Sanctions on Russia

ruggeddriver70 said:You didn't actually say anything concrete here. Just threw out "it's the West's fault" and a few other empty clichés. Like, how exactly is the West supposed to go around fixing people's domestic affairs in Russia or Ukraine without getting accused of meddling in their sovereign business?

Look, we aren't talking about some unilateral takeover of Ukraine or Russia—we're talking about cooperation, obviously, with partners who actually want to work together.

Back in '91 and '92, Boris Yeltsin and Yegor Gaidar begged Western governments, financial institutions, and their experts to step in and help—properly, of course.

I think I was being plenty specific... the whole thing is massive and extremely well-documented.

Plus, Gaidar actually warned and pleaded with the USA and Europe to look into how the CIA was letting shell companies be used to stash massive amounts of wealth looted from Russia—wealth used to build corrupt networks of high-level politicians and businessmen.

The response he got? Basically, "that's just standard capital flight, it happens, and unfortunately we can't (read: won't) do anything about it." ☕

Putin had great practical training and was practically a darling of the West whenever it suited them.

Ebote, does Putin even realize the sheer amount of damage he’s inflicted on Russia and its entire economy?🤔🤔

I’ve been watching the debates over in the German Parliament, reading through the news... and it's becoming crystal clear that the West is already laying the groundwork for a massive "Marshall Plan" style reconstruction to rebuild Ukraine, our newest ally.
It seems obvious to me: Russia has lost Ukraine for good, and they've effectively handed themselves a death sentence by losing access to those wealthy Western markets... which, if things continue at this rate, are going to completely move away from Russian energy altogether. Russia is looking at a future defined by sanctions and total isolation.

Honestly, if Putin actually sat down and mapped out a "worst-case scenario" before launching this aggression, then why on earth aren't the results anywhere near what we're seeing now? How did he miscalculate this badly?

lp

Bryan Booth82 said:Ebote, does Putin even realize the sheer amount of damage he’s inflicted on Russia and its entire economy?🤔🤔

I’ve been watching the debates over in the German Parliament, reading through the news... and it's becoming crystal clear that the West is already laying the groundwork for a massive "Marshall Plan" style reconstruction to rebuild Ukraine, our newest ally.
It seems obvious to me: Russia has lost Ukraine for good, and they've effectively handed themselves a death sentence by losing access to those wealthy Western markets... which, if things continue at this rate, are going to completely move away from Russian energy altogether. Russia is looking at a future defined by sanctions and total isolation.

Honestly, if Putin actually sat down and mapped out a "worst-case scenario" before launching this aggression, then why on earth aren't the results anywhere near what we're seeing now? How did he miscalculate this badly?

lp

Who knows if he realizes it, but maybe he does. While Ukraine is getting hit with a massive bill, the West is also getting a wake-up call—a chance to realize that the instability in countries bordering the EU, Ukraine, and Russia isn't just "their" problem. It’s not just about whether they're autocracies or democracies, either—it affects everyone.

Hopefully, aid will be sent to Ukraine soon, and eventually—though God knows when—maybe even to Russia.

Michael Ortiz68 said:Why would you want to ban them? Looking at various articles, most of these are educated young people with families who simply don't want to live under these conditions in Russia.

And right now, most of them are targeting countries with significant Russian minorities, like Georgia or Finland.

The West stands to benefit solely from having educated, more liberal Russians around. Someone posted a link earlier noting that after the USSR collapsed, there were about 900,000 scientists in Russia. Today, that number has dropped to roughly 350,000. I highly doubt they all moved to Africa to find work.

Europe and the USA could pick up the scientific elite from Russia and Ukraine, not to mention filling labor shortages in other sectors where the West is currently lacking workers.

Georgia has the most relaxed visa rules.

This YouTuber has been there for a few days now.

Bryan Booth82 said:Ebote, does Putin even realize the sheer amount of damage he’s inflicted on Russia and its entire economy?🤔🤔

I’ve been watching the debates over in the German Parliament, reading through the news... and it's becoming crystal clear that the West is already laying the groundwork for a massive "Marshall Plan" style reconstruction to rebuild Ukraine, our newest ally.
It seems obvious to me: Russia has lost Ukraine for good, and they've effectively handed themselves a death sentence by losing access to those wealthy Western markets... which, if things continue at this rate, are going to completely move away from Russian energy altogether. Russia is looking at a future defined by sanctions and total isolation.

Honestly, if Putin actually sat down and mapped out a "worst-case scenario" before launching this aggression, then why on earth aren't the results anywhere near what we're seeing now? How did he miscalculate this badly?

lp

Putin is actually the West's strongest ally.
In ten years, you'll have wealthy Germans living in Ukraine because they'll retire there—it'll be cheaper, even if it isn't exactly warm...

Lisa Jackson7 said:Who knows if he realizes it, but maybe he does. While Ukraine is getting hit with a massive bill, the West is also getting a wake-up call—a chance to realize that the instability in countries bordering the EU, Ukraine, and Russia isn't just "their" problem. It’s not just about whether they're autocracies or democracies, either—it affects everyone.

Hopefully, aid will be sent to Ukraine soon, and eventually—though God knows when—maybe even to Russia.

We have already seen the consequences of supporting Russia.
Are we really going to pour trillions back into their coffers just so they can rebuild their military and give rise to some Putin 2.0?
It is baffling how some people still miss the point: Putin has openly branded the West as the enemy and Western values as an abomination, labeling anyone who holds those values as national traitors who must be dealt with.
What I find even harder to grasp is how people fail to see that Putin's stance is shared by at least 70-80% of the population there.

George Robinson43 said:We have already seen the consequences of supporting Russia.
Are we really going to pour trillions back into their coffers just so they can rebuild their military and give rise to some Putin 2.0?
It is baffling how some people still miss the point: Putin has openly branded the West as the enemy and Western values as an abomination, labeling anyone who holds those values as national traitors who must be dealt with.
What I find even harder to grasp is how people fail to see that Putin's stance is shared by at least 70-80% of the population there.

Look, when I talk about helping Russia, I'm not talking about helping Putin or anyone like him.
Helping Germany after World War II didn't mean propping up Hitler or the Nazi Party to keep them in power—it involved denazification.

In Russia's case, we either have to wait or find a way to support and facilitate the rise of democratic forces—kind of like how Gorbachev eventually stepped in after Brezhnev, even if things were messy at first. Everyone thought that was the "end of history." It wasn't.

When the chance actually came, the West missed it—they either slept through it, couldn't figure it out, or were too busy trying to profit from the situation in Russia. Whatever.

And please, don't start pulling out polls about support for Putin... what kind of polls would you run about support for Hitler in Germany right after he took power?

George Robinson43 said:We have already seen the consequences of supporting Russia.
Are we really going to pour trillions back into their coffers just so they can rebuild their military and give rise to some Putin 2.0?
It is baffling how some people still miss the point: Putin has openly branded the West as the enemy and Western values as an abomination, labeling anyone who holds those values as national traitors who must be dealt with.
What I find even harder to grasp is how people fail to see that Putin's stance is shared by at least 70-80% of the population there.

Look, we're dealing with a crowd that views the West, the USA, and the EU as the ultimate villains, so they'll always spin whatever narrative fits that mold.

If the West lets Eastern European countries develop on their own, they complain about lack of interest. But if the West sets any conditions at all, then suddenly it's "interference in internal affairs" and so on.

Lisa Jackson7 said:Look, when I talk about helping Russia, I'm not talking about helping Putin or anyone like him.
Helping Germany after World War II didn't mean propping up Hitler or the Nazi Party to keep them in power—it involved denazification.

In Russia's case, we either have to wait or find a way to support and facilitate the rise of democratic forces—kind of like how Gorbachev eventually stepped in after Brezhnev, even if things were messy at first. Everyone thought that was the "end of history." It wasn't.

When the chance actually came, the West missed it—they either slept through it, couldn't figure it out, or were too busy trying to profit from the situation in Russia. Whatever.

And please, don't start pulling out polls about support for Putin... what kind of polls would you run about support for Hitler in Germany right after he took power?

Wait.
Zero interference.

Lisa Jackson7 said:Look, when I talk about helping Russia, I'm not talking about helping Putin or anyone like him.
Helping Germany after World War II didn't mean propping up Hitler or the Nazi Party to keep them in power—it involved denazification.

In Russia's case, we either have to wait or find a way to support and facilitate the rise of democratic forces—kind of like how Gorbachev eventually stepped in after Brezhnev, even if things were messy at first. Everyone thought that was the "end of history." It wasn't.

When the chance actually came, the West missed it—they either slept through it, couldn't figure it out, or were too busy trying to profit from the situation in Russia. Whatever.

And please, don't start pulling out polls about support for Putin... what kind of polls would you run about support for Hitler in Germany right after he took power?

It seems people still haven't grasped the fundamentals, yet they continue to dream of democracy in Russia.

The fact remains: the West did not help Russia. 🙏 🙏

Lisa Jackson7 said:Look, when I talk about helping Russia, I'm not talking about helping Putin or anyone like him.
Helping Germany after World War II didn't mean propping up Hitler or the Nazi Party to keep them in power—it involved denazification.

In Russia's case, we either have to wait or find a way to support and facilitate the rise of democratic forces—kind of like how Gorbachev eventually stepped in after Brezhnev, even if things were messy at first. Everyone thought that was the "end of history." It wasn't.

When the chance actually came, the West missed it—they either slept through it, couldn't figure it out, or were too busy trying to profit from the situation in Russia. Whatever.

And please, don't start pulling out polls about support for Putin... what kind of polls would you run about support for Hitler in Germany right after he took power?

The thing is, what you're saying doesn't even connect logically.

Just because Germans supported Hitler at one specific point in history doesn't mean it's baked into their entire national psyche like you're making it out to be.

Germany didn't essentially "need" a total overhaul in the way you're implying after WWII. They were already one of the most developed nations before all that. Same goes for Japan.

Supporting certain individuals during a specific historical moment is a completely different beast... even if it feels related on the surface.

Nathan Evans78 said:Look, I wasn't even talking about "compatibility." To me, anyone who is willing to roll up their sleeves and get to work is compatible—doesn't matter if they're blonde, brunette, redhead, Hindu, Mormon, or Muslim...

Besides, isn't the reason these topics even come up because white people can't stand each other anymore? THE LABOR SHORTAGE IS A DIRECT RESULT OF DECADENCE.

That sounds nice on paper... but the reality on the ground is a whole different story.
If you've got a specific group of people who won't let their daughters sit in co-ed classes, walk down the street alone, or even shake hands with men—then you’re looking at a massive cultural divide. Just saying someone "wants to work" is only one tiny piece of the puzzle.

And what was mentioned above is just one slice of those problematic differences. This isn't about racism; it's really more about a fundamental clash of values.

Brenda Murphy3 said:The thing is, what you're saying doesn't even connect logically.

Just because Germans supported Hitler at one specific point in history doesn't mean it's baked into their entire national psyche like you're making it out to be.

Germany didn't essentially "need" a total overhaul in the way you're implying after WWII. They were already one of the most developed nations before all that. Same goes for Japan.

Supporting certain individuals during a specific historical moment is a completely different beast... even if it feels related on the surface.

I suspect you're significantly overstating how much these psychological differences impact core issues, which mostly boil down to national myths regarding being the center of the universe, exceptionalism, and a nation's perceived "greatness" compared to the rest of the world.

That mindset had to be thoroughly purged from the German consciousness, and it's something Russia will eventually have to face as well. Until that happens, prosperity is merely a precursor to militarization, and aggressive wars become a matter of capacity rather than desire.

However, given Russia's sheer geographic scale and its nuclear arsenal, no sane actor would attempt to force such things upon them from the outside; any such effort would be doomed to fail. There simply isn't a power capable of it.

Let’s be brutally honest here: now that the West has secured its victory in Ukraine... who on earth gives a damn about Russia? 🤔
Let them squirm in their own little bubble. If they ever actually decide to step out—though I seriously doubt they will—they can just pray for a chance to rejoin civilization (Western civilization)

Best,

If—and that is a massive if—they ever manage to pivot their entire identity from "us versus the world" to "we are just one part of the world," accepting that they aren't inherently special or entitled to unique geopolitical favors, then they won't have to beg for an invitation back to the table.

Back in the '90s, we didn't see that happening. There was a movement, sure, but it was really just a thin veneer wrapped around the same old imperialistic Russia we've always known.

slyfox43 said:I suspect you're significantly overstating how much these psychological differences impact core issues, which mostly boil down to national myths regarding being the center of the universe, exceptionalism, and a nation's perceived "greatness" compared to the rest of the world.

That mindset had to be thoroughly purged from the German consciousness, and it's something Russia will eventually have to face as well. Until that happens, prosperity is merely a precursor to militarization, and aggressive wars become a matter of capacity rather than desire.

However, given Russia's sheer geographic scale and its nuclear arsenal, no sane actor would attempt to force such things upon them from the outside; any such effort would be doomed to fail. There simply isn't a power capable of it.

Look, I’m not overestimating anything here. We are talking about two completely different historical trajectories. It’s not even a fair fight, honestly. I'm not trying to play defense for one side or go on the attack against the other, but you just can't compare them. The historical path that led Russia to where it is today versus the path Germany—or any other Western nation, for that matter—took to get to their current state? They aren't even in the same ballpark.

slyfox43 said:If—and that is a massive if—they ever manage to pivot their entire identity from "us versus the world" to "we are just one part of the world," accepting that they aren't inherently special or entitled to unique geopolitical favors, then they won't have to beg for an invitation back to the table.

Back in the '90s, we didn't see that happening. There was a movement, sure, but it was really just a thin veneer wrapped around the same old imperialistic Russia we've always known.

That’s really tied directly to their core value system... though I honestly think globalization and all that is speeding up the shift. Wherever you find that specific brand of collectivism, you're probably out of luck. Don't get me wrong, the idea of a nation as a community matters—of course it does—but it isn't the absolute end-all, be-all. It's pretty obvious here in the West, whereas a huge chunk of the East is still wrestling with that concept. That doesn't mean an American wouldn't defend their country—hell, they definitely would—it just means they'd be defending the set of values that actually allows them to live a decent life, rather than just defending "the state" for the sake of existing.
It's hard to put into words, but you see plenty of those types in America too, even if there are way fewer of them than you'd find in Mexico or especially Russia..

Melissa Bailey5 said:Russian tank plant reportedly shut down, according to Ukrainian intel

So, apparently Ukrainian military intelligence is saying that this factory out in the Chelyabinsk region—the one responsible for building and fixing up Russian tanks—has basically ground to a halt because they can't get their hands on imported parts anymore.

I guess we'll see who actually has the guts to tell Putin 😁

The Ukrainians are saying this...? It's hard to take their word for it without some independent verification.

Though, I am reading that Kamaz is pivoting back to truck models from the late 70s just because everything else relies on domestic parts now. Modern trucks usually run on Mercedes engines.
How much more does that idiot Putk have to learn before he realizes you actually need your own supply chain.

It isn't just about rolling out old Kamaz trucks based on 1970s designs. The entire industry is essentially regressing back to the seventies.

Bryan Booth82 said:Let’s be brutally honest here: now that the West has secured its victory in Ukraine... who on earth gives a damn about Russia? 🤔
Let them squirm in their own little bubble. If they ever actually decide to step out—though I seriously doubt they will—they can just pray for a chance to rejoin civilization (Western civilization)

Best,

+ 1
Help Ukraine get back on its feet after this devastating war and integrate them into the West.
As for Russia, isolate them and let them do whatever they want.