Posts by stormybadger8

graniteharbor502 said:Let me simplify this for you. Max started from the best available position. Once you can show me a photo proving someone else started from a better position, then perhaps I will take the rest of your text seriously.

The entire point of this discussion is that the rule as it was written is open to interpretation. Now that we have clarified it, what is being referred to is quite obvious.

It doesn't change anything for this one, but personally, I wasn't credited with 4 points in Monaco.🙄

Alright, are we guessing at "best position" or talking about Pole position?
Because in some races, P2 or even P3 is technically the "best" spot on the grid... since the guy in P1 has zero slipstream and usually gets eaten alive in the first corner right after the start. 🙂

So what, are we just going to call P2 the "best position" now? 🙂

You're basically reinventing the wheel here...
Leclerc started the race from Pole position (he did the formation lap), but he wasn't actually on the starting grid itself, so sure, that's a bit of a gray area when deciding whether to count him...
But there is absolutely no way to credit Max, because it makes zero sense—Max didn't start from the position labeled as Pole position.
Even though it’s irrelevant to this specific argument—since while that Monaco situation is somewhat debatable, this Bottas-Hamilton thing isn't at all—
the grid was set in stone before the start. Bottas was P1 on the actual grid, and everyone knew long before qualifying that Hamilton had no chance at Pole. I don't get why people are overcomplicating this.

The old rule was crystal clear. Nobody could interpret it any other way unless they were just whining because they didn't like the results and wanted to play philosopher...
Honestly, this new complication is just going to confuse new fans. They'll be sitting there wondering if everyone knows what "Final Starting Grid" means, where to find the document, and all that nonsense...
On the flip side, "the driver who starts from the best position" is something you grasp when you're three years old. ☕

graniteharbor502 said:No, I don't think so. The issue arises because point number two states:
2. The championship is conducted such that a participant must publish their predicted ranking of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe, based on how they believe the race will conclude, along with two additional categories: the driver who starts from the best grid position and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race.

During the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen started from the best grid position.

Furthermore, if we look at point eleven:
If a participant includes a driver who does not actually appear in the race—meaning they are not found on the official FIA results (the entry list for a specific race)—then no points will be awarded for that selection.

However, vividlynx68 was awarded points for Leclerc even though he didn't show up in the race.

To make a long story short, the rule isn't clearly articulated. This is especially problematic given that the only authoritative document refers to the "results published by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings)."

🤦

Oh, sure, whatever you say...
At the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen actually started from P2...
You can try to play philosopher about how Max started and spin circles all day, but anyone with eyes can see exactly where Max Verstappen's car was sitting...

graniteharbor502 said:He didn't even start from pole position, so can you see the kind of complications I am referring to here? Given how this rule currently functions in the sport, don't you think it really requires some fine-tuning?

Yeah, the Pole position went to Leclerc. ☕
Just look at the photos of that start...
Leclerc's spot on the grid was left empty; they didn't just bump someone else into his place, the slot stayed vacant.

Why?
Because Leclerc was the one supposed to take Pole, and the Pole position was his. ☕

graniteharbor502 said:No, I don't think so. The issue arises because point number two states:
2. The championship is conducted such that a participant must publish their predicted ranking of all drivers on the grid within the designated timeframe, based on how they believe the race will conclude, along with two additional categories: the driver who starts from the best grid position and the driver who secures the fastest lap of the race.

During the Monaco GP, Max Verstappen started from the best grid position.

Furthermore, if we look at point eleven:
If a participant includes a driver who does not actually appear in the race—meaning they are not found on the official FIA results (the entry list for a specific race)—then no points will be awarded for that selection.

However, vividlynx68 was awarded points for Leclerc even though he didn't show up in the race.

To make a long story short, the rule isn't clearly articulated. This is especially problematic given that the only authoritative document refers to the "results published by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings)."

How do you manage to cram so many inaccuracies into a single post? 🤦
Leclerc showed up to the race, Leclerc was on the entry list, and Leclerc is listed in the final standings...
Stop overcomplicating things that don't need explaining...

Everything you wrote regarding Monaco is completely, utterly detached from reality...
And as far as the rulebook goes, it’s crystal clear: Leclerc took Pole at the Monaco GP. There isn't enough linguistic gymnastics in the world to put anyone else in that spot in Monaco...
Maybe in some freak accident scenario you could argue there's no PP, but even in my wildest dreams is that PP ever going to be Max's? ☕

And seriously, what part of the rulebook is confusing here???
It’s stated crystal clear: the results published by the FIA immediately after the race ends (the preliminary standings)
What exactly is so hard to grasp???
After the RACE ends. The Race, not qualifying.

graniteharbor502 said:Who, then, held the Pole position at the Monaco Grand Prix this year?

"Pole-sitter" is just short for "pole position sitter." It refers to the person who secured the pole position.

I don't see what part of Charles Leclerc is confusing here. 🤔

graniteharbor502 said:Perhaps the category itself was simply poorly titled, given that I—along with many others, I suspect—have always operated under the assumption that we were predicting the first place finisher during qualifying. Is it not in the best interest of the entire sport that we all share a clear, unambiguous understanding of what exactly we are predicting? Until now, my interpretation was that we were looking at the FIA standings following qualifying. It would perhaps be wise to rename the category to "1st Place on the Starting Grid" to ensure total clarity.

That's actually exactly what it's called...
because being first on the grid is Pole position ☕
The Pole position Pole-sitter is whoever wins qualifying; nobody ever calls them "pole position."

As for the championship, the rules make it crystal clear. This whole thing is a game where you predict race results, not qualifying results. ☕
So, naturally, you only look at the actual race...
That’s why we write that Lewis Hamilton won the Democratic Party, not that he won qualifying.

I don't get why anyone is surprised.
It feels totally ridiculous to me that I’m actually scoring points for Lewis Hamilton's imaginary Pole position—and I only have him in my picks because I forgot to submit a new one...
If I had actually submitted a fresh prediction for the Democratic Party, it could have been absolutely anyone other than Lewis Hamilton or Carlos Sainz Jr.☕

graniteharbor502 said:The real trouble you're facing there is the lack of an official document you can actually lean on; if you look at the official race results, there simply isn't any data provided regarding the starting positions.

Well, you have these among the official docs...
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...ing%20Grid.pdf

https://www.fia.com/events/fia-formu...ng-information

I don't see the problem here.
For crying out loud, the menu explicitly states that the final starting grid is an "official document."🤣

graniteharbor502 said:If you are looking for the qualifying results, one simply consults the official preliminary standings provided by the FIA. Is there really any ambiguity to be found there?



It is stated quite clearly who made the PP.

It doesn't say "who," it says who won qualifying—meaning who grabbed the pole positionlap, basically the fastest lap...
And pole position is the spot you start the race from.😉
Pole position isn't a driver, a person, or whatever else; it's a grid position.

Let me recap this for you:
What specifically ispole position?

graniteharbor502 said:Rule 13.
The competition results are calculated based strictly on the official results released by the FIA immediately following the conclusion of the race (the preliminary standings).

Look, I don't really care...
But if I recall correctly, the pole position is an exception.
The rule itself is pretty clear, and Valtteri Bottas has the pole....
I think this was settled ages ago, maybe back at the Monaco Grand Prix 2012 or something like that, if my memory serves. 🤔
Basically, Michael Schumacher took qualifying, but someone else started from pole...

And it seems like that applied even to the Tournament.
For the championship, the logic is crystal clear; the championship has always been a competition where they look exclusively at the F1 race itself...
As far as he's concerned, Free Practice, qualifying, all that stuff doesn't exist...
So, it actually makes perfect sense to look at the actual pole, not just the qualifying results...

1. Valtteri Bottas
2. Perez
3. Leclerc
4. Lando Norris
5. Carlos Sainz
6. Max Verstappen
7. Vettel and Gasly
8. Gasly
9. Ricciardo
10. Fernando Alonso
11. Lance Stroll
12. Ocon
13. Russian
14. RAI
15. GIO
16. Nicholas Latifi

Monaco Grand Prix Lewis Hamilton
Monaco Grand Prix Tsunoda
Monaco Grand Prix
Monaco Grand Prix Mazepin

Pit Stop Lewis Hamilton
Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen

1. Hamilton
2. Verstappen
3. Bottas
4. Perez
5. Leclerc
6. Norris
7. Sainz
8. Vettel
9. Gasly
10. Stroll
11. Alonso
12. Ricciardo
13. Ocon
14. Russian
15. Kubica
16. Giovinazzi
17. Latifi

MSC NOP TSU
NOP MSC 20.
NOP MAZ

PP Hamilton
FL Hamilton

Sam Clark75 said:Maybe—but honestly, I doubt he pulls it off this season.

Why would that be such a big question mark?

Sure, Bottas might be an issue—he lacks the drive and the pace to actually help with a title fight now that they've dropped him...
but at the end of the day, Mercedes still has the raw speed and the engineering brains to snatch those championships...

On the flip side, Max is still pretty green. The real question is how he handles the pressure when things get intense in the final races. Maybe he stays cool, maybe he just cruises through it, but there's always a chance he cracks like Hamilton did back in 2007...

James Harris34 said:Red Bull definitely has the fastest car on the grid this year, but I'm calling it now: Mercedes is taking the Constructors' Championship again, and Hamilton will naturally grab his eighth driver's title too.

So I guess Toto Wolff is just straight-up lying when he claims there’s zero difference in pace between Mercedes and Red Bull. 🙂
I mean, we’re used to Toto exaggerating how fast the competition is—it’s practically his brand. Honestly, the guy was once terrified of being outpaced by an Alfa Romeo. 🤣

But acting like the competition is actually *weaker* than it really is? Now that’s a fresh twist. 🤣

mellowtiger83 said:Tell your friend he’s overreaching with that comparison. Perez is sitting in a car that is easily a full second faster than Vettel’s, let alone compared to the backmarkers he’s slicing through.

Vettel simply couldn't manage it; he tried to force the pace until he spun out. Even Stroll couldn't mount an attack against a Williams in that exact same machinery.

Is Perez a good driver? Certainly, given he's in F1. But once they paired him up next to Max Verstappen, his perceived talent level took a hit.

Yeah, I get it...
It's wild how much timing can absolutely wreck a race strategy...

Vettel’s car was noticeably slower than Perez’s. In clean air during that stretch, Perez was consistently about 1 to 1.3 seconds faster per lap than Vettel...
At that moment, Perez was tearing it up, hitting fastest laps back-to-back...

Even Perez struggled for a couple of laps behind Nikita Mazepin before passing him, and then Vettel caught up two laps later.
Vettel was right on his tail, within 0.1 sec 😳—he could have forced a pass if he hadn't been pushing so hard just to stay alive...
But he didn't go for it, and immediately after, Max comes through, then Lewis, then Valtteri, and only then does Vettel finally clear Mazepin.

By letting that trio go, Vettel’s entire strategy went straight down the drain. If he had pushed harder or ignored those blue flags, he might have held onto that 20-second gap to Lando Norris. At best, he would've stayed ahead, and honestly, he probably could have picked off Nazzi, Ricciardo, Stroll, Tsunoda, and Russell right through the pits...
And given his actual pace, he likely would've closed that gap to Norris way more than 20 seconds.

Instead, he dropped about ten seconds to that group. By the time they all pitted, they all came out right in front of him—just enough to leave him in the dust.

Raymond Anderson4 said:Did Sergio Perez make a mistake at the start? It felt like he dropped back a notch at one point. Still, it was a solid drive from him considering how tough it is to overtake on this track.
Max was incredible, and Lewis Hamilton was right there with him, constantly putting pressure on the Red Bull Racing pit wall.

Pierre Gasly had a predictably great race. For him, the secret to consistency over these last three races has been crushing qualifying—getting the heavy lifting done on Saturday so he can just close it out on Sunday.

Fernando Alonso looked great, while Esteban Ocon seemed to struggle with how slow Alonso was during the opening laps.

Perez actually ended up with great tactics because he was smart enough not to burn his tires out early...
Vettel played it the same way, pitting early while the guys ahead got stuck in a train...

You've got guys in 1st and 2nd putting in laps 2-3 seconds faster than the pack in front.
And then they run straight into Nikita Mazepin and Nicholas Latifi...

That’s where it counts. Perez managed to clear them relatively fast, but unfortunately, Vettel couldn't even get past Nikita in time...

Then Max, Lewis, and Valtteri came charging through, forcing him to move under blue flags, which completely trashed his strategy.🤦
If he'd cleared the traffic, he would've cruised into points easily, because with that stint, they actually caught everyone up to Carlos Sainz.
The gap between Vettel and Lando Norris was about 20 seconds, right before the pit stops and before Max arrived...
Basically, everyone in that order would have likely come out behind Vettel after the pits, but screw it, he missed the chance to pass Nikita in time and then bled about 10 seconds over the next few laps.🤦
Perez didn't get stuck; he just bolted ahead, and that's why he finished in the points.

WTF 😵

No penalties for the Haas drivers
No penalty for Max

What happened to the refs? Since when did they actually act normal? 🤔
Did they hire someone new or is it just some kid playing judge?
Seriously, I don’t get why they’ve suddenly started using their brains instead of just burying their heads in the rulebook and handing out stupid penalties for nonsense things that drivers have zero control over...

And this whole Vettel vs Haas thing is interesting...
Vettel clearly wasn't looking for those kids to be penalized; if anything, he was probably asking for a little common sense so they wouldn't get hit 👍
The penalty doesn't even make much sense anyway, because Vettel was going to smash into that pack regardless...
If anyone messed up here, it was the Aston Martin strategist who sent him right into the middle of the chaos, leaving him stuck in the wrong place at the worst possible time...

James Kern2 said:Sebastian Vettel’s engine went up in flames during FP1... they had a red flag hanging over the session for ages while they dealt with the fire. Does anyone have the scoop on the damage?

https://i.redd.it/3z5dd60hf9l71.jpg

vividwalker13 said:At the end of the day, it was Vettel who really stepped up to settle things...

I mean, they definitely have plenty of experience from the Red Bull days. 😁
If anyone actually mastered putting out fires with a fire extinguisher, it’d be Vettel. 🤣

1. Hamilton
2. Max Verstappen
3. Valtteri Bottas
4. Perez 3rd, Leclerc
5. Leclerc
6. Norris 5th, Sainz
7. Sainz
8. Vettel
9. Gasly 7th, Vettel
10. Stroll 12th.
11. Fernando Alonso
12. Daniel Ricciardo
13. Esteban Ocon
14. Russ
15. RAI
16. GIO
17. LAT

NOP Yuki Tsunoda
NOP Monaco GP NOP
NOP Mazepin NOP

Kimi, Max, Hamilton, Bottas
Hamilton

urbanfox said:He took the job, so he gets paid for it. It’s not easy, but it's his responsibility. I get it—no decision is ever simple, and everything comes with a downside. But his job is to find the best path forward and own it. I'd much rather see them walk away from a few bucks to keep their integrity than suck up to sponsors for a pile of cash that's basically pocket change in the world of Formula 1. They might take some heat now, but history will remember him with respect instead of shame.

This could get ugly fast...
Under this new leadership, Formula 1 has managed to pull off the worst possible moves for the die-hard fans, all because they’re too busy catering to the casual crowd that barely even watches the sport 🙄
And if those hardcore fans actually lose their minds, their entire business model goes straight down the drain...

Just look at the absolute circus they pulled off in Australia 🤦
One minute we're ready to race, the next there's a crowd outside looking like idiots, and then thirty minutes before lights out, someone screams "COVID-19" and everyone loses their minds and cancels the race, despite tens of thousands of people standing right there waiting...

Now we have this mess at Indianapolis Motor Speedway, where the real fans showed up only to get slapped in the face the moment the gates opened...

I doubt a full-blown boycott is coming, though. You can step on the toes of true fans indefinitely and they'll just keep taking it...
But hey, it’s not impossible that they finally snap...
There were way too many consecutive cancellations lately (with zero refunds, by the way) that everyone just swallowed, and now this...
The tension is building, and the guy in charge seems completely incapable of making a call, constantly flipping through the rulebook looking for an excuse to either open the tap or shut it...

Richard Ross11 said:I mean, it’s pretty obvious why they pushed it to 3:00 PM.
Being in Texas, I'm dealing with a 7-hour difference, so the race starts at 8:00 AM for me.
I wouldn't have minded a 7:00 AM start, but not everyone lives on my schedule. 🙂
The new owners just want to make a buck... nothing surprising there.

It all sounds great on paper, but this stuff has serious consequences. You end up with unsustainable races because everything is a total mess and you deal with these kinds of ridiculous headaches...

God, I'd move to Texas in a heartbeat if it meant every race started at noon European time. 🙏
That would be my perfect 5:00 AM. 😁
Suzuka, Suzuka, Suuuuzuuuuka! Every single weekend. 🙏🤣

James Harris34 said:Sure, they could have raced. Like Martin Brundle said, he’s driven in way worse conditions. Honestly, after that Bianchi accident, everyone's just too terrified to take a risk. They don't get that just stepping onto the track is a massive gamble. If Grosjean had died in that crash last year, he would’ve been just as responsible as Bianchi was. If someone doesn't want to drive, they should just do what Niki Lauda did back in '76 and call it a day.

It's not like anyone actually asks the drivers what they think.🙂
They can blather on the team radio all they want—depending on whether they want a red flag, a Safety Car, or a standing start—but it doesn't change anything.
If Moss tells them to drive, they’re going to drive.☕
Whether they whine or cry over the radio along the way is irrelevant; they'll still be out there.

Has anyone ever actually pulled off the side or decided to just spontaneously pit because it started raining or got dark? 🤔

The call rests with Moss, and he's the one left holding the bag if things go south. With today's laws, he might even face criminal charges if someone gets hurt...
A driver is a driver. They can refuse to drive if they feel like it, then we'll see if their team actually gives them the green light or not...

Raymond Anderson4 said:Like Lewis Hamilton says, money talks. They can't move the race start earlier because the cash won't allow it, and they can't push it later because the money won't allow that either.
God forbid we move the race two hours earlier just to stop the TV networks from throwing a fit. Oh no, heaven forbid! We planned on starting at 3 PM, and if we move it to 1 PM, what are the sponsors going to say? "Hey, our commercials aren't airing at the prime slot!" Total disaster.

The core issue with this whole mess is that ridiculous 3 PM start—or even worse, those 3:10 PM nonsense slots...🙄
Whoever came up with that was a complete moron who totally screwed the pooch.

We’ve dealt with plenty of crappy situations since then, but this latest one proves just how stupid that 3 PM rule actually is.

If the race had started at 2 PM, it would have actually started.
If it had been pouring rain at 2 PM, there’d be a way better chance of actually getting things done and holding the race.
This 3 PM stupidity is peak incompetence. Every single time there's a delay, you end up with a total clusterfuck where everything falls apart toward the end of the race, leaving you with zero visibility regardless of whether it's raining or not...

If these geniuses were actually going to mess with the schedule, it would’ve been much smarter to move it to 1 PM or even noon. That way you’d actually have time to follow the rulebook without rushing.
Instead, while they're busy acting smart, it gets dark and everything goes to hell.