Scam Alert

"Paul, a young baboon, stepped up to watch Mel, an adult female, as she dug through the hard, dry earth looking for rhizomes to eat. Paul looked around; the rest of the troop was nowhere to be seen in the rolling grasslands, though they couldn't have been far. Then, he let out a loud scream—something baboons usually only do when they're in real trouble. Within seconds, Paul's mother, who's Mel's superior, came charging in, chased her off, and both of them cleared out. Paul just wandered forward and started snacking on the rhizome himself."

Richard Leakey and Roger Laven - Rethinking Origins - Man's Search for Meaning - p. 246 Penguin Random House 2005.

It’s pretty clear that in this case, we're looking at a very "sophisticated" bit of deception, even by a baboon's standards.
So, what defines a "deception" to you? And how much weight do you give its role in the evolution of human consciousness?

Mark Torres14 said:"Paul, a young baboon, stepped up to watch Mel, an adult female, as she dug through the hard, dry earth looking for rhizomes to eat. Paul looked around; the rest of the troop was nowhere to be seen in the rolling grasslands, though they couldn't have been far. Then, he let out a loud scream—something baboons usually only do when they're in real trouble. Within seconds, Paul's mother, who's Mel's superior, came charging in, chased her off, and both of them cleared out. Paul just wandered forward and started snacking on the rhizome himself."

Richard Leakey and Roger Laven - Rethinking Origins - Man's Search for Meaning - p. 246 Penguin Random House 2005.

It’s pretty clear that in this case, we're looking at a very "sophisticated" bit of deception, even by a baboon's standards.
So, what defines a "deception" to you? And how much weight do you give its role in the evolution of human consciousness?

Here’s my take on it... The core engine behind human progress is Interest. I'm not talking about some rigid theorem—some people get way too fanatical about those—but rather a heuristic. Basically, if you look at the stats, there's a massive deviation here; we're talking a majority of the population, easily over 90%, who weigh every single move they make against their own self-interest. 😬

So, for that vast majority to turn that interest into something tangible—you know, cold hard cash—they have to engage in marketing. They have to package themselves and their skills to sell them on the open market... just so the whole system of retail can actually function! 👍

And let's be real: retail is just a legalized scam. It's a deception backed by the law and protected by the state. 😍

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions based on my philosophy. 🙂

Ronald Rogers27

Mark Torres14 said:"Paul, a young baboon, stepped up to watch Mel, an adult female, as she dug through the hard, dry earth looking for rhizomes to eat. Paul looked around; the rest of the troop was nowhere to be seen in the rolling grasslands, though they couldn't have been far. Then, he let out a loud scream—something baboons usually only do when they're in real trouble. Within seconds, Paul's mother, who's Mel's superior, came charging in, chased her off, and both of them cleared out. Paul just wandered forward and started snacking on the rhizome himself."

Richard Leakey and Roger Laven - Rethinking Origins - Man's Search for Meaning - p. 246 Penguin Random House 2005.

It’s pretty clear that in this case, we're looking at a very "sophisticated" bit of deception, even by a baboon's standards.
So, what defines a "deception" to you? And how much weight do you give its role in the evolution of human consciousness?

Well, look, this little baboon was actually quite clever at getting what he wanted. We can probably assume that as he grows up, he’ll refine that whole system—assuming no one reads his mind and stops him—and eventually become a real pro at manipulation...😁
But honestly, a deception always requires two players—the one pulling the strings and the one being played. Take, for instance, that whole scandal involving Index and The Wall Street Journal. Both sides, the students and the professors alike, essentially signed up for the fraud (which meant they ended up playing both the deceiver and the victim simultaneously). To me, it feels like they were mostly just deceiving themselves, though I suppose that still leaves a mark on society as a whole...
As for whether deception matters in the development of human consciousness, I'd say absolutely, because it's in those moments where a person chooses to act either for or against dishonesty, and in doing so, they forge their own awareness of themselves and the world at large...

Ronald Rogers27 said:Here’s my take on it... The core engine behind human progress is Interest. I'm not talking about some rigid theorem—some people get way too fanatical about those—but rather a heuristic. Basically, if you look at the stats, there's a massive deviation here; we're talking a majority of the population, easily over 90%, who weigh every single move they make against their own self-interest. 😬

So, for that vast majority to turn that interest into something tangible—you know, cold hard cash—they have to engage in marketing. They have to package themselves and their skills to sell them on the open market... just so the whole system of retail can actually function! 👍

And let's be real: retail is just a legalized scam. It's a deception backed by the law and protected by the state. 😍

I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions based on my philosophy. 🙂

Ronald Rogers27

Picture an early human. They belong to a primate species defined by complex social structures, yet they lack any specialized physical edge. They can't sprint like a cheetah, they don't have an elephant's trunk, eagle vision, or a cobra's venomous bite. All they have is a highly developed brain featuring a well-evolved Broc area for language. But that brain is trapped in a body with relatively harmless limbs—limbs that became useless once the forests retreated and the open plains took over, leaving them exposed to all sorts of dangers.
How do you survive?
In my view, survival in that scenario requires one thing:

Predicting how predators and competitors behave. It’s basically the "what would I do if I were him" mindset. The reality is that our consciousnesses are remarkably similar, reacting to various situations in pretty much the same way. To even pull off that kind of mental projection, you have to establish a relationship of "me vs. him" or "me vs. them." In the situation I'm describing, Paul pulled off a sophisticated deception based exactly on that logic. He knew that if he started acting like there was danger, his mother would come running to chase off Mel, leaving him free to eat the rhizome. His brain had to step out of the present moment and dive straight into the future. The entire scenario was already mapped out in his head; he just had to execute it.

rustymaker5 said:Well, look, this little baboon was actually quite clever at getting what he wanted. We can probably assume that as he grows up, he’ll refine that whole system—assuming no one reads his mind and stops him—and eventually become a real pro at manipulation...😁
But honestly, a deception always requires two players—the one pulling the strings and the one being played. Take, for instance, that whole scandal involving Index and The Wall Street Journal. Both sides, the students and the professors alike, essentially signed up for the fraud (which meant they ended up playing both the deceiver and the victim simultaneously). To me, it feels like they were mostly just deceiving themselves, though I suppose that still leaves a mark on society as a whole...
As for whether deception matters in the development of human consciousness, I'd say absolutely, because it's in those moments where a person chooses to act either for or against dishonesty, and in doing so, they forge their own awareness of themselves and the world at large...

Interesting point.
We always say that by trying to cheat others, we end up cheating ourselves. But can you actually cheat yourself?

Mark Torres14 said:Interesting point.
We always say that by trying to cheat others, we end up cheating ourselves. But can you actually cheat yourself?

And I have to wonder, why do so many people walk around so deeply dissatisfied with who they are and the lives they’ve built? 🤷

Take those kids at a top-tier business school, for instance... if they breeze through to graduation by cutting corners and cheating their way through exams, do you really think that’s going to serve them in the real world? They won't have the actual knowledge, they won't have learned the value of integrity, and they’ll never feel that genuine sense of accomplishment or self-worth... isn't that just the ultimate form of self-deception?
The professors are no different, really. Why bother spending years studying and committing to teaching others, only to turn around and peddle ignorance and incompetence for a meager paycheck? Aren't they betraying themselves, and the very noble ideals that led them to academia in the first place?
And what about the person who spends their entire career grinding away at a job they absolutely loathe? Aren't they essentially lying to themselves every single day?
Or consider a woman staying with an abusive husband... isn't she deceiving herself by constantly inventing excuses to justify staying in such a marriage?
Isn't there a profound self-deception in the person who spends their whole life compulsively hoarding material wealth, under the delusion that stuff will eventually lead to fulfillment or happiness?

Even that young kid you mentioned in your opening post... he might be falling for the same trap. What happens if his mother passes away and he realizes he never actually learned how to take care of himself because he always chose the path of least resistance? He'll find himself cast out by society, completely unprepared because he was raised to let everyone else fight his battles for him...🤷

rustymaker5 said:And I have to wonder, why do so many people walk around so deeply dissatisfied with who they are and the lives they’ve built? 🤷

Take those kids at a top-tier business school, for instance... if they breeze through to graduation by cutting corners and cheating their way through exams, do you really think that’s going to serve them in the real world? They won't have the actual knowledge, they won't have learned the value of integrity, and they’ll never feel that genuine sense of accomplishment or self-worth... isn't that just the ultimate form of self-deception?
The professors are no different, really. Why bother spending years studying and committing to teaching others, only to turn around and peddle ignorance and incompetence for a meager paycheck? Aren't they betraying themselves, and the very noble ideals that led them to academia in the first place?
And what about the person who spends their entire career grinding away at a job they absolutely loathe? Aren't they essentially lying to themselves every single day?
Or consider a woman staying with an abusive husband... isn't she deceiving herself by constantly inventing excuses to justify staying in such a marriage?
Isn't there a profound self-deception in the person who spends their whole life compulsively hoarding material wealth, under the delusion that stuff will eventually lead to fulfillment or happiness?

Even that young kid you mentioned in your opening post... he might be falling for the same trap. What happens if his mother passes away and he realizes he never actually learned how to take care of himself because he always chose the path of least resistance? He'll find himself cast out by society, completely unprepared because he was raised to let everyone else fight his battles for him...🤷

Man, rustymaker5, you’re spot on, but I don't care about that kind of cheating.
I’m interested in something else.
What specific conditions does consciousness need to meet before it can actually start pulling a fast one?
Take the baboon example.
1. He’d need the ability to predict how other baboons—his mother, in this case—will react. He has to gauge her response.
2. He needs some concept of "self" versus "other," especially since the goal is getting food the easy way.
3. He needs a visual perception of future events—his screaming leading to the mother arriving, her reaction, driving Mel away, leaving the scene, and finally eating the rhizomes once Mel is gone.
4. All of this points to the existence of a plan, which means contemplating a situation that doesn't exist in the present, but in the future.

The way consciousness behaves here raises questions about the relationship between "I" and "him"—is it imitation, or stepping into someone else's shoes? It involves a feedback loop back to the self, pondering the ultimate consequences for the self—getting the food—and, most importantly to me, the presence of intent (consciousness) to lie—screaming as if there's actual danger.
Sure, a baboon is a primitive example, and when you apply this to humans, it takes on a much larger dimension. It would be interesting to consider what level human consciousness actually exists on. Is it a whole entity fused with the future (a constant "cheat"), an entity that exists in the present and only uses future scenarios when it serves an interest, or is the human mind permanently stuck in the future because perceiving a frozen "present" is impossible?

To pull off a real scam, you need actual intelligence, wit, and a functioning brain...
Baboon pulled it off because he was smart, which doesn't mean that if he ever hits a situation
like the one rustymaker5 described just now—say his mother passes away and he gets kicked out on the street—that he won't find a way to survive...
Because being unintelligent is basically an inability to adapt, whereas the opposite means you'll figure it out, and clearly those students and professors involved in that Forbes scandal weren't quite smart enough to fleece the government successfully.
In my view, to execute a perfect scam—meaning the victim has no idea they've been had, because once they realize it, the game is over—you have to be incredibly sharp...
And it’s impossible to truly scam yourself; you can make mistakes or misinterpret things, but you can't actually deceive yourself...

"It would be interesting to consider the level at which human consciousness exists. As a whole entity connected to the future (a constant 'deception'), as an entity existing in the present that only utilizes imagined future scenarios when an interest arises, or is the human mind constantly in the future because perceiving a frozen present is simply impossible."

This is my first post here, so sorry for quoting you like this, I just didn't really grasp where you were going with that...
What exactly defines a scam to you?

Are you talking about the kind of mental makeup someone needs so they don't feel guilty after conning someone (conscience), or are you saying we're always thinking ahead, and when we have a goal or an interest, we just redirect our thoughts toward fulfilling it? Please clarify...

.. the whole narrative is broken .. humanity didn't possess the consciousness of deception for thousands of years .. and long before we understood how to cheat, we understood the reality of raw force ..
.. this story is just an attempt to justify the world as it is .. which makes it part of a twisted ideology ..
.. consciousness evolves .. and the version we hold today won't be the one that exists tomorrow ..
.. yet, we can start building tomorrow's consciousness right now .. through prayer ..
.. damn it, God ..

Bradley Hayes36 said:To pull off a real scam, you need actual intelligence, wit, and a functioning brain...
Baboon pulled it off because he was smart, which doesn't mean that if he ever hits a situation
like the one rustymaker5 described just now—say his mother passes away and he gets kicked out on the street—that he won't find a way to survive...
Because being unintelligent is basically an inability to adapt, whereas the opposite means you'll figure it out, and clearly those students and professors involved in that Forbes scandal weren't quite smart enough to fleece the government successfully.
In my view, to execute a perfect scam—meaning the victim has no idea they've been had, because once they realize it, the game is over—you have to be incredibly sharp...
And it’s impossible to truly scam yourself; you can make mistakes or misinterpret things, but you can't actually deceive yourself...

"It would be interesting to consider the level at which human consciousness exists. As a whole entity connected to the future (a constant 'deception'), as an entity existing in the present that only utilizes imagined future scenarios when an interest arises, or is the human mind constantly in the future because perceiving a frozen present is simply impossible."

This is my first post here, so sorry for quoting you like this, I just didn't really grasp where you were going with that...
What exactly defines a scam to you?

Are you talking about the kind of mental makeup someone needs so they don't feel guilty after conning someone (conscience), or are you saying we're always thinking ahead, and when we have a goal or an interest, we just redirect our thoughts toward fulfilling it? Please clarify...

👍excellent Quote

In my opinion, to pull off a perfect scam—meaning the victim has no idea they've been conned, because once they realize it, it's not a scam anymore—you have to be incredibly sharp.

What defines a perfect scam? The victim stays clueless, or the whole thing is executed so smoothly it looks totally legitimate.😁

It's also impossible for a person to cheat themselves. They can make mistakes or think differently, but they can't deceive themselves.

I agree, though we don't necessarily have to be right. Right now, I can't wrap my head around self-deception, but reality is messier than that. The line isn't that clear. It’s more like a gray area.

This is my first post, so sorry for quoting like this; I didn't quite catch where you were heading with this.

You'll manage. Every journey starts with a single step.

So, what's your definition of a scam?

It seems important to me. But I'm not ready to commit to a formal definition just yet.

Are you talking about the mental state required to not feel guilty when you cheat someone (conscience), or are you talking about how we constantly shift our focus toward a goal or interest? Please clarify.

I'm on a tiny laptop, so typing is a pain. I can't get away from my kids to use my other computers.
Good catch on the connection between cheating and conscience.
It's funny how our conscience eats at us when we cheat a person, but when we trick an animal (like a baboon), we find it amusing. It implies that conscience is purely a cultural construct.

redtinker36 said:.. the whole narrative is broken .. humanity didn't possess the consciousness of deception for thousands of years .. and long before we understood how to cheat, we understood the reality of raw force ..
.. this story is just an attempt to justify the world as it is .. which makes it part of a twisted ideology ..
.. consciousness evolves .. and the version we hold today won't be the one that exists tomorrow ..
.. yet, we can start building tomorrow's consciousness right now .. through prayer ..
.. damn it, God ..

Truth. It’s like trying to catch the wind with your bare hands. But if consciousness wants to actually grasp something, it has to grab it, flip it over, smell it, taste it, weigh it, and then finally make up its mind.
He's basically taking snapshots of a concept, killing it in the process, because that's the only way he thinks he can prove reality exists right now.
Explain this "consciousness of power" bit.🙂

Mark Torres14 said:👍excellent Quote

In my opinion, to pull off a perfect scam—meaning the victim has no idea they've been conned, because once they realize it, it's not a scam anymore—you have to be incredibly sharp.

What defines a perfect scam? The victim stays clueless, or the whole thing is executed so smoothly it looks totally legitimate.😁

It's also impossible for a person to cheat themselves. They can make mistakes or think differently, but they can't deceive themselves.

I agree, though we don't necessarily have to be right. Right now, I can't wrap my head around self-deception, but reality is messier than that. The line isn't that clear. It’s more like a gray area.

This is my first post, so sorry for quoting like this; I didn't quite catch where you were heading with this.

You'll manage. Every journey starts with a single step.

So, what's your definition of a scam?

It seems important to me. But I'm not ready to commit to a formal definition just yet.

Are you talking about the mental state required to not feel guilty when you cheat someone (conscience), or are you talking about how we constantly shift our focus toward a goal or interest? Please clarify.

I'm on a tiny laptop, so typing is a pain. I can't get away from my kids to use my other computers.
Good catch on the connection between cheating and conscience.
It's funny how our conscience eats at us when we cheat a person, but when we trick an animal (like a baboon), we find it amusing. It implies that conscience is purely a cultural construct.

Conscience doesn't give a damn about cheating someone else... it only kicks in when you do something that fails your own internal bullshit standards. I could be a complete lunatic and decide that murder is actually a righteous act, and if my own twisted logic says it’s fine, my conscience wouldn't feel a single thing...
It’s like that old story about Robin Hood... he’s nothing but a thief, yet everyone sides with him, even himself, because he’s convinced his own brand of chaos is actually doing some kind of good...

Mark Torres14 said:👍excellent Quote

In my opinion, to pull off a perfect scam—meaning the victim has no idea they've been conned, because once they realize it, it's not a scam anymore—you have to be incredibly sharp.

What defines a perfect scam? The victim stays clueless, or the whole thing is executed so smoothly it looks totally legitimate.😁

It's also impossible for a person to cheat themselves. They can make mistakes or think differently, but they can't deceive themselves.

I agree, though we don't necessarily have to be right. Right now, I can't wrap my head around self-deception, but reality is messier than that. The line isn't that clear. It’s more like a gray area.

This is my first post, so sorry for quoting like this; I didn't quite catch where you were heading with this.

You'll manage. Every journey starts with a single step.

So, what's your definition of a scam?

It seems important to me. But I'm not ready to commit to a formal definition just yet.

Are you talking about the mental state required to not feel guilty when you cheat someone (conscience), or are you talking about how we constantly shift our focus toward a goal or interest? Please clarify.

I'm on a tiny laptop, so typing is a pain. I can't get away from my kids to use my other computers.
Good catch on the connection between cheating and conscience.
It's funny how our conscience eats at us when we cheat a person, but when we trick an animal (like a baboon), we find it amusing. It implies that conscience is purely a cultural construct.

If the victim doesn't even realize they’ve been taken for a ride, then calling it a scam is a stretch... because if you can make a fraud look like a legitimate deal, it could pass for anything at all. But once you actually realize you've been played, that's when the whole thing falls apart and the con truly fails...

So, we’re back to playing philosopher again, I guess... which means we're talking about deception, three people involved, and this whole mess. Now, you think you managed to pull one over on me? Honestly, I didn't even realize I was being played, but if Mark looks at this as a neutral observer, there isn't any actual payoff for anyone yet... not right now, anyway. In that exact moment, sure, the scam worked. But five minutes later, Mark could just turn to me and say, "Hey, you got cheated," and suddenly the whole thing falls apart. He could stay silent forever and the scam stays successful, or he could go straight to you, tell you what happened, and suggest you split the loot fifty-fifty, and the scam still technically works... but the fact that you're feeling the squeeze of blackmail right now? You can thank Mark for that...

So, I went back and reworked this post... tweaked the angle, expanded my thoughts about five times over just to make sure I actually said what I meant...

Bradley Hayes36 said:Conscience doesn't give a damn about cheating someone else... it only kicks in when you do something that fails your own internal bullshit standards. I could be a complete lunatic and decide that murder is actually a righteous act, and if my own twisted logic says it’s fine, my conscience wouldn't feel a single thing...
It’s like that old story about Robin Hood... he’s nothing but a thief, yet everyone sides with him, even himself, because he’s convinced his own brand of chaos is actually doing some kind of good...

If the victim doesn't even realize they’ve been taken for a ride, then calling it a scam is a stretch... because if you can make a fraud look like a legitimate deal, it could pass for anything at all. But once you actually realize you've been played, that's when the whole thing falls apart and the con truly fails...

So, we’re back to playing philosopher again, I guess... which means we're talking about deception, three people involved, and this whole mess. Now, you think you managed to pull one over on me? Honestly, I didn't even realize I was being played, but if Mark looks at this as a neutral observer, there isn't any actual payoff for anyone yet... not right now, anyway. In that exact moment, sure, the scam worked. But five minutes later, Mark could just turn to me and say, "Hey, you got cheated," and suddenly the whole thing falls apart. He could stay silent forever and the scam stays successful, or he could go straight to you, tell you what happened, and suggest you split the loot fifty-fifty, and the scam still technically works... but the fact that you're feeling the squeeze of blackmail right now? You can thank Mark for that...

So, I went back and reworked this post... tweaked the angle, expanded my thoughts about five times over just to make sure I actually said what I meant...

Spot on. Conscience is just our own moral yardstick. But I’m looking at the cultural roots of guilt when it comes to deception. In any society, cheating is viewed negatively. On one hand, society punishes the cheater; on the other, the very social fabric (what Marx would call the superstructure) is built to trigger guilt in the person doing the lying.
Basically, does a baboon feel guilty after a scam?

If the victim doesn't realize they've been conned—if it looks totally legitimate—then it's a different story. But if you find out you were played, then the scam failed.

Deception is interesting specifically because it's complicated. At some level, it turns into manipulation where even the person pulling the strings doesn't realize they're lying. They convince themselves they're doing the right thing. But that isn't a scam. That's just delusion.
A scam requires intent.

That's getting philosophical again, which is the whole point. Let's say there are three people involved. You trick me, and I don't know it yet. But Mark is standing there as a neutral observer. He sees everything, but he gains nothing—at that moment, the scam worked. But five minutes later, Mark tells me I've been had. Now the scam failed. Or maybe he stays silent forever and the scam succeeds. Or maybe he tells us both and we split the loot fifty-fifty—still a success. If you end up being blackmailed later, blame Mark.

The one who cheats the sea has to account for the "Mark factor." If he's unpredictable, the whole scam becomes unstable.

I actually ended up rewriting this post five times while typing it, trying to refine my point.

Slow down. I usually just write the first thing that pops into my head. Usually, it's the best version anyway. Why overthink it? We're just talking. Even if we mess up, Freddie isn't going to come after us. 😍
Just that jerk executioner. 😁

Mark Torres14 said:Man, rustymaker5, you’re spot on, but I don't care about that kind of cheating.
I’m interested in something else.
What specific conditions does consciousness need to meet before it can actually start pulling a fast one?
Take the baboon example.
1. He’d need the ability to predict how other baboons—his mother, in this case—will react. He has to gauge her response.
2. He needs some concept of "self" versus "other," especially since the goal is getting food the easy way.
3. He needs a visual perception of future events—his screaming leading to the mother arriving, her reaction, driving Mel away, leaving the scene, and finally eating the rhizomes once Mel is gone.
4. All of this points to the existence of a plan, which means contemplating a situation that doesn't exist in the present, but in the future.

The way consciousness behaves here raises questions about the relationship between "I" and "him"—is it imitation, or stepping into someone else's shoes? It involves a feedback loop back to the self, pondering the ultimate consequences for the self—getting the food—and, most importantly to me, the presence of intent (consciousness) to lie—screaming as if there's actual danger.
Sure, a baboon is a primitive example, and when you apply this to humans, it takes on a much larger dimension. It would be interesting to consider what level human consciousness actually exists on. Is it a whole entity fused with the future (a constant "cheat"), an entity that exists in the present and only uses future scenarios when it serves an interest, or is the human mind permanently stuck in the future because perceiving a frozen "present" is impossible?

So, looking at this from a first glance... since human consciousness is fundamentally tied to our material existence—that whole rational side of things that basically constitutes the ego—the only real prerequisite that matters would have to be free will. You need the actual capacity to choose the wrong path, to consciously opt for something bad, or rather, to embrace deception... everything else is just extra layers built on top of that core reality...

Mark Torres14 said:Man, rustymaker5, you’re spot on, but I don't care about that kind of cheating.
I’m interested in something else.
What specific conditions does consciousness need to meet before it can actually start pulling a fast one?
Take the baboon example.
1. He’d need the ability to predict how other baboons—his mother, in this case—will react. He has to gauge her response.
2. He needs some concept of "self" versus "other," especially since the goal is getting food the easy way.
3. He needs a visual perception of future events—his screaming leading to the mother arriving, her reaction, driving Mel away, leaving the scene, and finally eating the rhizomes once Mel is gone.
4. All of this points to the existence of a plan, which means contemplating a situation that doesn't exist in the present, but in the future.

The way consciousness behaves here raises questions about the relationship between "I" and "him"—is it imitation, or stepping into someone else's shoes? It involves a feedback loop back to the self, pondering the ultimate consequences for the self—getting the food—and, most importantly to me, the presence of intent (consciousness) to lie—screaming as if there's actual danger.
Sure, a baboon is a primitive example, and when you apply this to humans, it takes on a much larger dimension. It would be interesting to consider what level human consciousness actually exists on. Is it a whole entity fused with the future (a constant "cheat"), an entity that exists in the present and only uses future scenarios when it serves an interest, or is the human mind permanently stuck in the future because perceiving a frozen "present" is impossible?

Yeah, but there’s always that risk of someone getting jealous and throwing a wrench in the works... I mean, once you start involving other people, any kind of "planning" is basically just begging for things to fall apart. Like you said, a total amateur could just... predicting... How exactly would she react, and would she actually go through with it... I mean, Mel could have just stepped in, told her off, or maybe even broken the news to her mother that there wasn't any danger at all. But honestly, the kid could only really feel certain about how things would play out if he knew this kind of thing had happened before—if he was absolutely sure his mother would react exactly the way she did this time around. It’s like he wasn't even looking forward to what might happen next, he was just leaning entirely on what had already gone down in the past... 🤷

It’s pretty much the same deal when you look at how people act in society... A con artist, for instance, isn't exactly sitting around planning on getting caught, because if they were, they wouldn't bother starting the scam in the first place. Once they pull it off just once, they basically spend the rest of their time just hoping they can catch that same lightning in a bottle again...
Honestly, it’s all just one big gamble at this point, because we aren't even in a position to... predicting... Everything that could possibly go wrong in the future... you know, some people just sit there and consciously factor every single potential risk into their daily behavior, and then they end up spiraling into these endless loops of overthinking every possible scenario, even though obsessing over those hypothetical disasters doesn't actually provide any real guarantee that what they're imagining will ever actually happen...

excellent Quote

Mark Torres14 said:Man, rustymaker5, you’re spot on, but I don't care about that kind of cheating.
I’m interested in something else.
What specific conditions does consciousness need to meet before it can actually start pulling a fast one?
Take the baboon example.
1. He’d need the ability to predict how other baboons—his mother, in this case—will react. He has to gauge her response.
2. He needs some concept of "self" versus "other," especially since the goal is getting food the easy way.
3. He needs a visual perception of future events—his screaming leading to the mother arriving, her reaction, driving Mel away, leaving the scene, and finally eating the rhizomes once Mel is gone.
4. All of this points to the existence of a plan, which means contemplating a situation that doesn't exist in the present, but in the future.

The way consciousness behaves here raises questions about the relationship between "I" and "him"—is it imitation, or stepping into someone else's shoes? It involves a feedback loop back to the self, pondering the ultimate consequences for the self—getting the food—and, most importantly to me, the presence of intent (consciousness) to lie—screaming as if there's actual danger.
Sure, a baboon is a primitive example, and when you apply this to humans, it takes on a much larger dimension. It would be interesting to consider what level human consciousness actually exists on. Is it a whole entity fused with the future (a constant "cheat"), an entity that exists in the present and only uses future scenarios when it serves an interest, or is the human mind permanently stuck in the future because perceiving a frozen "present" is impossible?

I’ve been thinking lately that human consciousness actually exists across all different planes at once... You see so many people just stuck living in the past, trapped in old memories and constantly mourning things they can't change no matter how much they wish they could. Then you have those who spend their entire lives just waiting for some future event to happen—clinging to hopes that might never even materialize, which is a pretty heavy way to live... But honestly, the best path belongs to those who consciously build their existence right here in the present, because only they truly possess the free will required to decide what kind of life they want to create.
(Of course, when I say "the present," I’m talking about it in a conversational sense, not suggesting that the present doesn't exist in a physical way, since by the time you've even finished a thought, it's already slipped into the past...)

Bradley Hayes36 said:To pull off a real scam, you need actual intelligence, wit, and a functioning brain...
Baboon pulled it off because he was smart, which doesn't mean that if he ever hits a situation
like the one rustymaker5 described just now—say his mother passes away and he gets kicked out on the street—that he won't find a way to survive...
Because being unintelligent is basically an inability to adapt, whereas the opposite means you'll figure it out, and clearly those students and professors involved in that Forbes scandal weren't quite smart enough to fleece the government successfully.
In my view, to execute a perfect scam—meaning the victim has no idea they've been had, because once they realize it, the game is over—you have to be incredibly sharp...
And it’s impossible to truly scam yourself; you can make mistakes or misinterpret things, but you can't actually deceive yourself...

"It would be interesting to consider the level at which human consciousness exists. As a whole entity connected to the future (a constant 'deception'), as an entity existing in the present that only utilizes imagined future scenarios when an interest arises, or is the human mind constantly in the future because perceiving a frozen present is simply impossible."

This is my first post here, so sorry for quoting you like this, I just didn't really grasp where you were going with that...
What exactly defines a scam to you?

Are you talking about the kind of mental makeup someone needs so they don't feel guilty after conning someone (conscience), or are you saying we're always thinking ahead, and when we have a goal or an interest, we just redirect our thoughts toward fulfilling it? Please clarify...

Well, you need all those things just to function in everyday life too... ☕
What a scam really requires is the conscious, deliberate choice to be a bad person.

Mark Torres14 said:"Paul, a young baboon, stepped up to watch Mel, an adult female, as she dug through the hard, dry earth looking for rhizomes to eat. Paul looked around; the rest of the troop was nowhere to be seen in the rolling grasslands, though they couldn't have been far. Then, he let out a loud scream—something baboons usually only do when they're in real trouble. Within seconds, Paul's mother, who's Mel's superior, came charging in, chased her off, and both of them cleared out. Paul just wandered forward and started snacking on the rhizome himself."

Richard Leakey and Roger Laven - Rethinking Origins - Man's Search for Meaning - p. 246 Penguin Random House 2005.

It’s pretty clear that in this case, we're looking at a very "sophisticated" bit of deception, even by a baboon's standards.
So, what defines a "deception" to you? And how much weight do you give its role in the evolution of human consciousness?

Someone once told me that we aren't actually the descendants of the brave hunters who faced danger head-on to grab a meal. No, we're the descendants of the ones who waited behind a corner, hit the other guy with a stick, and took his food.

Deception has always been a shortcut to getting ahead, both for ourselves and others. It’s been part of the human playbook since the beginning, and even with all the moralizing today, it’s still going strong.

.. yeah .. it’s all wrong .. just pure ideology ..
.. you want to treat deception as something sacred—above God itself—just to justify the neighbors and the Americans ..
.. honestly, you, the neighbors, and the Americans can all go to hell ..
.. why .. well, because the Bible says ..
.. when the first man thought he could live off the labor of another .. he wasn't thinking about a con .. he was thinking about force .. he thought about grabbing someone by the throat ..
.. but that didn't work .. it only worked once the world started dividing itself .. into masters and slaves .. only then .. and only then did Heraclitus say that war is the father of everything ..
.. scams were developed even later .. and .. they're just like today's .. where people are willing to kill millions just to turn a profit .. it's not that it never crossed a human mind .. it's that it should never be allowed to cross a human mind .. so those who actually think this way .. they aren't really human .. they're just cursed seeds ..

.. watch yourselves .. damn it .. something might be okay, but too much of a bad thing is never worth it ..
.. think about it one more time .. is this really what you want .. which god do you want to serve .. a little black one .. with horns and a tail .. ?

rustymaker5 said:So, looking at this from a first glance... since human consciousness is fundamentally tied to our material existence—that whole rational side of things that basically constitutes the ego—the only real prerequisite that matters would have to be free will. You need the actual capacity to choose the wrong path, to consciously opt for something bad, or rather, to embrace deception... everything else is just extra layers built on top of that core reality...

Yeah, but there’s always that risk of someone getting jealous and throwing a wrench in the works... I mean, once you start involving other people, any kind of "planning" is basically just begging for things to fall apart. Like you said, a total amateur could just... predicting... How exactly would she react, and would she actually go through with it... I mean, Mel could have just stepped in, told her off, or maybe even broken the news to her mother that there wasn't any danger at all. But honestly, the kid could only really feel certain about how things would play out if he knew this kind of thing had happened before—if he was absolutely sure his mother would react exactly the way she did this time around. It’s like he wasn't even looking forward to what might happen next, he was just leaning entirely on what had already gone down in the past... 🤷

It’s pretty much the same deal when you look at how people act in society... A con artist, for instance, isn't exactly sitting around planning on getting caught, because if they were, they wouldn't bother starting the scam in the first place. Once they pull it off just once, they basically spend the rest of their time just hoping they can catch that same lightning in a bottle again...
Honestly, it’s all just one big gamble at this point, because we aren't even in a position to... predicting... Everything that could possibly go wrong in the future... you know, some people just sit there and consciously factor every single potential risk into their daily behavior, and then they end up spiraling into these endless loops of overthinking every possible scenario, even though obsessing over those hypothetical disasters doesn't actually provide any real guarantee that what they're imagining will ever actually happen...

excellent Quote

I’ve been thinking lately that human consciousness actually exists across all different planes at once... You see so many people just stuck living in the past, trapped in old memories and constantly mourning things they can't change no matter how much they wish they could. Then you have those who spend their entire lives just waiting for some future event to happen—clinging to hopes that might never even materialize, which is a pretty heavy way to live... But honestly, the best path belongs to those who consciously build their existence right here in the present, because only they truly possess the free will required to decide what kind of life they want to create.
(Of course, when I say "the present," I’m talking about it in a conversational sense, not suggesting that the present doesn't exist in a physical way, since by the time you've even finished a thought, it's already slipped into the past...)

I bolded the parts I think matter.
A scam isn't just about planning; it's about using what happened before. We aren't just talking about the present or future anymore—we're bringing the past into it.
Bottom line: Baboon used his past experience to make a calculated guess about the future just to get fed right now. He banked on how his mom and Mel would react.

It’s the same in human society. A con artist doesn't plan on getting caught; if they did, they wouldn't bother scamming in the first place. If they pulled it off once, they just hope lightning strikes twice.

But the whole point of a scam is minimizing risk. Being able to foresee every single thing that could go wrong is what makes a con artist skilled. And to be skilled, you have to be smart. Idiots pull stupid scams that fail every single time.

I believe human consciousness exists on all levels.

👍

Gary James88 said:Someone once told me that we aren't actually the descendants of the brave hunters who faced danger head-on to grab a meal. No, we're the descendants of the ones who waited behind a corner, hit the other guy with a stick, and took his food.

Deception has always been a shortcut to getting ahead, both for ourselves and others. It’s been part of the human playbook since the beginning, and even with all the moralizing today, it’s still going strong.

Great.
I want to talk about fraud without getting all bogged down in "good vs. evil" nonsense.

redtinker36 said:.. yeah .. it’s all wrong .. just pure ideology ..
.. you want to treat deception as something sacred—above God itself—just to justify the neighbors and the Americans ..
.. honestly, you, the neighbors, and the Americans can all go to hell ..
.. why .. well, because the Bible says ..
.. when the first man thought he could live off the labor of another .. he wasn't thinking about a con .. he was thinking about force .. he thought about grabbing someone by the throat ..
.. but that didn't work .. it only worked once the world started dividing itself .. into masters and slaves .. only then .. and only then did Heraclitus say that war is the father of everything ..
.. scams were developed even later .. and .. they're just like today's .. where people are willing to kill millions just to turn a profit .. it's not that it never crossed a human mind .. it's that it should never be allowed to cross a human mind .. so those who actually think this way .. they aren't really human .. they're just cursed seeds ..

.. watch yourselves .. damn it .. something might be okay, but too much of a bad thing is never worth it ..
.. think about it one more time .. is this really what you want .. which god do you want to serve .. a little black one .. with horns and a tail .. ?

Mark Torres14. My starting point is that deception grew out of an evolutionary need. If you don't have any serious weapons besides a big brain, then that brain has to find another way to protect the body it lives in.
Deception probably started with hunting animals, and later, due to complex primate social structures, it became a tool for group survival.
Nobody likes being conned, especially if you're a man and you realize you've been played. That's why some people, refusing to admit how easily they're fooled, insist they haven't been, even when they know they were, or knew it was coming.
Getting conned means losing your status in society, doesn't it?😉