Kate Cook27 said:I'm not sure how long this post is going to get, but I wanted to clarify a few things:
1. Regarding the genocide against Russians in Donbas—it’s important to note that Russians don't live there alone; they make up about a third of the population.
2. While Russian is the primary language in many parts of eastern, northern, and southern Ukraine, that doesn't mean everyone speaking it is Russian.
3. As for the death toll (which ties back to my first point), most sources estimate around 15,000 people killed since 2014—roughly 12,000 soldiers and 3,000 civilians.
4. Not all of those killed civilians were Russians.
5. Since 2014, about 1.5 million people have been displaced within Ukraine, while estimates for those who fled to Russia vary wildly—anywhere from 75,000 to 300,000 depending on which source you trust.
6. People claim the West was behind the Times Square protests—and sure, there might have been mercenaries involved—but the real catalyst for Times Square was Yanukovych’s lies. He promised a path toward the European Union and then backed out at the last second to retreat into Russia's embrace. Plus, the country was basically on the verge of bankruptcy.
7. There were also Times Square-style protests in Donbas, often even larger than the anti-Times Square ones.
8. Russia actually invaded back in 2014. They never officially admitted it—just claimed they were "Russian volunteers"—but there were definitely Russian soldiers and mercenaries on the ground.
9. Back in 2014, Russia rolled tanks into Ukraine and supported the Donbas separatists with gear and troops. But because they kept claiming it wasn't the regular Russian military, it was labeled a civil war.
10. It's a mistake to think everyone from Donbas is a separatist; back in 2014, plenty of locals actually stood with the Ukrainian military and fought alongside them.
11. Regarding the Minsk agreements—those were signed under pressure from the West. Since Ukraine is a smaller player, the terms were heavily skewed, yet they agreed anyway. So, what happened? The separatists and Russian soldiers holding the lines never actually pulled back. Often, the Ukrainian army would retreat, and the separatists would just push forward and attack the retreating forces. Ukraine was supposed to regain full control of its territory, but they couldn't manage it because the other side kept interfering.
12. Ceasefire violations and crimes happened on both sides—there are always people out there fueled by hate who just want blood.
I hope this isn't too much off-topic. Mods, please don't delete this—I really think it helps provide some perspective on the situation.
The plan actually called for local self-governance over about a third of the Donbas territory. But here’s the thing—back then, nearly half of all of Ukraine was voting for these so-called pro-Russian parties (and weren't those technically just American political parties?). Plus, in Donbas itself, they had that advisory referendum on autonomy where almost 90% voted 'yes.' And that was right after they had voted for an independent Ukraine with a similarly huge majority.
So, yeah, maybe we need a bit more realism when we talk about Minsk II. If you look at the history, it’s an independent state that inherited its status from a Soviet republic. Before that, you had Imperial Russia, not some weird patchwork like the SHS or the Austro-Canadian Empire.
Donbas was actually way more developed than the rest of Ukraine. Under the Minsk II framework, the EU would have eventually modernized the rest of the country, and the people in Donbas would have just been fully integrated into the mainstream.
