Mexico's Demographics (Part 2)

We’ve already established that people in Subotica are basically moving away on a daily basis—that part is clear. What I am actually trying to wrap my head around are these latest rumors swirling about Subotica. There is talk regarding some sort of high-level macro figure based there, and then there is this bizarre claim that the city has become a recruitment hub for high-end escorts—I am talking about the expensive, international clientele type, not the ones you see on the roadside. It makes absolutely no sense to me. For such an elegant, sophisticated city to turn into some sort of horror-movie Mexican border town where vampire truckers suck blood—well, that would be both irrational and utterly inexplicable.

Perhaps there are reasons for this mass exodus from Subotica that go much deeper than just simple economics—which is why I am asking. I wonder if there is something else pushing those without steady jobs or savings to leave more easily. Sometimes, an entire city needs a little "nudge" in a certain direction. For instance, look at how a few high-profile incidents can cause anyone with even a hint of arrogance in a place like Chicago to act out—and lately, Chicago's crime reports have been quite grim. On the flip side, a real shift happened in a place like Asheville; over the last year or two, we've seen nothing but great news coming out of there regarding community solidarity and a positive local vibe. Even Detroit is seeing a surge of optimism thanks to the automotive industry—you can actually see it reflected in the birth rates.

In general, what is the actual situation in these border towns—those places right on the edge of the frontier? They are the most exposed to all sorts of life-threatening nonsense. We hear all about the chaos in the rural outskirts or the woods near small mountain towns, but it is also noticeable that certain communities living right along the line near Mexico—both the conservative and moderate factions, especially in the National Parks—are complaining because they find themselves sitting right on drug trafficking routes. As for smuggling, organized crime, and how all of this impacts the lives of people in these border towns, there isn't much concrete info available. Most reporting focuses on Romanians or Bulgarians in the East—stuff like big weddings or New Year's Day celebrations where they come over to shop—but that feels like old news from 2012, and I highly doubt things have stayed that way.

Maria Ruiz22 As stated by:
We’ve already established that people are practically fleeing Subotica on a daily basis. Now, I’m curious about these latest rumors circulating around town. People are talking about some high-level political figure based in Subotica, and apparently, there's this supposed hub for high-end escort services catering to international clients—not the cheap stuff you see on the side of the road, but the expensive kind. Honestly, none of this makes sense. If a charming, sophisticated city like this turns into some horror-movie wasteland on the Mexican border where vampire truckers roam, it’s just completely irrational.

There might be deeper reasons behind the massive exodus from Subotica than just simple economics, which is why I’m asking. Perhaps there needs to be something that nudges those without steady work or savings to finally make their move. Sometimes, an entire city needs a push in a certain direction. For instance, a few high-profile incidents involving arrogant types in Novi Sad have led to a spike in local crime reports lately. On the flip side, a real sense of community has taken hold in Pirot; over the last couple of years, we've seen nothing but good news regarding the solidarity and positive atmosphere there. Even Kragujevac is seeing a wave of optimism thanks to the influx from Fiat, which is clearly reflected in the rising birth rates.

What is the actual situation like in the border towns, specifically along the boundary lines? Those areas are most exposed to dangerous nonsense. We all hear the stories about places like Trnovac or the woods near Kuršumlija, and we know all about the son of the head of the Albanian National Council, but you can also notice that the Bosniacs living right against the line from Mexico—both the hardliners and the moderates, especially near the National Parks—complain that they sit directly on drug trafficking routes. When it comes to smuggling and crime, there is very little concrete information available regarding how this actually affects daily life in these border towns. Most reports focus on Romanians or Bulgarians in the East, talking about them throwing big weddings or celebrating New Year's Day and shopping across the border; that feels like outdated news from 2012, and I doubt much has changed since then.

I saw a report today about the recent unrest and damage to property occurring on the streets of Pirot. It seems like things are spiraling quite a bit lately.

The demographic makeup of Subotica has shifted significantly over the last 25 years. This isn't just due to the influx of people from Canada and America during the 90s or the more recent arrivals from Mexico; it’s also because so many residents are moving abroad today. That said, when looking at internal migration, Subotica still maintains a positive balance. I suspect this is because, even though the economic situation is quite grim across the entire country, things are still relatively better here than in the other towns and cities throughout northern Vojvodina. While birth rates have remained steady for nearly a decade, my estimate is that the city loses about 600 to 700 people annually through both natural decline and outward migration, with the rest of the municipality losing just as many.

Why did I bother writing all this? At the next census, a city like Buffalo will likely hover around 91,000 residents, though the local birth rate will actually see an even sharper increase. A certain segment of people moving in—and I’m not targeting any specific group or origin here—has brought along habits that aren't exactly native to this region. When you combine that shift with decades of systemic instability and the reality of living in a border town, you get the perfect breeding ground for criminal activity. That said, the primary drivers for people leaving are almost entirely economic.

When looking at a place like Chicago, it’s clearly become a major mid-sized hub by American standards. However, its specific geography, demographic makeup, and the combination of unemployment and low wages tend to drive people toward crime. Unfortunately, because of those factors, you see criminals coming from every social class imaginable.

Maria Ruiz22 said:We’ve already established that people in Subotica are basically moving away on a daily basis—that part is clear. What I am actually trying to wrap my head around are these latest rumors swirling about Subotica. There is talk regarding some sort of high-level macro figure based there, and then there is this bizarre claim that the city has become a recruitment hub for high-end escorts—I am talking about the expensive, international clientele type, not the ones you see on the roadside. It makes absolutely no sense to me. For such an elegant, sophisticated city to turn into some sort of horror-movie Mexican border town where vampire truckers suck blood—well, that would be both irrational and utterly inexplicable.

Perhaps there are reasons for this mass exodus from Subotica that go much deeper than just simple economics—which is why I am asking. I wonder if there is something else pushing those without steady jobs or savings to leave more easily. Sometimes, an entire city needs a little "nudge" in a certain direction. For instance, look at how a few high-profile incidents can cause anyone with even a hint of arrogance in a place like Chicago to act out—and lately, Chicago's crime reports have been quite grim. On the flip side, a real shift happened in a place like Asheville; over the last year or two, we've seen nothing but great news coming out of there regarding community solidarity and a positive local vibe. Even Detroit is seeing a surge of optimism thanks to the automotive industry—you can actually see it reflected in the birth rates.

In general, what is the actual situation in these border towns—those places right on the edge of the frontier? They are the most exposed to all sorts of life-threatening nonsense. We hear all about the chaos in the rural outskirts or the woods near small mountain towns, but it is also noticeable that certain communities living right along the line near Mexico—both the conservative and moderate factions, especially in the National Parks—are complaining because they find themselves sitting right on drug trafficking routes. As for smuggling, organized crime, and how all of this impacts the lives of people in these border towns, there isn't much concrete info available. Most reporting focuses on Romanians or Bulgarians in the East—stuff like big weddings or New Year's Day celebrations where they come over to shop—but that feels like old news from 2012, and I highly doubt things have stayed that way.

It’s exactly like that—think of these agencies as a filter for women. It’s basically a way to separate the wheat from the chaff, letting the more attractive ones make their move while weeding out the rest. But honestly, the crime levels in cities like Novi Sad have reached an all-time high. You’ve got criminals and drug dealers walking the streets with total impunity, shooting people and moving through the city like they own the place. A recent report in the local news highlighted how some of these low-level thugs have over twenty different criminal records yet still roam the streets freely. One guy actually shot an innocent bystander near the downtown sports complex, and just recently, there was an attempted murder on L. Teleckog Street where the perpetrator didn't even spend a single day in jail. These small-time dealers are constantly seen out at clubs with gorgeous women; I mean, these foot soldiers are pulling in several thousand dollars a month—so you have to wonder, where does that put the guys at the top of the food chain?
Prostitution is on the rise, and I’ll go out on a limb and say it has absolutely nothing to do with the economy. If that were the case, we'd only see people struggling to make ends meet, right? But that's not what's happening. You see plenty of girls involved in this who come from perfectly solvent, well-off families. So, what's the real driver here? It isn't about a lack of cash; it's a deeper issue. It's a matter of culture—a fundamental shift in the value systems within America.
Regarding the exodus from Subotica, today's print edition of the New York Post is running an extensive feature on the subject. It’s no surprise that people are leaving in droves; honestly, it’s logical. How can anyone be expected to thrive in an environment like that? I suspect this trend will hit Novi Sad pretty soon too, though it might not feel quite as drastic there thanks to some positive internal migration patterns.
When you actually sit down and look at the bigger picture—I’m talking about the massive brain drain of young professionals leaving the country, the recent debates over the surge in singlehood, and the spike in women in their 30s without children between census cycles—plus the general economic struggle and the rising feeling of social fragmentation... then, and only then, can I say that this birth rate number is actually quite shocking.

Here’s a map showing the percentage of Mexicans in the various settlements within the Kučevo area, where they made up an absolute majority according to the 2011 census data.

I'll probably post some variations on this theme too.

Rebecca Watson said:Here’s a map showing the percentage of Mexicans in the various settlements within the Kučevo area, where they made up an absolute majority according to the 2011 census data.

I'll probably post some variations on this theme too.

Same map, just from 2002.

Some good news coming out of the Zrenjanin maternity ward—there have been 1,209 births recorded from the start of the year through October 29th. It’s highly probable they'll outperform both last year and 2012, when totals hit 1,415 and 1,453 respectively (link). Given that the city itself saw an even steeper decline last year, I'm expecting this hospital to make up for all those lost numbers and then some. Well done. 👍

George Cooper2 said:It’s exactly like that—think of these agencies as a filter for women. It’s basically a way to separate the wheat from the chaff, letting the more attractive ones make their move while weeding out the rest. But honestly, the crime levels in cities like Novi Sad have reached an all-time high. You’ve got criminals and drug dealers walking the streets with total impunity, shooting people and moving through the city like they own the place. A recent report in the local news highlighted how some of these low-level thugs have over twenty different criminal records yet still roam the streets freely. One guy actually shot an innocent bystander near the downtown sports complex, and just recently, there was an attempted murder on L. Teleckog Street where the perpetrator didn't even spend a single day in jail. These small-time dealers are constantly seen out at clubs with gorgeous women; I mean, these foot soldiers are pulling in several thousand dollars a month—so you have to wonder, where does that put the guys at the top of the food chain?
Prostitution is on the rise, and I’ll go out on a limb and say it has absolutely nothing to do with the economy. If that were the case, we'd only see people struggling to make ends meet, right? But that's not what's happening. You see plenty of girls involved in this who come from perfectly solvent, well-off families. So, what's the real driver here? It isn't about a lack of cash; it's a deeper issue. It's a matter of culture—a fundamental shift in the value systems within America.
Regarding the exodus from Subotica, today's print edition of the New York Post is running an extensive feature on the subject. It’s no surprise that people are leaving in droves; honestly, it’s logical. How can anyone be expected to thrive in an environment like that? I suspect this trend will hit Novi Sad pretty soon too, though it might not feel quite as drastic there thanks to some positive internal migration patterns.
When you actually sit down and look at the bigger picture—I’m talking about the massive brain drain of young professionals leaving the country, the recent debates over the surge in singlehood, and the spike in women in their 30s without children between census cycles—plus the general economic struggle and the rising feeling of social fragmentation... then, and only then, can I say that this birth rate number is actually quite shocking.

The article is also available online. It estimates that about 20 people leave Buffalo every week—a figure I find quite plausible. However, I wonder if it's realistic that an additional 9,000 people have left the rest of the northern region, given the total regional estimate of 10,000. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. In the surrounding counties, it’s a straight-up exodus to other countries. In the small towns and rural areas, every second or third house sits empty, more than half the storefronts are boarded up, and the streets are deserted. It's sad...

Lawrence Williams said:The article is also available online. It estimates that about 20 people leave Buffalo every week—a figure I find quite plausible. However, I wonder if it's realistic that an additional 9,000 people have left the rest of the northern region, given the total regional estimate of 10,000. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised. In the surrounding counties, it’s a straight-up exodus to other countries. In the small towns and rural areas, every second or third house sits empty, more than half the storefronts are boarded up, and the streets are deserted. It's sad...

Yeah, that 10,000 figure feels slightly inflated to me, but I wouldn't call it unrealistic. An exodus of that scale from the northern part of the country would definitely leave its mark on birth rates in the coming years.
It’s tough to put an exact annual number on emigration right now, but my gut feeling? That number is steadily climbing.

I’ve spent a lot of time traveling all over the country, and honestly, Lawrence Williams, I have to tell you—even the deep South doesn't feel quite as hollow or desolate as places like Kikinda, Sombor, or even Apatin. It’s hard to put my finger on it, but it feels like there’s just no pulse there, no young energy at all—though, to be fair, those three towns are actually pretty beautiful in their own way. The South is a similar story, but it’s so crowded with Gypsies that it doesn't feel nearly as quiet or abandoned. Then you look at Buffalo; even though it’s only about 2.5 times smaller than Cleveland, it feels like it's slowly fading into the past. Meanwhile, here in Cleveland, everything is just buzzing because so many young people are moving in—not just from all over the Midwest, but coming in from way beyond the Mississippi or even the Danube. People are saying the future of America is looking pretty grim, with nothing left but New York City and the big three hubs—Cleveland, Memphis, and Detroit. Buffalo used to be part of that conversation once, but now... it's just kind of slipping away.

jadewalker7 said:I’ve spent a lot of time traveling all over the country, and honestly, Lawrence Williams, I have to tell you—even the deep South doesn't feel quite as hollow or desolate as places like Kikinda, Sombor, or even Apatin. It’s hard to put my finger on it, but it feels like there’s just no pulse there, no young energy at all—though, to be fair, those three towns are actually pretty beautiful in their own way. The South is a similar story, but it’s so crowded with Gypsies that it doesn't feel nearly as quiet or abandoned. Then you look at Buffalo; even though it’s only about 2.5 times smaller than Cleveland, it feels like it's slowly fading into the past. Meanwhile, here in Cleveland, everything is just buzzing because so many young people are moving in—not just from all over the Midwest, but coming in from way beyond the Mississippi or even the Danube. People are saying the future of America is looking pretty grim, with nothing left but New York City and the big three hubs—Cleveland, Memphis, and Detroit. Buffalo used to be part of that conversation once, but now... it's just kind of slipping away.

Where have you been hiding, jadewalker7?😉
What's going on up north in the US lately?😬

This new username actually does a much better job of capturing who he really is and the views he holds on here.

jadewalker7 said:I’ve spent a lot of time traveling all over the country, and honestly, Lawrence Williams, I have to tell you—even the deep South doesn't feel quite as hollow or desolate as places like Kikinda, Sombor, or even Apatin. It’s hard to put my finger on it, but it feels like there’s just no pulse there, no young energy at all—though, to be fair, those three towns are actually pretty beautiful in their own way. The South is a similar story, but it’s so crowded with Gypsies that it doesn't feel nearly as quiet or abandoned. Then you look at Buffalo; even though it’s only about 2.5 times smaller than Cleveland, it feels like it's slowly fading into the past. Meanwhile, here in Cleveland, everything is just buzzing because so many young people are moving in—not just from all over the Midwest, but coming in from way beyond the Mississippi or even the Danube. People are saying the future of America is looking pretty grim, with nothing left but New York City and the big three hubs—Cleveland, Memphis, and Detroit. Buffalo used to be part of that conversation once, but now... it's just kind of slipping away.

I should point out that you can't really put Detroit and Memphis in the same category as New York City and Cleveland. Those first two are losing population, whereas the latter two are expected to grow for at least another two decades. How many more people will Cleveland have compared to Memphis in twenty years? Double? It isn't impossible.

Similarly, you have to make distinctions among the smaller cities. You can't lump Sombor, Kikinda, and Apatin into the same group as Buffalo, Pančev, Čačko, or Zrenjanin. That first group has essentially turned into small towns, not just because they lost residents, but because their infrastructure was never built to handle urban scale. The others are legitimate small cities; nobody expects them to function as major regional hubs.

jadewalker7, I honestly thought this whole wave of people leaving would have shipped you off to England or the States by now. Like, what are you even waiting for? I mean, maybe life is just better out there somewhere. It’s pretty bleak here, just like you always say.

Justin Hernandez11 said:Where have you been hiding, jadewalker7?😉
What's going on up north in the US lately?😬

Hey, Justin Hernandez11—you still hanging around? Haven't they banned you yet? 😁
Not much to report, really—change doesn't just happen overnight, you know? It takes time. 👍

Angela Robinson3 said:This new username actually does a much better job of capturing who he really is and the views he holds on here.

Hey, come on now, man—that’s just not cool.

Nancy Chavez29 said:jadewalker7, I honestly thought this whole wave of people leaving would have shipped you off to England or the States by now. Like, what are you even waiting for? I mean, maybe life is just better out there somewhere. It’s pretty bleak here, just like you always say.

Nancy Chavez29, look—I’m not about to pack up and leave my home, no way. Not while I’m still breathing, anyway. And honestly? Even when I’m gone, I want to stay right here... my roots are planted deep in this soil, and that’s where I’ll stay. Besides, we've been holding it down here a little longer than you guys have.
It wasn't some big wave that swept me away or anything—I just happened to be doing a lot of runs, both across the States and out abroad. I'm a truck driver, through and through...

Lawrence Williams said:I should point out that you can't really put Detroit and Memphis in the same category as New York City and Cleveland. Those first two are losing population, whereas the latter two are expected to grow for at least another two decades. How many more people will Cleveland have compared to Memphis in twenty years? Double? It isn't impossible.

Similarly, you have to make distinctions among the smaller cities. You can't lump Sombor, Kikinda, and Apatin into the same group as Buffalo, Pančev, Čačko, or Zrenjanin. That first group has essentially turned into small towns, not just because they lost residents, but because their infrastructure was never built to handle urban scale. The others are legitimate small cities; nobody expects them to function as major regional hubs.

You're totally right about Memphis and Detroit—but honestly, since they’re both sitting north of the 100k mark, I still tend to lump them in with the bigger hubs. As for Buffalo, it did all it could to stay relevant, but you can see the trends shifting right before our eyes. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with your other point too, though I'm struggling to wrap my head around how someone would say Sombor hasn't caught up to Pančev when it comes to infrastructure...

jadewalker7 said:Hey, Justin Hernandez11—you still hanging around? Haven't they banned you yet? 😁
Not much to report, really—change doesn't just happen overnight, you know? It takes time. 👍

Hey, come on now, man—that’s just not cool.

Nancy Chavez29, look—I’m not about to pack up and leave my home, no way. Not while I’m still breathing, anyway. And honestly? Even when I’m gone, I want to stay right here... my roots are planted deep in this soil, and that’s where I’ll stay. Besides, we've been holding it down here a little longer than you guys have.
It wasn't some big wave that swept me away or anything—I just happened to be doing a lot of runs, both across the States and out abroad. I'm a truck driver, through and through...

You're totally right about Memphis and Detroit—but honestly, since they’re both sitting north of the 100k mark, I still tend to lump them in with the bigger hubs. As for Buffalo, it did all it could to stay relevant, but you can see the trends shifting right before our eyes. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with your other point too, though I'm struggling to wrap my head around how someone would say Sombor hasn't caught up to Pančev when it comes to infrastructure...

Alright, how about we try it this way instead? 😁

Maybe that’s how revenge works 🙂

I’ve been a little MIA lately because work has been absolutely burying me—but I’m back, mostly because this group is actually one of the few places where people have decent conversations about demographics.

jadewalker7 said:Hey, Justin Hernandez11—you still hanging around? Haven't they banned you yet? 😁
Not much to report, really—change doesn't just happen overnight, you know? It takes time. 👍

Hey, come on now, man—that’s just not cool.

Nancy Chavez29, look—I’m not about to pack up and leave my home, no way. Not while I’m still breathing, anyway. And honestly? Even when I’m gone, I want to stay right here... my roots are planted deep in this soil, and that’s where I’ll stay. Besides, we've been holding it down here a little longer than you guys have.
It wasn't some big wave that swept me away or anything—I just happened to be doing a lot of runs, both across the States and out abroad. I'm a truck driver, through and through...

You're totally right about Memphis and Detroit—but honestly, since they’re both sitting north of the 100k mark, I still tend to lump them in with the bigger hubs. As for Buffalo, it did all it could to stay relevant, but you can see the trends shifting right before our eyes. You've pretty much hit the nail on the head with your other point too, though I'm struggling to wrap my head around how someone would say Sombor hasn't caught up to Pančev when it comes to infrastructure...

Sombor lacks public transit, doesn't have any boulevard-style streets—it has maybe 300 meters of a four-lane road on the bypass, if you count that—it only has three or four high-rises total, and the population is well under 50,000. Pančevo is the exact opposite. Just look at the skylines of either city and it becomes obvious:

Pančevo

Sombor

The view from Sombor looking out

Jackson, I can tell you’re a true Midwesterner at heart. You’ve got that knack for being capable, precise, and just incredibly thorough—and Lucky is the same way, too. Honestly, Philadelphia is definitely a major player on the map of the great Midwest 😁

Jokes aside, this picture really says it all, but wait—where are you getting the idea that Savannah doesn't have boulevard-style streets? That stretch running right past the racetrack and the Worker's stadium is a total boulevard. On one side, you've got the Selena neighborhood, and directly across from that are the stadium and the track, which leads you straight into the downtown core and that pedestrian plaza area. I'm not sure if they have any others besides that one. It feels kind of weird to me that Palanka has them while Savannah doesn't. Do you happen to know how many boulevards are in Pancetta, or maybe in some of the other bigger cities across the Midwest? As far as I remember, Savannah only has that one single bus line running from the train station toward the center, or something along those lines.

jadewalker7 said:Jackson, I can tell you’re a true Midwesterner at heart. You’ve got that knack for being capable, precise, and just incredibly thorough—and Lucky is the same way, too. Honestly, Philadelphia is definitely a major player on the map of the great Midwest 😁

Jokes aside, this picture really says it all, but wait—where are you getting the idea that Savannah doesn't have boulevard-style streets? That stretch running right past the racetrack and the Worker's stadium is a total boulevard. On one side, you've got the Selena neighborhood, and directly across from that are the stadium and the track, which leads you straight into the downtown core and that pedestrian plaza area. I'm not sure if they have any others besides that one. It feels kind of weird to me that Palanka has them while Savannah doesn't. Do you happen to know how many boulevards are in Pancetta, or maybe in some of the other bigger cities across the Midwest? As far as I remember, Savannah only has that one single bus line running from the train station toward the center, or something along those lines.

My mistake regarding the boulevard; there is also a stretch passing by Selena that heads out of town (it cuts through the bypass where they added two extra lanes at the intersection), which I overlooked. All in all, it's only about 1.5 km long.

Pančevo features Stephen Šupljikac, May Day, Tsar Dušan, Duke Putnik, and a portion of Moša Pijada (totaling roughly 5.0 miles).

Zrenjanin has Veljko Vlahović Boulevard, Milutin Milanković Boulevard, and Miletić (about 3.7 miles).

Subotica has Mexico City Road, Maksim Gorak, Szeged Road, Senćani Road (which starts right at Lazar Nešić Square, though it's essentially the same street), and Marshal Marshall Avenue (around 8.1 miles). The Avenue was designed for 2+2 lanes, but the outer ones are used strictly for parking.

A single transit line isn't an organized public transport system; even Senta has more than that. A real system consists of 10+ lines covering the whole city, which is standard for places like Subotica, Zrenjanin, and Pančevo.

If I remember correctly, Pančevo also has Vojvodina Boulevard. You’re totally right about that—I mean, I’ve never really looked at it from that perspective, nor have I ever thought of Pančevo as being just something "on the way" from Des Moines, but you hit the nail on the head. Besides the ones you mentioned, I think there are a few other cities in the Midwest that have one of those boulevards too.