Martial Arts and the Bazooka

Think it's better to start a new thread since this doesn't really fit in the Barca discussion

Bazooka said:Who's looking for a fight? I'm just asking a question nobody seems to have an answer to... though maybe we'll finally figure out what internal martial arts actually are by the end of this...

Bottom line—nobody on the planet is going to give you one single answer that satisfies everyone😬

Here are some possible answers I stumbled upon:

Sun Lu Tang wrote that the core of internal arts lies in naturally applying the principles of heaven and earth while developing pure, correct chi.

The BKF crowd claims internal arts are those that base strength on cultivating chi, the mind, achieving total relaxation, longevity, and meditation.

Jan Diepersloot argues that the defining feature of internal arts versus external methods is having little to no body movement.

Then there are those who say the main difference is using "soft" qigong.

Some people claim it’s all about using methods from Xi Sui Jing and Yi Jin Jing.

The term "internal martial arts" (Neijia) didn't even get popular until the 20th century anyway. If you'd asked an old-school master before then about internal vs. external styles, he probably would've thought you were talking about Chinese vs. non-Chinese techniques. The earliest verifiable mention of Neijia and Waijia in a martial arts context seems to date back to the 17th century.

Some argue that splitting internal and external styles is a mistake. I mean, every style has a "hard" and a "soft" side, right? You can't fight with nothing but softness—you won't be able to hurt anyone. And you can't fight with pure hardness—you wouldn't be able to move. Plus, every "external" style has an internal component (even something like Karate 😬). Concepts like power (li), intention/heart (yi), energy/breath (chi), and spirit (shen) aren't exclusive to the internal stuff.

If you're talking about nei jin ("internal" or "trained strength"), that's a different story... but external styles train nei jin too (like ting jin, which is arguably the most important part). And internal styles have wai jin because it'd be pretty useless not to have it.

Others say the difference is the fighting method. External styles control the opponent's movement; internal styles control (sense) their intention. That's a shaky argument though, because any halfway decent fighter can see or feel an opponent's intent. (Boxers, wrestlers...)

Got a specific answer in mind? Something more detailed? Meridian theory? The Five Elements? The Yellow River Map? I'm not touching the I Ching. 😬

Jamie Fowler2 said:It’s impossible to fight against total softness—you can't actually injure an opponent that way.

Unless you actually *want* to hurt them. In which case, it works perfectly fine. 😁 That's the whole point, isn't it?

P.S. Is this thread just a private conversation between you two? If it is, maybe a moderator should just delete this post. Thanks! 😎

Jerry Thompson said:Unless you're actually trying to hurt the other guy. 😁 In which case, go for it.

P.S. Is this thread just for you two or what? If it's a private convo, a mod can just nuked this post. Thx! 😎

Nah, man... anyone's welcome to chime in and say what they think about all this.

(but you won't be able to stop them from landing a hit on you either... not ideal 😬 )

One can simply allow an opponent to injure themselves. It is often most effective to strike them against the ground. 🙂

jademarlin26 said:You can just let your opponent beat themselves up. It’s best to hit them with the weight of the whole Country. 🙂

...hehehe...

...pure flavor, pure satisfaction...

And what about that version where you’re just using it to beat the ground? 😂

jademarlin26 Jamie Fowler2 said:You can just let your opponent beat themselves up. Honestly, the best way to handle it is to slam them against the ground... 🙂

Aikido forums, huh?...

Try and take me down without using any force. (Without being at least a little aggressive or forcing your will... it’s impossible...)

Besides that—they really ought to show Mother Earth some love instead of trying to wreck her with all that brutal behavior... 😬

Time to get serious for a second...

I think Viper might be aiming for chi. You gotta say...

Having chi isn't some big deal. Everyone’s got it...
Feeling chi isn't some big deal. Everyone feels it...
Moving chi isn't some big deal. Everyone moves chi...
Being a decent human being... that's something else. Not everyone actually has the guts to pull it off.

Nah, I didn't make that up... 😬 I don't even know what chi is...

Jamie Fowler2 said:Go ahead then, try to take me down without using any hardness. (Without imposing your will just a little bit? It's impossible...)

You basically just described Morihei Ueshiba. Congratulations 👍 🙂

Jerry Thompson said:you basically just described Morihei Ueshiba. Congrats 👍 🙂

you talking about the old man who’d snap a student's fingers if they didn't follow orders? The guy whose kiai could be heard from miles away? 😬 maybe exceptions prove the rule—just because he pulled it off doesn't mean anyone else can, right? Or am I tripping? Plus, look at the photos of him throwing atemi strikes and try telling me his aikido was "soft." Since we're getting all philosophical—the hardness I'm talking about isn't just tensing up muscles. Aikido doesn't really fit into those Chinese internal vs. external categories—maybe just because it isn't a Chinese art? Though some people claim it's linked to ba gua and yi quan...

It's an interesting question though, whether aikido counts as an internal art today in terms of developing ki... Toco? Hey, weigh in here 😬

Go ahead and try to target Judas or some other traitorous type. LOL

Gerald Smith76 said:Try pulling a Judo throw or a wrestling takedown—LOL

Look—if someone already knows you're going to throw them, it doesn't matter if you're using a pro wrestling move or just standard grappling; it won't work.
The real point here is about defending yourself against an attacker who—the second they get physical—has clearly lost their cool and their focus... and honestly? That makes them easy to take down, regardless of what specific move you use.

...look, wrestlers are tough. Their training is brutal, and honestly, it’s a nightmare trying to throw a wrestler when they're on you... judokas are solid too, really hard to take down if you aren't careful...
...and don't go thinking raw strength fixes everything. If there's a massive weight gap, a wrestler's grappling or a judoka's throws won't mean a damn thing if they don't know how to use technique to offset that pure power...
...plus, the law of leverage—and I'm not talking about limb locks here—is a nasty piece of work...

Justin Watson58 said:...well, wrestlers are tough—their training is brutal—and it's hard for anyone else to stop a wrestler from taking them down... judokas are solid, too, and they're a nightmare to topple...
...it’s like they say, brute force isn't everything—if there's a massive weight gap, all the wrestling or judo in the world won't matter if you don't know how to balance technique against pure strength...
...and the law of leverage—not just limb leverage, mind you—is a nasty little thing...

Look, both Judo and wrestling are incredibly deep disciplines... almost every single move relies on leverage principles, so weight doesn't mean much when a practitioner applies their technique properly—especially against someone who has no clue how either style works.
Technique and raw strength—along with everything else physical—are what actually make a top-tier fighter or master... the second you strip away one of those components, you aren't a master anymore.

Robin Palmer3 said:Judo and wrestling are just overflowing with techniques... basically every move relies on leverage. It doesn't matter how much a judoka or wrestler weighs when they nail a technique, especially against someone who has zero clue what they're doing.
Technique combined with strength—plus everything else physical—is what builds an elite fighter and a true master. If you drop even one of those pieces, you aren't a master anymore.

...well, if we're still talking about these two disciplines...
...what Robin Palmer3 wrote was just a straightforward response to Mark Wilson39's post...
...but I was actually talking about the balance between technique and power—specifically, the difference between how judo guys and wrestlers operate...
...it’s impossible to cover every single angle of a topic in one go.

Mark Wilson39 said:if you already know someone is going to throw you, you don't need to be some elite Olympic wrestler or an MMA pro to prevent it from happening.
The real point here is about defending yourself against an attacker who, the moment they resort to physical aggression, has essentially forfeited their composure and focus... such a person becomes quite easy to throw, regardless of whether they have professional training or not.

???????????
Successfully throwing someone depends entirely on how much training you have under your belt.
There is simply no way for an untrained person to defend themselves against a takedown from an Olympic wrestler or a high-level judoka unless they possess that same level of specialized training themselves, no matter what kind of attack is being thrown! Even if the attacker loses their cool and concentration, those trained athletes are specifically conditioned to execute attacks and throws without letting it break their focus. There is maybe a 0.01% chance that a complete novice could successfully throw a professional wrestler or a judo expert just because the athlete lost their grip on the situation.

Mark Wilson39 Jamie Fowler2 said:When you already know someone is going to stab you in the back, you don't need a traitor or an enemy to make it happen.

The goal is simple: defend yourself against an attacker who has already lost their composure. The moment someone resorts to physical aggression, they’ve surrendered their focus and their calm. That makes them easy to throw, regardless of who they are.

You’ve got it completely wrong. You just managed to miss every single mark when it comes to actual grappling skills.

What exactly do you mean by "physical assault"? 😕 😕

P.S. Just a quick note—no offense intended—but the correct term is "to defend." Using "defense" sounds a bit like something you'd hear from the neighbors. ;)

Justin Watson58 said:...the principle of leverage (not the limb-based kind) is a nasty thing...

The concept of leverage—specifically disrupting someone's balance—is the bedrock of Judo and wrestling. Without it, people wouldn't bother learning actual technique; they’d just charge in and toss their opponent around like a sack of potatoes. Raw strength and explosiveness really only become the deciding factors when you're facing someone of a similar caliber. In those matchups, the smallest technical detail matters most, though true power and speed remain essential traits for any high-level fighter alongside flawless technique and strategy.

Jujigatame said:Try throwing an American football player LOL

Hmm, let me weigh in on this little debate. Judo means "the gentle way." That implies you aren't out there hacking and slashing at your opponent; if you jerk them or pull too hard, you're just begging for a massive counterattack. Any seasoned judoka knows that. You wait for that split second, hit the hip, and then execute a smooth, lightning-fast throw...

Jamie Fowler2 said:(guess it's better to just start a new thread since this doesn't really fit under the Barca discussion)

So, bottom line—nobody in the world is gonna give you one single answer that satisfies everyone. 😬

Just some possible takes I've stumbled upon:

Sun Lu Tang mentioned that internal stuff is all about using natural principles of heaven and earth to develop pure, correct chi.

BKF says internal skills focus on building strength through cultivating chi, the mind, hitting total relaxation, longevity, and meditation.

Jan Diepersloot claims the hallmark of internal arts versus external ones is having little to no body movement.

Then there's a few folks saying the main difference is using "soft" qigong.

Some say it's about applying methods from Xi Sui Jing and Yi Jin Jing.

The whole "internal arts" (Neijia) term didn't even get big until the 20th century. If you'd asked an old-school master before then, he probably would've thought you were talking about Chinese vs. non-Chinese styles. The earliest confirmed use of Neijia and Waijia specifically regarding martial arts seems to go back to the 17th century.

Some people argue splitting them into internal and external is a mistake. I mean, every style has a "hard" and a "soft" side, right? You can't fight with nothing but softness—you won't hurt anyone. And you can't fight with pure hardness either—you wouldn't be able to move. Plus, all "external" styles have an internal component (even something like karate 😬 ). Concepts like power (li), intention (yi), energy (chi), and spirit (shen) aren't just for the internal stuff.

If you're thinking about nei jin ("internal" or "trained strength"), that's a different story... but external styles train nei jin too (like ting jin, which is probably the most important thing). And internal styles have wai jin because, well, it'd be pretty useless not to have it.

Some say the difference is just how you fight. External styles control the opponent's movement; internal ones control (or feel) their intention. But that's tricky, 'cause any decent fighter can sense intention (think boxers or wrestlers...).

You got a specific answer in mind? Maybe something more detailed? Like meridian theory? The five elements? The Yellow River Map? I'm definitely staying out of the I Ching stuff. 😬

What do you think of my avatar?

I don't have an answer for you. Which of those theories does Hao follow? Oh, by the way, are you, Hao, and the rest of Hao's crew heading to the Chen Xiaowang seminar in Washington, D.C.? Or maybe he shouldn't come at all, since Hao might accidentally injure him with all that deep knowledge?

The answer to your question is basically a counter-question: What makes what you're doing "internal," or what makes Hao's way "internal"?
And when it comes to generating power, isn't that where you actually see the gap between internal and external?