A - Austria

The standard of living over in Germany is actually sliding—people are working way harder just to stay at the same pay grade. There’s this massive shift toward temporary gigs and mini-jobs lately, while steady, full-time positions are becoming pretty rare... Merkel 👎

Mark Harris66 said:The standard of living over in Germany is actually sliding—people are working way harder just to stay at the same pay grade. There’s this massive shift toward temporary gigs and mini-jobs lately, while steady, full-time positions are becoming pretty rare... Merkel 👎

So, it’s pretty much the same story across most of the Western world. The economy grows, wealth increases, living standards go up, and people live longer... but the average person doesn't really see any of those benefits. You might point the finger at Merkel, but I think it's just how our version of capitalism works.

Nathan Morris3 said:So, it’s pretty much the same story across most of the Western world. The economy grows, wealth increases, living standards go up, and people live longer... but the average person doesn't really see any of those benefits. You might point the finger at Merkel, but I think it's just how our version of capitalism works.

There’s an old saying about this—whether someone is truly a thief if they just happen to be holding the ladder while the crime happens.
People don't buy that excuse anymore—the idea that the guy holding the ladder just happened to be standing there, or that he accidentally stumbled upon a thief and decided to take advantage of the situation—it just doesn't fly with the public anymore🙂. You can see that frustration reflected in Brexit, and honestly, even in the recent elections in the USA
. In those cases, the population felt backed into a corner where they had to choose the high-risk option—essentially picking a candidate whose very actions seem completely irrational🙂.

Scott Rodriguez19 said:There’s an old saying about this—whether someone is truly a thief if they just happen to be holding the ladder while the crime happens.
People don't buy that excuse anymore—the idea that the guy holding the ladder just happened to be standing there, or that he accidentally stumbled upon a thief and decided to take advantage of the situation—it just doesn't fly with the public anymore🙂. You can see that frustration reflected in Brexit, and honestly, even in the recent elections in the USA
. In those cases, the population felt backed into a corner where they had to choose the high-risk option—essentially picking a candidate whose very actions seem completely irrational🙂.

Scott Rodriguez19, I don't really have a glowing opinion of Merkel either. I mean, it's easy to say that under Merkel, Germany didn't send any less weaponry to Islamists than what happened here in America. But I think it's crazy that Merkel is being attacked not because of the actual arming of extremists or destabilization, but because she actually tried to help those people. Sure, mistakes were made, and a lot of shady characters slipped into the government, which obviously isn't good. But you have to wonder about someone's character when they attack an attempt at humanitarian aid instead of attacking destruction itself. So, your whole hyperbole about the thief and the guy holding the ladder—knowing full well the thief is stealing—is kind of a miss to me. You seem "worried" about what's happening in Germany, but with the way values seem to be shifting on this Forum, problems in Germany are probably the least of it. This kind of mainstream shortsightedness is doing way more damage to Europe and European values than migrants ever could.

If Merkel actually wanted to help, she would’ve started by separating actual refugees from economic migrants right out of the gate.

Instead, she just threw everyone into one giant pile. She flooded the country with all sorts of people, and ironically, the ones who actually needed support didn't even get decent living conditions or a shot at real integration.

Now they’re stuck in makeshift shelters like cattle. By treating everyone exactly the same, she screwed over the true refugees and stripped away whatever dignity they had left.

Even women are dealing with harassment and sexual assaults in those shared housing facilities.

That whole "humanitarian" image Merkel tries to project? It’s a total joke.

How many Syrians are actually in Germany versus the crowd just looking for a way to exploit the system?

wanderingbadger77 said:If Merkel actually wanted to help, she would’ve started by separating actual refugees from economic migrants right out of the gate.

Instead, she just threw everyone into one giant pile. She flooded the country with all sorts of people, and ironically, the ones who actually needed support didn't even get decent living conditions or a shot at real integration.

Now they’re stuck in makeshift shelters like cattle. By treating everyone exactly the same, she screwed over the true refugees and stripped away whatever dignity they had left.

Even women are dealing with harassment and sexual assaults in those shared housing facilities.

That whole "humanitarian" image Merkel tries to project? It’s a total joke.

How many Syrians are actually in Germany versus the crowd just looking for a way to exploit the system?

A lot of people definitely jumped at the chance, I’m not even trying to deny that or downplay it.
I guess what I mean is we talk way too much about the fallout and not enough about why things happened in the first place. Like, why isn't anyone calling out Merkel for destabilizing entire regions or sending over weapons and all that crap? It's easy to say we don't give a fuck when "we" are the ones actively helping create the chaos, the deaths, and the displacement. It only seems to matter once that mess shows up on our own doorstep. And then, even when it does arrive, we still won't face the root causes—we just panic about the results instead of asking, "hey, why did we destabilize that area to begin with?" I suppose that's the kind of short-sightedness I'm talking about.

lee_chan said:And who exactly ever asked "us" anything, I guess?
So, what exactly are "we" doing? I guess we’d just be doing the same thing "they" would do if they were actually in charge. Maybe.

I guess you see what I mean... there isn't really an "us" or a "them." Global interests just sort of crush everyone underfoot without anyone ever asking us how we feel about it. Maybe.

I totally agree. I guess the world would just be a better place if we directed all that energy spent fighting "welcome culture" toward stopping the actual destruction and instability that causes migration in the first place. It’s kind of like how people went after Ante Gotovina over the shelling in Denver, instead of calling out the fact that the territory was occupied and had to be liberated to begin with. You know, cause and effect...

Off-topic.
I wonder when the United States might finally open up its labor market to Americans?
Or maybe Mexicans. I guess.
We're pretty good when it comes to guarding the border, I guess, but after that... maybe not so much.

Yeah, I guess we're pretty good at picking up weapons and getting our hands dirty when it actually counts.

Based on that 2+3+2 rule, I guess the deadlines would be July 1, 2015, July 1, 2018, and July 1, 2020. So, maybe nothing will actually happen until July 1, 2018... it could easily be the big day then, I suppose.

First off, let me clarify—my comments regarding Angela Merkel weren't some personal attack; they were simply an objective assessment of the situation. Second, I never explicitly stated that my critique was limited to her recent policy blunders concerning the migrant crisis. What unfolded in Germany back in 2015 wasn't solely the fault of Angela Merkel herself—it was really the result of total incompetence from the entire German political leadership over the course of a decade.
I mean, look—they’re getting paid, right? That much is obvious. But the real question I'm struggling with here is... what exactly are they doing to earn it?

Nathan Morris3 said:Scott Rodriguez19, I don't really have a glowing opinion of Merkel either. I mean, it's easy to say that under Merkel, Germany didn't send any less weaponry to Islamists than what happened here in America. But I think it's crazy that Merkel is being attacked not because of the actual arming of extremists or destabilization, but because she actually tried to help those people. Sure, mistakes were made, and a lot of shady characters slipped into the government, which obviously isn't good. But you have to wonder about someone's character when they attack an attempt at humanitarian aid instead of attacking destruction itself. So, your whole hyperbole about the thief and the guy holding the ladder—knowing full well the thief is stealing—is kind of a miss to me. You seem "worried" about what's happening in Germany, but with the way values seem to be shifting on this Forum, problems in Germany are probably the least of it. This kind of mainstream shortsightedness is doing way more damage to Europe and European values than migrants ever could.

The lion's share of the actual support for these refugees is coming straight from the German people—it’s their money funding the whole operation. Let's be clear: Angela Merkel isn't exactly sitting in her penthouse making these massive humanitarian contributions out of her own pocket. In my estimation, if you're looking for her personal credit in this matter, it's sitting at a flat zero.
She was just looking for any excuse to throw Theresa under the bus.

Nathan Morris3 said:Scott Rodriguez19, I don't really have a glowing opinion of Merkel either. I mean, it's easy to say that under Merkel, Germany didn't send any less weaponry to Islamists than what happened here in America. But I think it's crazy that Merkel is being attacked not because of the actual arming of extremists or destabilization, but because she actually tried to help those people. Sure, mistakes were made, and a lot of shady characters slipped into the government, which obviously isn't good. But you have to wonder about someone's character when they attack an attempt at humanitarian aid instead of attacking destruction itself. So, your whole hyperbole about the thief and the guy holding the ladder—knowing full well the thief is stealing—is kind of a miss to me. You seem "worried" about what's happening in Germany, but with the way values seem to be shifting on this Forum, problems in Germany are probably the least of it. This kind of mainstream shortsightedness is doing way more damage to Europe and European values than migrants ever could.

Comparing this to a thief and the person holding the ladder for him—while knowing full well that the guy is actually stealing—doesn't quite capture the nuances of what's happening here. I mean, it’s an okay starting point, I guess, but it misses the mark on the actual complexity of the situation.
It would be only fair—and frankly, common sense—to establish whether he was actually holding the ladder, or if that thief of a gardener was working directly for the very person being robbed.

Nathan Morris3 said:I totally agree. I guess the world would just be a better place if we directed all that energy spent fighting "welcome culture" toward stopping the actual destruction and instability that causes migration in the first place. It’s kind of like how people went after Ante Gotovina over the shelling in Denver, instead of calling out the fact that the territory was occupied and had to be liberated to begin with. You know, cause and effect...

Off-topic.
I wonder when the United States might finally open up its labor market to Americans?
Or maybe Mexicans. I guess.
We're pretty good when it comes to guarding the border, I guess, but after that... maybe not so much.

Yeah, I guess we're pretty good at picking up weapons and getting our hands dirty when it actually counts.

Based on that 2+3+2 rule, I guess the deadlines would be July 1, 2015, July 1, 2018, and July 1, 2020. So, maybe nothing will actually happen until July 1, 2018... it could easily be the big day then, I suppose.

Everyone will just tell you, "I know, but what can I actually do?" and honestly, they aren't wrong.
Aren't people actually less concerned with a "welcome culture" and more bothered by individuals who refuse to integrate, fail to contribute, drain public resources, and create unnecessary headaches for the average citizen?

You mentioned earlier that there are certain neighborhoods in cities like Vienna that you personally avoid—so why on earth would you care about them? Who are these people to you?

If this continues, we’ll just end up with ghettos everywhere; it’s basically the Americanization of the European Union.

If they could just behave with even a shred of common sense, that would be enough.
But instead, they go out of their way to make things difficult.

I was asking about work permits because I recall some politician in the US or perhaps Europe saying something along the lines of migrants being granted work authorization, all while one specific member of the European Union is still restricted from accessing that same market, at least not fully.
What is the current status of that? Are they legally allowed to work, and if so, under what conditions?

Gerald Palmer66 said:Everyone will just tell you, "I know, but what can I actually do?" and honestly, they aren't wrong.
Aren't people actually less concerned with a "welcome culture" and more bothered by individuals who refuse to integrate, fail to contribute, drain public resources, and create unnecessary headaches for the average citizen?

You mentioned earlier that there are certain neighborhoods in cities like Vienna that you personally avoid—so why on earth would you care about them? Who are these people to you?

If this continues, we’ll just end up with ghettos everywhere; it’s basically the Americanization of the European Union.

If they could just behave with even a shred of common sense, that would be enough.
But instead, they go out of their way to make things difficult.

I was asking about work permits because I recall some politician in the US or perhaps Europe saying something along the lines of migrants being granted work authorization, all while one specific member of the European Union is still restricted from accessing that same market, at least not fully.
What is the current status of that? Are they legally allowed to work, and if so, under what conditions?

I think Austria's problem is actually a bit tougher than Germany's because the more educated people tended to choose Germany, so Austria mostly got the less educated ones. But I'm not just talking about this recent wave, but the last 20 years or so. I personally noticed a shift when Romanians and Bulgarians started arriving, though it's hard to say how much is perception versus reality since I've never been a victim of crime myself. A few stolen bikes isn't really a big deal, that's just part of life here😁. But it started with those thefts and break-ins as the EU expanded; certain gangs from the old regions operate differently, but then you have some groups, maybe from Afghanistan or Vietnam, at the bottom of the drug chain, or Afghans struggling with tribal customs, etc. Regarding integration, my gut feeling is that Chinese, Afghan, and Black people from Central or South Africa struggle the most. There are all kinds of others, so I won't generalize too much.

Austria is officially neutral, and I haven't felt any specific fear regarding terrorism, but you never know. Anyway, more people have died from terrorism in Europe, but it feels louder now, mostly because of the media. Overall, I feel pretty safe in Austria, and even back in the US, there were always rougher neighborhoods without having seen major migration shifts over the last two decades.

Not trying to split hairs, but terms matter. I'm actually a migrant who received a work permit myself. You're probably thinking of this newer wave. The thing is, it isn't realistic to expect anyone—regardless of culture—to integrate if you let them into the country, keep them stuck in a house, and don't give them a chance to socialize or work... so, without providing work opportunities, things might just get worse. So the challenge is likely getting people working without taking jobs away from locals. I haven't followed the news closely so I can't say for sure, but I remember hearing about "$1 jobs." It seems better for people to work at something rather than sitting at home or idling around, which usually leads to trouble. Those $1 jobs were probably things like cleaning their own homes or surroundings—stuff that helps them without hurting anyone. It sounds okay, but I'm not sure how much it actually helps if they're still just hanging out among their own people; I don't see how that leads to integration. From my own experience, integration definitely doesn't happen if you only hang out with people from your own background.

http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-a...attacks-2017-1

So, what's the word on the street from our friends over in Austria? Like, what are people actually saying about this stuff back in Austria?

Paul Sanders5 said:http://www.businessinsider.com/afp-a...attacks-2017-1

So, what's the word on the street from our friends over in Austria? Like, what are people actually saying about this stuff back in Austria?

This is the first I'm seeing of it; frankly, stories like this rarely make the headlines in American newspapers, let alone spark any real conversation.

rapidhawk2 said:This is the first I'm seeing of it; frankly, stories like this rarely make the headlines in American newspapers, let alone spark any real conversation.

Which media outlets are you thinking of? The BBC and the Standard actually covered this just a few days ago. But, I guess girls have probably just become more cautious overall, and there's more police presence too.

I mean, maybe there isn't a need to have every single instance of someone being groped on the front page for two days straight. It's tough for the police to watch every group of drunk teenagers, and crowds always seem risky in that regard. Someone gets harassed, someone gets slapped, or someone gets robbed.

The worst ones are definitely the rapes. I think there were three of those in Cologne last year during New Year's Eve—not sure about previous years—but it feels like things might be a bit better this year.

http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/05/s...lts-in-austria

Check this out... 🤷

Alongside Italy, Germany, and Japan, Austria stands as one of the nations with the oldest populations in the world.

Well, look—in Austria, much like everywhere else across the developed West, the demographic landscape is shifting quite rapidly... For instance, according to data from early 2016, Austria had over half a million people belonging to the first or second generation from former states, plus roughly 330,000 Turkish individuals (again, first and second generations).

However, since birth rates aren't high enough anywhere to actually replenish these Western European nations, they have to increasingly lean on non-European countries—with the exception of Turkey, which is a legacy player when it comes to migration patterns.

Just looking at the numbers: between 2014 and 2015, Austria saw 214,410 immigrants enter while 101,343 emigrated, leaving a net migration of 113,067... I mention all immigrants specifically because the number of actual "Austrians" is quite small; regardless of where they come from, they are expected to adapt. The year prior, net migration was +72,324. These are massive shifts that are only going to accelerate.

In 2015 alone, there were 100,000 newcomers with foreign roots. To maintain current living standards, these numbers will likely continue to climb, which inevitably brings certain consequences along with it...

For context, the percentage of people without Austrian citizenship was 8.9% back in 2001, whereas by 2011, it had hit 10.9%... A 2% increase, which isn't particularly huge.

But then, by the start of 2016, that figure jumped to 14.6%... That’s a significantly steeper increase over a five-year span—and that doesn't even account for those who have been naturalized.

Vienna, for one, has seen a total demographic slump; I know there are a vast number of foreigners there, including people from our neck of the woods who also suffer from low fertility rates. That said, the Turkish population has dropped below the level of native Austrians, as have many other foreign groups. Not to dwell on it, but in Burgenland, the rate is as low as 1.7.

Furthermore, the percentage of children born to foreign citizens rose from 11.9% in 2006 to 20% in 2015.

Paul Sanders5 said:http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/05/s...lts-in-austria

Check this out... 🤷

There was some news about this, too, but I think someone's just bored and looking to stir the pot.☕

Walter Long7 said:Alongside Italy, Germany, and Japan, Austria stands as one of the nations with the oldest populations in the world.

Well, look—in Austria, much like everywhere else across the developed West, the demographic landscape is shifting quite rapidly... For instance, according to data from early 2016, Austria had over half a million people belonging to the first or second generation from former states, plus roughly 330,000 Turkish individuals (again, first and second generations).

However, since birth rates aren't high enough anywhere to actually replenish these Western European nations, they have to increasingly lean on non-European countries—with the exception of Turkey, which is a legacy player when it comes to migration patterns.

Just looking at the numbers: between 2014 and 2015, Austria saw 214,410 immigrants enter while 101,343 emigrated, leaving a net migration of 113,067... I mention all immigrants specifically because the number of actual "Austrians" is quite small; regardless of where they come from, they are expected to adapt. The year prior, net migration was +72,324. These are massive shifts that are only going to accelerate.

In 2015 alone, there were 100,000 newcomers with foreign roots. To maintain current living standards, these numbers will likely continue to climb, which inevitably brings certain consequences along with it...

For context, the percentage of people without Austrian citizenship was 8.9% back in 2001, whereas by 2011, it had hit 10.9%... A 2% increase, which isn't particularly huge.

But then, by the start of 2016, that figure jumped to 14.6%... That’s a significantly steeper increase over a five-year span—and that doesn't even account for those who have been naturalized.

Vienna, for one, has seen a total demographic slump; I know there are a vast number of foreigners there, including people from our neck of the woods who also suffer from low fertility rates. That said, the Turkish population has dropped below the level of native Austrians, as have many other foreign groups. Not to dwell on it, but in Burgenland, the rate is as low as 1.7.

Furthermore, the percentage of children born to foreign citizens rose from 11.9% in 2006 to 20% in 2015.

The population in Japan is aging, yet they remain steadfast in their refusal to import foreign labor, which allows them to maintain their status as one of the most advanced nations on the planet. We see a similar pattern playing out in South Korea. One has to wonder what becomes of all these outsiders—including our own countrymen—when we inevitably pivot toward total robotization. We are racing toward an era where machines are simply more cost-effective than humans, period. Not everyone possesses the technical expertise required to oversee an automated workforce; if a massive segment of the population ends up relying solely on government assistance, the social safety net will buckle under the weight, eventually driving the entire nation toward bankruptcy.

If there is a genuine need for labor, they should follow the historical precedent set by Germany when they utilized guest workers from Turkey. I have my doubts about the utility of those who have migrated into the country since 2015, as many seem to lack the necessary education to be of much practical use.

Foreigners and work? Please. They didn't migrate here to build careers when the government is practically handing out social safety nets and welfare checks. Why on earth would anyone bother with grueling, low-wage labor just to earn an extra $300 a month? The real question isn't about their motivation; it's about how much longer the American middle class can be expected to foot the bill for these handouts through their own hard-earned paychecks.

rapidhawk2 said:Foreigners and work? Please. They didn't migrate here to build careers when the government is practically handing out social safety nets and welfare checks. Why on earth would anyone bother with grueling, low-wage labor just to earn an extra $300 a month? The real question isn't about their motivation; it's about how much longer the American middle class can be expected to foot the bill for these handouts through their own hard-earned paychecks.

So, you call them freeloaders? Have you ever watched a lion in a zoo when it doesn't have to hunt for its next meal? It just sleeps all day long—yet it still carries itself like the king of the jungle.

Honestly, I’m wasting my breath trying to convince people of a simple truth: if you leave your apartment door wide open and get robbed, the thief isn't the one at fault—you are, for failing to do the one thing you were supposed to do, which was locking the door.

Susan Green2 said:The population in Japan is aging, yet they remain steadfast in their refusal to import foreign labor, which allows them to maintain their status as one of the most advanced nations on the planet. We see a similar pattern playing out in South Korea. One has to wonder what becomes of all these outsiders—including our own countrymen—when we inevitably pivot toward total robotization. We are racing toward an era where machines are simply more cost-effective than humans, period. Not everyone possesses the technical expertise required to oversee an automated workforce; if a massive segment of the population ends up relying solely on government assistance, the social safety net will buckle under the weight, eventually driving the entire nation toward bankruptcy.

If there is a genuine need for labor, they should follow the historical precedent set by Germany when they utilized guest workers from Turkey. I have my doubts about the utility of those who have migrated into the country since 2015, as many seem to lack the necessary education to be of much practical use.

That is the million-dollar question... Why would a single country like Japan receive 40 asylum requests from Syria during 2015 and just smoothly reject every single one? Why don't they want migrants, much like the Koreans and other Eastern nations?
Why would they dump millions upon millions into pro-natalist schemes and dating camps to boost birth rates, rather than spending that money on educating, feeding, and housing foreign migrants?
It’s almost like they’d rather face collective extinction than accept other nations and fundamentally alter a culture that took centuries to build—much like the mindset seen during World War II.
Time will provide the ultimate answer as these two divergent policies play out in the near future..