Theosophy

darkraven said:April was honestly a bit of a letdown. I've been digging through my OBE journal lately, and here’s the breakdown:

On April 1st, around 5:10 AM, I hit my 34th OBE, but the whole thing cut out the second I actually managed to "exit the body" and tried to stabilize the experience.

Then on April 2nd, around 6:34 AM, I gave it a shot, but the exit process felt sluggish and heavy—I just couldn't break free.

I drifted off again and then at about 8:02 AM, I had my 35th OBE. I actually managed to get out this time, but it ended just as abruptly as the one before.

On April 4th, I had another attempt. This counts as a success in the sense that I triggered what some folks here call the "astral body," but I just couldn't fully separate.

After falling back asleep, around 6:30 AM, I had my 36th OBE. This one was pretty wild because I didn't feel like I had a physical body at all; I was moving through space differently, just sort of floating... it was tough to control. I even tried flying by just heading straight through the window (I was on the second floor) and glided down the street for a bit, though the scenery looked a little different from how it looks in the real world.

April 5th, at both 5:27 and 6:35 AM, I had attempts... and yeah, I don't think I need to explain why those failed.

April 6th, at 7:13 AM, another attempt.

April 7th, at 6:39 AM, yet another try... couldn't get out.

April 10th at 2:09 AM, April 12th at 3:19 AM and 6:42 AM... nothing but attempts.

On April 13th at 11:31 PM, I had my 37th OBE, but as soon as I tried to steady myself, it was like my legs gave out and the whole experience vanished.

April 15th at 5:46 AM, my 38th OBE. I actually made it out and reached the desk in my 'room.' I was just starting to feel the texture of it under my hands when everything cut to black.

April 18th at 4:17 AM, another attempt... you guys know the drill.

On April 21st at 10:58 PM, I had my 39th OBE. This one was unique because I induced it while trying to fall asleep—basically without the usual pre-sleep phase. But once again, I only made it as far as the desk... the experience ended before I could even really see anything.

April 23rd at 5:07 AM—my 40th OBE. Once again, it died the moment I started trying to stabilize.

And that's pretty much it for the month. I think I need to take a breather from all this during May.

March was actually more interesting since I managed to do a bit of exploring in some of those sessions... but nothing major.

I’ve seen a pretty significant shift on my end, even though I don't keep formal, studio-style notes like that. In fact, I don't keep any records at all; I mostly just go by intuition... but your topic actually inspired something in me. A new method for inducing LS. At least, it's new to me.

It’s a modification of 'state testing,' but approached through sensory input. It’s almost like 'mindfulness.' Essentially, I study the physical properties of objects whenever the thought strikes me. How firm or soft a surface feels, how heavy certain items are, feeling various textures, checking if I can pass my hand through a wall, and things of that nature. And it has definitely reflected in the quality of my dreams. They aren't lucid, necessarily, but they have become much more vivid.

Drew Moore5 said:That isn't a judgment, though. It's just a fact.

By making this post, you're essentially passing judgment yourself. You're picking a side.

I guess I'm not really judging, though... I mean, you're the one who wrote those things about Leadbiter yourself. Maybe just watch out so people don't start judging you back.

Charles Wood73 said:I’ve seen a pretty significant shift on my end, even though I don't keep formal, studio-style notes like that. In fact, I don't keep any records at all; I mostly just go by intuition... but your topic actually inspired something in me. A new method for inducing LS. At least, it's new to me.

It’s a modification of 'state testing,' but approached through sensory input. It’s almost like 'mindfulness.' Essentially, I study the physical properties of objects whenever the thought strikes me. How firm or soft a surface feels, how heavy certain items are, feeling various textures, checking if I can pass my hand through a wall, and things of that nature. And it has definitely reflected in the quality of my dreams. They aren't lucid, necessarily, but they have become much more vivid.

Is this what you mean?

Preventing premature awakening

By informally experimenting in bed at home, lucid dreamers have found several ways to stay in the dream state when they feel a sudden urge to wake up. Most of these methods involve performing some sort of action within the dream the moment the visuals start to fade.

Linda Magallon, editor and publisher of the Dream Network Bulletin and an intrepid Explorer of lucid dreams, has described how she prevents herself from waking up by focusing on senses other than sight, like hearing or touch. She reports that All of The following activities have successfully prevented awakenings fra visually faded dreams: listening to voices, music, or her own breathing; starting or keeping up a conversation; rubbing or opening her (dream) eyes; touching her dream hands or face; touching items like a pair of glasses, a hairbrush, or the edge of a mirror; feeling being touched; or flying.

All these actions share a common thread with the spinning technique mentioned on page 88. They are based on the idea of loading The perceptual system sol IT cannot Change its focus fra The dream World to The waking World. As long as you're actively engaging your senses in the dream, you're much less likely to slip back into reality.

From "Exploring The World of Lucid Dreaming"... nothing new there. If you're more actively involved in that dream world, it makes total sense that the dream would feel more vivid... and stable.

Yeah, but I mean during my waking hours. It’s almost like I’m constantly running quality control checks on the structural integrity of reality itself.

Charles Wood73 said:Yeah, but I mean during my waking hours. It’s almost like I’m constantly running quality control checks on the structural integrity of reality itself.

My bad, I totally misread you there. So you're talking about something similar to what those lucid dreaming forums call 'all day awareness', at least regarding the mindfulness aspect.

Drew Moore5 said:Look, unlike many other theosophists, Leadbiter actually had genuine insight into the astral plane, which was widely recognized. However, that doesn't apply to Devahan, which operates on an entirely different level.
The astral plane is essentially a realm of images that sit behind reality. Devahan, on the other hand, is a realm of sound behind reality. Even if his description of Devahan isn't perfect, I suspect he would agree with that distinction. Honestly, Devahan can't really be described systematically; you can only approach it through certain outlines or principles.

To recap: Leadbiter was an Anglican priest who joined the Theosophical Society, got kicked out, then got let back in, eventually becoming a bishop for the so-called Free Catholic Church in Australia. He was also initiated into Freemasonry during that time.

He faced accusations regarding teaching boys assigned to him about masturbation. Without passing judgment ourselves, we should look at the consensus of his contemporaries. A significant number of Theosophical Society members, including Annie Besant, pushed for his expulsion. And he was expelled. We won't dwell on the specific accusation from one boy regarding his sexuality, but the fact remains: Besant, who basically ran the Society, eventually changed her mind and allowed him back in.
Aleister Crowley wrote in 'The Equinox' that he was a "senile sexual maniac."

Then there's Krishnamurti, which is a whole different story. As the son of a Theosophical Society member (convenient, right?), he was intended to be the vessel for some sort of Messiah, though nobody was quite sure which one. After a few years, he walked away and headed to Australia. Once Krishnamurti matured, he tried to reject the labels people forced upon him, but it was a losing battle. He practically had no choice. Fortunately, Krishnamurti himself was a decent person, even if his personality was crushed under a massive burden.

Since your avatar is the Ukrainian flag, it suggests that your emotions are driving your logic. That’s not necessarily a catastrophe at your level—that's how most people operate. But it becomes dangerous if those emotions push you toward action (like changing an avatar, for instance), because emotions are the easiest things to manipulate.

In the book Charles W. Leadbeater by Peter Michael everything you think you know about his morality gets torn apart.
Crowley? You mean the guy who lost his mind?

Paul Rogers94 said:It’s pure concentrate 🤣

But it doesn't matter when everyone else is still stuck on outdated, romanticized Theosophical teachings—like attracts like, after all—clinging to those shallow New Age nonsense trends. That is, except for Motorist, our esteemed moderator, who actually grasps some fundamental principles (huge respect there, without being overly cynical—which is a rare, almost unique occurrence these days). And, heavens, Thor. It actually seems like they both operate on roughly the same level of understanding; it's just that Thor is "a bit" more radical while Motorist takes a more traditional approach. 🙂

An interesting observation, 🤣 indeed; except that I agree with the parts I disagree with, offering a secondary perspective that the aforementioned proud moderator hasn't quite grasped yet. Not yet... Mind you. But he copies and follows 🙂, which is pointless 😁 though admittedly clever. Yet, he truly lacks any sense of tact when he abruptly cuts off a spontaneous dialogue in his own secret. 😬
But all of this, it simply is, It is!

darkraven said:My bad, I totally misread you there. So you're talking about something similar to what those lucid dreaming forums call 'all day awareness', at least regarding the mindfulness aspect.

Yeah, that’s pretty much the closest comparison. Though, if I’m being honest, I tend to spice things up with all sorts of weird little fantasies just so I don't lose interest... for instance, while I'm standing at the kitchen sink doing the dishes, I'm not exactly just focusing on the sensation of the warm water hitting my hands; I'm usually busy trying to establish some kind of telepathic link with water elementals. Naturally, that leads to dreaming about massive floods and all that chaos. 🤣

George Wood2 said:An interesting observation, 🤣 indeed; except that I agree with the parts I disagree with, offering a secondary perspective that the aforementioned proud moderator hasn't quite grasped yet. Not yet... Mind you. But he copies and follows 🙂, which is pointless 😁 though admittedly clever. Yet, he truly lacks any sense of tact when he abruptly cuts off a spontaneous dialogue in his own secret. 😬
But all of this, it simply is, It is!

He’s clearly a bit insecure, so he tries too hard to project this sense of gravity that honestly ends up being hilarious. Still, you have to admit, the guy has talent.

George Wood2 said:An interesting observation, 🤣 indeed; except that I agree with the parts I disagree with, offering a secondary perspective that the aforementioned proud moderator hasn't quite grasped yet. Not yet... Mind you. But he copies and follows 🙂, which is pointless 😁 though admittedly clever. Yet, he truly lacks any sense of tact when he abruptly cuts off a spontaneous dialogue in his own secret. 😬
But all of this, it simply is, It is!

I wouldn't say they're just copying and following; there's actual consistency there. It's not like a blind chicken stumbling onto a grain of corn every once in a while—there is a logic to what is being said. They don't contradict themselves without reason, which wouldn't be possible without some foundation of true understanding. You can't fake that.

I don't know about quoting, but here are just a few things that meet resistance despite actually being expressions of deeper insight.

That's how the biker puts it; and there are plenty more wise and profound thoughts:

'stilling the mind allows for direct realization and insight'

'what requires the mind isn't spirituality, but rather exactly what needs to be cast aside'

'I've already written somewhere that I have discarded my beliefs several times—once my faith, and a few times the knowledge I identified with. And I would have no problem discarding my current knowledge again...'

🙏

Would you also be able to discard your current beliefs, knowledge, and practices just as easily if there was any truth to them?

And as you clearly know, reasoning is not the path to realization. Isn't that in itself a rare and respectable thing? Or perhaps the act of casting off current knowledge and beliefs is a serious leap toward realization.

Honestly, it gladdens me when someone truly possesses that kind of understanding. 🙂

That sort of genuine insight usually meets massive resistance from those who simply don't get it.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be put to the test.

The difference is that you, quite rightly, have no desire to engage in an utterly senseless debate with an irrational mind—so you come across like some enlightened autistic. Meanwhile, the biker has a neurotic syndrome or maybe just a "professional deformity"—perhaps some vestige of a certain mental control practice where one stays composed while debating every idiot, even though it's a suicide mission.

Long live the trash. 🤣

Free shrink analysis.

Paul Rogers94 said:I wouldn't say they're just copying and following; there's actual consistency there. It's not like a blind chicken stumbling onto a grain of corn every once in a while—there is a logic to what is being said. They don't contradict themselves without reason, which wouldn't be possible without some foundation of true understanding. You can't fake that.

I don't know about quoting, but here are just a few things that meet resistance despite actually being expressions of deeper insight.

That's how the biker puts it; and there are plenty more wise and profound thoughts:

'stilling the mind allows for direct realization and insight'

'what requires the mind isn't spirituality, but rather exactly what needs to be cast aside'

'I've already written somewhere that I have discarded my beliefs several times—once my faith, and a few times the knowledge I identified with. And I would have no problem discarding my current knowledge again...'

🙏

Would you also be able to discard your current beliefs, knowledge, and practices just as easily if there was any truth to them?

And as you clearly know, reasoning is not the path to realization. Isn't that in itself a rare and respectable thing? Or perhaps the act of casting off current knowledge and beliefs is a serious leap toward realization.

Honestly, it gladdens me when someone truly possesses that kind of understanding. 🙂

That sort of genuine insight usually meets massive resistance from those who simply don't get it.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be put to the test.

The difference is that you, quite rightly, have no desire to engage in an utterly senseless debate with an irrational mind—so you come across like some enlightened autistic. Meanwhile, the biker has a neurotic syndrome or maybe just a "professional deformity"—perhaps some vestige of a certain mental control practice where one stays composed while debating every idiot, even though it's a suicide mission.

Long live the trash. 🤣

Free shrink analysis.

Honestly, it’s pretty cool when someone actually has that kind of mindset.Yeah.Gurdjieff. 🙂

How are you supposed to wrap your head around that without even using your brain? 😬

Paul Rogers94 said:I wouldn't say they're just copying and following; there's actual consistency there. It's not like a blind chicken stumbling onto a grain of corn every once in a while—there is a logic to what is being said. They don't contradict themselves without reason, which wouldn't be possible without some foundation of true understanding. You can't fake that.

I don't know about quoting, but here are just a few things that meet resistance despite actually being expressions of deeper insight.

That's how the biker puts it; and there are plenty more wise and profound thoughts:

'stilling the mind allows for direct realization and insight'

'what requires the mind isn't spirituality, but rather exactly what needs to be cast aside'

'I've already written somewhere that I have discarded my beliefs several times—once my faith, and a few times the knowledge I identified with. And I would have no problem discarding my current knowledge again...'

🙏

Would you also be able to discard your current beliefs, knowledge, and practices just as easily if there was any truth to them?

And as you clearly know, reasoning is not the path to realization. Isn't that in itself a rare and respectable thing? Or perhaps the act of casting off current knowledge and beliefs is a serious leap toward realization.

Honestly, it gladdens me when someone truly possesses that kind of understanding. 🙂

That sort of genuine insight usually meets massive resistance from those who simply don't get it.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be put to the test.

The difference is that you, quite rightly, have no desire to engage in an utterly senseless debate with an irrational mind—so you come across like some enlightened autistic. Meanwhile, the biker has a neurotic syndrome or maybe just a "professional deformity"—perhaps some vestige of a certain mental control practice where one stays composed while debating every idiot, even though it's a suicide mission.

Long live the trash. 🤣

Free shrink analysis.

Cheers. There’s a passage in the Gospel... let me paraphrase because I can't be bothered to go hunting for the exact wording... you cast that certain Devil out of a house (or a person), you clean up all the mess he left behind... and then that Devil returns to a tidy, organized space, settles in, and tells you, "Alright, big shot, try kicking me out now."

Of course, we aren't talking about exorcisms or anything like that. It's more that once you discard the contents of the mind—the knowledge, the beliefs, the structures, the ego, the trivial nonsense—you achieve that peace, that insight, that realization... well, then you might get a day or two of enjoying that 'emptiness' before the trash starts piling up again. It settles back in, becomes stronger, more structured, more organized. And then it happens again. And again. And again. It's a bit like breeding antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

So, when someone goes through this process multiple times—which is evident from the fact that they can speak about it in their own words (which, by the way, are much clearer and more transparent than mine)—they need something a little more potent to shock them and kick them out of the structure. If the mold won't do it, the trolls will; that's just how nature works.

Carol Ramos2 said:

Honestly, it’s pretty cool when someone actually has that kind of mindset.Yeah.Gurdjieff. 🙂

How are you supposed to wrap your head around that without even using your brain? 😬

intuitively

Charles Wood73 said:Cheers. There’s a passage in the Gospel... let me paraphrase because I can't be bothered to go hunting for the exact wording... you cast that certain Devil out of a house (or a person), you clean up all the mess he left behind... and then that Devil returns to a tidy, organized space, settles in, and tells you, "Alright, big shot, try kicking me out now."

Of course, we aren't talking about exorcisms or anything like that. It's more that once you discard the contents of the mind—the knowledge, the beliefs, the structures, the ego, the trivial nonsense—you achieve that peace, that insight, that realization... well, then you might get a day or two of enjoying that 'emptiness' before the trash starts piling up again. It settles back in, becomes stronger, more structured, more organized. And then it happens again. And again. And again. It's a bit like breeding antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

So, when someone goes through this process multiple times—which is evident from the fact that they can speak about it in their own words (which, by the way, are much clearer and more transparent than mine)—they need something a little more potent to shock them and kick them out of the structure. If the mold won't do it, the trolls will; that's just how nature works.

Look, us non-religious types don't bother cleaning—we hire a maid while we deal with much more important things. Besides, the Devil and I are on friendly terms—more than that, actually. He has his place and his sanctuary in my heart; he works for me, and he lives in a doghouse where he belongs—that Devil is ME.

Charles Wood73 said:He’s clearly a bit insecure, so he tries too hard to project this sense of gravity that honestly ends up being hilarious. Still, you have to admit, the guy has talent.

Oh, absolutely. :spiritual_vibe: Total nonsense. 🤣
He's so obsessed with maintaining this "spiritual guru" persona that he refuses to challenge his own narrow little version of 'gnosis.' He just keeps cutting everything short to protect his ego... and in doing so, he loses all authenticity. Absolute amateurs.

Charles Wood73 said:Cheers. There’s a passage in the Gospel... let me paraphrase because I can't be bothered to go hunting for the exact wording... you cast that certain Devil out of a house (or a person), you clean up all the mess he left behind... and then that Devil returns to a tidy, organized space, settles in, and tells you, "Alright, big shot, try kicking me out now."

Of course, we aren't talking about exorcisms or anything like that. It's more that once you discard the contents of the mind—the knowledge, the beliefs, the structures, the ego, the trivial nonsense—you achieve that peace, that insight, that realization... well, then you might get a day or two of enjoying that 'emptiness' before the trash starts piling up again. It settles back in, becomes stronger, more structured, more organized. And then it happens again. And again. And again. It's a bit like breeding antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

So, when someone goes through this process multiple times—which is evident from the fact that they can speak about it in their own words (which, by the way, are much clearer and more transparent than mine)—they need something a little more potent to shock them and kick them out of the structure. If the mold won't do it, the trolls will; that's just how nature works.

when you discard the one doing the discarding, nothing ever returns to anyone again.

Paul Rogers94 said:I wouldn't say they're just copying and following; there's actual consistency there. It's not like a blind chicken stumbling onto a grain of corn every once in a while—there is a logic to what is being said. They don't contradict themselves without reason, which wouldn't be possible without some foundation of true understanding. You can't fake that.

I don't know about quoting, but here are just a few things that meet resistance despite actually being expressions of deeper insight.

That's how the biker puts it; and there are plenty more wise and profound thoughts:

'stilling the mind allows for direct realization and insight'

'what requires the mind isn't spirituality, but rather exactly what needs to be cast aside'

'I've already written somewhere that I have discarded my beliefs several times—once my faith, and a few times the knowledge I identified with. And I would have no problem discarding my current knowledge again...'

🙏

Would you also be able to discard your current beliefs, knowledge, and practices just as easily if there was any truth to them?

And as you clearly know, reasoning is not the path to realization. Isn't that in itself a rare and respectable thing? Or perhaps the act of casting off current knowledge and beliefs is a serious leap toward realization.

Honestly, it gladdens me when someone truly possesses that kind of understanding. 🙂

That sort of genuine insight usually meets massive resistance from those who simply don't get it.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be put to the test.

The difference is that you, quite rightly, have no desire to engage in an utterly senseless debate with an irrational mind—so you come across like some enlightened autistic. Meanwhile, the biker has a neurotic syndrome or maybe just a "professional deformity"—perhaps some vestige of a certain mental control practice where one stays composed while debating every idiot, even though it's a suicide mission.

Long live the trash. 🤣

Free shrink analysis.

It is. 👍 Losing all your knowledge is beautiful. At least, initially.

Prometheus observed this correctly.

It doesn't matter what others think of you.

George Wood2 said:Oh, absolutely. :spiritual_vibe: Total nonsense. 🤣
He's so obsessed with maintaining this "spiritual guru" persona that he refuses to challenge his own narrow little version of 'gnosis.' He just keeps cutting everything short to protect his ego... and in doing so, he loses all authenticity. Absolute amateurs.

Sometimes you really do sound like a little devious devil 🙂

Paul Rogers94 said:Look, us non-religious types don't bother cleaning—we hire a maid while we deal with much more important things. Besides, the Devil and I are on friendly terms—more than that, actually. He has his place and his sanctuary in my heart; he works for me, and he lives in a doghouse where he belongs—that Devil is ME.

There’s something about this little miniature that immediately brings Gurdjieff to mind. 😁

Charles Wood73 said:Cheers. There’s a passage in the Gospel... let me paraphrase because I can't be bothered to go hunting for the exact wording... you cast that certain Devil out of a house (or a person), you clean up all the mess he left behind... and then that Devil returns to a tidy, organized space, settles in, and tells you, "Alright, big shot, try kicking me out now."

Of course, we aren't talking about exorcisms or anything like that. It's more that once you discard the contents of the mind—the knowledge, the beliefs, the structures, the ego, the trivial nonsense—you achieve that peace, that insight, that realization... well, then you might get a day or two of enjoying that 'emptiness' before the trash starts piling up again. It settles back in, becomes stronger, more structured, more organized. And then it happens again. And again. And again. It's a bit like breeding antibiotic-resistant bacteria.

So, when someone goes through this process multiple times—which is evident from the fact that they can speak about it in their own words (which, by the way, are much clearer and more transparent than mine)—they need something a little more potent to shock them and kick them out of the structure. If the mold won't do it, the trolls will; that's just how nature works.

If you're going through that cycle over and over, it just means you haven't actually completed it.

And that person swinging back and forth between the internal and external—between the void and the chaos—has also been seen...

That "void" you think you reach by "clearing your mind" is just another part of the mind itself, and it needs clearing too...
So then you see if there’s anything left worth returning to.

Otherwise, your words are very transparent, clear, and beautiful.