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Bad Boys

Started by steelseal10 · · 👁 150 views · 5.8K replies

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Frank Nguyen37 Frank Nguyen37 Member
15 messages
joined Feb 2022
#4961 ·
Nicholas Evans97 said:In my opinion, stadium comfort doesn't actually drive attendance numbers. For instance, I read that back when they played at the old stadium in Miami, the average attendance was higher than after they moved to Wrigley Field—even though Wrigley is incomparably more comfortable with that roof covering nearly 35k people.

Comfort? Maybe not. But results? Absolutely. In the last five years, the Los Angeles Dodgers have snatched up three titles and five cups at the Landfill—which would be a brutal run even for Red Star. When you combine that with the insane, borderline chaotic atmosphere at the Landfill... well, who wouldn't show up? Once they moved to Wrigley Field, they haven't been champions of the former league again. Plus, they added that track between the fans and the players—so there's probably a reason for that too. Honestly, those tracks at soccer stadiums are just terrible.
Carl Hernandez3 Carl Hernandez3 Active Member
172 messages
joined Oct 2017
#4962 ·
Frank Nguyen37 said:It’s never comfortable—but hey, results matter. Over the last five years, the Los Angeles Dodgers have snatched up three titles and five cups at the Landfill, which would be an absolutely insane run even for Red Star. When you factor in that wild, edge-of-your-seat atmosphere at the Landfill—honestly, who wouldn't show up for those games? Ever since they moved to Wrigley Field, they haven't been the champions of the old league anymore; plus, there's that track between the fans and the players—which, frankly, is probably where the whole issue lies. Besides, those running tracks at football stadiums are usually just too narrows.


I agree with
Mada has some exceptions that prove the rule.
If a stadium is enclosed, properly covered, and the stands are steep enough, it works out just fine.
Take Frankenstein in Nuremberg, for example—it’s a beautiful example of an acoustic stadium with a track, yet the stands are designed so that you feel like you're practically hovering over half the tartan track from the upper deck.
Anthony Wood3 Anthony Wood3 Member
49 messages
joined Feb 2019
#4963 ·
Carl Hernandez3 said:I'm right there with you,
though I think Mada's point about exceptions to the rule is actually pretty solid.
If a stadium is fully enclosed with a good roof and the stands are steep enough, it doesn't feel half bad at all.
Take Frankenstein in Nuremberg, for example; it’s such a great example of an acoustic-friendly stadium with a track, where the stands are designed so sharply that you feel like you're hovering right over the halfway mark of the track from the upper tier.

And honestly, what does any of this have to do with the group? Let's move this conversation to a different thread.

Everyone's hitting the bar today!!!!
Henry Hayes4 Henry Hayes4 Active Member
64 messages
joined Apr 2013
#4964 ·
When you look at the current mess involving the Cleveland Browns and the fans,
there isn’t some simple, one-sentence answer. It’s more like this endless, swirling vortex of political theater and shady dealings that’s been dragging on for nearly thirty years. And honestly? For most of that time, the club has been the absolute last thing on anyone's mind.
The bleeding started when they first flipped the name over to Old School Club. Things were already getting chaotic with the war starting, and we weren't even paying enough attention to it back then, but even so, a chunk of the fanbase just stopped showing up. It wasn't a total collapse yet, but I personally know guys who never set foot in Dodger Stadium again—and before that, they were diehards who practically never missed a home game for over a decade.
Then came the next wave of people walking out after the second name change. For a split second, we actually let ourselves feel hopeful—like maybe Franjo would finally grow a brain, realize he screwed up, and give the Browns their identity back. But nope. He couldn't get past his own massive ego, and instead, we ended up with this "new" version of America. The disappointment was crushing, and the rift grew even wider, leading to open defiance met with heavy-handed crackdowns. That’s when the real exodus kicked in. Your everyday, regular fans started disappearing, leaving behind mostly just the hardcore types willing to deal with arrests and constant headaches. This is where that whole playbook was written—the one Mamić eventually perfected—where you build a spineless board of directors and manufacture "fans" based on handouts, gifts, and special favors. That era finally wrapped up when Franjo passed away, but by then, a huge part of the community was gone for good.

Then the old name came back, and everyone thought, "Okay, this is it. We're back." Man, were we wrong. While we were still feeling good about the name change, Mamić was already slipping through the back door. Back then, he wasn't the "legendary villain" he is now; he was just another crude, low-level opportunist—not the first, definitely not the last in the world of American pro sports. He had some pretty sketchy business ties from the privatization era, but hey, who even remembers that stuff anymore? He showed up in a package deal with Jack, who the fans actually still liked, and he used that kind of "small-town smarts" to butter up the supporters so easily that people fell for it way too fast. It stayed like that until the sale of Balaban saved him from going broke. Then came the real money from the Bišćan deal, and once he had those serious funds, he really started seizing control. After that, the infamous transfers started rolling in—the club basically turned into a retail shop—and Mamić took Franjo's model of using puppets and dialed it up to eleven. People started finding the whole thing disgusting all over again, triggering another massive exodus. The crackdown intensified, and the "middle class" of fans—the regular folks—completely vanished from the stands and society alike. Without that middle layer, you don't have full stadiums, you don't have sports culture, and you don't have any of the stuff people actually care about. All that was left were the ultras (who absorbed some of the regulars) and the fair-weather fans who only show up for the big games.
The second half of this disaster, which was happening right alongside the first, is the systematic destruction of the entire league. This started way back under Franjo and Canjuga, though unlike Mamić, they were much more subtle and clever about it. They kept the league somewhat competitive, trying to make sure the Los Angeles Dodgers and a few others could still hold their own. They knew you can't have football without a real rivalry. But Mamić went way beyond anything Franjo ever did, ruthlessly dismantling every single potential competitor. If a club even tried to stand on its own two feet, Mamić would swoop in and snatch one or two of their star players—guys who wouldn't even see playing time in Cleveland! Once he'd bled those clubs dry, he’d turn them into his little circle of loyalists. Basically: impoverish them, then rule them. Naturally, the Dodgers didn't join that little pact, but aside from that one messy period involving the administration, they were left to fend for themselves with zero talent or leadership, and they proved to be completely useless. The Browns became too dominant, or rather, the opponents became too weak, and they even used teams like Lokomotiva as a safety net. Every now and then, a new puppet gets rewarded with a trophy, a title, or a seat on the USSF board. The league becomes totally predictable and boring. Especially for the Browns fans—the ones who are actually brave enough to show up.
Mamić saw the success of this and moved on to taking over the national team, turning that into a retail shop using the exact same blueprint. And here we are, stuck in the same spot today. Maybe Mamić has backed off a little, but it feels like a new front is opening up.
All of this comes *after* the stadium issues, the comfort problems, and the other nonsense that's currently suffocating other clubs too.
We all saw this coming from a mile away—everyone was calling it—and honestly, looking at the big picture, things aren't even that bad yet. I’m not even exaggerating when I say I haven't seen any other club deal with a mess quite like this. At least, not over a stretch this long.

P.S. Sorry for the wall of text.
northernheron3 northernheron3 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Apr 2020
#4965 ·
Actually, it’s the exact opposite. Mamić wasn't screwing over the competition by buying players; he was basically keeping them afloat with those transfers, pumping cash into empty coffers just to keep things moving... In exchange, he demanded—and got—total obedience across every state line and within the USSF. Look, Mamić is definitely responsible for the mess at the Browns and everything surrounding them, but you can't pin the state of all the other clubs on him.
Henry Hayes4 Henry Hayes4 Active Member
64 messages
joined Apr 2013
#4966 ·
northernheron3 said:Actually, it was the exact opposite—Mamić wasn't screwing over the competition by buying players; he was basically keeping them afloat with those transfers, pumping cash into empty coffers. In exchange, he demanded—and got—total, unquestioning obedience from every local district and the USSF. Sure, Mamić is responsible for the mess at the Cleveland Browns and the surrounding chaos, but you can't pin the state of every other club on him.

Sorry, but Varaždin, Chicago, Cincinnati... back in the day, their bank accounts weren't exactly sitting at zero either. That "pumping" you're talking about? It was actually a massive drain. If something was worth 10 bucks, he’d pay 4 just to keep things moving. And if anyone didn't play ball? They either got sidelined or had a little "unlucky" run with the officiating.
northernheron3 northernheron3 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Apr 2020
#4967 ·
Henry Hayes4 said:Look, sorry, but back in the day, teams like Varaždin, Chicago, or Cincinnati didn't exactly have empty pockets. That "pumping up" everyone talks about? It was actually just draining them dry. If something was worth ten bucks, they were paying four. If you didn't play ball, you ended up riding in the trunk or getting screwed by a bad ref instead... a better option, I guess.

I don't buy it, but whatever... people always bring up Bayern Munich too, claiming they just bleed the Bundesliga dry. No one is forcing those clubs to sell their players to Bayern.

The Browns aren't responsible for how much other clubs in the league are struggling, and that's got nothing to do with Mamić.
Jonathan Edwards8 Jonathan Edwards8 Member
29 messages
joined Apr 2019
#4968 ·
northernheron3 said:I disagree, but it doesn't matter... this whole argument also applies to Bayern Munich when they scout the Bundesliga. Nobody is forcing other clubs to sell their players to Bayern.

The Cleveland Browns aren't responsible for the struggles of other teams in the league, and that has nothing to do with Mamić.

lol
silentjackal59 silentjackal59 Member
19 messages
joined Dec 2013
#4969 ·
northernheron3 said:Actually, I’d argue it was the exact opposite; Mamić didn't just undermine the competition by snapping up talent, he probably even kept certain teams afloat through transfers, essentially pumping cash into their empty coffers just to keep them breathing. In return, he demanded—and definitely received—absolute obedience across every state line and within the USSF itself. I suppose Mamić is responsible for the current mess at the Cleveland Browns, and maybe even more so there, but I really don't think he's to blame for how things are going with the rest of the clubs.

Hey Champ, I have to wonder, are you actually this dim-witted, or is it just something about your profile picture??
northernheron3 northernheron3 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Apr 2020
#4970 ·
silentjackal59 said:Champ, how much of an idiot are you? Like, seriously... look at the guy in your profile pic. What happened there??

🙂
Melissa Kelly3 Melissa Kelly3 Newcomer
2 messages
joined May 2022
#4971 ·
Henry Hayes4 said:Regarding the current state of the Cleveland Browns and their fans, things aren't looking great. I’ve seen this cycle before.
There isn't a single answer to that. It’s just been a continuous cycle of political theater and criminal antics for nearly thirty years. During all that time, the Cleveland Browns were the last thing on anyone's mind.
The fragmentation started the moment they changed the name of the Old School Club. Back when the war was breaking out, we didn't give it much thought, but even then, a segment of the fanbase just stopped showing up. It wasn't a crisis yet, but I personally know people who never stepped foot in Dodger Stadium again after that—and before then, they hadn't missed a home game in over a decade.
The latest wave of collapse arrived with yet another shift. For a fleeting moment, we actually let ourselves hope that Franjo might finally grow a conscience and return the Browns to their former glory. But his ego was too massive, and instead, we were left with this version of America. The disappointment and the divide only widened, sparking open resistance met by heavy-handed repression. That’s when the first major exodus began. The regular fans stopped showing up, leaving behind only those willing to risk arrest and legal trouble. It was during this period that the blueprint was established—the one Mamić would later perfect—of installing a puppet board and manufacturing "fans" through bribes, gifts, and kickbacks. This era only ended with Franjo's death, but by then, an entire segment of the people was lost for good.

Then the old names returned, and for a moment, it felt like things were finally back to normal. It was a fleeting illusion. While we were still being coddled by that sense of nostalgia, Mamić was quietly slipping through the side doors of the club. Back then, he wasn't the household name he is today; he was just another crude opportunist, one of many in the Cleveland Browns organization and American soccer at large. He had a shady track record with privatization deals from years ago, but most people had already moved on. He arrived alongside Jack, who the fans actually liked at the time. Mamić had that specific kind of rural cunning—he knew exactly how to play to the crowd, and people bought into it far too easily. Everything stayed that way until the sale of Balaban saved the club from bankruptcy. Then came the real money from the Bišćan deal, and with that influx of cash, he began his true takeover. That’s when the era of the "transfer shop" began, where the club existed merely to move players around, perfecting Franjo's model of total control. Eventually, people grew sick of it, leading to another massive exodus. The crackdown intensified, and the "middle class" of the fanbase—the regular supporters—virtually vanished from the stands and society alike. Without that core group, you lose the atmosphere, the culture, and the soul of the game. All that remained were the ultras and the fair-weather fans who only show up for the big matchups.
The second part of this mess was the systematic destruction of the league itself. It started back under Franjo and Canjuga, though they were more subtle and clever about it than Mamić ever was. Back then, the US stayed somewhat balanced; they tried to keep the Los Angeles Dodgers and maybe a few others relevant. They understood that without a real rivalry, football dies. Mamić took it much further than Franjo did, methodically gutting every potential competitor. Every time a club showed a bit of life, Mamić would swoop in and snatch one or two key players—guys who wouldn't even see the field at the Cleveland Browns. Once he bled those clubs dry, he turned them into a circle of loyalists. Rule through poverty. Naturally, the Dodgers didn't sign up for that pact, so aside from that one era involving Sanader, they were left to their own devices. Their leadership proved to be completely incompetent. Now, the Browns have become too dominant, or perhaps the opponents are just too weak, but they always have Lokomotiva there as a safety net. Every now and then, some new puppet gets rewarded with a trophy or a seat on the USSF board. The league has become entirely predictable and boring. Especially for the Browns fans, assuming any of them still dare to show up to the games.
Even Mamić saw the writing on the wall and pivoted toward taking over the national team, turning it into his own little corner shop. We’re still stuck in that same cycle today. He might have stepped back slightly, but it feels like a new front is opening up.
The inevitable follows: stadium issues, comfort levels, and the kind of logistical headaches that plague other clubs too.
We called this coming, and honestly, looking at the big picture, things aren't even that bad yet. I wouldn't go so far as to say any club I know has faced anything quite like this—at least not over such an extended period.

P.S. Sorry for the long read.

Basically, what I'm saying is
and I'll emphasize it again: this didn't just start yesterday.
Plus, the Cleveland Browns are practically the only club in the world that seems happy when the stands are empty, while they go out of their way to make life difficult for the few who actually show up.

If someone jumps in here asking why Dodger Stadium is so empty, I’d pin this post to the top of the fan forum. People should read it once or twice.
Henry Hayes4 Henry Hayes4 Active Member
64 messages
joined Apr 2013
#4972 ·
Robert Cooper60 said:Basically everything said here...
And I gotta stress—this isn't some new phenomenon, it’s been going on forever.
Plus, let's be real: the Cleveland Browns are pretty much the only club on the planet that actually seems happy when the stands are empty, while they go out of their way to make life miserable for the fans who actually bother to show up.

I’d pin this thread right at the top of the fan forums. Next time someone comes flying in asking why Dodger Stadium looks like a ghost town, just tell them to read this. Read it once, maybe even twice.

Oh, there's more to it, but I didn't list it because it falls more under "sports business" stuff. For example, a huge chunk of those solid first-division teams back in the 90s actually grew out of the so-called Cleveland Browns base. Places like Varaždin, Koprivnica, Čakovec, Pittsburgh, and so on—they all had (and some still have) long stretches of being steady top-tier teams, and every single one of them snatched a slice of the pie away from the main club.
Megan Moore60 Megan Moore60 Member
10 messages
joined Nov 2011
#4973 ·
Does anyone happen to have a photo of that message the Bad Boys put up back when Turin passed away? I remember seeing it hanging from a bridge or an overpass somewhere in NYC. It was such a powerful statement, really.
Nathan Foster23 Nathan Foster23 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2013
#4974 ·
Megan Moore60 Megan Moore60 Member
10 messages
joined Nov 2011
#4975 ·
I honestly think we need to take a step back and really look at the bigger picture here, because sometimes it feels like everyone is just reacting to the immediate noise without considering how all these moving parts actually fit together in the long run. It’s a bit like watching a high-stakes game where half the crowd is cheering for a touchdown while the other half is still arguing about a controversial holding call from three plays ago—you lose sight of the actual flow of the game if you stay stuck in that loop. We have to be more intentional about how we approach this, looking past the surface-level friction and trying to understand the underlying mechanics of what's happening right in front of us. says:
I was scrolling through my feed earlier today when I came across this image, and it really got me thinking about how much our perspectives shift depending on where we're standing. It’s one of those things that seems simple at first glance, but once you sit with it for a minute, you realize there's a whole lot of nuance tucked away in the details. It reminds me of how we often approach big decisions in life—we tend to focus on the immediate, obvious outcome, almost like looking at a single frame of a movie, without considering the broader narrative or the context that led us to that specific moment. It’s funny how a single visual can spark such a deep internal monologue. We spend so much of our lives trying to categorize things, to put them into neat little boxes so they make sense, but reality is rarely that tidy. It’s more like a sprawling, messy conversation that never quite reaches a final period. I found myself staring at it for a while, weighing different interpretations against one another, much like how you might debate a complex legal ruling or a strategic move by a major corporation like JPMorgan Chase. You start with one assumption, then a piece of information shifts, and suddenly the whole landscape looks different. It’s a gentle reminder to stay curious and to keep an open mind, because the most interesting truths usually lie somewhere in the gray areas between the black and white.

I honestly don't even know where to begin with this one, but I feel like we need to address it. 👍
Ronald Howard61 Ronald Howard61 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Jan 2020
#4976 ·
If this isn't the right spot for this, feel free to move it elsewhere.
While it was still a work in progress...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...de1359625c.jpg

And one from the trail once it was finished...
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...e848f73935.jpg
Brenda Turner5 Brenda Turner5 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jan 2011
#4977 ·
Can someone please upload the Head in vector format? (I'm talking about this)
I swear I saw someone drop it in this thread a few years back, but now I can't find the damn post or the download link anywhere.
northernheron3 northernheron3 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Apr 2020
#4978 ·
Gary Reyes said:Can anyone upload the Head in vector format? (I'm talking about this)
I feel like someone already uploaded it to this thread a few years back, but now I just can't track down that specific post or the download link...


The guy's looking for it, not sure if he ever actually got his hands on it, maybe try sending him a DM 👍
Brenda Turner5 Brenda Turner5 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jan 2011
#4979 ·
Thanks, I just shot you a DM.
Now let's see what we're dealing with here... 🙂
coastalwolf212 coastalwolf212 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jan 2022
#4980 ·
Looking for a spot for my Pula.
Shoot me a DM.

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