When I'm sleeping...

Ptahotep said:You aren't this, and you aren't that either.

👍 😁

Regarding your hazy notions about continuity:
continuity isn't synonymous with time, because you can't actually observe continuity itself.

Continuity implies duration, and duration requires time...

Or are you suggesting that continuity somehow exists in a timeless void??

A total absence of thought is what constitutes timelessness...

In a timeless state, there is no distinction between individuals or single entities. That very division—that entire sense of being an individual—is nothing more than a thought.

Jesse White3 said:Hey, placidharbor7, I think you might be overdoing it just a little bit! Between all that eating, drinking, and singing, aren't you wearing yourself out?

I honestly don't even have the energy to engage with your constant hair-splitting and mental gymnastics anymore. Seriously, where is the substance? This isn't wisdom, it’s not spirituality, and it certainly isn't philosophy. You all have just neatly tucked yourselves into the very labels you claim to transcend—trapped within religion, drifting among spirits. In fact, you’re behaving exactly like ghosts, haunting spheres of influence where you simply don't belong! You’re just as indecisive as a phantom, trying desperately to be everything you are and everything you aren't all at once. How can you possibly try to teach others something that you haven't even begun to grasp yourselves?

You’ve really got to learn how to dodge placidharbor7, Truth Seeker! Honestly, if you don't stay one step ahead, you're going to get caught in his orbit!
I mean, think about it—if you happen to know even one thing that placidharbor7 doesn't, aren't you basically in a position to start teaching your own "Master"?
That is exactly how a jealous truth seeker should conduct themselves!

Jesse White3 said:Hey, since you're already hanging out here, why not grab a little extra while you're at it? Consider this my way of making sure you don't head home empty-handed! As for that hazy little theory of yours regarding continuity:
Think about it this carefully: continuity isn't actually a measurement of time. I mean, really, can you even point to it? You can't observe continuity itself, right? It’s just not something that sits there waiting to be seen! Instead, continuity is the very lens we use to make sense of everything else. It's the framework that allows us to perceive the rest of existence!

When it comes to that whole idea of "continuity," isn't the OBSERVER actually much closer to you—and much older—than anything else, truth seeker?
Is the OBSERVER actually "aware" of that sense of continuity, or are they just drifting through it? Is there any real consciousness behind the curtain, or is it all just a seamless flow without anyone truly watching the clock?
If that’s actually the case, then that whole idea of "continuity" you're talking about is nothing more than an illusion—it's all just in your head! (And honestly, if you look back at what placidharbor7 wrote earlier, it's pretty clear where this is going.)
If that isn’t the case, then where on earth did you pull this whole idea of "continuity" from? Seriously, is it just something you made up out of thin air?
So, where exactly did you come from?

Jesse White3 said:First things first—you really have to wrap your head around what an "idea" actually is. If you don't, we’re just going to end up in this endless loop of arguing, and honestly, I just don't have the energy for that! Think about it: without thought, there is no time. It’s as simple as that. Time itself is essentially a construct of thought, and because our thoughts are constantly being interrupted and fragmented, time feels fractured too. Isn't that wild?

So, I’ve been wondering lately—who exactly is observing our thoughts, truth seeker?
Wait, are you seriously telling me that subject of yours is just some figment of your imagination? Is he even real?!

Who even cares if someone is watching them? Honestly, it’s just a thought at this point—besides, placidharbor7 already broke it all down for us!
Because those thoughts—just like you were saying earlier—are actually perceived within the flow of time!
Is it just me, or does it feel like one thought just chases another in an endless loop? It’s like my mind is running a marathon where the finish line keeps moving! Have you ever noticed how one single idea starts racing after another, circling around without ever actually landing anywhere? It’s honestly kind of wild when you stop to think about it!

A true master doesn't live in a state of illusion!
There isn't even a spark of life within that consciousness!
He doesn't even realize that he's actually alive!
Do you have anything else to add, truth seeker?

Jesse White3 said:Think about it this way: what isn't broken is continuity. But here’s the kicker—you can’t actually "see" it, right? It feels like a bit of a paradox! We only ever notice a break because we have something to measure it against. We recognize a disruption only because we have that sense of flow, that steady constancy, and that underlying continuity to compare it to. Isn't it wild how we need the very thing we're missing just to realize it's gone?

Here we go again! It’s the big one, the ultimate question, and I’m asking it once more:
So, tell me, Truth Seeker—is that Observer of yours actually self-aware? I mean, does it truly realize it’s the one watching all those little moments of "discontinuity" in your life?

If that’s true, then isn't the whole thing just "interrupted" by default? I mean, think about it—if consciousness itself is capable of being aware of its own state, then doesn't that imply the awareness itself is also subject to being "interrupted"? It’s such a wild loop to wrap your head around!
Because back then, everything was just so... fragmented! It was constantly being interrupted, you know? There was absolutely no way to stay focused!
Is it just me, or is "aligned consciousness" actually nothing more than a student mindset? Think about it—if you aren't fully present and tuned in, aren't you basically just sitting in a classroom waiting to be told what to do?

Jesse White3 said:When you dive into philosophy, the concept of continuity essentially boils down to one thing: unbroken existence. Isn't that a wild thought? It’s the idea that there isn't a single gap in the chain of being. Think about it—time and thought actually rely on this sense of continuity to function. It’s the very glue that holds everything together, because that continuous flow is what actually forms your identity! Without that seamless thread connecting who you were a second ago to who you are right now, would "you" even exist? It’s all connected!

So, what is placidharbor7 hearing here?
That "identity" is just the byproduct of "continuity"—that is, that "I AM" which was forged from the LIES OF AN UNREAL SUBJECT (just check placidharbor7's previous post).
What kind of nonsense is this, truth seeker?

Jesse White3 said:The individual is continuity, because continuity is something that is INDIVISIBLE. This indivisibility is the subject of EVERY action or occurrence. That is why I am telling you that you first need to understand what an idea actually is, because I am using that understanding to speak.

How can an "individual" possibly be "continuity," truth seeker?
An "individual" is, by its very definition, DIVISIBLE.
"Continuity" is, by its very nature, ALL-ENCOMPASSING.
Are you also one of those people who believes in the "ghosts" you keep mentioning?

Jesse White3 said:Anyway, do you really grasp that your identity is ALWAYS unknown?

WHO within you is unaware, truth seeker?
Where on earth does this SCHIZOPHRENIA end?

Jesse White3 said:You, the SUBJECT, are not who you are and who you are not. That’s just gibberish.
You are neither this nor that. Truly being what you are is something VERY solid, not something empty or shifting. You aren't an idea, so you couldn't possibly say anything about yourself, or imagine that you exist now and don't exist a moment later. Or imagine that you are everything and nothing at once.

Let’s talk about WHAT YOU ARE, truth seeker.
You’ve already asserted that it is something VERY SOLID.
Just as you claimed that CONSCIOUSNESS "is not substantial."
Feeding yourself these self-indulgent absurdities isn't going to help you.

Jesse White3 said:Thanks for the invitation to visit your school of enlightenment! I've already been there. Now please excuse me, because I simply cannot participate in your conversation—I have an organic aversion to teachers and masters. Students and master-teachers generally don't get along anyway; you should probably know that by now.

But if you really want to teach others, I invite you to do this instead. Learn this first, then try teaching anyone else:

http://home.primus.com.au/jljubo/index.htm

Happy "mastering"! [/B]

What kind of "mastering" is this, truth seeker? 👋

Honestly, nobody has given me a straight answer yet. Most people just drone on about this supposedly "incomprehensible" consciousness that we’re all products of, acting like we're all just actors in some play. So, who’s actually kidding themselves here? Why can't you just say, "I don't know what's happening to me"? Instead, everyone keeps pulling these theories out of thin air, and where does that even lead? Just blind faith and self-delusion. I mean, shouldn't an enlightened person be someone who sees things exactly as they are, rather than drifting into extremes and lying to themselves with some belief system? That's how I see it, anyway. Maybe I'm just overthinking things and getting myself tangled up in my own head, but from what I've gathered so far, that's just a path to nowhere. And that path always ends in a total disaster for me. Right now, a hundred different thoughts just hit me at once, I went overboard, and I ended up with nothing. Then everything I just said feels useless... But no, I'm not buying into those ideas; I'm sticking to my original thought and what it covers.

Isn't that kind of thinking exactly what separates a madman from a rational person? Is madness even allowed in philosophy?

Where does this line of reasoning go—jumping from one conclusion about the incomprehensible to another? Everything is beyond our level of awareness, so isn't it all just pure guesswork? I'd call it foolish... It all sounds pretty stupid to me. I don't know... Maybe I'm not worthy of saying this since I haven't read much and I'm new to philosophy, so I'll just ask: Isn't any philosophy that wanders away from the material world just shouting into the void?

I don't even know how to name it... The material world, our dimension, our perception of the world we've lived in since the day we were born...

Look, I’m just laying out my own take here, and honestly, I think it’s pretty much the right way to look at things. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'm mostly just trying to make sense of it all for myself. If I stick to my theory, I can probably shoot down any argument you guys throw at me to prove me wrong. Then again, who am I to tell anyone what’s right? At the end of the day, everything just boils down to the core beliefs we’ve picked up over the years. Perspectives shift, everyone sees things through a different lens, and there’s really no point in trying to convince someone else they're wrong when it’s all just a matter of personal conviction anyway. God, I’m such a know-it-all sometimes...

placidharbor7 says :

You’re out here claiming that "there’s no talk of substance, because the subject (Consciousness) isn't a substance."

Does that mean CONSCIOUSNESS IS SOMETHING ELSE entirely, whatever that may be?

If it isn't "substance," then what on earth is it?

But before placidharbor7 even bothers to explain, he’s probably just going to hit you with something like—

CONSCIOUSNESS DOESN'T EVEN EXIST, truth seeker. ]

That’s exactly it; CONSCIOUSNESS IS NOT A SUBSTANCE!
SUBSTANCE IS WHAT CONSCIOUSNESS IS!

When you fail to find yourself in the 'formal' world (which is just nothingness-information) and then can't find yourself in the 'non-formal' either (nothingness-consciousness),
you end up abandoning the first possible experiential encounter with your own self in that 'pure being-light' (the very first naming) where every sense of being vanishes, and from that same eternal now-moment, this whole cycle of talking-creating and re-manifesting just keeps spinning over and over again...

Jonathan Brown6 said:Look, I'm just laying out my own perspective here, and I’m doing it under the assumption that what I'm saying is perfectly reasonable and right. Honestly, though, I'm mostly just trying to make sense of things for myself. If I stick to my own theory, I can pretty much shut down any argument someone might throw at me to prove I'm wrong. But then again, who am I to lecture anyone on what's "correct"? At the end of the day, everything just boils down to those core life beliefs we pick up over the years. Opinions shift, everyone sees the world through a different lens, and there's really no point in trying to convince someone else they're wrong when it's all just a matter of individual belief anyway. God, I'm such a self-important jerk...

Truth would be a pathetic thing if you actually had to go out and perform some task just to prove it exists.
Don't let yourself get "confused"! I mean, what is there even to say? You think... well, you're living your truth, so even "when you aren't," you still are!

😉

placidharbor7 said:You really shouldn't try to dodge placidharbor7, truth seeker.
Because if you happen to possess even a shred of knowledge that placidharbor7 lacks, you’ll inevitably find yourself attempting to lecture your own "Master."
That is precisely how a jealous truth seeker ought to conduct themselves.

Regarding that whole concept of "continuity"—the Observer is actually closer to you, and far more ancient, my dear truth seeker.
Is the OBSERVER actually "aware" of that sense of continuity, or is it just an illusion?
If that is indeed the case, then this whole idea of "continuity" you’re clinging to is nothing more than an illusion—it's purely imaginary (if you recall what placidharbor7 mentioned in his previous post).
If that isn't the case, then I have to wonder if this supposed "continuity" of yours is nothing more than a figment of your imagination.
Where exactly are you from, anyway?

Who exactly is observing our thoughts, truth seeker?
Is that subject of yours merely an illusion?

Regardless of who might be observing them, even if it's just a passing thought, placidharbor7 has already laid it all out for you.
Because, as you’ve pointed out yourself, thoughts themselves are perceived within the framework of time.
It seems to me that one thought simply pursues another in an endless loop.

A true master doesn't live in a state of illusion.
It simply does not reside within consciousness.
He isn't even aware that he is alive.
Do you have anything else to add, truth seeker?

The ultimate question, once again, remains:
Is that Observer of yours actually aware of its own nature while it monitors your various states of "fragmentation," truth seeker?

If that holds true, then the concept itself must be inherently "interrupted." After all, if consciousness is defined by its own capacity for self-awareness, then that very act of awareness is also subject to being "interrupted."
Because it was "interrupted" back then, it’s finally "focused."
A focused consciousness is essentially nothing more than a student's consciousness.

What exactly is placidharbor7 hearing?
If we consider that "identity" is merely a byproduct of "continuity"—that is to say, a construct forged from the "I AM" of a false and unattainable subject (as placidharbor7 pointed out in an earlier post)—then everything changes.
What kind of sentimentality is this, truth seeker?

How can an "individual" truly represent "continuity," Truth Seeker?
The concept of the "individual" is, in its very essence, a state of being divided.
Continuity, in its purest essence, is nothing less than all-encompassing.
Do you also find yourself drifting into those "spirits" you mentioned?

Who remains unknown to you, truth seeker?
Where does this madness actually end, good heavens?

Let us engage in a discussion regarding the essence of what you truly are, truth seeker.
You previously maintained that this was something quite substantial—truly solid, if I recall correctly.
As you previously asserted, consciousness itself is "not substantial" in nature.
Self-indulgent nonsense isn't going to do you any favors.

But if you truly intend to take on the role of teacher for others, then I suppose I should extend a similar invitation to you for what comes next. It seems only fair that one masters these principles personally before attempting to guide anyone else through them.

http://home.primus.com.au/jljubo/index.htm

Happy tinkering!

What kind of masterclass are we talking about here, truth seeker? 👋 [/B]

I suppose I could pay a visit to your school, if that’s what you require, but I must ask one thing of you: please, don't go clicking on that link I sent. I say this with total sincerity—if you were to actually follow it, I fear you wouldn't have the slightest desire to speak with me again, at least not until you’ve had some time to properly wrap your head around your ideas regarding your "school."

Please, stop twisting my words; it’s a path that leads absolutely nowhere. I would truly appreciate it if you could sit down with the Law of Existence on that page I shared with you. If you could just take a moment to grasp the full scope of the picture and the solution it presents, perhaps then we could have a meaningful conversation. This is the Truth I have been trying to offer you, even if I've only managed to provide it in small fragments. For me, the Truth is found in the deep understanding of the Law of Existence. Do you truly understand it?
It would be far better if you truly grasped the law of existence. Simply knowing who you are and what you represent isn't quite enough to claim the title of a true master.
I once believed I understood the very things you claim to "perhaps" know—though, in hindsight, I suspect I had merely memorized theories from textbooks. I never had the audacity to call myself a master; frankly, that would have been absurd, as one's knowledge is rarely sufficient. It was only recently that I truly grasped the concept, thanks to the insights shared by my mentor, who finally laid out the law of existence on paper. It is only when you truly internalize that law that you could even consider calling yourself a master, if that is a title you still desire to hold.

Furthermore, if there remains anything you fail to grasp—or if you find yourself struggling with my supposed "lack of knowledge"—please, do feel free to reach out to me. Though, I must admit, I am somewhat perplexed as to why an expert of your caliber would be troubled by my ignorance. It is quite a significant gap, isn't it? One so vast that even someone of your standing had to transition from your specialized field to the philosophy department at a major university like Harvard, making quite the sacrifice just as your original program began to lose its footing. Is it possible, perhaps, that your students are starting to lose faith in your teachings? Or heavens, no—I suppose your pupils are also "enlightened." So much so, in fact, that even the philosophy faculty has begun taking a sudden interest in them.

And ultimately, if you truly aspire to be some sort of "guru," I would suggest exercising a bit more patience; perhaps wait for the flock to find their way to you rather than constantly chasing after them. Otherwise, your little hobby won't last very long, as you'll likely end up losing your temper with everyone you encounter.

Best regards.

klimakos said:It would only be the truth if he actually had to do something about it.
Don't let them get in your head. I mean, what can you even say? You just assume... you're right, even when you're probably wrong!

😉

Man. Why didn't anyone tell me this sooner? Seriously, you have no idea how much easier you just made my life. I think I actually knew this the whole time, I just couldn't quite wrap my brain around what you were saying. Thanks, 👍 🙂

Ptahotep said:What kind of "mastery" is this, Seeker of Truth? 👋

Look, feel free to visit my school whenever you like, but please, just do me a favor and check out that link I sent you first. If you actually did, you wouldn't even feel the urge to reach back out to me—at least not until you’ve truly wrapped your head around your own "school" of thought.

Stop twisting my words; it’s a dead end. Just read the law of existence on that page I shared, get the full picture and the solution it presents, and then come talk to me. That is the Truth I was offering you, even if I only gave it to you in pieces. For me, Truth is simply understanding the law of existence. Do you actually understand it?
It would be much better if you understood the very law by which you exist, because merely knowing who or what you are isn't nearly enough to call yourself a "master."
I once knew what you "might" know, or what you've just memorized from textbooks, yet I never called myself a master. Honestly, that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it? It’s just not enough. I only recently grasped it all, thanks to Lubin, who finally put the law of existence down on paper. Only when you grasp the law of existence can you truly call yourself a "master"—if that's even something you want to do.

Then, if there's still something you don't get, or if you have an issue with "my" supposed ignorance, go ahead and reach out. Though, I honestly can't wrap my head around why a Master like you would struggle with such massive ignorance—so much so that you had to leave your own school to join the philosophy department at a major university, making more sacrifices just because your school is falling apart?! Are your students starting to lose faith in your sermons? Oh, heavens no, your students are just as "enlightened!" So much so, in fact, that they've started getting interested in joining the philosophy department themselves.

And finally, if you really want to play the "guru," try having a little patience. Wait for the sheep to come to you instead of chasing them down. Otherwise, this whole "mastering" thing won't last long, because you'll end up getting defensive with every single person you meet.

Regards. [/B]

placidharbor7 refers to every single source, so he’ll certainly look into Lubin's work too, Seeker of Truth.
He'll share his MASTERFUL experience regarding this matter at his own school.
Best regards to you as well.

relativity said:Ugh, seriously?! Why on earth didn't anyone bother telling me this sooner?!?! You have absolutely no idea how much easier you just made my life... I mean, deep down I think I knew it all along, but I just couldn't quite wrap my head around what you just laid out there. Seriously, thanks 👍 🙂

I'm glad to hear it!
And another thing;
maybe some "expert" or guru out there can help you shake off a few illusions here and there, but you really need to realize one thing;
no matter who you go to or where you look, nobody can take away from you, nor can they give you, what you already are!

😉

Relativity suggests:
Where does consciousness go—mine, or someone else's?

It doesn't just vanish; it simply shifts away from our waking state. It’s stripped of that constant oversight we maintain while we're wide awake.

I keep trying to grasp the concept of what actually happens when we drift off; what becomes of our conscious existence... and I think someone in this thread already mentioned how that existence exists outside of time and space, which is an explanation I really dig.

Personally, I imagine us as being made of time itself—just a brief disturbance in its dream. To channel a bit of > here: my space *is* time. Just before I reach out to grab my own theory, I think it should look something like this: when I sleep, I exist in a timeless state. My space, in those moments, is timelessness. (Honestly, I can't decide if I should chase that thought or just let it sit.)

Consciousness is basically playing with itself, and there isn't anyone around to call the shots... Just think about it; you're simultaneously the audience, the actors on screen, the film itself, and the projector... plus, you've got an endless supply of popcorn! 🙂

relativity dictates:
Look, I’m laying out my perspective here under the guise that it’s the objective, correct way to see things. But honestly? It's just me trying to make sense of the chaos in my own head. Sure, with enough conviction, I could probably use this theory to dismantle any argument you throw at me to prove me wrong. But who am I to lecture anyone on what constitutes "truth"? At the end of the day, everything boils down to those deeply ingrained life convictions we pick up over decades. Perspectives shift. Everyone views the same reality through a different lens. There is zero point in trying to force someone else to accept your version of accuracy when everything is merely a construct of human belief. God, I sound like some pretentious pseudo-intellectual...

The Absolute (Truth) is the one doing the thinking; so how can any single thought possibly explain the Absolute itself?😁

Karen Sanchez19 said:It would be a pathetic sort of truth if it actually required him to lift a finger.
Don't let them "confuse" you! Honestly, what is there to say? You convince yourself you're right, and suddenly—poof—you're right even when you aren't!

😉

👍

Heh... feeding us those false hopes again, I see.😂😂🙂

relativity suggests:
Good grief. Why on earth did nobody mention this to me sooner? You have no idea how much easier you've just made my life. Honestly, I think I knew it all along deep down, but I just couldn't quite connect the dots until you laid it out like that. My thanks to 👍 🙂

Heh. And how many times did I actually drag you to class?😁

As Parsifal would say: You can't find what you're looking for if you aren't actually seeking the truth.😁

Karen Sanchez19 said:Glad to hear it!
And one more thing;
maybe a consultant or some "expert" can help you dismantle a few illusions here and there, but you need to understand this reality:
no matter who you hire or where you look, nobody can take away—nor can they bestow—what you already are!

😉

👍

🙂

viviana said:It doesn't just vanish. It simply shifts from its waking state. It’s stripped of that constant supervision we exert over ourselves while we're awake.

I'm trying to grasp the blueprint of what actually happens when we sleep; what becomes of our conscious existence... and I think someone on this thread already mentioned how that existence exists outside of time and space. Personally? I find that explanation quite compelling.

The way I see it, we *are* time itself. We are merely a momentary disturbance in its dreaming. To quote the great Goethe: my space is time. In that split second before I reach out to grab my own mental blueprint, I feel it should look something like this: when I sleep, I exist in a timeless void. My space—in those moments—is timelessness. (I can't decide whether to seize that thought or let it drift.)

Consciousness playing games with itself, with absolutely no one at the helm to keep order... Just imagine: being the audience, the actors on the screen, the film itself, the projector, and the cinema... plus an endless supply of popcorn! 🙂

👍 😁

grizli said:👍

hehe... there you go again, selling people false hope 😂😂🙂

Seriously, don't start messing with me right now. Why the sudden attitude? I was actually having a decent time here. 🙂

Man, it’s absolute truth. If I have to jump through hoops just to find what I'm looking for, then what's even the point of all this overthinking? I mean, seriously. If anyone actually tracks down exactly what I'm after, just let me know. There's a prize on the line—a custom knife set.

relative truth suggests:
Give me a break. Don't start with the attitude now. Why such a visceral reaction? I was actually having a decent time here. 🙂

That’s just my way of poking fun at Klimakos: It’s completely off-topic 😉 😁