Jason Campbell70 said:Fine, if that's how you want to play it—Kovalainen never once let Hamilton through, McLaren is absolutely flawless, and Coulthard just happened to have his shoe catch in the brake pedal a few times.
BTW
Were you referring to one of the more prominent members here on the forum, including me? 🙂
Champions are remembered, but this will be forgotten just like those events at the same track two years ago.
So, are you actually some kind of tech geek? 🤣 😂 😁
No, Jason, the principle itself isn't okay. I'm just saying that nobody is a thief until they're caught red-handed. In their case, they were caught, repeatedly. As for everyone else, it's all just talk.
Jason Campbell70 said:Who actually cares how they try to mask them? The fact remains they exist, and McLaren (and the McLaren crowd) are trying to slickly convince us there are no team orders, that they have no idea what's happening—all that nonsense.
Besides, regarding the point below, wouldn't someone intentionally crashing into an opponent essentially hand their teammate the title? Oh wait, right. Square. 🙄
I believe that’s the only thing that should be banned.
I see no reason to ban intra-team agreements. It's one of the most absurd—and frankly, most ridiculous—decisions from Elizabeth Hughes, especially given the penalties handed out.
cosmicridge5 said:Kill me now, but I just can't wrap my head around that logic...
How on earth is something that is inherently completely identical—exactly the same—morally wrong MORE MORAL if you just do it subtly?🤣 WTF 🤣
I was messing around with this idea yesterday, but today I’m going to double down: personally, I find it much sleazier to pull all these maneuvers just to "better hide" or camouflage something that is clearly breaking the rules—something we can all see perfectly well is a rule violation—regardless of how well it's disguised. I'd much rather deal with people who don't even bother trying to 😁hide it.
I might even go as far as to say it feels insulting when people try to mask it and expect me to act like everything is "clean" and that there were no team orders at all. Even someone blind could see what's happening, no matter how hard they try to cover it up. It's just annoying when they assume I'm too clueless to notice and try to play games with me.😛 😁😁
There is a distinction here, and I will attempt to explain it: we can speculate that McLaren, Williams, or anyone else employs team orders; people can claim it and be certain, but they don't *know*. But when something like this actually happens, then it becomes a fact. And that knowledge "kills" the sport, the team, and the driver's integrity. Alonso might win the championship now, but he’ll always face the criticism that he couldn't beat his own teammate, and wouldn't have become champion if he hadn't been forced to move out of the way. That doesn't just cast a shadow on the title; it plunges it into total darkness. As for Massa, after this, he can talk all he wants about his form, tire temperature issues, or his ambition and readiness to win, but after yesterday, he's nothing more than a water carrier. Until he moves to another team, nobody will ever take him seriously again. From yesterday onward, his role is simply to fill the grid and look after Fernando Alonso's interests.
Did Button let Hamilton through, or did Hamilton overtake him? If we knew for a fact that he let him through, Button would be no different from Barrichello to Schumacher, Massa to Alonso, or some IT geek serving a powerful leader in a prison cell: just a tool meant to move when things get uncomfortable. But we don't know. We can only assume one way or the other, so Button still maintains some semblance of driver integrity, and Hamilton, if he becomes champion, will have the integrity of a true champion. That is the difference!
I’m sure you all remember how thrilled Alonso seemed just recently when they extended Massa's contract. Well, it turns out that wasn't just coincidence; with that deal, Massa essentially agreed to play his part. Unfortunately, since Ferrari clearly hasn't figured out how to get their actors to deliver a convincing performance, they really should have looked for a number two driver who wouldn't occasionally trip up Alonso. This current setup is easily the worst-case scenario.
McLaren isn't exactly one of my personal favorites among the teams, but they handle team orders with much more subtlety. The way I saw things play out at Ferrari yesterday, or even back in the day during the Austrian GP 2002 when Barrichello had to step aside for Schumacher, was unlike anything I've seen from any other outfit—and I'm not saying it hasn't happened elsewhere, just that I haven't witnessed it firsthand. Someone mentioned the intentional crashes earlier, and sure, we've seen that too, but after that mess, Briatore and Simmonds were essentially purged from the sport, and I didn't feel a shred of sympathy for them. My only regret was that Nelshinho didn't face direct consequences, considering the whole thing was his brainchild.
I absolutely agree that Vettel didn't do this on purpose; it was pure instinct. That said, the move was very much in the style of Schumacher (it’s hardly surprising that Jason Campbell70 is defending him 😁). As for his later stint with Ferrari, I’m honestly speechless... But it goes to show exactly why I, someone who appreciates many different teams, can't stand just one...
Betty Moore34 said:And why on earth wouldn't Massa have a chance in this race? The man finally delivered a legitimate result during qualifying, so why shouldn't he go after Alonso? Don't let Massa catch you off guard today.😉
Betty Moore34 said:If Alonso suffers even a slightly subpar start, Massa absolutely needs to make his move immediately rather than just sitting there waiting around, which would only hand an opening straight to Webber. We’ll see how things shake out in the end, though I personally want to see Massa prove he actually has some tactical grit in him.
Unlike at Red Bull or McLaren, where the hierarchy between drivers feels like a complete mystery, things work differently over at Ferrari. If Massino were to attempt an overtake on Alonso, it would likely be viewed as nothing short of an act of aggression. I highly doubt he’d even dare to try it, unless Alonso was clearly struggling with his car.
To touch on that point: anyone who has followed F1 since the days when Schumacher ran Ferrari won't be surprised that Massa had to step aside for Alonso yesterday. I’m not saying it’s right or smart; it’s just how they've always operated. No matter how much I criticize Red Bull for their inability to manage a team and throwing away points, I'll always respect them more than teams that don't even pretend to be sporting.
On another note—how are people (especially the folks over at stormybadger8) reacting to Vettel's start and him shoving Alonso into the wall? There are way too many pages to sift through, but if Webber had done that, he would have been branded a lunatic attempting to murder a colleague. I just hope the kid doesn't get a better pass, despite his habit of smoking.😁
stormybadger8 said:Easy for you to say. The real problem is if he surprises Alonso.😬
Exactly...
Unlike at Red Bull or McLaren, where the hierarchy between drivers feels like a complete mystery, things work differently over at Ferrari. If Massino were to attempt an overtake on Alonso, it would likely be viewed as nothing short of an act of aggression. I highly doubt he’d even dare to try it, unless Alonso was clearly struggling with his car.
If we get hit with non-stop rain, the podium could go to anyone in that lead pack. But if the weather stays unpredictable—the kind of chaos that demands sharp tactics, a level head, and steady hands—Jensen might just pull it off. On another note, I’d honestly love to see Alonso take the win just to shake up the championship race, but I can't help feeling like he'll succumb to that usual mental meltdown and mess it all up again.
Which kid is going to bring us Formula 1? If we had actually fought for something like that back in the 90s, sure, that would have been great. But now, when even places like Monaco, Silverstone, and Canada can barely afford to pay Berni's tribute, I’d much rather just take a trip to a neighboring state once a year than watch our own corrupt, debt-ridden system sink itself into something similar. I can already see how it would play out: if Kalmet's ministry were the one handing out the contracts, a single racetrack would end up costing as much as a gold-plated Olympic stadium.
Amanda Kelly said:Is this someone's deliberate move just to stir up more drama and keep things moving?
When you say "viewers," are we talking about people just buying Red Bull, or actual fans?
It takes two to tango, and I haven't seen Vettel even stepping onto the dance floor lately.
Wrong on both counts. 🙂 A war only needs one person to start; regardless of what anyone else does, the conflict is inevitable. Vettel simply veers off course whenever he feels his teammate isn't playing their part as a proper number two driver. 😁
Regardless, I suspect this should be Vettel's race to lose, because he’s currently teetering on the edge of letting Webber humiliate him even worse than Hamilton did to Alonso back in 2007. I actually cast my vote for him over on Pit Pass. 👍
Amanda Kelly said:Doesn't look like an ideal track for Red Bull to me. It feels more like a McLaren setup.
As for those podium predictions of yours... I hope they stay as far from the podium as possible. When things go that way, it usually gives us something actually worth talking about.
And I don't know, Amanda. It seems like almost every track this year has played right into Red Bull's hands, which makes me a bit pessimistic about anyone actually outrunning them in terms of pure pace. On the bright side, I am cautiously optimistic that they might just pull some sort of brilliant, innovative act of self-sabotage out of nowhere. 😁
Pitpass is giving away a 1:4 scale replica of the Mercedes steering wheel: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=41489
To enter the giveaway, all you have to do is call the winner of GP Germany. They'll be picking the winners from the pool of people who actually get the prediction right.
I can't quite put my finger on why, but I have this nagging feeling that Mercedes might actually pull off something decent this race. It’s probably delusional, but intuition doesn't always need a logical basis. 😁
It’s a safe bet that Red Bull will be the class of the field, but given the increasing likelihood of them tearing each other apart in a sibling rivalry, they might just leave a window open for McLaren or Ferrari to make a dent. Honestly, if Fernando Alonso doesn't grab a win soon, he might just check himself into a clinic in Chicago out of pure frustration.
I’d love to see Robert Kubica, Jenson Button, and Mark Webber at the post-race press conference. Actually, if we could get Kamui Kobayashi in there too, he could probably fill in for any of them. :S
I’m firmly of the opinion that Webber is a significantly more capable and well-rounded driver than Mass, though I’ll concede the possibility that I’m being biased—I’ve never been one to pretend Mass was ever my kind of driver. Regardless, it’s obvious this move makes very little sense for Ferrari. If Webber isn't actually an upgrade over Mass, then why swap a younger driver for an older one? On the other hand, if he is superior—which is my own take—you risk making a sensitive driver like Alonso feel a bit less welcome within the team structure.
Whether it’s explicitly stated or just implied, it doesn't really change the math: Massa isn't even in the same league as Alonso, so this issue is a non-starter. In my view, the smartest move would be for Webber and Massa to swap seats next season. If they make Vettel the clear number one, Ferrari can finally let that chassis carry them to a team championship.
Mark is talking nonsense. After that collision between Vettel and Webber, he showed exactly how "objective" he can be, and now he’s back at it again. If they were actual heavyweights, they would have just told Webber straight up that he was the number two driver, and this whole mess wouldn't have happened. Instead, they held out hope that Vettel would eventually pull ahead enough to make such a distinction unnecessary—much like how things work over at Ferrari or Renault. To their shock, not only hasn't Vettel improved enough this season, he simply isn't better. Now they’re facing a massive crossroads regarding their future strategy: will they stick to the tired mantra of having two drivers who are allowed to race each other while secretly finding ways to signal their true intentions, or will they just go out and hire a Brazilian to fill that second seat?
Word on the street is that Buemi is currently on the chopping block at Renault, and we’ve already suspected he might be a fit for Red Bull. He’s suddenly become quite the hot commodity, and passing up an opportunity with STR could be a massive blunder if he ends up blowing his chances with everyone else...
Check this out: http://www.planet-f1.com/news/18227/...iminal-damage-
Ron Dennis snuck up on Edie Jordan while she was interviewing Horner for the BBC and yanked his microphone wires, just laughing at him afterward. Of course, Jordan lost her cool immediately and demanded the BBC sue Dennis.
If only this sport weren't such a total circus. 😂 🤣
Look, folks, you can't just label everyone who disagrees with you an Alonso hater. I’ll be the first to admit I’m not exactly a huge fan of Ferrari, but Fernando Alonso spent years at Renault, and for some reason, I still feel a sense of loyalty toward him. Sure, I call him a whiner—but he’s been that way forever. He won the championship back in 2006, and even then, he was busy tearing into his own team toward the end of the season just to cover his tracks when things weren't going his way...
But this specific situation isn't about personality. It's basic racing logic: if you overtake by cutting a corner, you have to give the position back. If they felt Robert Kubica made an illegal move, they should have just taken it to the stewards and let them hand out a penalty. Instead, they decided to "balance the scales" by offsetting Kubica's supposed error with Alonso's illegal maneuver. Where does that leave the sport? If every driver starts trying to mathematically compensate for someone else's mistakes on the track, the whole thing falls apart. At the end of the day, when an official authority tells you three times straight that you messed up and need to yield to avoid a penalty, ignoring them is just plain foolish. You can't act surprised when the hammer finally drops. 🤷