Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

I guess there are plenty of spots for outings like that in Tehran; it seems a bit silly to think a massive city of over 10 million people in a developed nation is some backwater. Even if that were true, it doesn't justify saying someone's death matters more because of their lifestyle. Maybe bluebison47 is actually more similar to an Iranian or an Iraqi in terms of socio-economic factors than they realize, rather than being closer to a Frenchman or a Swiss person. It’s easy to get carried away by appearances. Ultimately, I think it's just the media that dictates whose deaths are prioritized. Since we Americans sit somewhere in the middle of everything, maybe we can just move past this whole debate about restaurants and sports matches.

Arabs eat crap if they aren't already doing it like Chinese people do, but the fact that they're crazy in their own special way? That’s a whole different conversation entirely. 😁

You talk about the Middle East as if it were just one small neighborhood. It’s like making sweeping statements saying Americans are all one way, or that you can do this but not that in the US. That’s just pure generalization and nonsense. To give any real examples, you need to spend more time in a specific country, town, or city before forming a sensible opinion... Just like in America, it's the same in the Middle East.

Jessica Gonzalez said:I guess there are plenty of spots for outings like that in Tehran; it seems a bit silly to think a massive city of over 10 million people in a developed nation is some backwater. Even if that were true, it doesn't justify saying someone's death matters more because of their lifestyle. Maybe bluebison47 is actually more similar to an Iranian or an Iraqi in terms of socio-economic factors than they realize, rather than being closer to a Frenchman or a Swiss person. It’s easy to get carried away by appearances. Ultimately, I think it's just the media that dictates whose deaths are prioritized. Since we Americans sit somewhere in the middle of everything, maybe we can just move past this whole debate about restaurants and sports matches.

I mean, if we're being real, the average Kuwaiti is economically much more aligned with someone from Singapore or Canada, so they’ll probably find way more common ground with a Palestinian.

It shouldn't be a shock that we feel a closer connection to the French, considering it's their movies, sports, and music we're all obsessed with, and it's where we head for our big graduation trips.

Trying to justify things or hunt for hypocrisy in certain situations just feels incredibly stupid.

ironpanther5 said:I mean, if we're being real, the average Kuwaiti is economically much more aligned with someone from Singapore or Canada, so they’ll probably find way more common ground with a Palestinian.

It shouldn't be a shock that we feel a closer connection to the French, considering it's their movies, sports, and music we're all obsessed with, and it's where we head for our big graduation trips.

Trying to justify things or hunt for hypocrisy in certain situations just feels incredibly stupid.

Even if you look at those five specific points, there is absolutely no parallel universe where we are closer to Iranians than we are to the French. To be honest, I’m not even sure what he was trying to get at, because we are worlds apart compared to our connection with France. People often tend to overreach with these analogies and then stubbornly try to defend a flawed premise.😁

While Tehran is massive enough to accommodate all sorts of things, people don't call Beirut the "Little Paris" without reason, and if any comparison involving the Middle East is going to work, it would be with the Lebanese. Generally speaking, wherever there has been a significant Shia presence, you tend to see a bit more progressive thought.😁..

The Gulf states are mostly lagging behind when it comes to progressive values.

Jessica Gonzalez said:I guess there are plenty of spots for outings like that in Tehran; it seems a bit silly to think a massive city of over 10 million people in a developed nation is some backwater. Even if that were true, it doesn't justify saying someone's death matters more because of their lifestyle. Maybe bluebison47 is actually more similar to an Iranian or an Iraqi in terms of socio-economic factors than they realize, rather than being closer to a Frenchman or a Swiss person. It’s easy to get carried away by appearances. Ultimately, I think it's just the media that dictates whose deaths are prioritized. Since we Americans sit somewhere in the middle of everything, maybe we can just move past this whole debate about restaurants and sports matches.

You actually been to Tehran? My sister spent a month in Iran and told me like 80% of the people there absolutely loathe the Ayatollahs and the religious regime, but they aren't allowed to breathe wrong. Also, their hospitality culture isn't anything like ours; everyone will take you into their home, it's just how it works there.

wiredfalcon2 said:You actually been to Tehran? My sister spent a month in Iran and told me like 80% of the people there absolutely loathe the Ayatollahs and the religious regime, but they aren't allowed to breathe wrong. Also, their hospitality culture isn't anything like ours; everyone will take you into their home, it's just how it works there.

It’s honestly depressing thinking about how much better life was in a lot of those countries 30 or 40 years ago when it came to freedom, rights, and culture—especially for women.

Look, most people in those countries—just like here in the States—want and love the exact same things. You can't really judge an entire nation based on its government's policies, especially in dictatorships. Every Iranian I've ever met just wants to grab a drink, enjoy life, and find love; and women there care about fashion and makeup just as much as women in the West. It's the same for Egyptians, Turks, Algerians, and so on. At the end of the day, a person is a person, and most people across the globe are living essentially the same lives. I guess the real issue in many Muslim-majority countries is that having a bit of freedom is often something only the wealthy can afford, even though everyone wants it. So, maybe we could toss those silly arguments about not being able to relate to others. The reason some lives seem more valuable to global TV audiences than others is purely down to media and politics. In reality, every life has equal value. Next time a bomb goes off in Baghdad and kills 100 people, maybe consider why it’s treated as a side story, whereas if something similar happened in Vienna, it would be non-stop coverage. Those 100 people have families, hobbies, friends, jobs, and passions. They just happen to be unlucky enough that there aren't 20 news stations and a fleet of helicopters filming them to broadcast to the world.

And regarding that helicopter tragedy, nine people died, yet the media only talks about two of them. Sure, he was a celebrity, but mourning him to this extreme doesn't seem quite right to me. It all feels like part of a show—a performance staged for the public that turns him into a lifeless caricature. I mean, how many of you actually knew him? To us, he's just a collection of pixels on a screen. As absurd as it sounds, for basketball fans, he hasn't truly "died" because his games can be watched forever. What he represented to a fan stays exactly the same. Even if you somehow missed the news of his passing, how would your daily life actually change? He died for his family, his friends, and his inner circle; they are the ones facing the actual loss. Most of us have experienced a loss like that, or eventually will. For them, Kobe Bryant was a man with real virtues and flaws. For the rest of the world, he was an MVP, a player with stats, a caricature in the professional sports world. And honestly, you can't even breathe without seeing tweets and polite platitudes from every random person who feels the need to comment. Our local news will probably find someone like Damjan Rudež to say the exact same thing 500 other people already said. In three days, it'll all be old news... I suppose "the celebrity exploitation of death" is the best way to describe it.

Jessica Gonzalez said:Look, most people in those countries—just like here in the States—want and love the exact same things. You can't really judge an entire nation based on its government's policies, especially in dictatorships. Every Iranian I've ever met just wants to grab a drink, enjoy life, and find love; and women there care about fashion and makeup just as much as women in the West. It's the same for Egyptians, Turks, Algerians, and so on. At the end of the day, a person is a person, and most people across the globe are living essentially the same lives. I guess the real issue in many Muslim-majority countries is that having a bit of freedom is often something only the wealthy can afford, even though everyone wants it. So, maybe we could toss those silly arguments about not being able to relate to others. The reason some lives seem more valuable to global TV audiences than others is purely down to media and politics. In reality, every life has equal value. Next time a bomb goes off in Baghdad and kills 100 people, maybe consider why it’s treated as a side story, whereas if something similar happened in Vienna, it would be non-stop coverage. Those 100 people have families, hobbies, friends, jobs, and passions. They just happen to be unlucky enough that there aren't 20 news stations and a fleet of helicopters filming them to broadcast to the world.

And regarding that helicopter tragedy, nine people died, yet the media only talks about two of them. Sure, he was a celebrity, but mourning him to this extreme doesn't seem quite right to me. It all feels like part of a show—a performance staged for the public that turns him into a lifeless caricature. I mean, how many of you actually knew him? To us, he's just a collection of pixels on a screen. As absurd as it sounds, for basketball fans, he hasn't truly "died" because his games can be watched forever. What he represented to a fan stays exactly the same. Even if you somehow missed the news of his passing, how would your daily life actually change? He died for his family, his friends, and his inner circle; they are the ones facing the actual loss. Most of us have experienced a loss like that, or eventually will. For them, Kobe Bryant was a man with real virtues and flaws. For the rest of the world, he was an MVP, a player with stats, a caricature in the professional sports world. And honestly, you can't even breathe without seeing tweets and polite platitudes from every random person who feels the need to comment. Our local news will probably find someone like Damjan Rudež to say the exact same thing 500 other people already said. In three days, it'll all be old news... I suppose "the celebrity exploitation of death" is the best way to describe it.

I don't give a damn about Kobe personally, but the guy was one of the greatest hoopers of all time; he left a mark on a global scale. But yeah, people watched him for 20 years on TV or live, so I agree about those hashtags—it’s all just narcissistic posturing.

I get that he was a global icon in professional sports. But honestly, how many people actually knew him personally, or how much did his passing truly impact their individual lives? If you didn't hear about it, does it really change anything for you? You can still go on YouTube and watch him play basketball 24/7 for the rest of your life. The athlete version of Kobe Bryant is a brand, and as a brand, he isn't gone. As a person, nobody really knew him—especially not anyone on a forum like this. I see people debating his legal troubles here, but that's exactly my point. People are either defending or attacking someone they don't actually know; they haven't spent a single second with him. All they know is the media persona of a pro athlete. It’s a similar situation with Michael Jackson, though that's been elevated to an entirely different level. Fans end up defending a man they know nothing about privately. Every celebrity, politician, or public figure is just a human being made of flesh and blood, dealing with the same joys and struggles as the rest of us. I see folks on this thread arguing about whether he should have even been in that helicopter, as if our opinions carry any weight at all. I guess just writing RIP Kobe Bryant is enough.

Jessica Gonzalez, honestly, looking at your last reply, I still can't tell if you actually set foot in Tehran or what.

wiredfalcon2 said:Jessica Gonzalez, honestly, looking at your last reply, I still can't tell if you actually set foot in Tehran or what.

I was planning on going, but things fell through. I know a few people from Tehran, though.

Honestly, human reactions are perfectly logical, so I don't really get why everyone is making such a huge deal out of this, unless we're talking about it from some deep philosophical angle.

Anyone who jumped on the NBA bandwagon during that massive basketball boom from the nineties through the peak of the early 2000s is somehow tied to Kobe. You have entire generations born between the early eighties and late nineties who live for basketball, and they all grew up watching Kobe. It’s almost like we wouldn't be seeing these exact same scenes right now if Ronaldinho were the one passing away.

That idea that a hundred people dying in Baghdad or Vienna means the same thing is technically true—they all had families, lived lives, and were just like us—but it isn't weird at all that people react differently.
And it's not because people are hypocritical pieces of shit; it's just that it would be a much bigger shock if something like that actually happened in Vienna.

In Baghdad, bombings or mass casualties have basically become part of the daily grind, whereas in Vienna, the last time a hundred people died at once was during an Ottoman siege city.

Besides, here in our neck of the woods, we're still culturally tied to places like Vienna; it's close, we travel there, and our late grandmothers used to cook the exact same specialties they eat over there.

Theoretically, you've got a point, but humans just aren't rational creatures.

Plus, do you seriously think the average person has the stomach to process everyone else's suffering across the globe? Should a random social media profile really look like the obituary section of a daily newspaper?

Of course, the situation with those elderly folks in the nursing home 50 miles shook me way more than Kobe did, and probably most people too. But people don't know anything about the elderly; they know everything about Kobe. They can post about his 81-point game or whatever, but when it comes to the elderly, all they can do is write some depressing stuff about how social services or oversight allows helpless people to be left alone overnight to freeze or burn, and then it just blows over.

We're all just fed up with the constant gloom in this country. The average person can't exactly be a Goethe, soaking up all the world's misery; if they tried, they'd end up puking.

It drives us all crazy when individuals use every single tragedy as a chance for virtue signaling to show how righteous they are. But honestly, those playing moral police aren't much better, attacking people in the comments of a tragedy by saying, "There was an earthquake in Iran and 20 people died, but now everyone's making a fuss about 7 Frenchmen, blah blah blah."

How twisted are those people? They're just tactless sociopaths.

Naturally, this doesn't apply to you; this is actually a decent discussion.

Jessica Gonzalez said:I was planning on going, but things fell through. I know a few people from Tehran, though.

That’s a bummer. I was actually interested in hearing about your firsthand experience.

Jessica Gonzalez said:I get that he was a global icon in professional sports. But honestly, how many people actually knew him personally, or how much did his passing truly impact their individual lives? If you didn't hear about it, does it really change anything for you? You can still go on YouTube and watch him play basketball 24/7 for the rest of your life. The athlete version of Kobe Bryant is a brand, and as a brand, he isn't gone. As a person, nobody really knew him—especially not anyone on a forum like this. I see people debating his legal troubles here, but that's exactly my point. People are either defending or attacking someone they don't actually know; they haven't spent a single second with him. All they know is the media persona of a pro athlete. It’s a similar situation with Michael Jackson, though that's been elevated to an entirely different level. Fans end up defending a man they know nothing about privately. Every celebrity, politician, or public figure is just a human being made of flesh and blood, dealing with the same joys and struggles as the rest of us. I see folks on this thread arguing about whether he should have even been in that helicopter, as if our opinions carry any weight at all. I guess just writing RIP Kobe Bryant is enough.

You can't really care about someone if you don't even realize they exist. That's why we don't lose sleep over some random miner in Peru or whoever else—until that moment, we didn't know they were even there, so there's zero emotional connection. That's the difference between them and celebrities we feel like we've "grown up with for 20 years." Honestly, people cry over fictional movies, so it's no surprise they feel for a real person who's been a constant presence in their life, even if it's just through a screen.

There is absolutely zero chance you'll see a woman walking around in a miniskirt in Tehran. It's just not happening there. I mean, sure, I can wear a miniskirt at home, but that’s about it.

Obviously, people living in Tehran are more liberal than folks in the tiny rural towns, but let’s be real—it’s nothing like it is in Europe.

If a woman showed up in a miniskirt there, it would be like walking through a public square here completely naked, jerking off and catcalling women as they pass by. Except, instead of our local exhibitionist getting sent to a psychiatric ward or just slapped with a $300 fine for indecent exposure, a woman in a miniskirt would end up straight in prison.

Everyone I've talked to who has actually been to Iran says the Shia are way more chill than the Gulf states; the people are genuinely kind, hospitable, and you'd actually want to visit Tehran, unlike some of those other spots in the region. It’s pretty ironic that when you look at the stretch from Greece down through North Africa and the Middle East, the only two places left that aren't total chaos—now that Syria and Morocco have been completely torn apart—are Iran and Israel.

I think I see where you're coming from with your perspective and everything you've said. It makes sense that people (somewhat irrationally) get attached to specific individuals, groups, or nations they happen to sympathize with. But, if you think about it, that’s mostly a fiction—kind of a mental projection shaped by the media. For most people on this forum, Kobe Bryant is essentially a fictional character, maybe not much different from someone like Indiana Jones or Batman. It wasn't an NBA superstar who passed away, but rather Kobe Bryant the man—the father, husband, son, and friend. And he was only that to a specific group of people who actually felt his loss personally. To the rest of the world, his life and death are just a spectacle used to trigger certain emotions, similar to how people react to purely fictional movies or novels. Seeing folks on here saying they've been crying for two days because Kobe died... I guess I find that hard to wrap my head around. It seems like a bit of an exaggerated reaction to me.

It's the same way with places like France or Vienna; they might feel culturally close to Americans, but in reality, they aren't that close at all. The media basically decides who matters and who doesn't. For instance, some major news stories that shook the US over the last year—like a six-person homicide in Atlanta or shootings in Miami—barely made any noise in the global news cycle. I don't really believe in mourning every single death or spending 24/7 posting flags on social media; if anything, I tend to feel the opposite. There’s probably no need to post flags or write intense tributes for people we don't know and whose deaths we can't actually impact. Ten or fifteen years ago, before social media really took off, this kind of thing didn't even exist in this format. If there is something you can actually do about an issue, then go ahead and do it. If not, I guess it's better to skip the flag posts on Facebook since it doesn't really change anything. Sometimes I think it helps to step back and try to see the bigger picture, which is rarely just black and white. That's sort of what I try to do in every discussion, even something simple like talking about pets. We live in a world where almost every belief, moral stance, or idea of "normal" is somewhat arbitrary and manufactured. I try not to take rigid stances on anything; most ideological topics are so layered that debating them usually just turns into picking one of two sides. So, if I ever accidentally offend someone, I suppose it's only because I'm trying to prompt a look at things from a different angle. There's hardly any topic where any of us can say for sure that we are 100% right. Whether it's laws, religion, nations, football corruption, or social media...

Jessica Gonzalez said:I think I see where you're coming from with your perspective and everything you've said. It makes sense that people (somewhat irrationally) get attached to specific individuals, groups, or nations they happen to sympathize with. But, if you think about it, that’s mostly a fiction—kind of a mental projection shaped by the media. For most people on this forum, Kobe Bryant is essentially a fictional character, maybe not much different from someone like Indiana Jones or Batman. It wasn't an NBA superstar who passed away, but rather Kobe Bryant the man—the father, husband, son, and friend. And he was only that to a specific group of people who actually felt his loss personally. To the rest of the world, his life and death are just a spectacle used to trigger certain emotions, similar to how people react to purely fictional movies or novels. Seeing folks on here saying they've been crying for two days because Kobe died... I guess I find that hard to wrap my head around. It seems like a bit of an exaggerated reaction to me.

It's the same way with places like France or Vienna; they might feel culturally close to Americans, but in reality, they aren't that close at all. The media basically decides who matters and who doesn't. For instance, some major news stories that shook the US over the last year—like a six-person homicide in Atlanta or shootings in Miami—barely made any noise in the global news cycle. I don't really believe in mourning every single death or spending 24/7 posting flags on social media; if anything, I tend to feel the opposite. There’s probably no need to post flags or write intense tributes for people we don't know and whose deaths we can't actually impact. Ten or fifteen years ago, before social media really took off, this kind of thing didn't even exist in this format. If there is something you can actually do about an issue, then go ahead and do it. If not, I guess it's better to skip the flag posts on Facebook since it doesn't really change anything. Sometimes I think it helps to step back and try to see the bigger picture, which is rarely just black and white. That's sort of what I try to do in every discussion, even something simple like talking about pets. We live in a world where almost every belief, moral stance, or idea of "normal" is somewhat arbitrary and manufactured. I try not to take rigid stances on anything; most ideological topics are so layered that debating them usually just turns into picking one of two sides. So, if I ever accidentally offend someone, I suppose it's only because I'm trying to prompt a look at things from a different angle. There's hardly any topic where any of us can say for sure that we are 100% right. Whether it's laws, religion, nations, football corruption, or social media...

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Mourning Kobe when you never even met him is about as meaningful as paying for a mass in Santa Barbara for Eden.

Look, I’ll give you that. Writing those little tribute posts on Facebook whenever someone kicks the bucket is just way too much. It’s mostly just selfish, honestly. People do it to explain themselves to the world, or—more often than not—just to hike themselves up onto some high horse of moral superiority.

Jessica Gonzalez said:I think I see where you're coming from with your perspective and everything you've said. It makes sense that people (somewhat irrationally) get attached to specific individuals, groups, or nations they happen to sympathize with. But, if you think about it, that’s mostly a fiction—kind of a mental projection shaped by the media. For most people on this forum, Kobe Bryant is essentially a fictional character, maybe not much different from someone like Indiana Jones or Batman. It wasn't an NBA superstar who passed away, but rather Kobe Bryant the man—the father, husband, son, and friend. And he was only that to a specific group of people who actually felt his loss personally. To the rest of the world, his life and death are just a spectacle used to trigger certain emotions, similar to how people react to purely fictional movies or novels. Seeing folks on here saying they've been crying for two days because Kobe died... I guess I find that hard to wrap my head around. It seems like a bit of an exaggerated reaction to me.

It's the same way with places like France or Vienna; they might feel culturally close to Americans, but in reality, they aren't that close at all. The media basically decides who matters and who doesn't. For instance, some major news stories that shook the US over the last year—like a six-person homicide in Atlanta or shootings in Miami—barely made any noise in the global news cycle. I don't really believe in mourning every single death or spending 24/7 posting flags on social media; if anything, I tend to feel the opposite. There’s probably no need to post flags or write intense tributes for people we don't know and whose deaths we can't actually impact. Ten or fifteen years ago, before social media really took off, this kind of thing didn't even exist in this format. If there is something you can actually do about an issue, then go ahead and do it. If not, I guess it's better to skip the flag posts on Facebook since it doesn't really change anything. Sometimes I think it helps to step back and try to see the bigger picture, which is rarely just black and white. That's sort of what I try to do in every discussion, even something simple like talking about pets. We live in a world where almost every belief, moral stance, or idea of "normal" is somewhat arbitrary and manufactured. I try not to take rigid stances on anything; most ideological topics are so layered that debating them usually just turns into picking one of two sides. So, if I ever accidentally offend someone, I suppose it's only because I'm trying to prompt a look at things from a different angle. There's hardly any topic where any of us can say for sure that we are 100% right. Whether it's laws, religion, nations, football corruption, or social media...

I'm 100% with you on this.

Everything checks out, except you can't honestly argue that Vienna or Paris aren't closer to the average American. In every sense of the word, they’re right there.

You take your annual vacation to Paris, wake up in the morning, grab a quick croissant, knock back an espresso, swing by a local betting shop, and run into some guy acting like he's a big shot who got signed by a major club in Groningen for pennies, all while feeling like you just woke up on a Saturday morning in a typical American suburb. 😁

Technically speaking, the distance from the US to Tehran is roughly about the same as the trip from the US to Ponta Delgada.

If we’re strictly talking road trips, I can get to Paris in maybe 15 hours if the highways are decent and I avoid any major conflict zones, whereas trying to drive to Tehran would involve rattling along for days on end. When I'm heading toward Paris, no matter where I stop to refuel or grab a bite, I never really feel like I've stepped into a country that's fundamentally different from home.

A ton of local folks make their living working over in Vienna. And if you head there for Christmas, it feels like you never even left the same country, given how much history we share.

If you spend your time renting out apartments, you’ll end up meeting thousands of Austrians and maybe ten Iranians.