-a) = c/a$
---
The relationship between the means and the extremes:
Arithmetic mean: $(a+b)/2$
Geometric mean: $\sqrt{a \cdot b}$
Harmonic mean: $2ab / (a+b) = 2 / (1/a + 1/b)$

George Wood2 said:These explorations into unusual "out-of-body" consciousness phenomena are quite intriguing. Perhaps someone here might possess insight regarding the process of separating from one's physical form while in a state of full wakefulness, with eyes wide open. It felt almost like a mere overture to everything that followed.

To provide context, thirteen years ago, I was sitting outdoors in nature, simply waiting for the workday to conclude. About half an hour prior, I experienced a peculiar sensation—a strange feeling that something was about to occur.
I wasn't dwelling on any specific thoughts; I was merely relaxing and observing the landscape and the distant islands from a pine-covered clearing.
Suddenly, I felt myself slowly sliding out of my physical body toward the right side. I reached a point where I was halfway out. It was a completely conscious "slipping" away from the physical vessel, which remained entirely static.
The "entity" that emerged from the physical body was translucent, ethereal, and perhaps the most weightless sensation I have ever experienced through any form of consciousness. It was akin to direct perception without the need to reflect upon what was being observed. Pure consciousness, nothing more.

After several minutes, a progressively stronger pulling force began to act upon the physical part of my body, dragging me back toward my previous "normal" state. It was as if the physical body alone cannot sustain itself for long without what we might call a carrier, and without this "consciousness" of the physical form, the body cannot truly be conscious. Perhaps the body would simply become a zombie. But what would happen to a conscious body?
This persisted well into the evening, characterized by this incessant tugging as the body sought to pull my conscious self—which is essentially who I am—back into the integrated, default setting of a complete human being. It was a surreal experience to walk and drive my car home 🤣 feeling separated. Someone would undoubtedly describe it as being distracted. 😉

I do not consume any intoxicants, nor do I use any drugs. 🤣
From a psychological or psychiatric standpoint, this experience caused no harm to my mind or body, aside from providing a profound perception and a different perspective when viewing life outside of man's material and intellectual planes.

Does anyone happen to have information regarding a similar experience?

Your Ego core (Steiner) shifted away from your physical body along with the etheric and astral layers (though you remained present as an observer...), but it likely snapped back, pulled by that famous silver cord that "links" and holds the various bodily levels together. 🙂

I have always had memories of having my tonsils removed when I was four years old. To me, it was perfectly normal to remember the surgical mask, the scalpels, the gloved hands, and so on—until I grew up and learned that, theoretically, you aren't supposed to remember anything that happens while under anesthesia.

Sandra Murphy33 said:Your Ego core (Steiner) shifted away from your physical body along with the etheric and astral layers (though you remained present as an observer...), but it likely snapped back, pulled by that famous silver cord that "links" and holds the various bodily levels together. 🙂

I have always had memories of having my tonsils removed when I was four years old. To me, it was perfectly normal to remember the surgical mask, the scalpels, the gloved hands, and so on—until I grew up and learned that, theoretically, you aren't supposed to remember anything that happens while under anesthesia.

Then there is my own experience: I clearly remember my brother's wife's stomach when she was pregnant with my nephew, who is only eighteen months younger than me. And I remember it as a moment of total, conscious awareness—not some hazy dream, but something far removed from that initial, fleeting moment.

Paul Ross2
Thanks for that deep dive into the relationship between numbers and music. Even if I don't quite grasp it on the first pass, I plan to sit with it and go through it several times. I’ll be leaning on my right brain—which moves slower but feels more accessible 😉—to help make sense of it all, hopefully triggering some intuition to stir up what’s already buried deep within the rapid, logical cells of my left hemisphere...

Since everything is interconnected—where numbers can be heard, sounds can be smelled, and images can be felt—I'm convinced that truth (which is essentially beauty and goodness combined; the same vibration expressed through different mediums) acts upon us even if we don't consciously understand it. Or even if we can't provide a rational explanation for why it feels so beneficial.

darkraven said:Honestly, I get that all the time too. Sometimes everything shifts to yellow, and on the rare occasions when it happens, it’s like this weird, faint brownish tint. It feels exactly like I'm staring through some colored lens or a filter.
Anyone here actually have a clue what might be causing this? 🤔

That’s just a sign that you aren't in Kansas anymore. 😬

Maybe it's sepia? You know, those lower realms, or perhaps a longing for the past. Or blue on blue... that whole "dreamtime" concept where reality exists before material creation even begins, blending the past, present, and future into one. I’ve heard people talk about shamanic patterns, though I wouldn't know much about theosophical stuff.

Paul Ross2 said:If anyone finds this interesting, feel free to read—if not, just skip it; it might be a bit tedious:

An arithmetic ratio—which is essentially comparing two measurable quantities—is a specific instance of a standard logical operation. That operation involves:
1° Perceiving the functional relationship or the hierarchy of values between two objects.
2° Distinguishing or comparing those values, whether qualitatively or quantitatively.

If the ratio serves as a quantitative measure, it takes the form and properties of an arithmetic or algebraic fraction, $a/b$.
A proportion is simply the equivalence of two ratios—an analogous relationship between two comparisons, namely $a/b = c/d$.
A geometric proportion can consist of any number of terms:
a) A discontinuous proportion where $a/b = c/d = e/f = \dots$
b) A continuous proportion where $a/b = b/c = c/d \dots$

The ratio $a/b$ could be compound $(a+b)/b$, divided $(a-b)/b$, or inverted $a/(a-b)$.
From these, one can construct ten distinct types of proportions:
1° Multiple proportions.
2° Superparticular (the whole plus a part of the whole, divided by the whole), for example:
- Sesquialtera $(x + 1/2x)/x$ (a fifth)
- Sesquitertial $(x + 1/3x)/x$ (a fourth)
3° Superbipartite (the whole plus two parts of the whole, divided by the whole)—$5/3$.
Supertripartite (the whole plus three parts of the whole, divided by the whole)—$7/4$.
4° Multiple superparticular, such as:
Double sesquialtera $(2x+1/2x)/x$
Triple sesquialtera $(3x+1/2x)/x$
5° Multiple superbipartite.
6° - 10° Their respective inversions, such as submultiple...
The Pythagoreans back in Sicily had already established the three most significant types of proportions that can be expressed algebraically as:
$b-a = d-c$ — arithmetic proportion ($1, 2, 3$)
$a/b = c/d$ — continuous geometric ($1, 2, 4$)
$1/b - 1/a = 1/d - 1/c$ — harmonic ($2, 3, 6$)
These three proportions can be represented as:
$(c-b)/(b-a) = c/c = 1$
$(c-b)/(b-a) = c/b$
$(c-b)/(b-a) = c/a$
Alongside these, there remain seven others:
$(b-a)/(c-b) = c/a$ ($3, 5, 6$)
$(c-a)/(c-b) = c/a$ ($6, 7, 9$)
$(b-a)/(c-b) = b/a$ ($2, 4, 5$)
$(c-a)/(b-a) = b/a$ ($4, 6, 7$)
$(b-a)/(c-b) = c/b$ ($1, 4, 6$)
$(c-a)/(c-b) = b/a$ ($3, 5, 8$) — Fibonacci
$(c-a)/(b-a) = c/a$
---
The relationship between the means and the extremes:
Arithmetic mean: $(a+b)/2$
Geometric mean: $\sqrt{a \cdot b}$
Harmonic mean: $2ab / (a+b) = 2 / (1/a + 1/b)$

Up until this point, I suppose everything I’ve read from you regarding the intersection of music and mathematics has been focused on the numerical side of things. You know, numbers, ratios, quantitative data... you’ve mentioned before that math is a spiritual discipline just as much as music is, and that viewing mathematics through an exclusively numerical lens is quite limiting, which I think is a very fair point. I wonder, though, if you could perhaps elaborate on that more? Could you try to bridge that spiritual dimension of mathematics with the spiritual essence found in music?

Or maybe looking at it this way: take a solo by Charlie Parker, let's say this one again:



Is there a way to analyze this using mathematics? I mean, why does it resonate so deeply? To my ears, I hear these completely unpredictable rhythms; in those faster passages, he seems to be playing slightly ahead of the beat, then lagging behind, or sometimes he just 'swallows' a note, implying it without actually playing it. He finds this rhythmic unpredictability by varying his dynamics and accents, yet somehow, the whole thing remains perfectly in pocket... it feels more like a language to me. Parker isn't just playing notes; he’s speaking and singing. He’s conveying a message, a spiritual message, and I guess that’s why it sounds so incredible. What kind of mathematics would you even use to analyze something like that?

I'm genuinely curious, so I figured I'd ask. 🙂

And yeah, I realize this is a bit off-topic, but if we allow ourselves a slightly broader interpretation, I really believe it ties back into spirituality, and perhaps even into Theosophy.